I'm the kind of person who often looks at pictures and bases his characters on them. Recently I found a very inspiring picture of a marilith demon.
So, would there be any decent way to make a marilith demon into a PC race? It's crazy high CR of 17 isn't really suitable for low- to mid-level play.
I have next to no experience in converting monsters into playable PC races so I come for help in here. Is there a way to calculate or at least estimate CR reduction by ability, skill, feat, or other removal?
Thanks in advance.
You could start with a serpentfolk or yuan-ti and add some arms to get something that looks the same. Just skip all the magical abilities.
As for level adjustment equivalency... pretty high. Extra hands can do *a lot*.
No problem. Just start off as a dretch. Run around the abyss hiding from just about everyone and preying upon the occasional lost soul who's weaker than you. Work your way up.
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I'm the kind of person who often looks at pictures and bases his characters on them. Recently I found a very inspiring picture of a marilith demon.
So, would there be any decent way to make a marilith demon into a PC race? It's crazy high CR of 17 isn't really suitable for low- to mid-level play.
Do you want the whole shebang playable as a PC? Spell-like abilities, demonic resistances, etc?
Or do you just want the eventual physical image of a half-snake/half-human with six arms, possibly with some more subtle racial abilities more along the lines of tieflings?
You could create a "Marilith-class".
Since the Pathfinder rules essentially say you can play a regular Marilith as a level 17 character, and Mariliths have 16 HD, I'd suggest splitting up the Marilith's many special abilities and ability bonuses among 16 levels that each provide 1 Outsider HD and just start as a 1-HD character at level 2.
You should work together with your DM to create something balanced that you can both live with.
I'm the kind of person who often looks at pictures and bases his characters on them. Recently I found a very inspiring picture of a marilith demon.
So, would there be any decent way to make a marilith demon into a PC race? It's crazy high CR of 17 isn't really suitable for low- to mid-level play.
Do you want the whole shebang playable as a PC? Spell-like abilities, demonic resistances, etc?
Or do you just want the eventual physical image of a half-snake/half-human with six arms, possibly with some more subtle racial abilities more along the lines of tieflings?
Eventual physical image is more what I had in mind, very much akin to tieflings and aasimar. I also like the idea of having six arms and wielding all sorts of weapons and equipment.
You could create a "Marilith-class".
Since the Pathfinder rules essentially say you can play a regular Marilith as a level 17 character, and Mariliths have 16 HD, I'd suggest splitting up the Marilith's many special abilities and ability bonuses among 16 levels that each provide 1 Outsider HD and just start as a 1-HD character at level 2.
You should work together with your DM to create something balanced that you can both live with.
That is actually a very good suggestion, and I did consider making it a class. But what about race then? I'd just add it as marilith with a class of marilith, game mechanics-wise leaving the race part empty? And yes, I intend to give my DM a warning about my character creation desires beforehand.
It would be nice to make a marilith with a real PC class though. Perhaps I should work on a new race of Lesser Marilith Demons. Aurghh.
Also, the idea about making a modified serpentfolk (or yuan-ti) might work as well.
Thanks for the ideas.
if you go the marilith class rout. just make up a race to go with it and balance that race vs normal Pc ones. I'm not surecwhatvthecstats would be though.
I'm the kind of person who often looks at pictures and bases his characters on them. Recently I found a very inspiring picture of a marilith demon.
So, would there be any decent way to make a marilith demon into a PC race? It's crazy high CR of 17 isn't really suitable for low- to mid-level play.
Do you want the whole shebang playable as a PC? Spell-like abilities, demonic resistances, etc?
Or do you just want the eventual physical image of a half-snake/half-human with six arms, possibly with some more subtle racial abilities more along the lines of tieflings?
Eventual physical image is more what I had in mind, very much akin to tieflings and aasimar. I also like the idea of having six arms and wielding all sorts of weapons and equipment.
You could create a "Marilith-class".
