Whats the best way for PCs to shut down a monk NPC?


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Liberty's Edge

We had a monk in our group who recently retired his character because it was out of balance with the rest of the party, on the high side. He was a Dex-bumping monk, with Weapon Finesse and all that good stuff. His attack bonuses were higher than the barbarians, didn't do as much damage per hit, but DPS was probably the same or higher. He was also basically immune to melee attacks or anything requiring a saving throw. Monks in Pathfinder are pretty damn powerful.

The monk in question was a 12th level character, with an AC of over 40 when buffed with the druid's barkskin (and not much else), flurried in the +20s, and did quite a bit of damage when the druid cast strong jaw on him. I don't personally think he was so powerful that he needed to be retired, but he was far from being the weakest character in the party.

For another real-world monk, the group I am GMing has a monk (zen archer) who is level 15. 6 attacks with her bow per round, doing 2d6 damage per arrow (plus strength, magic, etc.), while retaining godlike saves. Easily the highest damage output per round in the group.

I think Pathfinder monks are pretty powerful.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Now in order to get 2 of the attacks he needs to stun or stager his opponent. Considering the save vs. on the stunning blow (staggered for 1d6+1 rounds) is a fortitude save of 23 he has a good chance to pull it off.

Just to nit pick, first he has to hit with the attack that he declares his stunning fist then it has to fail a fort save.

Assuming that you are only dealing with an AC of say 27 (and at 13th level this is not a given) and only a FORT save of +12 then you have a whopping 25% chance to succeed. Even then that doesn't mean that you automatically hit with those extra attacks. And that's not looking at some of the ACs that you could be facing at 13th level. A horned devil (CR 16, for a nice boss fight) is AC 35 unbuffed... with dispel good (at will) he's AC 39 if your monk is good aligned. At best you're looking at 19-20 to hit if not natural 20s! And before you cry foul a CR 13 Ice Devil is AC 32 unbuffed that you'll only hit 1/4 of the time. (Not to mention that their FORT saves are +18 and +15 respectively).

I guess I'm saying that its a bit disingenuous to say a good chance. This is different from say a magus being able to deliver a touch spell during a full attack action where ANY hit will deliver it.

Don't get me wrong, monks can be useful.. but they're not the end all be all that the OP had intimated. As you say a 13th level fighter PC will chew it up and likely not get more than scratched by it.

BTW- on 'standard wealth' did you use PC or NPC wealth?

-James


Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Here's an idea, have the monk carry around a couple lengths of rope.
round 1: dimension door next to you and grapple (his CMB is going to be higher)
round 2: uses move action to continue the grapple and pin. Use standard action to tie up. You are now helpless and unless you are a rogue his CMD is higher then your escape artist check.
round 3: uses a standard and move action to move you at up to half his speed away from your friends (uses a ki and increases speed even more)
round 4: coup d'grace
repeat

EDIT: forgot had to pin before tying up

Liberty's Edge

j b 200 wrote:

Here's an idea, have the monk carry around a couple lengths of rope.

round 1: dimension door next to you and grapple (his CMB is going to be higher)

Can't initiate a grapple after a dimension door. Using abundant step basically ends your turn.


Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

You could tie someone up w/o pinning them with a -10 penalty to CMB, but I don't know if that matters if you pass your first grapple check. the DC to get out of the ropes is 40+ (20 + 12 (monk lvl) + 4 (imp & greater grapple) + Str). Your speed at lvl 12 is about 70, so even at half speed you are outrunning every one else in the party

Abundant step is a move action

Liberty's Edge

j b 200 wrote:

You could tie someone up w/o pinning them with a -10 penalty to CMB, but I don't know if that matters if you pass your first grapple check. the DC to get out of the ropes is 40+ (20 + 12 (monk lvl) + 4 (imp & greater grapple) + Str). Your speed at lvl 12 is about 70, so even at half speed you are outrunning every one else in the party

Abundant step is a move action

Abundant step may be a move action, but it's as per the dimension door spell, which specifically states that you cannot take any other actions until your next turn after casting the spell. So, you can't abundant step and grapple.


Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Zonto wrote:
Abundant step may be a move action, but it's as per the dimension door spell, which specifically states that you cannot take any other actions until your next turn after casting the spell. So, you can't abundant step and grapple.

I stand corrected, but still you get my point. once that -5 Dex mod kicks in you are pretty much stuck tied up unless someone else unties you. Max Escape Artist is lvl+3(CS)+2(feat)-5, even rolling a 20 the monk has you beat easy.

Just skip abundant step, your Acrobatics is likely high enough to avoid all AoO, and with very little work your speed is 100+ so you can get to just about any person in combat w/ little to no problem, add that to the fact that you are likely ambushing so you can Abundant Step in the surprise round.


Quote:
His attack bonuses were higher than the barbarians, didn't do as much damage per hit, but DPS was probably the same or higher.

Not that I'm against monks or anything, but this is highly unlikely assuming they're at the same level and have equivalent gear. Especially since he was Dex-based.


Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
meabolex wrote:
Quote:
His attack bonuses were higher than the barbarians, didn't do as much damage per hit, but DPS was probably the same or higher.
Not that I'm against monks or anything, but this is highly unlikely assuming they're at the same level and have equivalent gear. Especially since he was Dex-based.

This is the problem with people saying Monks are weak. Monks aren't DEX based. Their stats are STA/WIS>CON>DEX or at the very least STA/WIS>DEX>CON..... you are a Melee fighter why would you say they're DEX based?


j b 200 wrote:
meabolex wrote:
Quote:
His attack bonuses were higher than the barbarians, didn't do as much damage per hit, but DPS was probably the same or higher.
Not that I'm against monks or anything, but this is highly unlikely assuming they're at the same level and have equivalent gear. Especially since he was Dex-based.
This is the problem with people saying Monks are weak. Monks aren't DEX based. Their stats are STA/WIS>CON>DEX or at the very least STA/WIS>DEX>CON..... you are a Melee fighter why would you say they're DEX based?

Dex is relevant to monks. They need it for AC, reflex saves, init, Acrobatics.

It's true that str is probably more important than dex, but dex is a secondary stat for monks. Not quite as important as str and wis, I agree, but not that far behind. I'd say more important than con.

Scarab Sages

KaeYoss wrote:

I played a monk. It was only to level 12, but he was already a nightmare. The GM really hated that character. :)

You had to see the look on that vrock's face when I abundant stepped onto a castle tower and then jumped him (he was hovering over the middle of the castle yard, telekinetically throwing rocks at the melee characters downstairs), grappling him mid-air.

Screw falling damage, he was on the ground, unable to get away, and the party hacked him to pieces while I made him hit himself with his claws!

abundant step works like dimensional door right? =D I guess you could dim. door above him and fall to grapple him the following round =)


Concerning the last OP message he was implying CotED.

This is not just a regular monk, so all simple arguments do fail.

Not trying to ruin anything infact this should be a spoiler.

So in mods where the Big Evil boss is there, he will have great resources to draw upon.

So reading up on the stat blocks, these paticular ones where beasts.

Considering the CR. A party should spend considerably amount of consumables on this fight.

So concerning a boss like this, what could help not specifically concerning a cleric.

Well first any type of Blanket combat spell. Deeper Darkness probably would of leveled the playing field.

Silence, or other blanket spells, also the simple grease spell would of been a huge huge bonus, even if the target didn't fail.

What else in these encounters a witch debuffer or a debuff cleric touch of chaos would change the encounter on the second or third round.


Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
KaeYoss wrote:

Dex is relevant to monks. They need it for AC, reflex saves, init, Acrobatics.

It's true that str is probably more important than dex, but dex is a secondary stat for monks. Not quite as important as str and wis, I agree, but not that far behind. I'd say more important than con.

