I havent had the time to read Rule of Fear yet, but I've always wondered about the outside threats to Ustalav and how they would cope.
I like your idea with the exception of rejecting any local rulers legitimacy. This would eventually (imho) cause more trouble. I would take your idea and make it a volunteer but very prestigious post. I'd also have local rulers endorse this group as they are doing part of their work for them providing protection for the citizens.
As long as this didnt change any day to day things in the country (or cause any political headaches for the rulers), they would be free to recruit volunteers from the populace, etc.
I'd drop the "scythers" for my campaign. Too much of the population being trained to fight would take away from the setting imho. That's why the locals need heroes!
Great Idea overall. :)
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Our group also had issues with the concept. Our solutions were demons don't want to upset the lich king because he might just wake up if they push him. Or be has made a deal with them. The orcs only attack with small tribes because the warlords can't gain glory attacking pitiful little oppressed villagers.
The other thought is going with a historical route the Mongols invaded europe and saw little to no wealth so they stopped invading because it was worth it. Orcs in the last big invasion didn't see anything valuable so once again it isn't worth it. Mongol reference comes from letters Subodei wrote to the khans.
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You could adopt the wave view of the orcs as well. Rather than viewing them as a viable national military, think of them as a group of barbarian tribes. They fight each other as much as anyone else until a leader comes along and unites them. In this scenario it would make sense that they could both be threatening, and dormant for long periods of time. It still would leave the border unsettled, but rather than have them sweep into the country en masse, it is little raiding parties of twenty to forty orcs.
That also sets up a great campaign idea because when the orcs start to gather under one of those leaders, someone would need to do something about it or they will roll through the country.
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Ustalav has a reputation of being haunted, so nobody wants to invade and take possession of the territory.
I call this the "Scooby Doo" defense.
That's pretty much how I see it as well. We don't go to Ravenholm ... much less blow our resources trying to invade it.
As far as the Worldwound is concerned, James Jacobs said a while back (at least I think it was James) that it's entirely possible that wardstones are present along the Worldwound/Ustalav border.
Personally I'm going with that and the possibility that the extremely high concentration of paladins, clerics, holy relics and locations, possibly even quite a few more or less powerful celestial beings, serve as a sort of magnet for the demons, compelling them to continually throw themselves against Mendev, ignoring other more convenient ways to spread their unholy taint. The crusades have been an intolerable beacon of divine Good that's too bright for the demons to ignore.
Basic answer: poking your finger too much might just wake up the Tyrant. Old Legends amongst Orc shamans still recall how the Tyrant turned their invading horde into an undead army and sent them back to destroy the orcs. It took generations to recover from the Dead Wars.
Demons are smart enough not to want to have to deal with the Tyrant. Yet...
Regarding your border patrol: Use the Night Watch idea from the Song of Ice and Fire. Convicted criminals, second sons of nobility, etc.. are responsible for holding the borders.
As far as the Worldwound is concerned, James Jacobs said a while back (at least I think it was James) that it's entirely possible that wardstones are present along the Worldwound/Ustalav border.
Personally I'm going with that and the possibility that the extremely high concentration of paladins, clerics, holy relics and locations, possibly even quite a few more or less powerful celestial beings, serve as a sort of magnet for the demons, compelling them to continually throw themselves against Mendev, ignoring other more convenient ways to spread their unholy taint. The crusades have been an intolerable beacon of divine Good that's too bright for the demons to ignore.
Thanks, Heine Stick. Do you have a link?
There are plenty of bad guys. But you don't get the sense that there's sort of a crowded green room with Darth Vader, Voldemort, Morgana, Count Dracula and Dr. Evil all battling for a shot at the little sandwiches and pretzels.
Sir this, along with the "scooby doo defense" may be some of the greatest things ever written.
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I'm running Carrion Crown at the moment.
This is the way I see Ustalav:
The orcs use Ustalav as a raiding destination for supplies and gold. Ustalav is entirely too dangerous for orcs to consider conquering. Werewolves, vampires and the Whispering Tyrant are enough to make UStalav a place for young orcs to prove themselves, but not a place any orc wants to stay in.
The borders of Ustalav are protected by border patrols raised from the local counties. The guards near Tamriven are criminals given badges upon condition that they do fight orcs. Other counties have more lawful or more good guards in varying degrees.
The Crusades have stalled the demonic horde's advances into Ustalav. For how long no one knows. Is the stall because the Whispering Tyrant is still trapped in Ustalav? Or are they trying to get to and free the powerful lich?
The human civilization is divided and bickering and would be easy fodder for the vampires and werewolves. Therefore they should have been eliminated long before. Except that vampires and werewolves need humans to some degree, if as food if nothing else. I expect to find powerful vampires and lycans pulling the strings behind the human thrones. The human wars are actually mirrors to the monstrous wars that exist behind the curtain.
And don't underestimate the occasional human heroes that rise up to battle the orc invasion, the demonic horde and the undead uprising. Amazing what a few heroes can accomplish.
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We don't go to RavenholmAs someone getting to play in Carrion Crown, I pray there's a Father Grigori-style NPC to get our backs.
And if there is....GM, you have to do the laugh!
Well, even if it's not quite the same scene, in Broken Moon there's an Hangman Tree illustration that's just as scary as the flaming tree with all the burnt up mutant corpses in the Ravenholm plaza.
Damn it was scary good.
The vampires eat any orcs that come across. They may massacre any and all peasants... and likely do so too frequently (see all those ruins), but then that creates ghosts, provides feed for vampires, material for flesh golems and reasons for kids to escape into the wild, be raised by wolves.. become werewolves that eat orcs :p
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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... And don't underestimate the occasional human heroes that rise up to battle the orc invasion, the demonic horde and the undead uprising. Amazing what a few heroes can accomplish.
Pathfinders flock to the Vodavani Lodge in the lakeside capital of Caliphas, from there exploring sites like the Hundred Haunted Vales of the Hungry Mountains, the ghost-infested Furrows, or even the Tyrant’s forbidden fortress of Gallowspire itself. Attrition here is high, and corruption remains perhaps a greater threat than outright death at the hands of Ustalav’s countless dangers.