Since the Pathfinder rules essentially say you can play a regular Marilith as a level 17 character, and Mariliths have 16 HD, I'd suggest splitting up the Marilith's many special abilities and ability bonuses among 16 levels that each provide 1 Outsider HD and just start as a 1-HD character at level 2.
You should work together with your DM to create something balanced that you can both live with.
That is actually a very good suggestion, and I did consider making it a class. But what about race then? I'd just add it as marilith with a class of marilith, game mechanics-wise leaving the race part empty? And yes, I intend to give my DM a warning about my character creation desires beforehand.
It would be nice to make a marilith with a real PC class though. Perhaps I should work on a new race of Lesser Marilith Demons. Aurghh.
Also, the idea about making a modified serpentfolk (or yuan-ti) might work as well.
Thanks for the ideas.
You could say you were a type of half-fiend. As for abilities I think that six arms gives to much to a very low level character. What level is the game starting at? You may be able to work your way up to six arms as you mutate over time.
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Or alternately a tiefling with a ridiculously strong "taint" in the blood. I can't remember if half-fiends are native outsiders or not, but the tief approach keeps them in the game for raising. :)
I wonder...could building this character like an Eidolon be feasible? An Eidolon without a summoner, with a regular PC stat array... That way the character could easily evolve as she levels.
Reducing the marilith demon into a race playable by PCs is far from easy, that's for sure. I don't think the end result has to be ECL0 and I'd be accepting of even an ECL+2 character.
Using tiefling as a base so far I have...
+2 Strength, -2 Dexterity (or +2 Strength, -2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma)
Darkvision: Like the tiefling, a marilith has darkvision up to 60 ft.
Multitude Arm: Instead of Skilled, Darkness, second positive ability bonus and Fiendish Sorcery, a marilith has six arms.
Languages: Marilith begins play with Common and Abyssal. High Int lets you choose more languages as per rules.
This basically strips CR17 marilith of all its powers and abilities except for darkvision and the six arms. The player also has to take Multiweapon Fighting feat to use more than two arms effectively. I'm not too sure about the ability score bonuses and reductions; +2 Str, +2 Dex might work as well, with equally balancing negatives.
There's also marilith's size. Bestiary lists the creature as Large. Is this only because of the long snake tail or is the humanoid part also large? Should this be reduced or kept the same?
Feedback is greatly appreciated.
Also, this is supposed to be for a level 1 game start.
If you're going to start off at 1st level, it would probably be more balanced to play a human or other sort of "normal" character race who has been corrupted in some way.
H.P. Lovecraft wrote a really cool story about a town where the inhabitants slowly evolve/devolve into horrible evil aquatic monsters. Maybe come up with something like that. Play it more like a horror story-- at first level, there are a few "odd" things about your character, maybe you were born with a pair of extra limbs that were surgically removed as a deformity while you were a baby, but the scars have begun to itch terribly and you have started to notice a skin rash on your legs that almost looks like scales...
Then, as you progress, you could have another set of arms begin to grow out of your sides again, becoming functional about the level that the other melee characters are gaining iterative attacks. A large, snake-like tail begins to grow out of your backside, eventually growing large enough that you begin to support some of your weight with it. As time goes on, you find yourself able to use it as a means of travel, and your legs begin to wither, eventually shedding off completely just as a snake sheds its skin.
Also, look at the lamia matriarch from the Bestiary 2. It has some similarities, but might be easier to progress into instead of the marilith.
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I have to say first that I am a bit of a "rules lawyer". This kind of thing often annoys me. I've seen players "create" races, classes, or variants before and I most often find that all they really do is throw out the abilities that aren't helpful to them and keep the abilities that are. This kind of pick and choose creation in my opinion often causes a 1 dimensional and often overpowered race, class, or variant. However, I will say that if you can do this with grace and not make it overpowered/one dimensional more power to you! =)
I'll also mention that RP a maralith will be really hard.... they are evil... pure evil. Just thought I'd remind you.
If you're going to start off at 1st level, it would probably be more balanced to play a human or other sort of "normal" character race who has been corrupted in some way.