Dex is important, but not any more or less important than it is to every other class out there.


LoreKeeper wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:
Mojorat wrote:
I sometimes wonder if the people who dismiss the monk so readily have ever seen one played competently. basically itbis best to assume the only way to make it hard for avmonk to get to something is hight. and eventually not that.

I played a monk. It was only to level 12, but he was already a nightmare. The GM really hated that character. :)

You had to see the look on that vrock's face when I abundant stepped onto a castle tower and then jumped him (he was hovering over the middle of the castle yard, telekinetically throwing rocks at the melee characters downstairs), grappling him mid-air.

Screw falling damage, he was on the ground, unable to get away, and the party hacked him to pieces while I made him hit himself with his claws!

Awesome :)

I have a monk that recently made level 11 or so - and to celebrate I bought a flying ki mat (or rather a flying carpet and a ki mat that I put ontop of the carpet). And my monk has Spring Attack to use with the flying carpet for great visual spectacles and troubled enemies.

My Lvl 10 monk choked out a lvl 11 or 12 cleric. the party witch dispelled the only thing preventing the grapple and then i held him in place while the party Killed all his minions then him. was no way he was going to break out of my 36 or so CMD or cast spells


KaeYoss wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:


No he won't. The summoned monster has about a 50% chance to hit him
What summoned monster? Unless you get the jump on the monk (which means getting enough time to summon something before combat starts in earnest), your chances of summoning something before he has you are remote.

The Bebelith that was summoned by the at least 13th level caster that monk was supposed to meet.

I don't know how other people run their casters but I always make sure mine have a very high chance of knowing about any incoming trouble makers by minions and/or alarm spells and so on. So even if it is 13 level party vs 13th level caster he will have at least the one round to get the spell off. He could could probably use planar binding to get something better. Of course that would be used to try to hold the fighter back before the caster eventually goes down.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:

But vs. an arcane caster he will be tough to beat.

No he won't. The summoned monster has about a 50% chance to hit him, and the CMD is high enough that he may fail the acrobatics check to get by him, assuming there is only one bebilith. Now assuming the party helps out, sure he can get to the wizard, but the monk is not the main threat here.

** spoiler omitted **...

A couple of things you missed. My 13th Level Dwarven Monk I used as an example has Cloud Step which lets him Air Walk for 30'. He also has a 60' movement on the ground. Most things only gets near me if I want them to. I can simply retreat until it goes away. You have also blown half of your highest level spells assuming you have at least a 26 INT. If you are a Wizard specializing in conjuration it will only last for 19 rounds. So unless this is a much higher level Wizard than the Monk not a problem.

Monks have a high WIS, but people seem to want to play them as stupid. Proper use of the appropriate tactics and settings will make any character tough.

You are are going to let the caster mill around for 13 to 26 rounds, really? Either you will come back into a worse situation or he just won't be there.


Zonto wrote:

We had a monk in our group who recently retired his character because it was out of balance with the rest of the party, on the high side. He was a Dex-bumping monk, with Weapon Finesse and all that good stuff. His attack bonuses were higher than the barbarians, didn't do as much damage per hit, but DPS was probably the same or higher. He was also basically immune to melee attacks or anything requiring a saving throw. Monks in Pathfinder are pretty damn powerful.

The monk in question was a 12th level character, with an AC of over 40 when buffed with the druid's barkskin (and not much else), flurried in the +20s, and did quite a bit of damage when the druid cast strong jaw on him. I don't personally think he was so powerful that he needed to be retired, but he was far from being the weakest character in the party.

For another real-world monk, the group I am GMing has a monk (zen archer) who is level 15. 6 attacks with her bow per round, doing 2d6 damage per arrow (plus strength, magic, etc.), while retaining godlike saves. Easily the highest damage output per round in the group.

I think Pathfinder monks are pretty powerful.

The Zen-Archer monk is nice in anyone's hand I believe, but other than that it is hard to play for many people.


