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No, I cried for you, B. I know how much pain you will feel when you discover that UM stands for Ultimate Everybody Except The Cleric.
I champion the Cleric because I think Paizo really dropped the ball there but I actually like all the Divine Classes pretty well. But that's not really what this is about. Im not really hearing much of anything here or other threads about the Oracle, the Ranger (besides a trapper?), Bard, or whatever.
I champion the Cleric because I think Paizo really dropped the ball there but I actually like all the Divine Classes pretty well. But that's not really what this is about. Im not really hearing much of anything here or other threads about the Oracle, the Ranger (besides a trapper?), Bard, or whatever.
No, I cried for you, B. I know how much pain you will feel when you discover that UM stands for Ultimate Everybody Except The Cleric.
I got a peek (more like an obsessive couple of minutes) at a friend's PDF -- I got to say I like some of what the bard got.
The magus archetypes really set well with me too, and the sorcerer... well he could be an interesting little devil now -- his options (in my opinion) are now about where the oracle's are.
The Monk has some neat love in that new archetype -- not sure how all to use that yet but I know I'll enjoy tinkering with it.
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So, the impression I am getting is it is not actually the Ultimate Magic, at all. More along the lines of Ultimate Sorcerer/Wizard and Magus, with some Inquisitor thrown in. Is that more or less correct?You really enjoy trying to be Betty Downer don't you?No, Im actually curious. All I hear of the book so far really just relates to them, basically, with a little hate for the Cloistered Cleric, and not sure of the Monk with Vow of Poverty.
The impression I am getting, (which means it may not be true) is that there really are not many spells, no PCs, many of the Archtypes are so-so, etc, and i am just wanting honest evaluations and not a general magic book that is primarily Arcane.
Knowing you no matter what we will write your conclusion will be that Cleric got shafted. :)
OK, I'll take a bite.
CLERIC
40ish Variant Channeling abilites
4 archetypes
several new feats that Cleric can qualify for
70ish Cleric spells
Now, if you want precise spoilers - buy the book (or wait until it pops up at d20pfsrd).
What about the Metal/ Wood Wizard Schools?
What about new Polymorph spells?
What about the Metal/ Wood Wizard Schools?
What about new Polymorph spells?
And are there any other new Schools/Focuses?
What about the Metal/ Wood Wizard Schools?
What about new Polymorph spells?
And are there any other new Schools/Focuses?
Not that I can see. But, there are 6 new descriptors:
Curse
Disease
Emotion
Pain
Poison
Shadow
This will sound weird, but this is actually one of my favorite new things about this book. I have long felt that there was a need for curse and shadow descriptors.
I am also loving the spellblights and having detailed binding outsider and construct rules, though I haven't read them in depth yet.
Shadow
Not new.
Not new.
Shadow
"Shadow is a new spell descriptor created for this book."
-Ultimate Magic page 138Until now, shadow has been a subschool of the Illusion school, not a descriptor. Now it is both.
Not new.
Shadow
"Shadow is a new spell descriptor created for this book."
-Ultimate Magic page 138Until now, shadow has been a subschool of the Illusion school, not a descriptor. Now it is both.
That seems...sloppy to me.
That seems...sloppy to me.Not new.
Shadow
"Shadow is a new spell descriptor created for this book."
-Ultimate Magic page 138Until now, shadow has been a subschool of the Illusion school, not a descriptor. Now it is both.
From a game design perspective it is a very neat and tidy thing.
From a game design perspective it is a very neat and tidy thing.That seems...sloppy to me.Not new.
Shadow
"Shadow is a new spell descriptor created for this book."
-Ultimate Magic page 138Until now, shadow has been a subschool of the Illusion school, not a descriptor. Now it is both.
And from a player and GM perspective, it can be a cause of confusion.
What about the Metal/ Wood Wizard Schools?
What about new Polymorph spells?
I haven't read the polymorph spells yet.
Metal school adds some spells to your spell list, your spells deal extra damage to creatures made of metal or wearing metal armor, you gain an AC bonus, and you gain a limited exploding shrapnel attack.
Wood school adds some spells to your spell list, grants periodic increases to your Dex, Con, or Wis as you level up, gives you a spear attack that hurls itself and causes ongoing bleed damage to the target as it splinters, and grants an ability that lets allies nearby to use your saving throw when you use it.
The metal and wood wizard schools opens the door for traditional Asian elemental relationships. Instead of the traditional crucible elemental relationship in the west (fire and water oppose each other and air and earth oppose each other) you can get the wheel relationship used in Asia (wood overcomes earth, earth overcomes water, water overcomes fire, fire overcomes metal, and metal overcomes wood). In this new system, your opposition school must be the school for the element that overcomes your element's school. So, if I choose the metal elemental school, my opposing school must be fire.
