Unless I am misunderstanding something.. this feat seems well nigh worthless. It lets you ignore material requirements for spells (as long as they are cheap) but from what I see, it doesn't affect foci...
So you will need to carry around a Spell Component Pouch for all the focus requirements of spells... in which case you already have the material components too, right?..
So from what I can tell it seems that the only thing it does is give you options if you for some reason have your spell comp pouch stolen/destroyed etc and even then ONLY if the spell doesn't require a focus. Am I right?
Foci aren't necessarily in the component pouch, but yeah, otherwise you've pretty much got it right. I've only ever seen sorcerers with this feat and only because they get it for free.
Foci aren't necessarily in the component pouch, but yeah, otherwise you've pretty much got it right. I've only ever seen sorcerers with this feat and only because they get it for free.
Getting that spell component pouch sundered in the middle of an important battle can be a b#+!% though. All depends on how much importance your GM places on that little bag.
Yes, this is essentially so you can keep on casting even if someone steals your spell component pouch.
Or maybe because you want to play a character who does not eat live spiders frequently but does cast spider climb often.
Getting that spell component pouch sundered in the middle of an important battle can be a b*%@# though. All depends on how much importance your GM places on that little bag.
I'd say it rather depends on whether the GM makes a habit of taking away your toys. Will the GM sunder weapons? Steal spell components? Assassinate familiars?
Apparently, some people out there get off on that sort of thing.
Getting that spell component pouch sundered in the middle of an important battle can be a b*%@# though. All depends on how much importance your GM places on that little bag.I'd say it rather depends on whether the GM makes a habit of taking away your toys. Will the GM sunder weapons? Steal spell components? Assassinate familiars?
Apparently, some people out there get off on that sort of thing.
A fair point, though Wizards more than most other classes get away with playing god so much that sometimes targeting one of the few weaknesses they have is necessary to remind them that they are not, in fact, invincible.
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I think foci are only necessary for divine casters. I interpret it to mean that arcane casters can ignore the material components for spells entirely, with the exception of the particularly expensive ones.
Some arcane spells have a focus material component. A single example will suffice: acid arrow.
I have always understood eschew materials to apply to low cost foci as well, but don't know why. I've also never seen anyone ever take the feat until Pathfinder sorcerers got it for free, so it tended to be academic.
We have a house rule that the spell also lets you ignore 50 GP per caster level of costly items. 1K gold at level 20 is not that much and it makes the feat a little more useful.
No, you are not missing anything. Eschew Materials has never removed the need for foci. Didn't in 3.0/3.5 either.
However, in my experience, it seems to be a fairly common houserule (and one that I also allow) that it does.
Unless I am misunderstanding something.. this feat seems well nigh worthless. It lets you ignore material requirements for spells (as long as they are cheap) but from what I see, it doesn't affect foci...
So you will need to carry around a Spell Component Pouch for all the focus requirements of spells... in which case you already have the material components too, right?..
So from what I can tell it seems that the only thing it does is give you options if you for some reason have your spell comp pouch stolen/destroyed etc and even then ONLY if the spell doesn't require a focus. Am I right?
I always allow the foci to be there too, just for ease of play, but you have it right.
Because bat poo smells like bat poo.
Hah! you think it's so-so! you should see the 3.x version...it actually costed +1 spell level modifier to use it!
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Some DM's rule that if a particular material component is "Rare" or hard to find in a particular setting you need to go out of your way to find it.
For example Alter Self, you need a piece of flesh of whatever your turning into, now how in gods name would a spell component pouch contain a near unlimited number of flesh scrapes from every race the spell could turn you into, and all other components for your other spells? Other spells involve live spiders or fresh tears so it has its uses.
Some DM's rule that if a particular material component is "Rare" or hard to find in a particular setting you need to go out of your way to find it.
For example Alter Self, you need a piece of flesh of whatever your turning into, now how in gods name would a spell component pouch contain a near unlimited number of flesh scrapes from every race the spell could turn you into, and all other components for your other spells? Other spells involve live spiders or fresh tears so it has its uses.
Another spell that comes in to mind is the dragon breath spell, it requires a scale of the dragon you want to emulate! you just don't find dragon scales laying around common shops!
Also Black Tentacles requires a giant octopus/squid tentacle to cast.
The only use for this feat is if the GM cares about the spell components. If they are really strict about it, this is a must to have.
+1
It depends on the GM mostly and the type of game he wants to play.
For example, a spell component for a pf exclusive nice level 1 spell called Infernal Healing, which is usable by wizards, is a drop of devil blood.
More lenient game masters might let you go away easily. A little bit more strict gm might want to ask you where did you acquire devil blood in the first place.
It all depends though. As with all theoretically negligible components you may argue that they should be easy to acquire in your next door friendly wizard's shop.
Some gms will argue that devil blood is not really easy to acquire and even though it has no actual cost attached to it, it should be considered to be an exotic component not easily attainable.
In these cases, Eschew Materials is a great feat to have.