H.P. Lovecraft wrote a really cool story about a town where the inhabitants slowly evolve/devolve into horrible evil aquatic monsters. Maybe come up with something like that. Play it more like a horror story-- at first level, there are a few "odd" things about your character, maybe you were born with a pair of extra limbs that were surgically removed as a deformity while you were a baby, but the scars have begun to itch terribly and you have started to notice a skin rash on your legs that almost looks like scales...
Then, as you progress, you could have another set of arms begin to grow out of your sides again, becoming functional about the level that the other melee characters are gaining iterative attacks. A large, snake-like tail begins to grow out of your backside, eventually growing large enough that you begin to support some of your weight with it. As time goes on, you find yourself able to use it as a means of travel, and your legs begin to wither, eventually shedding off completely just as a snake sheds its skin.
Also, look at the lamia matriarch from the Bestiary 2. It has some similarities, but might be easier to progress into instead of the marilith.
Yes, Innsmouth and the Deep Ones. Those damn things are ugly as hell. But your suggestion is similar to what I had in mind; a sorcerer bloodline. But I'm playing a sorcerer right now and I don't fancy repeating it again soon. Lamia matriarch might work but doesn't do it for me.
Doing that whole slow transformation progress would require a lot more work than just stripping marilith of its abilities. But it is so damn interesting too, and makes me want to try it.
And with you, Mcarvin, I agree. I also tend to follow all things in the official books religiously. I'm also a perfectionist when it comes to my characters and the idea I have for a future character, going through excess trouble to pull it off the way I want it to be. In this case, it has to be a marilith demon - albeit a weak one.
But, you both agree that the lesser version of the Bestiary monster isn't suitable? Maybe I should make the arms scale with levels? Would that be insane; to have a scaling function from classes for a race?
P.S
Is it retarded to think of ways to have the character not be pure evil because of the reason x I'm yet to decide?
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As for level adjustment equivalency... pretty high. Extra hands can do *a lot*.
Is it bad that I immediately went to an inappropriate place with this comment? Also made me think of a line by comedian James P. Conolly "I want my next girlfriend to be bilingual. Just the thought of that extra tongue..."
Slightly more on subject, it may not actually help too much but playing a summoner I had the thought of how close you could get to a Marilith by ~10th level with your Eidolon, making it large and serpentine, throwing extra arms on it and giving it martial weapon prof.
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P.S
Is it retarded to think of ways to have the character not be pure evil because of the reason x I'm yet to decide?
There's plenty of ways to get that to work. :)
Demons are made from mortal souls, and there are a frighteningly large number of ways for non-evil souls to be claimed by the Abyss for just that purpose:
Binding sacrifices, such as thsoe performed by those animated sacrificial altars whose name escapes me at the moment
Falling victim to a balor lord's "swallow soul" ability, which is an instant trip to demonhood
Some possessions
Plain old trickery
Skimmed from the stream of souls in the astral plane, which is a huge no-no and some demons actually work with devils and angels to prevent daemons from doing the same
Sold by night hags
And many more!
All you need is a strong soul that had enough will to hang on to some form of conscience even after being reborn and reshaped into a proto-marilith, which would mark her as an absolute outcast in the Abyss. There should, however, be any number of folks that would be very interested in seeing such a strange creature develop into something better than a mere demon, the Church of Sarenrae in the Golarion setting for starters.
Kind of imagining the transformations happening overnight. Her skin hardens overnight and the next morning she sheds it in a traumatic molting to reveal her next form.
A Summoner can get extra arms at level 10, albeit it is only one set, but you can get more until about level 18 or so. Shoot, with the spells you can choose, you could mimic a good deal of marilith abilities, including gate at level 17. Taking a Tiefling through that leveling process is a good way to get your flavor without having to bend the rules... at all.
And since you are a summoner, you can create a marilith for the Eidolon, and she could claim to be your mother or something, and get all of the flavor you were looking for, and have two of them to play at level 20 when you get twin Eidolon.
