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Hi, I'm fairly new to the forums and figured I would post here my backup build for Society should my current Ranger kick the bucket. While scouring various boards and glancing at the Inner Sea Guide i took notice of the Dervish Dance feat and the idea of relying on Strength for the extra damage finally a backseat so i could put more focus into Dex, Int, and Con. Since DD allowed scimitars to count towards a viable weapon for the Duelist and I've always wanted to use one as prestige one day i figured now we have something useful. So the two best classes that I have found that can make use of the Attributes I'm focused on and Duelist class are the Magus or Rogue. I'm currently leaning toward the Rogue(Swashbuckler/Scout) but the earliest i can get DD with my current build is level 3.
Human Rogue
Rogue 1-Dodge, Mobility
Rogue 2-Weapon Finesse (Finesse Rogue)
Rogue 3-Dervish Dance
Rogue 4-Combat Expertise (Combat Trick)
Rogue 5-Spring Attack
Rogue 6-Whirlwind Attack (Combat Trick)
This is as far as I've got feat wise until i hit BAB +6 for Vital Strike which would be around level 9 because the Rogue needs to go to 8 for the Scout's Skirmisher ability. My real problem is the early levels before DD. How can the rogue contribute to combat when he can't hit anything at early levels except with a stealthy approach with a bow? Any help and advice is appreciated because I have always played a Full Caster of some form until this Ranger i currently use.
I don't know what your dex is, but once you have finesse, your hit bonus is the same with your weapon as it is with a bow; BAB + dex.
Once you add DD, your damage gets the same bonus with your scimitar. You'd only want to stay back and shoot at first level. DD makes the scimitar and melee your highest damage output at 3rd.
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Well you've got one big problem right out of the gate. Rogues aren't naturally proficient with Scimitars and Swashbuckler gets rid of a rather useful and iconic rogue ability to get that proficiency. You also wouldn't have BAB +4 at 5th level for Spring Attack.
You'd probably do better mixing Fighter and Rogue, it would give you more combat options while retaining some of the nice rogue abilities and skills.
Human Fighter/Rogue
Rogue 1: Dodge, Weapon Finesse
Fighter 1: Dervish Dance
Rogue 2: Combat Expertise, Weapon Training (Scimitar)
Rogue 3:
Rogue 4: Mobility, Spring Attack
Fighter 2: Whirlwind Attack?/Windstance?/Improved Feint?
Fighter 3: Vital Strike?/Greater Feint?
Duelist (However much) etc
You could take the Dawnflower Dervish fighter archtype from the inner sea primer and combine that with the Scout rogue archtype and you'd have some interesting survivability while charging. Might even want to grab the 4th level of Fighter for Weapon Specialization on your Scimitar.
You also can't take Combat Trick more then once either.
Actually, a rogue with the swashbuckler archetype can.
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Not realy needed. Trapfinding is not as important as most people think. If my choice is make a rogue better in combat or make them better with traps. I'll take better in combat every time. There are only ever a few traps in any game there is combat in every game and alot more of it then traps. And realy untill you get to CR 16+ magic traps are a joke to any rogue with evasion.
My real problem is the early levels before DD. How can the rogue contribute to combat when he can't hit anything at early levels except with a stealthy approach with a bow?
Yeah, that's one issue with ability to... feats, it's an even bigger problem when you build an zen archer focused on wisdom who gets his wis for ranged at level 3. In your case, well, you won't be able to compare to the other chars at level 1 - that's one fast level. Rely on your party for that one level. As soon as you got finesse, you're an able combatant, your sneak damage should be high enough until you get DD.