Know your gm.
The only use for this feat is if the GM cares about the spell components. If they are really strict about it, this is a must to have.
This.
Our GM doesn’t enforce spell components in the sense that you need to state you are going out and buying/gathering components after each session. He might ask once in a blue moon subtract a few gold from your wealth to ‘restock’ your minor spell components (which Eschew Materials only covers, anyways).
A recent session one of the NPC’s traveling with us fell into the water and got his spell components wet and he couldn’t cast any spells requiring materials.
But in the end, it just really depends on how much your GM enforces the use/need of spell components. If he doesn’t enforce it at all or you can’t lose them, then yes, the feat is pretty useless in that kind of campaign.
This feat can be a big deal in the following situations:
Grappled -- while grappled you must already have the spell components in hand or you can't cast a spell. With this feat you don't have to hold the spell components and can cast the spell while grappled.
Polymorphed -- Dragon form is called out as allowing you to cast spells for example... if you can reach your spell component pouch which merged with your form. If you have eschew materials that isn't a problem for you.
Paralyzed -- If you are paraplyzed and happen to have a still and silent spell prepared you still aren't clear to cast unless you have the spell components in hand, or you have eschew materials.
There are a few other cases but these are the big three mechanically speaking. How often they come up will tell you how important eschew materials will be to you.
Eschew Materials is also important for Druids who want to cast while wild shaped via the Natural Spell feat (or Wild Spell, or whatever they call it these days.)
The components in a spell component pouch do actually get consumed with casting, and a DM is well within his rights to ask that it be refilled after a few days of adventuring, just like buying more food. If you're on a looooong adventure in the back of beyond, this could lead to a lot of problems when your little bag of magical stuff finally goes empty. (Of course, many campaigns don't track resources at that level, so you may actually never see this happen at the table.)
I'd also rule that casters using components are far more obvious when casting, especially when the spell has a subtle effect or happened at a decent range away.
Getting that spell component pouch sundered in the middle of an important battle can be a b#~~# though.Is this a common tactic? I've pondered using it before, but I've never encountered a GM or player who tried it.
I haven't sundered a component pouch, but I have sundered a +3 Mithral Axe before, leaving it with 5 hp and had the PC throw it as far as he could to get it away from the person doing the sundering. :) It was funny watching the normally massive damage duskblade (was that the right class? The 3.5 splat class that could cast through their weapon) suddenly reduced to using gauntlets built into his Adamantine plate to attack with, and not doing anywhere near his normal damage.
In my campaigns, I handwave Eschew Materials. I also tell players that if they choose, they can have Weapon Finesse for free, but they can never choose to use their Str modifier for attacks after that point (in the event their Dex is drained or a Str boosting item is found). I feel like Finesse should not be a feat tax on those who want to play Dex based characters. (If a player wants to take Finesse, then they can choose to alternate between Str and Dex for attacking, though I don't know why anyone would do that.)
Eschew materials is a useless feat. It allows you to ignore material components up to what, one gold? I don't even house rule a change in it because we don't bother with the bookkeeping. Now if it were for a low-magic campaign, this feat might shine, but in a standard game, I'd rather pay 5g every time we visit town to replenish the pouch than to waste my feat slot on it.
So far, this has worked out and has done nothing to upset our game balance.
Getting that spell component pouch sundered in the middle of an important battle can be a b~&$+ though. All depends on how much importance your GM places on that little bag.
Although, really, the optimal solution to that tactic isn't to spend a feat to cover that weakness, it's to buy more than one spell component pouch.
This is why I don't love sundering it as a GM tactic -- it falls into the category of things that you can only catch a smart player with once and never again for that character or any other.
Eschew Materials is also important for Druids who want to cast while wild shaped via the Natural Spell feat (or Wild Spell, or whatever they call it these days.)
Eschew Materials is generally fairly worthless for divine casters. Divine spells rarely have non-costly material components, and when they do, the components are usually the target of the spell and can't be eschewed, ex. Fire Seeds.
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I played an oracle who was deaf (adding the silent spell for free) and I took both eschew and still spell so I could cast spells with no one recognizing I was. It came quite in handy with a well placed charm (assuming the target failed his saving throw). I manipulated many a situation when the enemy leader suddenly remembered we were best friends from long ago... Lots of fun =)
Yes, this is essentially so you can keep on casting even if someone steals your spell component pouch.
Or maybe because you want to play a character who does not eat live spiders frequently but does cast spider climb often.
+1
reminded me of a game where we were chaseing a doppelganger along a castle and he had boots of spider climb or something so we had our caster blowing through the spiderclimbs and thats when we noticed that part of the componenet. heh at one point the party of us three all rush the caster holding a spider going HERE EAT IT!
Getting that spell component pouch sundered in the middle of an important battle can be a b~&$+ though. All depends on how much importance your GM places on that little bag.Although, really, the optimal solution to that tactic isn't to spend a feat to cover that weakness, it's to buy more than one spell component pouch.