Just to push the buttons and send some of the people into little green eyed monster mode...
My hard copy of UM arrived today. :) Artwork is awesome. :)
The PDFs just really aren't the same as being able to thumb through it.
And from a player and GM perspective, it can be a cause of confusion.From a game design perspective it is a very neat and tidy thing.That seems...sloppy to me.Not new.
Shadow
"Shadow is a new spell descriptor created for this book."
-Ultimate Magic page 138Until now, shadow has been a subschool of the Illusion school, not a descriptor. Now it is both.
I really can't see how. The number of times I have seen a player or DM care about what subschool a spell is from at the gaming table is almost 0. I have only ever really seen it come up at character creation and even then it is rare.
I really can't see how. The number of times I have seen a player or DM care about what subschool a spell is from at the gaming table is almost 0. I have only ever really seen it come up at character creation and even then it is rare.
Never questioning the difference between a glamer spell and a figment spell is a failing of your group.
What's the difference between a shadow spell and a shadow spell? Get's confusing pretty fast when it does come up.
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I really can't see how. The number of times I have seen a player or DM care about what subschool a spell is from at the gaming table is almost 0. I have only ever really seen it come up at character creation and even then it is rare.Never questioning the difference between a glamer spell and a figment spell is a failing of your group.
What's the difference between a shadow spell and a shadow spell? Get's confusing pretty fast when it does come up.
Only if there *is* a difference, and from what I can see, there almost never is. There only appears to be a single [shadow] spell that is not also "illusion (shadow)" and it is still an illusion spell. So I wouldn't worry about it too much.
As a sidebar, though, it looks like we were also deprived of a shadow-based teleportation spell, shadow step - it appears on several classes' spell lists, but isn't in the book beyond that.
I really can't see how. The number of times I have seen a player or DM care about what subschool a spell is from at the gaming table is almost 0. I have only ever really seen it come up at character creation and even then it is rare.Never questioning the difference between a glamer spell and a figment spell is a failing of your group.
What's the difference between a shadow spell and a shadow spell? Get's confusing pretty fast when it does come up.
It's not a failing if the DM brings it up when pertinent without us ever having to bring it up ourselves. We ask when an ability lets us ask what school a type of magic is and he tells us subschools when we should know.
Anyway, in the case of shadow, the descriptor so far is only applied to shadow subschool spells. So, it really won't be confusing for anyone. The reason I believe that having it is a good thing is because Paizo is designing more and more abilities and feats that rely on having those descriptors such as the new feat Flaring Spell that applies to spells with the fire, light, or electricity descriptor.
I can see Paizo laying groundwork here for the design of future abilities in spells, archetypes, prestige classes, and abilities for both PCs and monsters. If they want to create a flavorful feat or ability that allows a someone to get a bonus to DC or to resist spells of the shadow subschool, darkness descriptor, and fear descriptor it would take up a larger word count and seem inelegant as it doesn't all fit the mechanical theme of the ability. However, calling it out as darkness, shadow, and fear descriptors really helps keep it all straight and elegant. I know it might not seem like anything important to you, but to many others it can be easier to remember.
As a sidebar, though, it looks like we were also deprived of a shadow-based teleportation spell, shadow step - it appears on several classes' spell lists, but isn't in the book beyond that.
It is on page 237
What is (are?) you guys' favorite new spells and briefly, what do they do?
What is (are?) you guys' favorite new spells and briefly, what do they do?
Mad Monkeys.
It summons a swarm of monkeys.
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Snapdragon Fireworks are still pure joy. Most people looked at it and thought Gandalf at the beginning of LotR. My group looked at it and thought Jubilee.
Holy Ice is a multipurpose spell involving frozen holy water, which can be used defensively(as a wall) or offensively(as spears). Awesome for anyone that enjoys ice-magic visuals for their good aligned characters, though it's divine only.
What is (are?) you guys' favorite new spells and briefly, what do they do?
Skinsend. You magically tear off your own skin (all of it) and transfer your waking conscious into it. It walks around and does stuff at your command (even casting spells) as though it were you. Meanwhile, your skinless body lies helpless (and stable) at 0 hit points.
So freaky it's fun!
What is (are?) you guys' favorite new spells and briefly, what do they do?Skinsend. You magically tear off your own skin (all of it) and transfer your waking conscious into it. It walks around and does stuff at your command (even casting spells) as though it were you. Meanwhile, your skinless body lies helpless (and stable) at 0 hit points.
So freaky it's fun!
Wow...that's....I can't even....just....wow.