Always remember one thing: You are a rogue. Rogues are skill monkeys. Use that, try to solve stuff without a fight or contribute in another way, intimidate your foes or cut some ropes in the background while your party keeps your foes attention - I don't mean "you suck at fighting, go doing something else", just don't reduce yourself to "I suck until I got finesse and DD" or "I fight"
I think Morgen got it right about multi classing. I would recommend going 4 levels of Fighter to get weapons specialization. Also consider looking at the feat Piranha Strike from Sargava the Lost Colony. It is basically power attack for DEX. If you Go with a Half Elf with a Decent INT and take the favored class bonus to skills you will have plenty of skills even with the levels of fighter. This will also allow you to save the rogue talents for things feats cannot get.
Take the a couple of levels of fighter to start so you have a better chance to survive. Also wait for dodge and mobility till latter. Go for Weapon Finesses, and Dervish Dance at first. The Armor proficiencies and Armor training at 3rd are going to be a huge boost. This is going to allow you to use a Mithral Breastplate and still have a high DEX Bonus (+6).
Half Elf is going to give you the same skill bonus a human would until you get to Duelist. But it also gives you Skill Focus, Low Light Vision, a +2 save vs. Charms, and a bonus to Perception.
For your rogue talent go for Fast Stealth. Using stealth at a full move is going to get you a lot of sneak attacks.
I agree, you REALLY want Weapon Finesse at 1st level if your Stats are being built around that, if you don´t have the Feats, Mobility can wait for later... You won´t be able to use it with Scimitar right away of course (Dervish Dance can´t be taken until 3rd level because of Pre-Reqs), but you can use some other Finesse Weapon until then, say a Rapier that you describe as Scimitar-looking :-).
Trying to mix BOTH Rogue and Magus could be frustrating BAB wise...
If you don´t go with Magus, Fighter/Rogue mix can be very nice though.
Magus works very nicely because it´s extra action economy meshes perfectly with your weapon style.
Going with Magus counts as 1/2 levels of Fighter, so will let you get Wpn Spec. (along with Arcane Strike)
Taking 1 level of Fighter as mentioned lets you use Mithril Breastplate, and that works with Magus Light Armor Casting (no ASF). Probably EVENTUALLY you will outgrow the Max DEX on Mithril Breastplate, but until that point it will really help your AC, and still leaves you a bonus Feat, +1 BAB, and +2 Fort which are all good things down the line.
Vital Strike is awfully underwhelming for small-dmg weapons like Scimitar IMHO, you´re better off grabbing other dmg bonuses that apply to all attacks (incl. AoO) and multiply on Crits, not to mention ´combat utility´ feats that don´t do damage per se but really help out alot. Although it has both Power Attack and Imp. Bullrush as Pre-Req´s, I would say that Rhino Charge, also from Sargava Companion, could really match the style you´re going for. It lets you position yourself or otherwise use a Move Action AND Interrupt anything with a Charge... Pretty useful in my book. Starting with an 11 STR (easy to do, you usually end up with 1 or 2 floating points in point-buy) let´s you magically upgrade to 13 whenever convenient.
Vital Strike incidentally DOES NOT work with Spring Attack per RAW and PFS rules.
Personally, I would consider not taking Spring Attack, Mobility IS nice on it´s own, and in place of SPring Attack there´s tons of other stuff. Wind Stance is actually nice just from Core Rules, and Skill Focus: Acrobatics let´s you evade AoOs in ALOT more situations, but there´s also TONS of other stuff that´s cool. Lunge will be very nice to have also.
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Okay i really like the direction this is going in with the Fighter/Rogue combo actually. Now I even wonder if Skirmisher is worth going after or if I should just stick with the core Rogue and keep uncanny dodge and focus on flanking or keep the Scout archetype and make use of charging for sneak attack, because the main reason i was going for Scout was Skirmisher but if i go with 4 Fighter levels, then Duelist is out and when i cap at 12 for Society i will finally pick up Skirmisher at 12. So what do you think?
Thought they errata'd Vital Strike to work with Spring Attack? Heck, they make mention of a serpentfolk warrior using Greater Vital Strike and Spring Attack to smack up enemies and get out of range of their full attacks, so I'm pretty sure they ARE usable together.
==Aelryinth
I guess Serpentfolk just didn`t get the Errata note...