This is why I don't love sundering it as a GM tactic -- it falls into the category of things that you can only catch a smart player with once and never again for that character or any other.
Each extra pouch costs 2 more lbs of weight on a character that routinely has a 10 STR max. It's certainly a viable option, but not one without its own drawbacks. I also disagree about sundering being a one shot deal as a GM. Breaking the BSF's main weapon more than once is still going to be effective in reducing the party's overall ability. If you fall into the camp of sunders being iterative attack options, sunder gets even more dangerous to PCs.
I also disagree about sundering being a one shot deal as a GM. Breaking the BSF's main weapon more than once is still going to be effective in reducing the party's overall ability.
It's not really the same thing. The BSF's main weapon doesn't cost 2 gold and he can't draw an identical replacement as a move action and then act with full deadliness on his standard.
Maybe the mage only carries two or three spell component pouches and has companions or a mount carry the rest. Maybe they go into bags of holding or a haversack at low-mid levels. Point being, "I sunder your spell component pouch and now you're helpless" is only ever going to actually work on a halfway intelligent player once. After that, you're almost always going to be better off doing almost anything else in combat.
I also disagree about sundering being a one shot deal as a GM. Breaking the BSF's main weapon more than once is still going to be effective in reducing the party's overall ability.It's not really the same thing. The BSF's main weapon doesn't cost 2 gold and he can't draw an identical replacement as a move action and then act with full deadliness on his standard.
Maybe the mage only carries two or three spell component pouches and has companions or a mount carry the rest. Maybe they go into bags of holding or a haversack at low-mid levels. Point being, "I sunder your spell component pouch and now you're helpless" is only ever going to actually work on a halfway intelligent player once. After that, you're almost always going to be better off doing almost anything else in combat.
I think you're confusing helplessness and increased difficulty. Everything you just listed is action economy wasted (retrieving pouch from non-dimensional space, from friend, from mount, etc), which is what wins encounters. There is a difference between decreased effectiveness and complete ineffectiveness.
Drawing it out will provoke as well which gets you another attack on the caster, and if you delay to sunder when he goes to cast then you can ruin the spell since he doesn't have the components (though readying to hurt the caster is probably a better choice.
I think you're confusing helplessness and increased difficulty. Everything you just listed is action economy wasted (retrieving pouch from non-dimensional space, from friend, from mount, etc), which is what wins encounters. There is a difference between decreased effectiveness and complete ineffectiveness.
I think you'd really have to work to contrive a situation in which trading your round for a caster's move action is a great trade, or especially is a better trade than hitting them.
I played an oracle who was deaf (adding the silent spell for free) and I took both eschew and still spell so I could cast spells with no one recognizing I was. It came quite in handy with a well placed charm (assuming the target failed his saving throw). I manipulated many a situation when the enemy leader suddenly remembered we were best friends from long ago... Lots of fun =)
A lot of people on these boards believe it is impossible by the rules to conceal spellcasting, especially from someone with Spellcraft (even if you use Silent Spell, Still Spell, and Eschew Materials).
I'm not one of them.
Creative Director
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Worth remembering: Not all feats are built equal, nor are all feats great choices for standard PCs.
Eschew Materials is a handy feat to have around for things like nagas, or even more to the point, for spellcasters who don't have arms. In this case, Eschew Materials helps enable unusual character concepts, be they PC or NPC character concepts.
Also, combined with Still Spell, Eschew Materials also lets you do things like cast spells without having to have hands free (whether it's to do somatic components or to retrieve the required components from a spell component pouch). Whether or not you actually need to use your hands to get at your material components is kinda glossed over by the rules, but common sense and tradition (including movies, novels, and other entertainment media that depicts spellcasting) would imply that you would... in any event, Eschew Materials is a handy way to sidestep that potential argument with the GM when you want to cast a spell when your hands are tied.
Also, combined with Still Spell, Eschew Materials also lets you do things like cast spells without having to have hands free (whether it's to do somatic components or to retrieve the required components from a spell component pouch). Whether or not you actually need to use your hands to get at your material components is kinda glossed over by the rules, but common sense and tradition (including movies, novels, and other entertainment media that depicts spellcasting) would imply that you would... in any event, Eschew Materials is a handy way to sidestep that potential argument with the GM when you want to cast a spell when your hands are tied.
You all already covered this in the rules:
The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.
If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is flat-footed. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.
Also I would point out that currently to cast a spell while tied up takes a concentration check with a DC 10 + the person tying you up's CMB bonus + spell level currently, regardless of how you cast the spell.
Same for spell like abilities actually.
... but Pathfinder (as compared to 3.0/3.5) has intentionally simplified bookkeeping around spell components. Specifically, they direct you not to do it in the core rulebook.
I think the way James put it explains it very well...
I just wish there was an in-game way to make it so you could potentially not need to carry anything at all no matter what you were casting (aside from high cost stuff like wish etc obviously) ...I guess you could load up on the various ways of getting spell-like abilities... but thats not really the same.