Wow...that's....I can't even....just....wow.What is (are?) you guys' favorite new spells and briefly, what do they do?Skinsend. You magically tear off your own skin (all of it) and transfer your waking conscious into it. It walks around and does stuff at your command (even casting spells) as though it were you. Meanwhile, your skinless body lies helpless (and stable) at 0 hit points.
So freaky it's fun!
And it's only a 2nd-level spell!
So...
is there any evocational love? Wizard love?
Cause from what I've seen, the wizard gets the fewest pages
and fewest feats.
And what about debuffs? I love spells like Touch if Idiocy.
Got any of those?
Global answer : yes ! :DSo...
is there any evocational love? Wizard love?
Cause from what I've seen, the wizard gets the fewest pages
and fewest feats.
And what about debuffs? I love spells like Touch if Idiocy.
Got any of those?
Examples?
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Coming from a pal, here are four partial examples taken without second thought (incomplete description and no informations on the spells, but these are all low-to-mid levels) :
Force Punch : melee touch attack, 1d4 points of force damage per level, pushes the target away in a straight line.
Fleshworm infestation : As a touch attack, the target must make a save every round or take 1d6 hit points of damage and 2 points of Dexterity damage, plus one more little debuff for 1 round.
Howling agony : Inflicts so much pain the affected creatures take a –2 penalty to AC, attacks, melee damage rolls, and Reflex saving throws. Forces a concentration check to cast spells.
Lightning arc : Generates an arc of lightning between two targets. 1d6 points of electricity damage per caster level to both targets and any creatures in a line connecting them.
These are two necromantic debuffs and two evocation spells, but there are obviously a lot more to discover. Nice book IMHO, no feeling of power creep and lots of flavor in the spells and options. :)
Lightning arc : Generates an arc of lightning between two targets. 1d6 points of electricity damage per caster level to both targets and any creatures in a line connecting them.
Reminds me of Gedlee's Electric Loop (which a believe was a SKR spell).
{wanders off in search of a Rush album}
Coming from a pal, here are four partial examples taken without second thought (incomplete description and no informations on the spells, but these are all low-to-mid levels) :
Force Punch : melee touch attack, 1d4 points of force damage per level, pushes the target away in a straight line.
Fleshworm infestation : As a touch attack, the target must make a save every round or take 1d6 hit points of damage and 2 points of Dexterity damage, plus one more little debuff for 1 round.
Howling agony : Inflicts so much pain the affected creatures take a –2 penalty to AC, attacks, melee damage rolls, and Reflex saving throws. Forces a concentration check to cast spells.
Lightning arc : Generates an arc of lightning between two targets. 1d6 points of electricity damage per caster level to both targets and any creatures in a line connecting them.
These are two necromantic debuffs and two evocation spells, but there are obviously a lot more to discover. Nice book IMHO, no feeling of power creep and lots of flavor in the spells and options. :)
and witches?
I love the new infinite food supply. :)
Restore Corpse (1st level spell for just about everyone).
It regrows rotten flesh on a skeleton so that it's viable to raise as a zombie.
Combine this with purify food and water, which says it turns rotten meat into good meat...
Any besieged city just slaughter's a cow, peals as much meat off as they can without disrupting the skeleton. Cast restore corpse. Cut the rotting meat off, cast purify food and drink on the rotting meat.
Infinite beef supply. :) Better than having those rams from Norse mythology. :)
There's also a spell to decompose a corpse, that get's rid of all it's flesh.
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Witches got new hexes, new feats for hexes, and a lot of new spells they share with cleric/wizard/druid. They get the two previous mentioned necromantic debuffs, for example.
Lots of spells which deal with fear, pain, poison, contagion, weird uses/warps of body, sickness, curses... all you need to build horrible witches you don't even want to approach because the sheer idea of your character being bathed in pus and toxins gives you chills.
Any new magic items of interest? And are there favored class options for the magus?
No new magic items, just spells, feats, archetypes, and crunchy rules.
No, no favored class options for anyone/anything. :(
I really wish they'd make favored class options for the core races a part of any new base classes stat block. Oh well, I'm sure a thread will start with homebrew suggestions.
Asia is a much larger place with more varieties of people, cultures and beliefs than most Americans would seem to appreciate.What about the Metal/ Wood Wizard Schools?
The metal and wood wizard schools opens the door for traditional Asian elemental relationships. Instead of the traditional crucible elemental relationship in the west (fire and water oppose each other and air and earth oppose each other) you can get the wheel relationship used in Asia (wood overcomes earth, earth overcomes water, water overcomes fire, fire overcomes metal, and metal overcomes wood).
