First I'll apologise for any misconstrued comments in the following post.
It's my personal opinion only, based purely on the OP's comments, I haven't playtested a Gunslinger and never will in a fantasy Swords and Sorcery style campaign setting. It doesn't "Feel" right!
After reading the OP's description of the class build and the subsequent combat example. I can only cringe at the "Apparent" power creep. It seems that to hit an opponent with a "Bullet" is way to easy. The touch AC alone is wrong IMO it can't be justified, the propelled missile is trying to hurt the intended target as an arrow would. If I were to have Gunsingers in my world then all missile firing weapons would be houseruled to touch AC only just to keep the non gunslingers happy!
It would appear that the designers have tried to shoehorn a class into the setting because they can and it would be "Cool" to "Duel" at high noon!
This is a product, based on first impressions purely because it includes Guns, that I won't be purchasing. If there was a dedicated seperate PFRpg firearms book with additional rules and classes that created a wild west theme then it wouldnt be such a strained, IMHO intangible addition to an otherwise well balanced fantasy setting.
Yeah, reread Spellcombat. I'm almost positive it says melee weapon. Had this idea too, and I still like it, though it doesn't work within the actual rules.
On the other hand, twould be a neat idea for an archtype.
Also, bodrin...you have not read the actual class? Might want to. It's not every shot that works off touch, only the first range increment, or through an expenditure of grit. Personally, I'm very close to being right there with you, and very well might houserule that the only way to go off touch is by grit alone...just wanted to make sure you were clear on how it actually worked though.
Bullets go right through any armor in those years.Given the technology of full plate, no, bullets don't go "right through" that. Especially not period bullets.
Correct a lead shot bullet would either bounce or dent the breastplate, agreed causes some harm to the wearer, think Kevlar vest, but it would also depend on range too!
Bodrin:
Well, not to be a jerk, but I think you just proved my point. I'm not saying that you're wrong for not liking guns and having such a strong opinion on them, just that you shouldn't have such a knee-jerk reaction. The Gunslinger is one class in a book that will have tons of classes. It'd be like if I didn't buy the advanced players guide because Bombs are too unrealistic or something.As for the touch AC, I'm sure people have discussed this before. Touch AC represents just what it takes to come in contact with someone. So you get your Dex bonus. Bullets go right through any armor in those years. There is a reason why Cowboys and Civil War Soldiers did not have armor.
Oh, right. I'm a noob. No clue what RAI or RAW is.
RAW - Rules as written
RAI - Rules as intendedI think cowboys and civil war soldiers didn't have armour because it was too costly to make to stop bullets effectively, and it was heavy. Not because it was ineffective.
I choose not to buy the product because of the gunslinger class, I have read other posts on the second round playtest board and can see some good points made by everyone but the majority seem to be negative or wary. I have commented upon the Touch Ac posts though and offered a suggestion regarding Armor Penetration similar to Spell Resistance.
[URL]http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/ultimateCombatPlaytest/gunslingerRound2/whyTouchACAndNotFlatFooted&p age=3#117[/URL]
Also, bodrin...you have not read the actual class? Might want to. It's not every shot that works off touch, only the first range increment, or through an expenditure of grit. Personally, I'm very close to being right there with you, and very well might houserule that the only way to go off touch is by grit alone...just wanted to make sure you were clear on how it actually worked though.
Correct just not interested in Guns, 23 years of playing D&D through every iteration except 4E and never once met anyone that suggested firearms were needed in any of the campaign worlds! Even though AD&D did have firearms in the equipment lists!
It just doesn't feel "Right" make it a "Few Dollars More" setting then I'll be right there but it just doesn't conjure the correct image IMO.
Gandalf " You shall not pass!" draws pistol and fires at Balrog.
"Do you feel lucky, Punk?" I know this is a dirty harry quote, but it seems appropriate!
bodrin...not trying to talk you into using guns. If they don't work for you, they don't work. I wouldn't use them in every setting myself (if one of my players suggested playing a gunslinger when I was running Darksun, I would likely slug them...in the face...with a brick...a heavy one). I am curious though on your word usage. You say they aren't needed. Personally there's a lot of stuff that isn't needed (barbarians, paladins, sorcerer/wizard [as in pick one or the other]) though I like the fact that those options are there. Like I said though, I getcha on the "it doesn't feel right".
I do have to add though, I don't play Tolkenesque, as Tolken is a joke to my mind. The setting is bland (interesting when taken into the context of being one of the first, though he looses any points that earns him by being a horrible writer). Were I interested in playing in something like Middle Earth, I would not allow gunslingers at all (and use a slightly less heavy brick than if I were running DS), though I wouldn't allow any of the caster classes as presented either.