At level 11, you could pick up multi weapon fighting, if your gm allows monster feats that you actually qualify for. And if my rules-fu is good, then you can pick up Improved TWF, and get 8 attacks a round. Of course, your strength would suck, and your AC would also suck, but you could do it.
A Summoner can get extra arms at level 10, albeit it is only one set, but you can get more until about level 18 or so. Shoot, with the spells you can choose, you could mimic a good deal of marilith abilities, including gate at level 17. Taking a Tiefling through that leveling process is a good way to get your flavor without having to bend the rules... at all.
And since you are a summoner, you can create a marilith for the Eidolon, and she could claim to be your mother or something, and get all of the flavor you were looking for, and have two of them to play at level 20 when you get twin Eidolon.
At level 11, you could pick up multi weapon fighting, if your gm allows monster feats that you actually qualify for. And if my rules-fu is good, then you can pick up Improved TWF, and get 8 attacks a round. Of course, your strength would suck, and your AC would also suck, but you could do it.
That certainly is a good solution but at the same time the character would not feel like a marilith but rather an imitation of one. I also don't fancy making a summoner with this concept. At least yet.
I suppose I'll spend some time brainstorming how to make a proto-marilith a fair race while retaining six arms. Got to check the Bestiary if there would be any advice on CR when it comes to multiple arms.
A Summoner can get extra arms at level 10, albeit it is only one set, but you can get more until about level 18 or so. Shoot, with the spells you can choose, you could mimic a good deal of marilith abilities, including gate at level 17. Taking a Tiefling through that leveling process is a good way to get your flavor without having to bend the rules... at all.
And since you are a summoner, you can create a marilith for the Eidolon, and she could claim to be your mother or something, and get all of the flavor you were looking for, and have two of them to play at level 20 when you get twin Eidolon.
At level 11, you could pick up multi weapon fighting, if your gm allows monster feats that you actually qualify for. And if my rules-fu is good, then you can pick up Improved TWF, and get 8 attacks a round. Of course, your strength would suck, and your AC would also suck, but you could do it.
That certainly is a good solution but at the same time the character would not feel like a marilith but rather an imitation of one. I also don't fancy making a summoner with this concept. At least yet.
I suppose I'll spend some time brainstorming how to make a proto-marilith a fair race while retaining six arms. Got to check the Bestiary if there would be any advice on CR when it comes to multiple arms.
I think there was a multi-arm or multi-head template in the savage species book which is 3.x
I think I saw a summoner archetype that someone came up with that allowed you to add your evolutions to yourself instead of to an Eidolon, but I don't recall where I saw it. Probably in the RPG Superstar forum. That could be an option too, now I just have to find it.
Ahh, here it is. The Fleshbinder. Mark Moreland said that they had something similar in development, so you might see something like this in the new magic book. But it's also a decent baseline that you could look at for a class based marilith.
I would go with marilith duskblade. Around 34th level, you'll be marilith 17/duskblade 17, so you can use improved channel spell to add disintegrate to each of your 11 attacks (assume hasted). 3740d6 damage.
I would go with marilith duskblade. Around 34th level, you'll be marilith 17/duskblade 17, so you can use improved channel spell to add disintegrate to each of your 11 attacks (assume hasted). 3740d6 damage.
Good idea. In fact, it's such a good inspiration that I've decided to make my character a half marilith, half vampire, half werewolf, half pixies, half dragon, half fiend. What do you think?
If you are caught up in doing a racial version, you might try this thread for building purposes. There are some good guidelines in there for racial abilities and such, including a point based racial builder. A good read regardless if you go with it or not.
If you are caught up in doing a racial version, you might try this thread for building purposes. There are some good guidelines in there for racial abilities and such, including a point based racial builder. A good read regardless if you go with it or not.
Thanks. I'll take a read and see if I can cook up something decent.
I think there was a multi-arm or multi-head template in the savage species book which is 3.x
It also had monster classes...which could be used to do so.
