Are you seriously suggesting that a housecat CANNOT kill you?
Erm... an average, able-bodied adult human will get HURT by an average able-bodied cat looking to do physical harm... but it would take an extraordinarily lucky scratch/bite that severed an artery to kill.
The size difference between us and them is not really akin to a bobcat trying to take down a deer, more like a bobcat trying to take down a horse. Not impossible, but highly unlikely.
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Are we seriously having a conversation in which it is suggested a housecat is considered a legit threat to human life?
No. Because cats don't ever do that. They'd need to be possessed or malignantly intelligent to do so.
Unlike dogs or wolves house cats have absolutely no instinctive desire to challenge us for dominance or fight us, so they only do so in percieved self-defense or defense of their territory, in which case their goal is to get us to leave or get away themselves. So the situation basically never comes up.
And, of course, if it did, the human would usually win...but the average human in Pathfinder is at least 2nd level, in which case they will indeed probably win (hell, even 1st level characters have a good chance at it).
But is it impossible for the cat to win? No. Humans are very fragile creatures, and can die from all kinds of small things.
I like cats, I've studied them. They're not nearly as dangerous on average as, say, a large dog, but I've personally known cats who could and did beat up large dogs. Are you going to argue that a large dog can't kill a person?
I like cats, I've studied them. They're not nearly as dangerous on average as, say, a large dog, but I've personally known cats who could and did beat up large dogs. Are you going to argue that a large dog can't kill a person?
So you are now reasoning that a housecat can 'beat up' a large dog. Yep I can see moggy taking Cujo down no worries... once again the might of Google gives no credit to this tale, unless you are simply suggesting by 'beat up' that the cat managed to be enough of a nuisance that the inquisitive dog simply just decided it was no longer that curious and wandered off.
No, I don't think for one second that the cat, even possessed of human intelligence granted to it by magic ninja beans could kill you, me, nor anybody else... magic arterial hits of doom and later infections by nail funk included.
It would be all fun and games until I booted it, where the whole show would end.
would usually win...but the average human in Pathfinder is at least 2nd level, in which case they will indeed probably win (hell, even 1st level characters have a good chance at it)
Which is an INTERESTING POINT!
Why is the average bumpkin a SECOND leveller, yet the players all start at L1? Are they the village idiots or something?
Why dont the players get a free NPC level too?
stuff about booting the cat.
As TOZ has pointed out its extremely unlikely.
But as its possible to drown in less liquid than is contained in the average soda can, the death by house-cat scenario is somewhat legitimate
stranger things have happened. I love 1000 ways to die.
\As Inara said "We are fragile creatures Mal."
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So you are now reasoning that a housecat can 'beat up' a large dog. Yep I can see moggy taking Cujo down no worries... once again the might of Google gives no credit to this tale, unless you are simply suggesting by 'beat up' that the cat managed to be enough of a nuisance that the inquisitive dog simply just decided it was no longer that curious and wandered off.
No, I'm talking bleeding, running for it's life, scared of the cat from then on kinda beat up. In fairness, it was a Maine Coon cat, which are about double the weight of your average cat, but still.
No, I don't think for one second that the cat, even possessed of human intelligence granted to it by magic ninja beans could kill you, me, nor anybody else... magic arterial hits of doom and later infections by nail funk included.
It certainly could kill you in your sleep. Almost anything can and a quick bite to the jugular...
In an actual fight, it'd be dicey. And a bit unlikely, honestly. But possible with a bit of luck.
It would be all fun and games until I booted it, where the whole show would end.
Exactly. If a human gets some leverage and gets a good hit on a cat, well, the cat's done. The thing in a fight with a human level intellect cat would be the cat knowing this and planning accordingly.
Which is an INTERESTING POINT!Why is the average bumpkin a SECOND leveller, yet the players all start at L1? Are they the village idiots or something?
Why dont the players get a free NPC level too?
Well, the average farmer is probably older than the PCs (who tend towards the early 20s at their oldest), and the PCs have both PC classes and MUCH higher attributes (since the NPC uses the NPC Class array, aka 3 point buy arranged poorly). A teenager might well only be level 1.
I think that reflects young people with a lot of potential (which is what 1st level characters are) rather well.
Says who?
The Gamemastery Guide, though it's supported by various published modules, the NPC Guide, and other stuff like that.
I think that reflects young people with a lot of potential (which is what 1st level characters are) rather well.