I ran a short campaign set in Ustalav, and I figured that the populace would be mortified by the very idea of Pathfinders rooting around, unsealing tombs, and generally disrupting Things That Should Be Left Alone.
The vampires eat any orcs that come across. They may massacre any and all peasants... and likely do so too frequently (see all those ruins), but then that creates ghosts, provides feed for vampires, material for flesh golems and reasons for kids to escape into the wild, be raised by wolves.. become werewolves that eat orcs :p
This. The vampires and werewolves may be dangerous, but they're still Ustalav citizens (of a sort), and would repel an invasion.
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I can't agree that Ustalav is undefended.
A major reason you hear about the warlike aspects of its bordering countries is because we’ve said little more about them. Take away the military of Lastwall, the savagery of the orcs, and the invasiveness of the demons of the Worldwound and there's not much left to those regions. I hope someday we get to explore any of these regions in greater detail and make that not the case, but for not, there's not much hyperbole in this statement. That's not the case with Ustalav, though. In Ustalav, the shades of gothic horror are important and the thousands of terrifying plots waiting to be run there. Their relationships with neighbors they generally don't like, less so.
But does that mean Ustalav is defenseless? No way. Is its military focused on in Rule of Fear, no - generally because even if I had had another 64 pages to go on I still wouldn't have enough room to fill the book with all the gothic horror plots and characters and ideas I wanted to. But does that mean there's no details on the country's military? Not the case. Lets start at the top:
Prince Aduard Ordranti III himself is a military ruler, even if any rank he attained before his coronation was ceremonial, his heart is with the nation's soldiers. Page 17 references his "appreciation for military life," "touring the forts of the northern and western borders," and his favor with the "country's fighting men."
So there's at least proof that the military exists, now lets see what they can do.
The county of Ordranto stands as a vulnerable point in the nation's northern defenses, only a thin strip of river guarding a border defended - with few gaps - elsewhere by deadly forests, high mountains, broad rivers, or an inland sea. Page 22 and 23 go on at length about the castles in the region and Ustalav's defense against barbarian raiders, but the merciless efficacy of the nation's military (not to mention their hatred for their ancient foes can be seen in the description of the Ground of Lost Tears, and on page 6 with an overview of the Demonskin War in 1611. This war was only 100 years ago, and Princess Maraet is the current ruler's mother.
Of note, at least one of these descriptions refers to the princess commanding "Odranto's defenders." This is an interesting point. In this case, I'm actually referring to the country's military - headquartered in Caliphas - but every count has the freedom to raise and hold his own martial forces. These forces are meant to defend and police the count's lands, but are also to be committed to the service of the crown when called upon. While this allows the larger military to concern itself with operations besides patrolling roads and borders, it has also allowed some counts to style themselves as warlords.
Nowhere is this better seen than in the county of Barstoi and the conflict remembered as the War without Rivals, which reduced the fertile Ardealin region of Furcina to the scorched land known as the Furrows. Page 60 presents many of the details of this internal war, noting both Ardeal's "unprepared nobles" and "conscripted peasants" and Barstoi's well-trained knights. This isn't implicit here, but in my mind having nobles is synonymous with having knights, especially in a land as feudal as Ustalav. In that case, Ardeals "unprepared nobles" are knights who inherited their titles, but have never had any reason to wield a sword. This softness of the Ustalavic heartland is obviously not representative of the whole nation, though, as Barstoi proves.
But not all martial forces are as splintered, as we see in Tamrivena, Ustalav's miniature police state. This is the seat of Canterwall's twin military forces, the Wallguard and the Foreguard, which, respectively, are the city's standing army of defenders - assuring that, if orc invasion comes, the people of Canterwall have a redoubt to flee to - and the troops guarding of the borders. As the Palatinates have a more unified relationship than other counties, the Foreguard is a welcome sight not just in Canterwall, but also in Vieland to the north. Although not mentioned in Rule of Fear, this is carried through in Pathfinder #44: Trial of the Beast, with the details on border guards on page 83. I can't say that all such guardians are noble knights, in especially in Vieland where mercenaries are more likely to be hired as defenders, but even human bullies are better than orc raiders - usually.
This would also be a good place to not Canterwall’s Bleakwall, the country’s westernmost border that, for centuries, has marked the line between Ustalav and Belkzen. While dozens of fortresses, watch posts, and battlements have been raised upon this border, ages, wars, raids, and disuse have seen castles rise and fall along this stretch of land for centuries, leaving a clear marker of where Ustalav ends and Belkzen begins. While at least two infamous fortresses can be found along this run, there are still a number of surviving turrets that serve as watch posts for the county’s martial forces. Is the “wall” an effective barrier, absolutely not—we’re not trying to make the Great Wall of Ustalav here—but is it a useful front allowing the nation’s defenders to alert those who need to know in case of impending attack. Absolutely. (Though the nation has other agents and allies that would likely alert them to an orc army of significant size forming months before it reached the border.)
We also get notes on Ustalav's defenders on page 10 with the riders of Amaans and their swift fell ponies, the duelists of Lepidstadt (renowned across Avistan for the Lepidstadt Scar; also mentioned in Prince of Wolves) on page 46, and even on page 6 in the year 4669 what might be read as a single count holding back the tide of invasion. And that's to say nothing of the various power groups that make their homes in the nation and the regions that seem more than capable of defending themselves.
Speaking to the concern about Lepidstadt’s safety, the city is largely surrounded by swampland, with forests and mountains to the north and west, so don’t fear much beyond orc raiding parties largely dealt with by militia and mercenary troops. The city, though, is a city of scholars and, over centuries of disuse, have let their walls lapse (even turning Fort Cindercain over in part to the local university). Interesting that this might be the case in a city featuring themes of scholarly arrogance.