I think he just meant that it's the most well known of the non-four element systems in Asia. There's quite a few actually. I saw one depicted as a circle/cross. It actually had the four traditional elements at the top, bottom and sides, spirit in the center, and inside the circle was merge elements (mud = water/earth, lava = fire/earth, etc).
There are also some cultures that use the four classical elements as well, just all depends on which part of Asia you take a peak at.
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Any new magic items of interest? And are there favored class options for the magus?No new magic items, just spells, feats, archetypes, and crunchy rules..
That's ... surprising. Not that I mind, I just have gotten rather used to each book containing new magic items.
No, no favored class options for anyone/anything. :(
I really wish they'd make favored class options for the core races a part of any new base classes stat block. Oh well, I'm sure a thread will start with homebrew suggestions.
This, on the other hand is rather regrettable. It would also make a nice blog post.
What is (are?) you guys' favorite new spells and briefly, what do they do?Skinsend. You magically tear off your own skin (all of it) and transfer your waking conscious into it. It walks around and does stuff at your command (even casting spells) as though it were you. Meanwhile, your skinless body lies helpless (and stable) at 0 hit points.
So freaky it's fun!
I'm already running over the possibilities in my head and they are many.
Any new magic items of interest? And are there favored class options for the magus?No new magic items, just spells, feats, archetypes, and crunchy rules..That's ... surprising. Not that I mind, I just have gotten rather used to each book containing new magic items.
I'm not actually surprised. I think they want to, after APG, move away from the 'a little of everything in a book', which I'm thrilled by. Sometimes you can't get away from it (UC will have new gear in it, Melee is gear dependent, and with the new classes, they have to put in gear for them). The Magus can use wizard/fighter gear from the rest of the books. I'd much rather wait for a new crunch book next year called Ultimate Gear. I rather suspect that James also would prefer to keep the books focused on one thing, so that the GM isn't yanking down 10 books off the shelf to remember where he saw that sharskin leather armor from (turns out it was in stormwrack).
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I'm not actually surprised. I think they want to, after APG, move away from the 'a little of everything in a book', which I'm thrilled by. Sometimes you can't get away from it (UC will have new gear in it, Melee is gear dependent, and with the new classes, they have to put in gear for them). The Magus can use wizard/fighter gear from the rest of the books. I'd much rather wait for a new crunch book next year called Ultimate Gear. I rather suspect that James also would prefer to keep the books focused on one thing, so that the GM isn't yanking down 10 books off the shelf to remember where he saw that sharskin leather armor from (turns out it was in stormwrack).
Regrettably, Ultimate Combat WILL contain new spells. Probably because Ultimate Magic contains no spells that'd be of use in combat.
I'm not actually surprised. I think they want to, after APG, move away from the 'a little of everything in a book', which I'm thrilled by. Sometimes you can't get away from it (UC will have new gear in it, Melee is gear dependent, and with the new classes, they have to put in gear for them). The Magus can use wizard/fighter gear from the rest of the books. I'd much rather wait for a new crunch book next year called Ultimate Gear. I rather suspect that James also would prefer to keep the books focused on one thing, so that the GM isn't yanking down 10 books off the shelf to remember where he saw that sharskin leather armor from (turns out it was in stormwrack).Regrettably, Ultimate Combat WILL contain new spells. Probably because Ultimate Magic contains no spells that'd be of use in combat.
Uh,
I award you a giant red F, a pointy coned hat, a stool in the corner, and the laughter of your classmates.Acidic Spray
Agonize
Allegro
Arboreal Hammer
Archon's Aura
Arrow of Law
Ash Storm
Atavism
Atavism, Mass
Aura of Doom
All are either good attack spells, buff spells, debuff spells, or battlefield control spells.
And that's just the ones in the A's.
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Uh,
I award you a giant red F, a pointy coned hat, a stool in the corner, and the laughter of your classmates.Acidic Spray
Agonize
Allegro
Arboreal Hammer
Archon's Aura
Arrow of Law
Ash Storm
Atavism
Atavism, Mass
Aura of DoomAll are either good attack spells, buff spells, debuff spells, or battlefield control spells.
And that's just the ones in the A's.
I guess I should have used a [SARCASM] tag.
My point was, that I saw little reason for UC to contain spells that make magic users better combatants when UM already contains such spells.
I guess I should have used a [SARCASM] tag.
My point was, that I saw little reason for UC to contain spells that make magic users better combatants when UM already contains such spells.
Yep, it's hard to read sarcasm over the intarweb.
I don't think UC will have many spells if any at all, honestly. Did someone from Paizo say it would?
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I guess I should have used a [SARCASM] tag.