So unless we all take PC's who are young and haven't learnt their 'trade' we must accept that they are, if over the age of 19, the village idiot :p
I still run with NPC's being 1st level as the 2nd level, even if only an NPC class, just seems a bit cheezy where the above average kids off to be adventurers are somehow inferior to the rest of the villagers.
I guess I also don't buy the Barmans Union rules that only Fighters over level 10 can be the tavernkeeper.
I think that reflects young people with a lot of potential (which is what 1st level characters are) rather well.
So unless we all take PC's who are young and haven't learnt their 'trade' we must accept that they are, if over the age of 19, the village idiot :p
I still run with NPC's being 1st level as the 2nd level, even if only an NPC class, just seems a bit cheezy where the above average kids off to be adventurers are somehow inferior to the rest of the villagers.
I guess I also don't buy the Barmans Union rules that only Fighters over level 10 can be the tavernkeeper.
You are confusing suggestions with hard rules. Bob the Farmer could be a commoner 1, commoner 1/expert 1, or even fighter 10. Put the chances are a lifetime farmer will be commoner 1/ expert 1.
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So unless we all take PC's who are young and haven't learnt their 'trade' we must accept that they are, if over the age of 19, the village idiot :p
Nah, I was thinking more like over the age of 22 or 23. :)
2nd level before then would be impressive, though not unusual, but 1st would be the norm.
I still run with NPC's being 1st level as the 2nd level, even if only an NPC class, just seems a bit cheezy where the above average kids off to be adventurers are somehow inferior to the rest of the villagers.
I'd have any peers the PCs have also be level 1. It's adults with established lives, professions, and maybe marriages who are Level 2 or 3.
I guess I also don't buy the Barmans Union rules that only Fighters over level 10 can be the tavernkeeper.
Actually, the listed barkeep, while 5th level, is an Expert 4/Warrior 1, and can be taken out by most first level martial PCs despite his whole 23 HP. He only has +5 to hit and an AC of 13, after all.
You're making level mean too much, other things matter quite a bit, too.
I've actually got an entire Level Demographics thread which we could move this part of the discussion to and stop derailing this one, if you like.
This thread is epic
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I like cats, I've studied them. They're not nearly as dangerous on average as, say, a large dog, but I've personally known cats who could and did beat up large dogs. Are you going to argue that a large dog can't kill a person?
So you are now reasoning that a housecat can 'beat up' a large dog. Yep I can see moggy taking Cujo down no worries... once again the might of Google gives no credit to this tale, unless you are simply suggesting by 'beat up' that the cat managed to be enough of a nuisance that the inquisitive dog simply just decided it was no longer that curious and wandered off.No, I don't think for one second that the cat, even possessed of human intelligence granted to it by magic ninja beans could kill you, me, nor anybody else... magic arterial hits of doom and later infections by nail funk included.
It would be all fun and games until I booted it, where the whole show would end.
I have personally seen a cat chased by a pointer turn around and start chasing the fleeing pointer, so don't dismiss them so easily.
My current house cat while running around has bodyslammed my mother and make her fall while walking. Call it a nat 20 but a fall like that one can kill. And you can find plenty of tales of people stumbling on the cat at the head of the stairs and falling to their death.
And as you are citing google:
Pensioner found dead was 'killed by cat'.
I have personally seen a cat chased by a pointer turn around and start chasing the fleeing pointer, so don't dismiss them so easily.
My current house cat while running around has bodyslammed my mother and make her fall while walking. Call it a nat 20 but a fall like that one can kill. And you can find plenty of tales of people stumbling on the cat at the head of the stairs and falling to their death.
And as you are citing google:
Pensioner found dead was 'killed by cat'.
Killed because of a cat and killed by a cat are two different things, I can kill an army if I domino them into a lake of lava but I don't realistically have an actual fighting chance.
The killing by claw/claw/bite is what was initially brought up and that is just so low chance its not realistic. Cat claws me with obvious intent to cause serious harm and ill rip its throat out with a .01% chance that I'm at all injured, bloody and annoyed maybe but not injured.
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I have personally seen a cat chased by a pointer turn around and start chasing the fleeing pointer, so don't dismiss them so easily.
My current house cat while running around has bodyslammed my mother and make her fall while walking. Call it a nat 20 but a fall like that one can kill. And you can find plenty of tales of people stumbling on the cat at the head of the stairs and falling to their death.
And as you are citing google:
Pensioner found dead was 'killed by cat'.Killed because of a cat and killed by a cat are two different things, I can kill an army if I domino them into a lake of lava but I don't realistically have an actual fighting chance.