Mojorat wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:
Mojorat wrote:
I sometimes wonder if the people who dismiss the monk so readily have ever seen one played competently. basically itbis best to assume the only way to make it hard for avmonk to get to something is hight. and eventually not that.

I played a monk. It was only to level 12, but he was already a nightmare. The GM really hated that character. :)

You had to see the look on that vrock's face when I abundant stepped onto a castle tower and then jumped him (he was hovering over the middle of the castle yard, telekinetically throwing rocks at the melee characters downstairs), grappling him mid-air.

Screw falling damage, he was on the ground, unable to get away, and the party hacked him to pieces while I made him hit himself with his claws!

Awesome :)

I have a monk that recently made level 11 or so - and to celebrate I bought a flying ki mat (or rather a flying carpet and a ki mat that I put ontop of the carpet). And my monk has Spring Attack to use with the flying carpet for great visual spectacles and troubled enemies.

My Lvl 10 monk choked out a lvl 11 or 12 cleric. the party witch dispelled the only thing preventing the grapple and then i held him in place while the party Killed all his minions then him. was no way he was going to break out of my 36 or so CMD or cast spells

Grapple checks vs concentration go off of CMB. Mathematically he should have had a chance. The cleric build can be just as important as the level. If he was a non melee cleric he should have had a brute type minion. If he was a fighting cleric he should have been buffed and barring bad rolls been able to put up a better fight against someone 2 levels below him.

I can probably beat up a level 11 cleric with a level 9 warrior, depending on how the cleric is built. That does not make a warrior a good class.

PS:Just to be clear I am not saying a monk can't contribute. What I am saying is that it requires you to have a certain level of system mastery that many players don't have.


Mcarvin wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:

I played a monk. It was only to level 12, but he was already a nightmare. The GM really hated that character. :)

You had to see the look on that vrock's face when I abundant stepped onto a castle tower and then jumped him (he was hovering over the middle of the castle yard, telekinetically throwing rocks at the melee characters downstairs), grappling him mid-air.

Screw falling damage, he was on the ground, unable to get away, and the party hacked him to pieces while I made him hit himself with his claws!

abundant step works like dimensional door right? =D I guess you could dim. door above him and fall to grapple him the following round =)

Yes, it's just like dimension door (except it's a move action).

That move you suggested might be problematic, though: When enemies notice their opponents teleporting into the air above them so they fall towards them, they usually suspect that those free-fall freaks are up to no good and be polite - fly out of the way. So the monk who does that will be on his way to a pretty smashing date with the ground.

Plus, I think you have to teleport somewhere you can stand on. Thin air does not count.

Plus, it's much better to port onto a high place (maybe trying to hide between rounds), letting him suspect you want a better vantage point from which to shoot, and then just jump out and do a flying tackle.

Won't work all the time, but the one time when the GM goes "You WHAT???" is totally worth it.


j b 200 wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:

Dex is relevant to monks. They need it for AC, reflex saves, init, Acrobatics.

It's true that str is probably more important than dex, but dex is a secondary stat for monks. Not quite as important as str and wis, I agree, but not that far behind. I'd say more important than con.

Dex is important, but not any more or less important than it is to every other class out there.

Monks can use it more than others because they get no armour proficiency. That means the dex is welcome, and they can put it as high as they want without it interfering with armour.

Monks also get more out of CMD than most other classes, because they usually actively work to get into situations where CMB/CMD matters, and dex contributes to CMD, so they want to get a decent dex for that, too.

Then there's the acrobatics part. Monks have a bigger focus in that than even rogues. And that's another dex thing.

It might not be the most important thing to them, but it's definitely higher on the priority list than for many other classes. Paladins tend to use it less. Cavaliers, too. Sorcerers and Wizards don't need it as much, either. Clerics, the same. Druids.


Step 1: Kill a medusa.
Step 2: Take her head.
Step 3: Show it to monk.