My point was, that I saw little reason for UC to contain spells that make magic users better combatants when UM already contains such spells.Yep, it's hard to read sarcasm over the intarweb.
I don't think UC will have many spells if any at all, honestly. Did someone from Paizo say it would?
If I remember correctly, they stated that UC will contain more pages on spells than on gunslingers and guns.
If I remember correctly, they stated that UC will contain more pages on spells than on gunslingers and guns.I guess I should have used a [SARCASM] tag.
My point was, that I saw little reason for UC to contain spells that make magic users better combatants when UM already contains such spells.Yep, it's hard to read sarcasm over the intarweb.
I don't think UC will have many spells if any at all, honestly. Did someone from Paizo say it would?
Which might mean there are 5 pages of spells, and 4 pages of gunslinger/guns. I would expect that any spells are primarily for the combat classes with spells, like ranger and paladin.
Lightning arc : Generates an arc of lightning between two targets. 1d6 points of electricity damage per caster level to both targets and any creatures in a line connecting them.Reminds me of Gedlee's Electric Loop (which a believe was a SKR spell).
{wanders off in search of a Rush album}
Funny, Lightning Arc reminds me of the nearly identical spell Arc of Lightning from the 3.5 Spell Compendium. :-P
Asia is a much larger place with more varieties of people, cultures and beliefs than most Americans would seem to appreciate.What about the Metal/ Wood Wizard Schools?
The metal and wood wizard schools opens the door for traditional Asian elemental relationships. Instead of the traditional crucible elemental relationship in the west (fire and water oppose each other and air and earth oppose each other) you can get the wheel relationship used in Asia (wood overcomes earth, earth overcomes water, water overcomes fire, fire overcomes metal, and metal overcomes wood).
I think he just meant that it's the most well known of the non-four element systems in Asia. There's quite a few actually. I saw one depicted as a circle/cross. It actually had the four traditional elements at the top, bottom and sides, spirit in the center, and inside the circle was merge elements (mud = water/earth, lava = fire/earth, etc).
There are also some cultures that use the four classical elements as well, just all depends on which part of Asia you take a peak at.
mdt is correct in his interpretation of what I meant. I know full well about the varieties of people, cultures, and beliefs in Asia. I spent many years there and have done/still do extensive research into those cultures. I even married into one of them. Heck, I even started writing Jade Oath as an outlet for frustrations that RPGs have usually only represented Japanese-inspired settings for their "Fantasy Asia".
The metal and wood wizard schools opens the door for traditional Asian elemental relationships. Instead of the traditional crucible elemental relationship in the west (fire and water oppose each other and air and earth oppose each other) you can get the wheel relationship used in Asia (wood overcomes earth, earth overcomes water, water overcomes fire, fire overcomes metal, and metal overcomes wood).Asia is a much larger place with more varieties of people, cultures and beliefs than most Americans would seem to appreciate.
But you couldn´t have bothered yourself to actually share any of those,
being as your rant against the ignorants so tired out your sensitive consititution. Give me a break.His summary was accurate enough for this context, and saying ´Chinese 5- Elements Theory´ would have been MORE mis-leading to a reader who wasn´t familiar with the subject in the first place, because it´s not at all confined to China, is it? Since he was comparing it to ANOTHER obvious ´simplification´ (´West´ with Greek Element Cosmology), normal readers wouldn´t be surprised that ´Asia´ was also some sort of simplification. In modern American English, ´Asia´ is used more narrowly to signify the Chinese-influenced regions of East Asia and SE Asia, so recognizing 5-Elements Theory as the tradition tying those areas together is completely reasonable in my book.
In any case, what would be those new spells on the lists for metal/wood, and what kind of existing spells do they have access to? From those POWERS... I´m kind of under-whelmed (not that they´re BAD), and the APG spell lists for the other elements also underwhelmed me... Too much focus on the same-old elements as damage type, as opposed to stages or emotions in the flux of all things. Do wood and metal deliver on that end?
I even married into one of them. Heck, I even started writing Jade Oath as an outlet for frustrations that RPGs have usually only represented Japanese-inspired settings for their "Fantasy Asia".
The eastern continent in my world (which I still haven't fleshed out completely) is more of a polyglot. It's got flavor from Japan (samurai, ninja, although technically you could call them nobles and an'chi and it's then a chinese theme), the oni hells (the entire continent is shaped as a big oval sort of, with mountain ranges cutting the coast from the interior, which is permanently cloud covered and is where all the demon lands are), a Great Wall (to keep the demons confined to the interior of the island). So a little bit stolen from everywhere.
I will, however, likely use the wheel'o'elements, as it's personally to me a more elegant one.