The killing by claw/claw/bite is what was initially brought up and that is just so low chance its not realistic. Cat claws me with obvious intent to cause serious harm and ill rip its throat out with a .01% chance that I'm at all injured, bloody and annoyed maybe but not injured.
Read the linked article. The pensioner was killed by a bleeding critical by the claw/claw/bite routine. Main point of the article "A woman found dead in her home is believed to have bled to death after her cat punctured a varicose vein in her leg, police said yesterday".
And dead is dead. Or you monsters never use other attacks than the basic routines?
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I consider anything that has the capability to kill me, no matter how slim, a legit threat to my life. I just don't worry about things that unlikely to.
A-ha! Now we know why US military is so trigger happy! They consider a housecat a grade F threat. If no threats of grade E and above a present, the kitty buys a bullet. Explains so much! ;-P
I consider anything that has the capability to kill me, no matter how slim, a legit threat to my life. I just don't worry about things that unlikely to.A-ha! Now we know why US military is so trigger happy! They consider a housecat a grade F threat. If no threats of grade E and above a present, the kitty buys a bullet. Explains so much! ;-P
Wouldn't that put grass on the list somewhere to? the chance is small (very very) but it can slide against you like a paper cut and nick an artery. So like grade M threat?
Read the linked article. The pensioner was killed by a bleeding critical by the claw/claw/bite routine. Main point of the article "A woman found dead in her home is believed to have bled to death after her cat punctured a varicose vein in her leg, police said yesterday".
And dead is dead. Or you monsters never use other attacks than the basic routines?
So you believe that your stat array as an 'average Joe' is basically that of a 60 year old ill health pensioner with varicose veins?
I dunno what stat array you reckon you got handed, but I'd be complaining to my GM pretty hard.
"Doctors said it was possible to die quickly of blood loss from a pierced varicose vein, and that the patient would start to feel faint as the blood drained away, and collapse before they were able to do anything to help themselves."
So less about the cat, and more about the major slash/pierce vulnerability some callous GM imposed on the player. They seem to have been killed by the GM's Fiat.
And now a brief distraction away from the macho chest-thumping about how easy it would be to kill kitty: the Titanic Housecat of Legend!
You need to read this article about encounter design.
It's written for 3.5, but the gist of it is still relevant.
That is an excellent article. Thank you for posting the link TOZ, I found it very refreshing to read as a DM.
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I've learned a lot from this thread. I learned about encounters. I learned a familiar can take down an mook. And finally I learned the dangers of everyday house cats. I bet cats have been killing all the cattle in the Mountain West all along... and we want to blame it on wolves. I guess some people have been hunting the wrong predators from helicopters.
Where this thread has gone is silly and deserves silliness. Let's combine it all I challenge the rest of y'all to purpose an encounter completely based on house cat based villains....
I'll go first: Trap Detect DC 25 Disarm DC 25: Bucket of fish oil falls on PC... huge swarm of cats (tiny creatures) devour the smelly PC.
You are confusing suggestions with hard rules. Bob the Farmer could be a commoner 1, commoner 1/expert 1, or even fighter 10. Put the chances are a lifetime farmer will be commoner 1/ expert 1.
Maybe, but don't forget the 'Tough Old Ba*****' prestige class that bumps a farmer up to d12 hit dice, and gives them Weapon Specialization in Pitchfork.
I mean, why else would a flesh golem like Frankenstein's monster have to be afraid of them?
Where this thread has gone is silly and deserves silliness.
There's a smurf for that.
Where this thread has gone is silly and deserves silliness. Let's combine it all I challenge the rest of y'all to purpose an encounter completely based on house cat based villains....Evidently from what I looked at it seems that if you wanted to make a typically challenging encounter for four 1st level characters would be to toss six homicidal cats at them. If you want to crank it up to an epic fight then just roll out 12 bristling cats and see what happens...
Actually, I want to see that..
A cleric, fighter, rogue and wizard, all 1st level, against 12 cats.
That would be ugly, and I would have to put odds on the cats just with their sheer numbers.
my grandmother used to have a venerable aged cat that killed rattlesnakes on a regular basis and walked away unscathed. this cat died of her advanced age. and she was quite intellegent too. she may have also had class levels. Magita was quite dangerous. she also knocked large dogs down to negative hit points and left them bleeding. i can say that she was a chaotic evil housecat ranger of multiple levels with favored enemy (animal).