Seriously, though, I've seen a monk PC neutralized with a net. Don't see why the same wouldn't work against an NPC monk. Summoning a swarm of something that attacks Fort could be good too.

Dark Archive

I think that most people underestimate the Pathfinder Monk because they haven't scene an effective Pathfinder monk in action.


james maissen wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Now in order to get 2 of the attacks he needs to stun or stager his opponent. Considering the save vs. on the stunning blow (staggered for 1d6+1 rounds) is a fortitude save of 23 he has a good chance to pull it off.

Just to nit pick, first he has to hit with the attack that he declares his stunning fist then it has to fail a fort save.

Assuming that you are only dealing with an AC of say 27 (and at 13th level this is not a given) and only a FORT save of +12 then you have a whopping 25% chance to succeed. Even then that doesn't mean that you automatically hit with those extra attacks. And that's not looking at some of the ACs that you could be facing at 13th level. A horned devil (CR 16, for a nice boss fight) is AC 35 unbuffed... with dispel good (at will) he's AC 39 if your monk is good aligned. At best you're looking at 19-20 to hit if not natural 20s! And before you cry foul a CR 13 Ice Devil is AC 32 unbuffed that you'll only hit 1/4 of the time. (Not to mention that their FORT saves are +18 and +15 respectively).

I guess I'm saying that its a bit disingenuous to say a good chance. This is different from say a magus being able to deliver a touch spell during a full attack action where ANY hit will deliver it.

Don't get me wrong, monks can be useful.. but they're not the end all be all that the OP had intimated. As you say a 13th level fighter PC will chew it up and likely not get more than scratched by it.

BTW- on 'standard wealth' did you use PC or NPC wealth?

-James

Standard PC wealth. I will be the first to admit the Monk is not the be all, end all of characters. I just think they deserve more respect then most people give them.


wraithstrike wrote:

I can probably beat up a level 11 cleric with a level 9 warrior, depending on how the cleric is built. That does not make a warrior a good class.

PS:Just to be clear I am not saying a monk can't contribute. What I am saying is that it requires you to have...

Oh i agree with you, i just found that Before i played that character I sort of agreed with the On paper assumption monks were bad and the reasoning people gave.

then i played one and it did not co-incide with anything anyone had Said.

Hei Jung was all over the battlefield and her only real weakness was Flying things higher than 20 feet. or 25 if hasted. But i agree with you about the system mastery thing which i guess contributes to the image of their being a poor class.


Argus The Slayer wrote:
I think that most people underestimate the Pathfinder Monk because they haven't scene an effective Pathfinder monk in action.

I have only seen 1 monk be effective in actual play, and every time I hear a story online about one it is due to a GM not using what I would call a base tactic or allowing things that are not permissible by the rules.

That is why I don't view the class in high regard. Can it be effective? I think it can. Is it likely to be effective? I don't think so.


We are off-topic here. Did we ever help the OP out?


Wraithstrike brought up a very good point. That most people do not have the level of system mastery to properly play, or build a monk. This absolutely true. The monk is probably the most difficult class to play.

What I was suggesting in retreating was actually popping up taking some shots at the Wizard waiting for him to cast his spells and then leaving for a couple of hours. Come back after most if not all the spells have worn off. This tactic works well against any caster.

I would probably say that who wins any given encounter is more dependent on who's terms it takes place. Give a caster especially a cleric time to prepare and it favors him. Take the exact same character and catch him unprepared when he is not expecting combat he is toast.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Wraithstrike brought up a very good point. That most people do not have the level of system mastery to properly play, or build a monk. This absolutely true. The monk is probably the most difficult class to play.

What I was suggesting in retreating was actually popping up taking some shots at the Wizard waiting for him to cast his spells and then leaving for a couple of hours. Come back after most if not all the spells have worn off. This tactic works well against any caster.