Nathanial...I'm probably one of the last people who would tell you your playing the game wrong, so don't take this as coming from that angle. If you make a house rule and like it, killer. I do have something to say as to why I wouldn't allow just a straight "spellcombat works with ranged weapons" ruling though...
As writen, a magus needs to be within melee range to use spellcombat, allowing him to attack and cast a spell in the same action. Casting that spell though, provokes attacks of opportunity, or requires a dice check, which has the potential to result in a lost spell slot with no effect (though the attack goes through).
If we allow ranged weapons to use spellcombat, there is no potential AoO, nor is there the need to make a concentration check for the potential to loose the spell.
Another thing to think about is reach weapons, which would also result in the lack of AoO or concentration checks, though are likewise not permited by the rules (spellcombat only works with a one handed weapon).
Now there is a weapon or two which is one handed and reach, though these generally do pitiful damage (whip still works this way or is it a ranged weapon in Pathfinder?) and/or are exotic weapons.
This all may not seem game breaking, and in all honesty it's probably not. You allowing a magus to spellcombat with a ranged weapon isn't likely to lead to first level characters killing a god, or cause everyone within a thousand mile radius of your gaming group to play only magus characters. Nor will puppies explode or kittens melt...unfortunately (god I hate dogs/cats).
It does, however, give the magus a pretty good shot in the arm, which may cause a noticable effect to your game. I wouldn't do it in one of mine, though I wouldn't throw my hands up in the air and storm out of a game where someone did it (though I might change characters from whatever I was going to play to a magus based solely on that one change).
I do realy like the idea of a magus/gunslinger though, and it's something I'm going to fidle with in my spare time...I just need to figure what they will loose in order to gain the ability we've discussed.
bodrin...not trying to talk you into using guns. If they don't work for you, they don't work. I wouldn't use them in every setting myself (if one of my players suggested playing a gunslinger when I was running Darksun, I would likely slug them...in the face...with a brick...a heavy one). I am curious though on your word usage. You say they aren't needed. Personally there's a lot of stuff that isn't needed (barbarians, paladins, sorcerer/wizard [as in pick one or the other]) though I like the fact that those options are there. Like I said though, I getcha on the "it doesn't feel right".
I do have to add though, I don't play Tolkenesque, as Tolken is a joke to my mind. The setting is bland (interesting when taken into the context of being one of the first, though he looses any points that earns him by being a horrible writer). Were I interested in playing in something like Middle Earth, I would not allow gunslingers at all (and use a slightly less heavy brick than if I were running DS), though I wouldn't allow any of the caster classes as presented either.
It isn't that they don't work, it's they don't work for the High Fantasy setting
I disagree with Tolkien being a joke but I respect your opinion, but do agree wholeheartedly with the terrible writer comment!!
I'll reiterate with other authors for balance then, Raymond E Feist, Trudi Canavon, Hickman and Weiss even Steven king wrote "The Talisman" with Peter Straub but omitted, IMO, his most iconic Gunslinger Roland Deschain although the man in black, Randall Flagg is the main protagonist of the story and features in the dark tower novels. Now that is a setting that absolutely needs a Gunslinger class! None of the above mentioned authors felt it necessary to have a Gun wielding character in their novels.
I'm absolutely in agreement with you on Dark Sun, I still have all the 2E AD&D campaign setting in my attic plus ancillary products. I abhor the 4E rules but love the new DS stuff however not enough to buy it again!
Things that aren't needed are subjective anyway, I only highlighted that the groups I've role played with; not one player or GM said, "I want to buy an Arquebus and use it as my main weapon because the game seems lacking!"
As always there are many different styles of play and many types of players.
A manly kiss? Reminds me of when I drank more...
Lunge isn't that weak of an argument honestly, though there are a few things to consider. The expenditure of a feat costs you...well, a feat, and as someone who is playing in both magical and martial mud pudles, a magus has plenty of other feats to want. Also, there is a -2 to ac to consider. It's sorta a weak counter to what you call your own weak argument, but it is something.
There's no private messaging here, though I imagine there's nothing stopping us from hammering out a concept in this topic, or perhaps make a new one. Largely my eye for balance is due to a few years of reading through topics on these boards and truly considering what I read. Not just developing an opinion and looking for arguments that support my views (an american past time which has eclipsed baseball in my opinion), but looking at why people think what they think.
I'll spend an hour or two really going over the magus here shortly, and come back with what I think, then we can see what you think of what I thought.
bodrin...as our opinions of Tolken differ, so too do our opinions of what works for high fantasy. I'm something of a budding steam punk fan, as well as a former Planescape fan (not former as in I don't like it anymore, I just don't have an outlet for a slowly fading interest), so when I say high fantasy, Gandalf and his occassional light spell are light years behind what I'm talking about. I enjoy a good mix of technology and magic as well as a blending of the two in what I call high fantasy.