But if all this isn't enough for folks to think that Ustalav can hold its own, lets look to the copy of Pathfinder Adventure Path #44 that just landed on my desk, and the article on Caliphas. Here we get more details on the four military fortresses of the Ustalavic capital, Castle Balatz, Castle Borgoffi, Castle Golbanze, and Castle Mashir. Castle Balatz is described as the headquarters of General Drannon Ulvodos, the head of the Ustalavic army, while Castle Golbanze details the admiralty and several famed and infamous captains of Ustalav's twilight-sailed navy. There's more than that, but I'll let you all check that out when it hits your mailboxes.
So that’s my thoughts on the Ustalav military situation. All of that being said, I think the idea of the Royal Bounders is a cool one. With all the threats on the country’s borders, forewarning and preparedness, especially on the part of the royalty that is so distant from contentious borders, would be vital. While we know the king’s adviser Diauden keeps a network of spies and informants in addition to the Bureau of Special Affairs (PF#41 p 64), he might be a good character to have a cagy, fast moving, and autonomous military force serving the will of the throne. Could be pretty neat. Ultimately, though, how much you want to read between the lines into the details of Ustalav’s martial forces and however you want to square this in your game is totally up to you, but I hope this gave folks a few ideas and prepared some GMs to fend off a few pesky player question.
Forewarning, I kicked out this essay in the midst of a very busy time here and I plan to return and refine several ideas (and likely catch a host of typos), but I wanted to make sure the OP and everyone else knew what was in my head and had some fodder to fend off the lurking questions. I'll try to get back and give this a bit of spit shine tonight.
Thanks, Heine Stick. Do you have a link?
Sure thing. HERE.
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There's another thing that may help:
Logistics.
The Orcs, to invade Ustalov, would need to have an infrastructure able to send its armies, supplies and generals far away -- that's a huge number of miles of "worse than Rough Terrain" they'd have to march through -- with supplies, chain of command, intelligence and communications in tact.
That doesn't sound right for Orcs.
For Lastwall, their first rule is to make sure they keep Lastwall secure -- and Tar Baphon asleep. It's maybe like the RISK player who keeps putting his armies on his borders every turn without ever attacking another country.
The Logistics and infrastructure argument doesn't work well with the Demons or Razmiran, but it gives us something.
. . . .
Regarding Wes's illuminating argument:
Even though the Ustalov military is not "non-existant," even if it's logically very strong -- I don't believe it's as strong as Lastwall's -- certainly not Belkzen's, or maybe even Razmiran's -- absolutely not the Demons'.
The idea that all these nations, despite Fluff, have relatively equal military ability (and thus cannot successfully conquer) seems not good.
Ustalov has a competent military, sure -- should it hold up to the Orcs of Belkzen or the Demon Hordes or even a Lastwall army if Lastwall wanted to invade?
I think not, not even close.
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Ustalov has a competent military, sure -- should it hold up to the Orcs of Belkzen or the Demon Hordes or even a Lastwall army if Lastwall wanted to invade?I think not, not even close.
What can we empirically say about any of these militaries? It's not really something factored into our rules system or the statblocks we present for nations beyond the army building subsystems we've presented in Kingmaker.
There's more going on here then a game of chess, where all sides have equal competencies. Organization is one huge factor. The orcs have conquered Ustalav before, under the leadership of the Whispering Tyrant, and were he to be resurrected or were another great leader to unite the hordes, this would be a threat. But until something like that occurs, the orcs are too chaotic, more likely to battle one another or gather in short-lived mobs to raid across the Tusk Mountains. Such war bands are a threat and a constant fear in western Ustalav, but the fear of orc conquest isn't there.
Much the same can be said of the Worldwound. The demons haven't even conquered all of Sarkoris yet, and towns like Gundrun still exist in the southern reaches of the country. Demons are the embodiments of malicious chaos, thus their invasion is like dropping a water balloon, those directly hit are drenched, but as you farther away from the epicenter, things are less affected all the way out to the point that they're totally dry. Unless something changes to alter the flow of demons into the Worldwound, and their ability to escape the wardstones in some dramatic event (AKA, an AP or your campaign) this balance of power is likely to remain unchanged. This is also to say nothing of Mendev and its crusaders, which is a huge target jumping up and down poking the demons.
Lastwall simply isn't a threat. That's not their way. Lastwall and Ustalav don't really like each other, but they don't dislike each other either. I suspect trade is common, if not brisk. Lastwall is a martial nation, but one with a mandate to protect the south against orcs, the threat of the Whispering Tyrant, and other foes. Throwing forces into war against Ustalav would be meaningless. First, they have little to gain - they've self sufficient already and (the current leaders) aren't really interested in material wealth and power. Second, even if did invade, Ustalav is a sizable country that they wouldn't have the troops to hold. Third, Lastwall itself is not safe from orc threats, taking the brunt of humanoid aggression (they're in much the same loud target jumping up and down position as Mendev, especially as they'll strike out against gathering orc threats). Thus, any forces they committed to a campaign against Ustalav would weaken their flanks, exposing them to opportunistic orc attacks. If the main forces of Lastwall are stretched across a neighboring country in a fruitless war, the numerous villages across their western hinterlands have little defense, undermining what is likely a significant portion of the country's breadbasket, to say nothing of causing uprising among the populace. More details on Lastwall and their relationship with Belkzen can be found in Pathfinder Adventure Path #11.
Razmiran. I can't tell you anything about the Razmiri military. If there's any mention of it in the description in the Inner Sea World Guide I've missed it. What I do know is that Razmiran is not a united country. With a faith forced upon the people and a ruler supported only out of fear, the people are unlikely to give their lives for a national cause. This seems especially true with communities like Whispertruth, a hidden community opposed to Razmir's rule, and when the description of every other community aside from Thronestep addresses national dissent. A nation already at odds with itself is not likely to strengthen its foundation at home by throwing lives into a pointless war (at least, not with the current leadership) - especially when their most likely point of attack, the border with Varno, is widely held as a haunted, accursed killing ground few Razmiri have even been bold enough to settle. As a final point on this topic, I took a look at the populations attributed to each country. This is by no means a hard and fast description of martial strength and isn't meant to be an all encompassing census of every soul in the nation, but, there is a significant disparity. Arm chair generals may do with that information what they will.