I would probably say that who wins any given encounter is more dependent on who's terms it takes place. Give a caster especially a cleric time to prepare and it favors him. Take the exact same character and catch him unprepared when he is not expecting combat he is toast.

I understood what you were saying, and I would probably assume that if you were not back in a few minutes that you were going to get reinforcements or worse. I would have no intention of waiting for you to come back. At that point my advantage is gone. My alarm spell is probably expired, and my mooks are dead, so if you come back you can probably jump me. If I had any traps they were obviously negotiated the first time.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:


Standard PC wealth. I will be the first to admit the Monk is not the be all, end all of characters. I just think they deserve more respect then most people give them.

They can be played fine.

But they are a light infantry build (to borrow from old warhorn) and such is the harder melee types to build. As such they easily get a bad rap.

A monk is more gear and buff dependent than other classes in general, and you can see that even with PC wealth that he is struggling to have a decent to hit, maintain a reasonable AC and the like.

When you compare a monk to a fighter in terms of fighting the monk is going to come up lacking... severely.

Since this started with the 'OMG what can I do against a monk!?!' rather than 'how useful/powerful are monks?' I think you can forgive us for telling the OP that they are not all that bad.

-James

Liberty's Edge

Ok, yous guys seemed to miss the point of my thread. It is NOT a debate over whether monks are good or not. Nor is it about monks as player characters.

My question was. How can players curbstomp a monk NPC with high DR, high AC and good saves in to the ground through min-maxing and usage of consumables such as scrolls?

Liberty's Edge

Red-Assassin wrote:

Concerning the last OP message he was implying CotED.

This is not just a regular monk, so all simple arguments do fail.

Not trying to ruin anything infact this should be a spoiler.

So in mods where the Big Evil boss is there, he will have great resources to draw upon.

So reading up on the stat blocks, these paticular ones where beasts.

Considering the CR. A party should spend considerably amount of consumables on this fight.

So concerning a boss like this, what could help not specifically concerning a cleric.

Well first any type of Blanket combat spell. Deeper Darkness probably would of leveled the playing field.

Silence, or other blanket spells, also the simple grease spell would of been a huge huge bonus, even if the target didn't fail.

What else in these encounters a witch debuffer or a debuff cleric touch of chaos would change the encounter on the second or third round.

I've considered these and decided on buying some one-off scrolls including Greater Dispel Magic, Antimagic Field and Destruction which deals 10d6 untyped damage even if the target makes his save.

Liberty's Edge

Quote:
Kill them. With damage.

Cast Enlarge on the ranger while cackling maniacally.


LordZod wrote:


My question was. How can players curbstomp a monk NPC with high DR, high AC and good saves in to the ground through min-maxing and usage of consumables such as scrolls?

Dispel him.. it's pretty easy to knock off a consumable's buff.

Also try not to have the party announce that they are on their way.. if you give bad guys rounds to prep then your life is going to get much harder in these levels!

-James


It's pretty damn meta-gamey to figure out how to beat a specific threat before the game even happens. Why would your character have the specific tools on him to beat a particular foe?

That aside, any AOE damage spells that don't save on Reflex should work, like shout. Just pile on enough of those for guaranteed damage.

Having a Cube of Force will probably also help you a lot.

Liberty's Edge

james maissen wrote:


A monk is more gear and buff dependent than other classes in general, and you can see that even with PC wealth that he is struggling to have a decent to hit, maintain a reasonable AC and the like.

Not really.

They don't wear armor, and they don't need weapons, and they have all high saves. So gear dependent...not so much.

Sure they benefit from buffs, but who doesn't? And remember, they are able to afford them because of the savings above.

My wife is playing a monk now, and the "problem" she is having is picking which options at a given time in a given situation. She is used to straightforward classes where your role in a given combat is more defined and consistent from battle to battle.

The tactical approach needed with a monk is more challenging. Sometimes you are the bear, sometimes you are the bait, sometimes you rush in to stun the caster, sometimes you slide into flanking position, sometimes you get the potion to the wounded ally on the other side of the battlefield...aside from scouting duty, monks roles tend to vary greatly from situation to situation.