No, those authors choose not to use firearms in their fantasy, or rather, didn't choose TO use firearms...If you read China Meivelle (sure I spelled the last name wrong), you will find some characters carying muskets and pistols; I forget the name of the series as well as the writer, but there's a "dragons are killing everything and we must protect the chosen one so he can grow up and kill them all" book I read a while back that had cannons and prostetics for maimed warriors. Worked rather well, beyond all the cliched plot devices. There's also Ptolus, Iron Kingdoms, Eberron, and I'm sure dozens more examples of fantasy settings in which there are some sort of firearm or firearm type device.
Again, if firearms don't work for you, then there's no need for you to use them. I'm not sure I understand not purchasing the book based on the fact that you don't like firearms, as there's a lot more to Ultimate Combat than the gunslinger and his equipment. Personally I'm more pissed about the ninja and the samurai than I have in regards to a roleplaying product sense Wizards pulled the Dungeon and Dragon liscenses from Paizo, but I know there is plenty of other material that's going to justify the cover price to me. There's probably at least as many pages of spells I've never used in the books I own as those two classes will take up, so I can't get too far up the soap box to rant.
My first campaign setting (after learning the basics in a psudoGreyhawk) was Dark Sun. Those days are always going to stay with me...back when you didn't make a character, you made THREE, cuz one was sure to die, the other sure to loose a limb or two, and maybe, just maybe you could get the third to acomplish something. That and cannibal halflings. You just can't go wrong with cannibal halflings. Every so often I look at my Iron Heroes books, and my second ed Dark Sun books, and I contemplite getting them both very drunk and playing something slow...
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But this topic really interests me. You seem to have the experience with gaming that I lack and a mind for balance. If you'll have me, I'd like to work with you on figuring out this alternate class feature. I have some ideas for it, and if you want to talk over PM to pad them out maybe we can convince someone at Paizo (That's a long shot, though).
There is a Gunmage prestige class which will come up in the Ultimate Combat rulebook.
If you wish to use a ranged gun magus, here is something that could work :- Change Spellstrike by this : make it allowing you to launch a spell using a ranged touch attack by a ranged attack on normal AC in your gun's first increment. Exemple : a bullet of Ray of Enfeeblement.
- Change Spell Combat by the capacity to instead cast a spell doing at least one ranged attack, using either one (for spells with only one missile/ray) or all your round's attacks (like Scorching Ray) to fire the rays. These ranged attacks are made with any bonus you add to your ranged attacks and damage with this gun, from enhancement, class abilities or feats. For example, a level 7 magus with one attack per round (+5), 16 Dex (+3), Weapon Focus (+1), a +2 Pistol and using Spell Combat could cast Scorching Ray (two rays at this level) with his gun at +11 instead of +8, and deal 4d6+2 per ray instead of 4d6 (Laser Gun !). The magus could also cast a Ray of Enfeeblement at +11 instead of +8 and shot one normal bullet after. (Beware, I'm not counting the normal -4 malus from Spell Combat.)
Keep all normal maluses from using these. It seems like the loss of concentration checks is a big deal, but you can make them an obligation on Spell Combat even when not directly in range of an AoO.
It needs some ranged attacks spells from Wizard's list though, and it's only an idea so don't expect perfection from this post. Also, nice synergy from the metamagic which changes the range of a spell, from contact to ranged in this case so you're allowed to use Shocking Grasp on a bullet...
Still thinking about it in depth (or at least attempting to). One thing I'm thinking is switching it over from using melee to using ranged, rather than attempting to come up with something where you can do both. This or just requiring a concentration check, though I'm not sure how to justify it...
First I'll apologise for any misconstrued comments in the following post.
It's my personal opinion only, based purely on the OP's comments, I haven't playtested a Gunslinger and never will in a fantasy Swords and Sorcery style campaign setting. It doesn't "Feel" right!After reading the OP's description of the class build and the subsequent combat example. I can only cringe at the "Apparent" power creep. It seems that to hit an opponent with a "Bullet" is way to easy. The touch AC alone is wrong IMO it can't be justified, the propelled missile is trying to hurt the intended target as an arrow would. If I were to have Gunsingers in my world then all missile firing weapons would be houseruled to touch AC only just to keep the non gunslingers happy!
It would appear that the designers have tried to shoehorn a class into the setting because they can and it would be "Cool" to "Duel" at high noon!
This is a product, based on first impressions purely because it includes Guns, that I won't be purchasing. If there was a dedicated seperate PFRpg firearms book with additional rules and classes that created a wild west theme then it wouldnt be such a strained, IMHO intangible addition to an otherwise well balanced fantasy setting.
Strange to quote oneself true, but I am going to eat humble pie, and publicly apologise for my bias towards firearms.