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Well what about a fighter2/rogue10 with the idea of taking both fighter levels first. in doing so at level 2 can put in the 2nd rank into dance needed for dervish dance so from there let the sneak attack build up.
Okay so Human Fighter/Rogue(Scout) would look something like this, 20 point buy
Str-7
Dex-18
Con-14
Int-14
Wis-12
Cha-12
(Maybe swap Cha and Str)
1 Fighter1-Weapon Finesse,Dodge,Piranha Strike
2 Fighter2-Dervish Dance
3 Rogue1-Combat Expertise
4 Rogue2-(Fast Stealth Rogue Trick)
5 Rogue3-Mobility
6 Rogue4-Spring Attack (Combat Trick)
7 Rogue5-Whirlwind Attack
And thats as far as I've made it because I feel like I'm missing something in the first half of this build but I'm not sure what.
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If you really want trapfinding, half-elves can swap out adaptability for a martial or exotic weapon proficency. I'd add a link, but doing that on a phone is a pain.
It's in the APG and PRD's Advanced Races section.
Trapfinding isn't really a problem as of now, its getting damage output going and not lacking behind too far behind feat wise
Are you suggesting using Dervish Dance and TWF/2WF together simultaneously?
Because that just doesn`t work at all.
DD = empty off-hand... That`s the first thing you should notice when reading that Feat.
Given you may have to be dropping the off-hand weapon / drawing it regularly when you need to switch between Full Attacks and Standard Action attaks, you probably would also need Quickdraw. I don`t know, that may be a viable 2WF Fighter/Dervish Dance/Duelist `switch-hitter` (1H/2WF) build, but it doesn`t seem like what the OP is going for.
OK... I read the RAI of DD as not working if you use any off-hand weapon, including Unarmed Strike, so it wouldn`t apply when 2WF, but that gets rid of the problems with switching weapons. It could be a valid Rules Question to bring to Paizo`s attention, though...
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FYI, Piranha Strike and Dervish Dance sadly don't work together. PS requires a light weapon to work, and DD requires a Scimitar which is a one-handed weapon.1 Fighter1-Weapon Finesse,Dodge,Piranha Strike
2 Fighter2-Dervish Dance
Thanks for that. For some reason i kept thinking that Dervish Dance made the scimitar usable as "light" and "piercing"...so far the build I've had in mind is taking an entirely new perspective...originally it was going to Spring Attack in and out of combat dealing sneak attack and now its taking on a whole new leaf and i actually like it. So lets keep this up and bring on some more ideas. And since Piranha Strike does not work what should go in?
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I would suggest looking at a 4-level dip into the Weapon Master fighter archetype: gives you Weapon Training with your Scimitar at level 3 and the option of weapon specialization at level 4. This removes some of the pain of not being able to use Piranha Strike.
Fill in with levels of Rogue and go Duelist if and when you want.
Also: don't dump STR below 10: it will hurt your ability for some useful skills, makes your damage SUCK until you get Dervish Dancer, and gives you a nasty penalty if you ever need to use a bow. 10/10/10 on STR/CHA/WIS isn't a bad option for you.
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I know alot of people disagree, and this may get me a lot of complaints, but why not try for good str and dex and not be as charismatic. You are already multiclassing into combat based classes, so you could focus entirely on combat and take scout for the charging sneak attack. This way you are useful at first level and don't need finesse feats.
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Be a ninja TWFing an Agile wakizashi in one hand and a Dragon Style* punch (wearing a cestus) fueled with Amulet of Mighty Fists (Agile) with the other -- keeps your sneak-attack damage in the game relative to the Dervish who forfeits all those delicious additional attacks.
You can min/max the dickens out of DEX>STR, so long as you have a plan for contributing/surviving before 4thn-change in PFS (when the AoMF becomes available depending on Fame score, with the +1/Agile weapon not long thereafter).
(*Acquire via dip into Fighter[Unarmed] at 1st.)