Most classes you design to fill a role in the group that doesn't change greatly from moment to moment. Even casters you pick spells for the day with an intention of filling a specific party role (buffer, blaster, battlefield control, SoS, etc...) for that day.

A monk can fill a number of roles in a given scenario, albeit less effectively than a class designed for a specific role. You trade versatility for power. And most people like to be the "Big Damn Hero" rather than the effective logistician who actually got things done.


ciretose wrote:
A monk can fill a number of roles in a given scenario, albeit less effectively than a class designed for a specific role. You trade versatility for power. And most people like to be the "Big Damn Hero" rather than the effective logistician who actually got things done.

You have that one right. My monk saved several characters in all manner of situations where few others could've offered effective help - from blinding (dirty tricking) a giant tentacle monster that had grappled our casters to getting an unlikely (but legitimate) stun on a bulette to save our witch from super-certain doom.

It is a rare situation in which a monk cannot do *something* useful.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Fly and hem him in with wall spells. If by "bad touch" cleric you mean a negative energy channeler, hit him with channeled negative energy. Even with Will half, you will wear him down. Above all, stay out of his reach or he will grapple you or disarm your holy symbol: game, set, match.


Lvl 12 Procrastinator wrote:

Step 1: Kill a medusa.

Step 2: Take her head.
Step 3: Show it to monk.

Seriously, though, I've seen a monk PC neutralized with a net. Don't see why the same wouldn't work against an NPC monk. Summoning a swarm of something that attacks Fort could be good too.

Step 4: Shatter the petrified monk.

FATALITY


LoreKeeper wrote:
It's pretty damn meta-gamey to figure out how to beat a specific threat before the game even happens. Why would your character have the specific tools on him to beat a particular foe?

So it's metagaming to figure out how to do something your character might know anyway? It's metagaming to know silver is good against werewolves? Even people who don't know anything about D&D/PF know that.

Why wouldn't a character have tools to help them out in a variety of situations?

I think this is less of a roleplaying/character issue and more of a trying-to-understand-PF question.


KaeYoss wrote:
Lvl 12 Procrastinator wrote:

Step 1: Kill a medusa.

Step 2: Take her head.
Step 3: Show it to monk.

Seriously, though, I've seen a monk PC neutralized with a net. Don't see why the same wouldn't work against an NPC monk. Summoning a swarm of something that attacks Fort could be good too.

Step 4: Shatter the petrified monk.

FATALITY

Or step 4: monk rolls fortitude save, nothing happens.

Liberty's Edge

In my experience, Dex-based monks have fared much better than Wis- or Str-based monks. You may not do as much damage as a Str-based monk, but you get to have a single ability for CMD, AC (gross touch AC), to-hit (Finesse), CMB (assuming you take Agile Maneuvers), and Reflex saves (yay Evasion!). I think our monk had better damage output than he otherwise would because of the druid backing him up with greater magic fang, strong jaw, etc.

From a defensive standpoint, monks are pretty tough to beat, like the OP is complaining about. I would probably use spells that don't require saving throws, or at any rate, nothing that requires a Reflex save.


wraithstrike wrote:


I have only seen 1 monk be effective in actual play

Same here.

However, that was the only monk I have seen since the final PF rules were released. The only other monks I remember were not really helpful to establish a statistic:

  • One during 3.5e/Beta. He was not very effective because he was a craven dwarf. Yes, a dwarven monk who was a coward who ran away like a little girl (well, a little girl with a fiendish turn of speed). I can hardly say if he would have been good because I have so little actual combat data.

    He did run away from a fight where the bard (!!!) saved the day. I choose not to blame that on him being a monk. I blame it on him being a dwarf.

  • One was extremely effective, but that was a gestalt game and he was also an egoist. Untouchable.

    wraithstrike wrote:


    and every time I hear a story online about one it is due to a GM not using what I would call a base tactic or allowing things that are not permissible by the rules.