At the end of the day, it ultimately comes down to what you want to do with your campaign. If you want to have orcs or demons or River Kingdoms warlords or armadas from Nirmathas, or invasions of inevitables steamroll Ustalav, that's totally your call. That said, we've set up all of the nations in the Inner Sea World Guide to have certain themes and thus prove well suited to specific types of campaigns. Again, if you want to have a campaign based on war, tactics, and national conquest, feel free to set it in and around Ustalav, however, I can't help but feel like the River Kingdoms, Mendev, Moltune, the Realm of the Mammoth Lords, Brevoy, Nex, or Geb might all make more satisfying settings than a land designed for horror and more subtle experiences. But to each his own.
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You can imagine Ustalav as being the eye of the storm.
Lastwall pressures Belkzen, sucking up most of their energy. The crusade does the same to the Worldwould demons, which is why all that action happens on that border rather than spilling over elsewhere. The Numerians are their own check and balance, the Black Soveriegn had a hard enough time enforcing his will outside the cities, nevermind invadin elsewhere. The tech is as much a hiderance as a help, as it's not fully controlled or understood, and they've got giant killer battle robots running rampant like buletts in heat. So you have this doughnut of violence and mayhem with Ustalav in the middle, left pretty much to it's own devices.
--- MY issue with suspension of disbelief with Ustalav is it's attempt to have a population both disbelieving and embrasing "Superstition" in the context of a fantasy game. It's hard to explain why on the one hand you'd have a peasantry that embrases 'superstitions' while the upper classes dismisses those superstitions and (at lease in Calphas) believe that the supernatureal isn't even real. I understand they want to capture that Hammer Film/victorian gothic horror trope of the men of reason confronting the unreasonable, expressed as the peasants having silly superstitions that turn out to be true.... but PCs aren't those men of reason - they deal in the supernatural all the time. Their problem would be wondering why would the peasants embrace 'supersition', which is magic that *doesn't work*, when magic that *works* is right at hand.
A minor tweak that fixes that for me, and makes for a more interesting problem for the PCs to cope with is to up the importance of the Church of Pharasma, and outlaw true magic as witchcraft. Breaks down like this:
Becuase of their history with the Whispering Tyrant, the chruch of Pharasma has over-reacted in their dogma so ALL magic is suspect. In their attempts to clamp a lid on their chronic undead/necromancy problem, they ban all of it. The only 'legal' real magic is divine magic performed by their sect of Pharasma. All other real magic is witchcraft, and given the spanish inquisition treatment. Paradoxically, however, fake magic & 'superstition' is encouraged. This is in order to feed the common people's need to feel like they have some magic they can use to protect themselves agains the horrors of the night, but also to confound those who want to study real magic by muddying the waters with a lot of hokum. So, when the inquisitors are brought into town, if they find someone practicing or believing some impotent superstition, it's declares 'white magic' and dismissed. But if they find real magic use - it's the stake or the rope for the witch.
Add to this scenario that there's also a hypocracy that the church will often turn a blind eye to the rich and powerful practicing real magic, and you have an interesting setting that rationalises Ustalavs flavor, and puts PCs in an interesting position -
They have to be careful how they use magic, or may face a wichhunt.
This allows one type of story that's almost impossible to tell in a fantasy game: The murder mystery. Hobbled in their ability to use magic to determine lies, detect evil, etc. you can more easily have a story where the PCs need to use conventional detective work to find a culprit. But better still, you'll have the added spice of them possibly being able to use that spell... if they dare risk it!
I like the concept of Ustalav just fine, but occasionally it makes me wonder how "normal folks" survive in a country seemingly brimming with hostile undead! (Or have most of those been cleansed from the country??)
In a lot of ways, the place seems like one of those fabled "bad spots" where reality's a bit thinner than it ought to be. (And I suspect a lot of this will be touched upon in the next "issue" of CARRION CROWN...)
Cheers, JohnH / Wanda
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MY issue with suspension of disbelief with Ustalav is it's attempt to have a population both disbelieving and embrasing "Superstition" in the context of a fantasy game. It's hard to explain why on the one hand you'd have a peasantry that embrases 'superstitions' while the upper classes dismisses those superstitions and (at lease in Calphas) believe that the supernatureal isn't even real. I understand they want to capture that Hammer Film/victorian gothic horror trope of the men of reason confronting the unreasonable, expressed as the peasants having silly superstitions that turn out to be true.... but PCs aren't those men of reason - they deal in the supernatural all the time. Their problem would be wondering why would the peasants embrace 'supersition', which is magic that *doesn't work*, when magic that *works* is right at hand.
But superstition isn't just magic that doesn't work. Superstition in Ustalav is just as alive in the real world, giving people without control over the world's circumstances the illusion of a measure of control. At the base level, it's the same as you find in the real world. It's the horseshoe over the door to bring good luck, the gargoyles planted on buildings to ward off evil spirits, spinning around three times before getting into bed, and throwing salt over your shoulder. It's all the things we do in the real world out of habit, out of tradition, out of faith, and out of silly superstition, even when the most rational part of us knows that there's probably no such things as evil spirits, lurking devils, forces of good or bad luck, karma, predestination, etc, etc, etc.
So if superstition is as pervasive as we find it in our world, a world where there is no conclusive proof of the supernatural, do you think a world where all the supernatural things we can imagine would have more or fewer proscriptions against such things? I've obviously taken the stance of more.