I would go with marilith duskblade. Around 34th level, you'll be marilith 17/duskblade 17, so you can use improved channel spell to add disintegrate to each of your 11 attacks (assume hasted). 3740d6 damage.
Duskblades can only channel Touch spells....disintegrate is not a Touch spell. So No you can't. Duskblade the most misunderstood class ever.
Though you can take levels of fighter or rogue(or both) till you get Dervish from complete warrior.
Using the race building guide, I've come up with something. I'm not sure I understood the ability score distribution correctly though.
Proto-marilith (or Lesser marilith)
+2 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha
The two negative points to Dexterity gave me 2 points; a proto-marilith has a powerful but stiff body, and has a strong force of will but lacks a social persona as it is seldom needed in the Abyss.
Darkvision 60ft
MultiarmDarkvision cost me 2 points and for Multiarm I used 1D6 natural attack (single) but upped it to 1D8 (for maximum damage a single-handed martial weapon can do) so it costs 5 points per "natural attack". I bought this four times for four extra limbs, a total of 20 points.
Vulnerability to cold
This is more akin to a balancing choice but it also does make sense for a lesser demon from the fiery depths of the seven layers of hell to have a weakness towards cold. This awarded me with four points.
Even with this I'm still 6 points under zero which I don't really fancy but I'd rather not just bloat the race with all kinds of weaknesses. So, as of right now, I'd label the race as a ECL+1, or ECL+2 at best.
Thoughts?
As far as the statistics for a regular Marilith are concerned, I have to think that a -2 to Cha isn't quite appropriate. It seems odd to me, however, that they are renowned for their tactics, but their lowest statistic is Intelligence. You did pick some good things here, and your numbers seem right. It is workable, but I figure I can just give you my opinion and see what you think.
Stats: +2 Str, -2 Dex, or +2 Int, -2 Dex
Darkvision 60'-- This is a good pick. Of all the marilith abilities, this is the easiest to get, and fits right in with other races.
Multiarm-- This is your bread and butter. I think it is fine that you have the limit to dex, it actually works well for this. you could possibly limit this instead to say that these attacks work like natural attacks, even if they have weapons in their hands. This would prevent abuse by giving them iterative attacks on every limb. Might be a bit much, especially with a bonus to strength. Besides, even the marilith doesn't get iterative attacks with every arm. (If this isn't a big deal, or your GM wouldn't let you do this anyway, I could limit it to d6's instead, scimitars and short swords would do fine)
Vulnerability to Cold-- this works great, and makes sense. It is a good way to balance the class along with...
Vulnerability to Cold Iron-- the marilith has cold iron bypassing her DR, so this would make sense too.
May not wear magical shoes or clothing that encloses each leg separately-- just decided to throw this out there, it may seem obvious, but it is also something you should consider to bring down the other advantages.
+2 racial bonus to perception-- Mariliths get a +8 racial bonus to perception, this is not a bad plan.
So, lets add that up...
-2 Negate racial bonus to one stat
+2 Darkvision
+16 Multiarm
-4 Vulnerability to Cold
-2 Vulnerability to Cold iron
-1 Situational modifier
+1 Perception bonus
+10 points, no level adjustments needed.
As far as balance goes, it could still be abused, but if it is for just one character, and your GM likes it, then any class would be fair game. If I were the GM, then I would keep a very close eye on a character with six arms, it could really outshine other characters pretty easy. If you do not go with a caster class or hang out with someone with a darn good disguise skill, any sort of social situations would bring widespread panic.
Still, its a cool idea, and in some situations, it might even be playable. I wish you the best finding a place where this could fit in.
Or alternately a tiefling with a ridiculously strong "taint" in the blood. I can't remember if half-fiends are native outsiders or not, but the tief approach keeps them in the game for raising. :)
I wonder...could building this character like an Eidolon be feasible? An Eidolon without a summoner, with a regular PC stat array... That way the character could easily evolve as she levels.
Someone should build a class like this, if it hasn't already been done... since the Summoner can shift the Eidolon's points onto themselves eventually, just give them this ability from level 1 and remove the Eidolon itself. Swap things like the casting and/or the Summon Monster SLA for full BAB and bigger hit die.