    Every time? They all give you enough information to just know that what you would call a base tactic was not employed or else the GM let them cheat?

    I call that a bit far fetched.

    I'll stick to "people just don't play to the class's strengths.".

    We can discuss whether this is because people have the wrong expectations or the class isn't done properly.


  • meabolex wrote:
    KaeYoss wrote:
    Lvl 12 Procrastinator wrote:

    Step 1: Kill a medusa.

    Step 2: Take her head.
    Step 3: Show it to monk.

    Seriously, though, I've seen a monk PC neutralized with a net. Don't see why the same wouldn't work against an NPC monk. Summoning a swarm of something that attacks Fort could be good too.

    Step 4: Shatter the petrified monk.

    FATALITY

    Or step 4: monk rolls fortitude save, nothing happens.

    I guess I'm used to DEX-based monks, and then they have that whole Still Mind thing going on to boost Will, so what does that leave? Attack Fort. If he has high CON for good Fort bonus, I guess your only option after that is kryptonite.


    LordZod wrote:

    Ok, yous guys seemed to miss the point of my thread. It is NOT a debate over whether monks are good or not. Nor is it about monks as player characters.

    My question was. How can players curbstomp a monk NPC with high DR, high AC and good saves in to the ground through min-maxing and usage of consumables such as scrolls?

    You say you were playing a cleric. So the best advice is: Pray.

    In real life.

    Because if the GM finds out you're reading ahead in modules and metagame your character to deal with that stuff, you'll be in deep s~$!. The best you can hope for is that he switches them out for something else designed to be the worst nightmare of whatever twink you're playing.

    I'd probably just throw you out of my game.


    meabolex wrote:
    KaeYoss wrote:
    Lvl 12 Procrastinator wrote:

    Step 1: Kill a medusa.

    Step 2: Take her head.
    Step 3: Show it to monk.

    Seriously, though, I've seen a monk PC neutralized with a net. Don't see why the same wouldn't work against an NPC monk. Summoning a swarm of something that attacks Fort could be good too.

    Step 4: Shatter the petrified monk.

    FATALITY

    Or step 4: monk rolls fortitude save, nothing happens.

    That's not how I saw it.


    meabolex wrote:
    LoreKeeper wrote:
    It's pretty damn meta-gamey to figure out how to beat a specific threat before the game even happens. Why would your character have the specific tools on him to beat a particular foe?

    So it's metagaming to figure out how to do something your character might know anyway? It's metagaming to know silver is good against werewolves? Even people who don't know anything about D&D/PF know that.

    Why wouldn't a character have tools to help them out in a variety of situations?

    I think this is less of a roleplaying/character issue and more of a trying-to-understand-PF question.

    It's metagaming if you're reading the module you're going to play and then focus on the enemies in that book when creating your character.


    LoreKeeper wrote:

    It's pretty damn meta-gamey to figure out how to beat a specific threat before the game even happens. Why would your character have the specific tools on him to beat a particular foe?

    Because he's worried about a specific kind of opponent.

    Now if the reason he's worried about THAT specific kind is because of outside knowledge then there's a problem.

    But there's nothing wrong or meta-gamey about say my slow heavy armored dwarf cleric from 3e have ways to circumvent: water/swimming, missile fire, ride-by charges and the like that he would be weak against. I know my character obtained items specifically for this kind of thing and it seems very reasonable for him to do so.

    Likewise if he knew he was going to come up against a monastery then he would consider how to deal with what his character imagined he might face therein.

    -James


    Seems like an air elemental might be a good summoned creature against a monk. They can't be out run.


    distract him while your thief backstabs with a ballista


    "Use your words" ~my Grandma

    No one should have to resolve a conflict involving a monk with a fight. Just talk the monk into a philosophical paradox and they will probably kill themselves or ask to be your student.

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