For heroes and world shaping characters, such doesn't matter much. If you have the ambition, talent, destiny (whatever have you) to rise above the CR 1/2 or lower peasantry that occupies the background of every town and city description in Golarion, you're not going to be concerned about what Auntie Cee in Cesca has to say about fresh picked turnips and how they ward off gremlins, or about how in Vieland its bad luck to have bedroom windows facing west. If you have a problem, you cast magic missile or you swing a +1 sword - problem solved. Life isn't going to be so easy for those other folks, though. Most villagers living in rural communities are poorly educated, have poor access to news, and don't travel - much like the medieval peasants they're based upon. They probably know about orcs and werewolves and vampires and goblins and ghosts and all the general boogins, but the vast majority aren't going to be able to tell you the difference between a lamia matriach and a leng spider. And fortunately, those things aren't really a part of their world. They harvest, they have families, they worry about proletarian concerns, and for the most part don't have to worry about magical things. The only interaction most probably have with such things are the local priest, maybe a hedge wizard or two, maybe a bard who knows a few tricks, and so on and so forth. But aside from healing a lame horse or fixing a busted plow, what good does it do them? There's not a spell that will bring the crop in, there's not a spell to sink a new well, there's not a spell to give them a nicer house. At least, not at the level Joe Everyman Peasant is going to be interacting with magic. And even the magic they might have access to in their burgs costs coin. Lots of coin. Gold pieces might be nothing to adventurers, but coppers and silvers are the coin of the realm for most folks.
So if they know magic exists and could help their lives, why don't they just learn it themselves? In short, because they're NPC peasants, not PCs. They don't possess the ingrained talent, ambition, and fate the PCs do. They're the ditch diggers, not the heroes, and the world of character classes simply aren't for the vast majority of them. But that doesn't mean that such things aren't appealing. That doesn't mean they don't see the local cleric of Pharasma say prayers and call down supernatural aid. That doesn't mean they don't hear stories of weird creatures with weakness to obscure metals or purifying flames. That doesn't mean they don't know that there are rites and symbols and signs and substances that can ward away things that might seek to do honest common folk harm. And so stories of such things pass around and around, and they spread through communities and generations, and they become common knowledge, or get elaborated upon, or are misrepeated, or maybe were just fantasy stories to begin with.
And eventually, in boroughs and neighborhoods where families have lived for generations and the best sons and daughters move away to greater things, you get these folkloric stew pots, where everyone knows vampires can't go out during the day, that albino cows give poison milk, and that if you don't check under your bed every night the boo hag will plant wasp hives there. And when your town priest, you local hedge wizard, you village bard, even your soon to run off PC-potential youths were born and raised with everyone they've ever known believing these things, who's going to tell these people they're wrong? And even if they are told they're wrong, why would those people dismiss the beliefs that were good enough for their parents, and their parents parents? The beliefs that, even if they might not help, they probably don't conclusively hurt? And who among them can tell what is a ward against evil or the true weakness of an evil creature, or pure superstition?
Now lets introduce the everyday nobleman into this. He's the landlord, the aristocrat, the one who's been told all his life that he's richer, smarter, and more worthy than the lower classes. Sometimes this is true. Often it is not. But there's a class disparity that basically resolves as what is "noble" is good and what is "common" is base, dirty, or backward. So when the lord's workers try to tell him that they don't want to work today because it's the first Moonday after the Hunter's Moon, he tells the sots to stop being lazy and get back to work! And if that's the sort of foolishness lazy peasants come up with just to spend a day napping or whatever it is lazy peasants do, how can anyone who calls themselves a noble trust anything that comes out of their mouths? Hanging crystals in windows to catch good luck. Having priests bless water so it will ward away evil. Wasting good silver to make a dagger. It's all peasant rubbish. Right?
That's probably what a lot of nobles think. They're not in dungeons or encountering archmages and daemons, so while they're likely better traveled and informed then their tenants, most of their interaction with magic is likely either religious, for entertainment purposes, or the occasional interesting curiosity. But it's not something that's going to make them rich or make their lives easier or more comfortable without being a frivolous investment. This only gets reinforced when it comes to groups of nobles, each posturing to seem the most enlightened, the hardest on their workers, or whatever else makes them look good in the eyes of their peers. Who wants to say in front of their neighbor, who's just as rich and just as haughty and just as gossipy that they put stock in the stories their chambermaid and cook tell? So in many situations like this, such folk wisdom gets dismissed. Now, a few open minded nobles or a few with actually decent educations or knowledge of magic might think otherwise and acknowledge the truth in such tales, even if it is spotty, or try to inform their peers of their misinformed positions. But that's a ridiculously uphill battle with little to gain. (Try telling your barber or mechanic or barista about RPGs, how fun they are, and how they should learn more if you want a taste of what this conversation is probably like - just time how fast the topic gets changed.) Is such a haughty group right in their opinions or the way of the world? No. But since when did that ever matter to anyone. And when their days are more likely to take them from manor to office or field or court than to the local tomb or dungeon, what bearing do tales of vampires and sea serpents and winged horses have to their day to day business? Every now and then something wondrous might slap them in the face, but how's that different from the circus coming to town or seeing a elephant? The existence of one curiosity does not necessarily prove to existence of all curiosities, or even more of the same, and people prove fantastically adept at retaining their own beliefs, habits, and prejudices, especially when they serve them and the group their apart of well.
So, does this mean a noble in Caliphas would say magic isn't real? Of course not. There's plenty of evidence that magic exists, it's just questionable how worthwhile it is to him outside of expensive healing options and entertainment.
Would he say ghosts are just stories? Well, maybe yes, maybe no. It's doubtful that he's ever seen a ghost, but he's probably heard lots of stories, some from credible sources, some from less than credible sources. So you'd probably get answers both ways.
What about a goblin? Well, they're not common in Ustalav, so he's probably never seen one, but reports, books, stories from credible sources, etc are probably enough to convince him that they are. Though there's always going to be some people who only believe what they see. So again, you might get both sides of the coin here again.
Orcs? Orcs are real. They're too present, too much a part of the country's and its families histories not to be real. Every family worth its salt likely has a antique sword that slayed an orc or fifty hanging over a fireplace.