At approximately 15:00 Hrs GMT I managed to look through my Hardback copy of the Inner Sea World Guide in my Local Gaming Store. I've been awaiting the delivery due to an incompetent clerk, who incidentally is a player in my Age of Worms campaign, forgetting to order it.
I still walked away from the store without the physical book due to a large gouge on the front cover, one can only presume some dimmock, with a packing knife, had vigorously attacked the box at the depot. :-(
I scanned the contents, contained in the tome and happened upon the firearms, after a cursory glance at the stats, I thought Meh!! "Guns no thank you."
However further perusal of the Golarion setting revealed a place that I can see firearms being very much in use where they "feel right" more so than Spells. "Arrrgh me hearties" Oh yes a pirate themed area of the world, I can't remember the name of it as I have no book to refer to, perfect.
It isn't that they don't work, it's they don't work for the High Fantasy setting
I disagree with Tolkien being a joke but I respect your opinion, but do agree wholeheartedly with the terrible writer comment!!
I'll reiterate with other authors for balance then, Raymond E Feist, Trudi Canavon, Hickman and Weiss even Steven king wrote "The Talisman" with Peter Straub but omitted, IMO, his most iconic Gunslinger Roland Deschain although the man in black, Randall Flagg is the main protagonist of the story and features in the dark tower novels. Now that is a setting that absolutely needs a Gunslinger class! None of the above mentioned authors felt it necessary to have a Gun wielding character in their novels.
I'm absolutely in agreement with you on Dark Sun, I still have all the 2E AD&D campaign setting in my attic plus ancillary products. I abhor the 4E rules but love the new DS stuff however not enough to buy it again!
Things that aren't needed are subjective anyway, I only highlighted that the groups I've role played with; not one player or GM said, "I want to buy an Arquebus and use it as my main weapon because the game seems lacking!"
As always there are many different styles of play and many types of players.
Pirates are not my idea of High fantasy aka Tolkienesque but still an enjoyable and easy to comprehend concept.
Pirates, Swashbucklers, Ship combat and Cannons!!! Thar she blows.
I'll possibly consider buying Ultimate Combat and maybe Ultimate Magic contrary to what I have stated elsewhere on the forums, purely to have the correct rules for a Gun Wielding character, sat upon the shelf. Ninjas and Samurais in the oriental style areas also a given.
Now apology over, I still think the Touch AC attack of firearms is unbalanced and the misfire rule doesn't equate to a reasonable compromise, which still bolsters my bias towards characters running around a campaign with them, unless pirate-ish themed, I wouldn't be able to quantify the reasons enough!
Yeah, pirates are what I first thought of when I heard about the gunslinger. Even before seeing the art. After reading the class, it screams swashbuckling adventure to me (cept that part where grit's based on wisdom, but I don't play Society, so an occasional houserule isn't much of an issue.
Shackles I believe is what you're thinking. There is also Alkenzar (probably misspelled that), which is the kingdom of firearms in Golarion.
Glad to hear your looking at things with an open mind. Don't think you need to apologize though. If you don't like something you don't like it. Me, I hate elves (and I'm a hypocrite, as one of my aliases is an elf, and I would love to resurrect an old elvin wizard I played in third edition [though truth be told he was a drow, not an elf]). Likely you'll never see me apologizing for it.
Hey, the dudes who don't like guns... okay.. we hear you. But, okay, it's enough. Go back and look at your 1st edition DMG. Guns are there. With rules about how to incorporate them into the game. Go and look at the original dragon magazines, Gary Gygax, creator of the game, created a demi-deity in his world of Greyhawk, whose Holy Symbol is a sheriff's badge and who used a gun. So it's part of the game, it's been there, since the beginning. Yeah they're rare, and they're supposed to be, but for those who enjoy that style, let them have their fun. Some people like different flavors of ice cream. That's why there are there is more than one flavor of ice cream. If you like vanilla. Hey that's great. I like rocky road.
I know they were in AD&D, I quoted the source in an earlier post. I pointed out though that in groups that I have participated in nobody wanted an Arquebus or other firearm as the setting didn't warrant it.
However I do like vanilla but I also like rocky road, the same is with rpg rules, I like the rules mostly but there are some I don't!
@Fraust Shackles was the area of Golarion.
When I think about guns i don't think western movies. As I said above, I think to swashbuckling adventures, pirates and such.
Even more times, I think to landsknechts, tercios and similar mercenaries of the 15th and 16th century.
For landsknechts, normal warriors would be standard pikemen, and two handed fighters and musketeers gunslinger would be the Doppelsöldner(s)
There is nothing to stop a Magus from using firearms. Alkenstar is part of Nex, where a large amount Of Magi are likely to be from and would work quite well if spell points were used to imbue wis weapon. Spellstrike/spellcombat would not work however.