...Then for kicks get a Summoner cohort!
As far as the statistics for a regular Marilith are concerned, I have to think that a -2 to Cha isn't quite appropriate. It seems odd to me, however, that they are renowned for their tactics, but their lowest statistic is Intelligence. You did pick some good things here, and your numbers seem right. It is workable, but I figure I can just give you my opinion and see what you think.
Stats: +2 Str, -2 Dex, or +2 Int, -2 Dex
Darkvision 60'-- This is a good pick. Of all the marilith abilities, this is the easiest to get, and fits right in with other races.
Multiarm-- This is your bread and butter. I think it is fine that you have the limit to dex, it actually works well for this. you could possibly limit this instead to say that these attacks work like natural attacks, even if they have weapons in their hands. This would prevent abuse by giving them iterative attacks on every limb. Might be a bit much, especially with a bonus to strength. Besides, even the marilith doesn't get iterative attacks with every arm. (If this isn't a big deal, or your GM wouldn't let you do this anyway, I could limit it to d6's instead, scimitars and short swords would do fine)
Vulnerability to Cold-- this works great, and makes sense. It is a good way to balance the class along with...
Vulnerability to Cold Iron-- the marilith has cold iron bypassing her DR, so this would make sense too.
May not wear magical shoes or clothing that encloses each leg separately-- just decided to throw this out there, it may seem obvious, but it is also something you should consider to bring down the other advantages.
+2 racial bonus to perception-- Mariliths get a +8 racial bonus to perception, this is not a bad plan.
So, lets add that up...
-2 Negate racial bonus to one stat
+2 Darkvision
+16 Multiarm
-4 Vulnerability to Cold
-2 Vulnerability to Cold iron
-1 Situational modifier
+1 Perception bonus+10 points, no level adjustments needed.
As far as balance goes, it could still be abused, but if...
Whoa! Those are some good additions. I can't believe I didn't think of cold iron... or turning shoes / pants into a restriction.
Going flat d6 - or flat anything - with Multiarm is... extremely limiting. I did consider something similar but I'm also keen on using two-handed weapons. This is probably the kind of thing I need to talk through with my DM. I think your version is good for gaming and I'm going to suggest it to my DM. Thanks for the trouble!
One thing though: should the proto-marilith stay large like the real bestiary monster or should it be reduced to medium? I can see the actual monster being large because of the massive snake tail and tail whip associated with it. I think, at best, proto-marilith would be large by length rather than overall size.
It should be medium-sized for starting play at level 1; large size is too much of an advantage at low levels (at least combined with the other abilities).
Think of the proto-marilith as some kind of "child" that hasn't yet grown to its full size.
I would allow the multi arms to just improve with lvl. 2 arms lvl 1. 4 at BaB 6 and 6 at 11. this balances it mostly with twf.
sure having to hold stuff I'n some of the arms is a shame but it would be balanced.
It should be medium-sized for starting play at level 1; large size is too much of an advantage at low levels (at least combined with the other abilities).
Think of the proto-marilith as some kind of "child" that hasn't yet grown to its full size.
I agree with this.
I also wouldn't worry about the damage dice. Remember, that unless you want extra difficulty to hit, you need to use light weapons in your off hands anyway. And d8 damage reduced to medium size will be d6 anyway. Most of the damage from later levels comes from other sources anyway, especially with the martial classes. Any other classes, and you will be focused more on spells. Although if you do go with some spell casting ability, I would recommend enlarge person.
Oh, and the damage is only for the natural attack, not for weapons wielded, I think. So it may not be as limiting as you think. But yeah, make sure your GM is okay with it. Glad to be of help.
All right, I sent the proto-marilith to my DM, with personal flavour text added.
Thanks to everyone who bothered to expend brain power on this, especially Oterisk for... doing all the hard work, and Mikaze for offering inspiration for the reason why the character wouldn't be evil.
Fingers crossed now.