Other undead? This is a tricky one. The Whispering Tyrant and his conquest of the nation is definitely part of Ustalav's history, so he's going to accept that evil magic can make the dead walk. But he's not going to know the difference between a skeleton and a wight and a huecuva and a dread knight. This event is also centuries past, so the details have gotten blurry in the public mind and there's been enough elaborations and distortions to make this time period hazy, blurring the lines between history and legendry. So while he'd probably accept that evil magic can make the dead walk, he's probably going to be real skeptical that someone who isn't an evil wizard out of history or a romance could do this.
What about the threat posed by a giant worm that was killed a few thousand years ago and whose corpse lies in a magma flow under a mountain? Utter fiction.
The big thing to remember with all of this is that PCs are special. Even having PC classes is special. But those who don't have accesses to these classes and can't be expected to travel the width and breadth of the world can't be expected to have the view PCs have, much less the one we as GMs have paging through our copies of the Inner Sea World Guide. I wouldn't expect most folks to even know about all the stuff going on in the description of the town they live in, much less their entire country. But this doesn't make them stupid. In fact, it helps make them more realistic. Let farmers worry about their farms, let shipping moguls worry about trade winds, and let PCs worry about liches, dragons, ancient magics, and everything else. And for those worries, there's plenty of interesting and flavorful little folk remedies, charms, rhymes, gestures, and other superstitions to take care of them. Especially in Ustalav.
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I like the concept of Ustalav just fine, but occasionally it makes me wonder how "normal folks" survive in a country seemingly brimming with hostile undead! (Or have most of those been cleansed from the country??
I promise I'll keep this one short.
Remember, these books are meant to focus on the interesting adventure locations. So if a town write-up only has two sentences about it and one of them talks about the cursed manor full of ghost gremlins, that's not meant to imply there's no pastry chefs or lamp lighters in town. Many places are perfectly pleasant little getaways, even if there is something creepy going on down that one alley.
There also tends to be a nice thing about "that one alley," or cemetery, or ruin, or whatever it might be: it's usually just that place. As in, it's a creepy place, and the things that make that place creepy tend not to leave - at least, not without good reason. Spooks from haunted crypts, mummies lying a old sarcophagi, golems in ruined laboratories, etc, they tend not to come out and pester folks unless they're pestered first. It's when that status quo gets tampered with that problems happen. That's a big reason why villagers all know about "that one place" where you just don't go. This is also a big part of why adventurers generally don't have a great reputation - they're the ones most likely to go and rile up trouble.
As for there being a lot of haunted towns and sites in Ustalav, that’s totally true. In general, in the shorter descriptions of spots on the map, I tended to hit on one big name haunt/spook/adventure hook per map tag. When you’re looking at a few dozen of these tags I can totally see how it looks like there’s a lot going on—and don’t get me wrong, Ustalav is meant to be spook central—but does that mean that each of these places is under threat from the creepy stuff going on there? No way. Try shifting perspective and instead of looking at all the creepy things going on in the entire nation, just look at the place you want to set your adventure. In fact, ask yourself if that place is any more haunted than the place you grew up? I grew up in Baltimore Maryland and here’s three websites dedicated to dozens of hauntings in just my home town. And that’s not even mentioning the Hell House we used to dare each other to run up to in high school, the broken gravestone split down the middle with a meal rod sticking out of it near my house, or general urban legends like Bloody Mary. And I’m sure this doesn’t even hold a candle to some of the stories our friends in Europe and elsewhere around the world could tell.
So yeah, there’s a lot of creepy stuff going on in Ustalav. But, turns out, there’s a lot of creepy stuff going on in any old town and folks manage well enough. Don’t worry about the old Ustalavs, they know not to stick their noses where they don’t belong. It’s those adventurers you’ve got to worry about.
(So much for keeping it short...)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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If I might address Wanda's point (hopefully short than Wesley's reply)
Compare the first Ravenloft boxed set to later versions. Originally, the domains of dread were like 'rest stops from hell' You entered Ravenloft, you didn't live there. It was basically 'fight scary crap until the DM lets you out.'
Subsequent versions of Ravenloft (Led, IIRC, by Steve Miller's design) got away from the above model and got more into the 'Campaign setting' aspects. Indeed, the last 3.x products produced under White Wolf really worked on making the demiplane of dread a full campaign setting, where you could run entire campaigns and never see a darklord (or, if your DM was really good, never even realize you're advancing a Darklord's agenda)
Now because of the size limitations, Rule of fear can be read as 'Ravenloft 1.0' the APs (and Mr. Schneider's wondeful essays above) help to expand the world.
Just like the big book of Taldor doesn't point out the noble who lives much more meagerly than his neighbors, pouring his treasure into keeping his domain livable for his serfs, or go into detail about Merchants abusing 'free folk' in Andoran, Rule of fear doesn't go into the life of a peseant.
Thank you Wes for a great few reads.
The stuff on superstitions was invaluable for any world builder.
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I don't disagree with most of that. My point was the essense of the gothic horror story they're trying to capture comes from a perspective of believing the supernatual isn't real, interacting with people who think it is, and then being shocked to realise the supersitition is true.
Take for example a bit of the Ustalav lore that involves a peat bog mummmy that the locals say 'weeps tears that heal' - Such accounts dismissed as superstition by respectable Ustalavs, but many shady organisations have tried to buy it, and all are refused. That's a tantilising hook for a Call of Chulhu adventure - it confronts the investigators with mysterious powers that offend science and reason, and raises profound questions: Could it be true? What does it mean if it is?
But in a fantasy world the whole dynamic is backward. To PCs it's just another magic item - "Healing tears? Nice. I've got CLW, CMW, potions and scroll that do the same thing. Why are all you peasants shocked by that? A town of your size has 3rd level spells available for hire and there's a 75% chance I can buy a potion of healing at a local shop right now" ...and how *do* the peasants react when the PC cast spells? Like the 0 level detect magic that will say whether the mummy is magic or not, ending the mystery right there? And why hasn't anyone already done that?
Rather than handwave it, I rather follow the premises to a logical conclusion. There must be a reason why things are different here, and have the PCs deal with that.
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I've recently been reading a lot old Serbian folktales. The thing you have to remember is that in these sorts of tales, there are all sorts of nasty things out there, but one of them keeps the other in check, and regular mortals manage to deal with them through a combination of knowledge and luck.
Let's say you've got a house somewhere in Ustalav. It's a perfectly ordinary little house, all except for one little door which the mistress of the house makes certain to keep locked and cautions her children never to unlock. The locks are checked each night before going to bed, just to make sure, and the children are too fearful and obedient to open that little locked door.
The orcs who invade, or the demons, or whoever? They discount the goodwive's tale as a foolish superstition.
Their gnawed and bloody bones are all that's found.
That's the sort of story that routinely comes out of Ustalav. And that's just what happens when you invade some lonely little house which only has honest peasants living there. You think the castle doesn't have something worse in the basement? The ghost of some dead queen who pushes the occasional parlormaid down the stairs if they don't dust to her liking? What do you think the queen's ghost is going to do if some orc chieftain invades and tells his horde to make themselves at home?
Ustalav is a deadly place. The orcs make a big show of savagery, but they're petrified of what goes on across the border, and apart from a quick raid, want nothing to do with it.
That's a great take on it!
I've recently been reading a lot old Serbian folktales.
KAM, any books or other sources you'd recommend in particular from these?
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I've recently been reading a lot old Serbian folktales.KAM, any books or other sources you'd recommend in particular from these?
Well, the one I'm reading right now is particularly accessible, and moreover there's an online version of it at the Hathi Trust. Hero Tales and Legends of the Serbians, by Woislav M. Petrovich. At the back are a bunch of fairytales, but the sort of fairytales where you get a room filled with severed heads all of which can still talk or where the bad brother ends up being torn in four pieces by the villy. None of this using magic or charms or having someone dance themselves to death like in "Giselle." The beautiful fairy maidens, when they get ticked off, just rip someone apart with their bare hands.
That's the sort of thing that I'd think happens in Ustalav all the time, and why peasants should properly be terrified by the fey.
I've recently been reading a lot old Serbian folktales.KAM, any books or other sources you'd recommend in particular from these?Well, the one I'm reading right now is particularly accessible, and moreover there's an online version of it at the Hathi Trust. Hero Tales and Legends of the Serbians, by Woislav M. Petrovich. At the back are a bunch of fairytales, but the sort of fairytales where you get a room filled with severed heads all of which can still talk or where the bad brother ends up being torn in four pieces by the villy. None of this using magic or charms or having someone dance themselves to death like in "Giselle." The beautiful fairy maidens, when they get ticked off, just rip someone apart with their bare hands.
That's the sort of thing that I'd think happens in Ustalav all the time, and why peasants should properly be terrified by the fey.
Vila (or Veela or Vily or however it' spelled) are my favorite Fey. There are Vila in the Bestiary of Tales of the Margreve as well as a version in "Red Sails" - Dragon #290.
I've recently been reading a lot old Serbian folktales.KAM, any books or other sources you'd recommend in particular from these?Well, the one I'm reading right now is particularly accessible, and moreover there's an online version of it at the Hathi Trust. Hero Tales and Legends of the Serbians, by Woislav M. Petrovich. At the back are a bunch of fairytales, but the sort of fairytales where you get a room filled with severed heads all of which can still talk or where the bad brother ends up being torn in four pieces by the villy. None of this using magic or charms or having someone dance themselves to death like in "Giselle." The beautiful fairy maidens, when they get ticked off, just rip someone apart with their bare hands.
That's the sort of thing that I'd think happens in Ustalav all the time, and why peasants should properly be terrified by the fey.
Fantastic! There's also an epub version over at Archive.org that's going on my Nook. Thanks!
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I don't disagree with most of that. My point was the essense of the gothic horror story they're trying to capture comes from a perspective of believing the supernatual isn't real, interacting with people who think it is, and then being shocked to realise the supersitition is true.
Take for example a bit of the Ustalav lore that involves a peat bog mummmy that the locals say 'weeps tears that heal' - Such accounts dismissed as superstition by respectable Ustalavs, but many shady organisations have tried to buy it, and all are refused. That's a tantilising hook for a Call of Chulhu adventure - it confronts the investigators with mysterious powers that offend science and reason, and raises profound questions: Could it be true? What does it mean if it is?
But in a fantasy world the whole dynamic is backward. To PCs it's just another magic item - "Healing tears? Nice. I've got CLW, CMW, potions and scroll that do the same thing. Why are all you peasants shocked by that? A town of your size has 3rd level spells available for hire and there's a 75% chance I can buy a potion of healing at a local shop right now" ...and how *do* the peasants react when the PC cast spells? Like the 0 level detect magic that will say whether the mummy is magic or not, ending the mystery right there? And why hasn't anyone already done that?
Rather than handwave it, I rather follow the premises to a logical conclusion. There must be a reason why things are different here, and have the PCs deal with that.
The Maid of Anactoria is one of hundreds of plot hooks in Rule of Fear that GMs should feel free to develop however they please. Personally, though, I think it'd be a shame for her to be dismissed as a glorified wand of cure light wounds when her descriptions suggest prophecies and miracles.
Even if that were all she did, though, that'd still be nothing for a small town to scoff at. At even once per day, 50 gp of additional daily income (the price of one potion of cure light wounds) that's a total lifestyle change for someone (probably several someones) who would otherwise be peat farmers. These folks aren't making adventure cash after all.
But the strangeness and mystery could really go in any of a thousand different directions. As soon as you start thinking about all the people who pay to see pseudo-famous taxidermies in modern day cabinets of curiosities or pilgrims who go on lengthy journeys just to see the "miracle" of a statue of a crying saint, possibilities start unfolding. Also, who keeps the Maid and her cottage? Who is admitted? Who found it? What is the common resident's interaction with it? Is it a weird magic item (and, if so, why did this corpse turn into one and how?) Is it a monster with a weird ability and secret agenda? Is it just a trick to put the town on the map? Is it a haunt or other unquiet spirit? And if so, what might it want? What do other groups want with it (while Lepidstadt University could have purely archeological interests, what about the Aspis Consortium? [might they know something the villagers don't?). What is the effect of casting detect magic on the thing? And if it detects as being non-magical and still sheds healing tears, what's that mean? Who was the maid? (A Kellid priestess who died fleeing Varisian invaders? A sacrifice to the Old Gods? The princess of some even older native group?) What else might lie buried in the marshes? Could there be more "maids?" And if so, what in the marshes are granting these ancient corpses their weird abilities? Are all the corpses female? If so, why? If the whole thing is a sham, who's been propagating the stories and why? And if magical effects are being faked, how?
Any answers to any of these questions are viable next steps GMs should feel free to take from those four sentences on Anactoria. Readers also shouldn't shy away from creating their own logics. Probably the most interesting part of any RPG campaign setting is that it's a shared world, shared not just between the publishing company, designers, and authors, but also every GM. Any story any GM wants to tell, any nuance he wants to expand upon, any question he wants to come up with his own solution to, he's not just free to do so, but is encouraged to - it's why the setting exists, in fact.
Readers interested in seeing how Ustalav is or isn't different from other parts of Golarion can, of course, get a feel for that in Rule of Fear, but can also see it in action, if you will, in any volume of the Carrion Crown Adventure Path. I think most readers will find we haven't gone out of our ways to make Ustalav's people feel different from the common folk of any other Adventure Path. They're not any more or less oblivious to the dangers around them than the residents of any other country, or really any better or worse informed. This is mostly because such background characters and their day-to-day lives generally aren't focused on, leaving it up to a campaign's GM to bring them and the nation's culture to life however they see fit. While the adventures and tons of other content definitely offer suggestions, to each his own.
At the end of the day, if a GM wants to make Ustalav feel like a high fantasy nation where everyone knows all about magic and monsters, he's free to do that and the country works that way. If he wants to run it especially subtly, with the players being ill informed about magic and dubious or suspicious of the supernatural, he's free to do that, and the country works that way. Or, if he wants to split the difference and try his hand at combining mystery and the unexplained in a world where magic does exist, but at a level where not everyone in intimately familiar, he can do that too, and the country works that way. It's all about deciding what you want to build, picking the tools you want to use, and then making it what you want. I've already given folks 64-pages of ideas and preferences for Ustalav—and I'll probably go right on throwing out even more on here—but in general, now it's out of my hands and up to individual GMs to do with the setting what they will, whatever that might be.
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Love this thread so much.
Makes me wish I could read Rule of Fear that much more. (CC player here)
Yeah. We totally did the book in 3D and with scratch-N-sniff stickers too! Sucks that you have to wait to read it! :P
I've recently been reading a lot old Serbian folktales.KAM, any books or other sources you'd recommend in particular from these?
Frazer's Golden Bough is packed full of stuff. Try and find the full on version if you can. Loads of bits about Sympathetic Magic which seems to be wide spread in Ustalav.
And we we all use sympathetic magic today to a certain extent... I'm sure everyone can come up with something :D| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I picture the undead in Ustalav's border regions as fiercely defensive of "their" territory. Like Vlad Tepes, many of them revel in the destruction of their land's enemies.
I picture isolated hamlets with no defenses to speak of, whose true protection creeps out from crypts and sarcophagi once the sun goes down. The peasants shudder in their hovels at night, but their sinister defenders annihilate raiding orcs or predatory bandits.
"These are my people. I have watched over them for centuries, like a shepherd cares for his flock."
Then, in the morning, another dozen orcish heads adorn the bloodstained poles at the edge of the village...
Yeah. We totally did the book in 3D and with scratch-N-sniff stickers too! Sucks that you have to wait to read it! :PLove this thread so much.
Makes me wish I could read Rule of Fear that much more. (CC player here)
Don't worry overly much, though. One of those scratch-N-sniff stickers has the equivalent of a "rotting corpse" smell. While that might be fun to gross out your friends, it's not one you'd want to accidentally inflict on yourself. ;-)
I think something that almost never comes into consideration is that, most peasents and poor villagers will never see a magic item in their life. Most will never meet an adventurer, because in a standard world they are rare. So whilke they arent so rare that theyve never seen a wizard or cleric, they are rare enough that theyre mysterious and frightening. Add the fact that adventurers bring trouble and generally danger, and youll see why in Ustlav for instance something so low powered is "whatever" to the adventurer but mystical and awesome to the townsfolk.
Makes me think of the Sunless Citidel adventure for 3.0. The hook for it is that once a year a tribe of goblins from this citidel that was in a ravine (an earthquake had swallowed it years before) would come trade with the town. They would offer a golden apple that cured any disease or damage (or something Im paraphrasing here). But only one apple. A party of adventurers generally would kind of scoff at the idea considering you can get the same effects for 350-500gp and theyre easier to make so the once a year bit isnt that big. The townsfoilk though traded with the goblins in a heartbeat knowing the apple could do so much for them. The big catch was theyd plant the seeds to make more golden apple trees but they saplings would vanish, which they figured the goblins stole them to keep the control of the apples. The pcs get sent to see whats up...
Thats a great hook. The mummy who cries CLW tears is an amazing concept especially if you add Wes' ideas of are there more, and why were they made. I can envision a swamp temple where there are hundreds of these things floating in swamp water left over from some serpentfolk mass sacrifice or Lizardfolk ritual entombing or something primal like that.
I've recently been reading a lot old Serbian folktales.KAM, any books or other sources you'd recommend in particular from these?Frazer's Golden Bough is packed full of stuff. Try and find the full on version if you can. Loads of bits about Sympathetic Magic which seems to be wide spread in Ustalav.
And we we all use sympathetic magic today to a certain extent... I'm sure everyone can come up with something :D
Thanks, Spacelard, I've got two different versions of the GB. Where are you finding a "full on" version? My understanding is that Frazier kept adding to it throughout his life, and it was something like 8+ volumes in its latest version.