All is in the title. I want my PCs to fight a giant dracolisk (a half-black dragon basilisk with the giant template). I want this fight to be really hard, because the last quest was a cake-walk for the PCs since I'm not used to run a campaing with 7 PCs and my BBEGs never rolled over 3 on a d20. However, I fear a TPK and I don't want that to happen, so I'm seeking your advice : do you think that seven 5th-level PCs can defeat a single CR 8 monster ?
PCs were made with the 15 points-buy system and they have maybe 80% of the suggested WBL. 5 of them are level 4 because of their race (2 drow, 1 githyanki, 1 svirfneblin and 1 tiefling), but they have roughly the WBL of 5th-level characters. Except for the Githyanki and the Svirfneblin, those are fairly powerful characters, not optimised, but viable.
This is the party :
-Hobgoblin Fighter 5
-Dwarf Alchemist 5
-Svirfneblin Summoner 4
-Drow Bard 4
-Drow Cleric 4
-Tiefling Ranger 4
-Githyanki Fighter 2 / Warmage 2
So, are they doomed?
|
All is in the title. I want my PCs to fight a giant dracolisk (a half-black dragon basilisk with the giant template). I want this fight to be really hard, because the last quest was a cake-walk for the PCs since I'm not used to run a campaing with 7 PCs and my BBEGs never rolled over 3 on a d20. However, I fear a TPK and I don't want that to happen, so I'm seeking your advice : do you think that seven 5th-level PCs can defeat a single CR 8 monster ?
PCs were made with the 15 points-buy system and they have maybe 80% of the suggested WBL. 5 of them are level 4 because of their race (2 drow, 1 githyanki, 1 svirfneblin and 1 tiefling), but they have roughly the WBL of 5th-level characters. Except for the Githyanki and the Svifneblin, those are fairly powerful characters, not optimised, but viable.
This is the party :
-Hobgoblin Fighter 5
-Dwarf Alchemist 5
-Svifneblin Summoner 4
-Drow Bard 4
-Drow Cleric 4
-Tiefling Ranger 4
-Githyanki Fighter 2 / Warmage 2So, are they doomed?
Well, I honestly don't know how the LA races would change things, but *supposedly* they are of equal power to a standard race of the adjusted value, so there shouldn't be a difference.
Generally speaking, a CR8 monster is a 'very hard' fight for 5 5th level PCs. You have 7, so it stands to figure it would only be a 'hard' fight. Now, as I said, the LA races or the 80% WBL might change the odds against them, but even so, I'd have another 1 CR or so worth of adds waiting in the wings.
It depends on the CR 8 creature, and the party.
Seriously. Some CR 8's can be taken down easy by that many people.
If you want my suggestion, I wouldn't put them up against a single CR 8. I'd put them up against 4 6's. The economy of actions 7 PCs get against 1 creature is going to be extremely difficult to overcome.
The problem is the save or die ability of the Giant Dracolisk : if the PCs are dumb enough to look at the creature directly in the eyes (I will provide clues for them before the fight, to let them know that this would be a very, very bad idea), the Fort DC to succeed their saving throw is something like 20: except for the Fighter and the Alchemist, this is almost an auto-miss. On the other hand, if they close their eyes, I fear that the dracolisk will tear them appart since they will be denied of their Dex bonus to AC.
We faught a Normal Dracolisk with 5 lvl 6's it was a fun fight but No one died. Used an Ever smoking bottle to make sure our back ranks couldnt get stoned.
If you leave Statues up or whatnot even smashed ones they may get the hint. Though i think players dislike concealment enough to somehow think risking the fort save is a better option.
It depends on the CR 8 creature, and the party.
Seriously. Some CR 8's can be taken down easy by that many people.
If you want my suggestion, I wouldn't put them up against a single CR 8. I'd put them up against 4 6's. The economy of actions 7 PCs get against 1 creature is going to be extremely difficult to overcome.
Yes and no. You see, unless you completly close your eyes (and then become effectively blinded for 1 round), the dracolisk has a chance to turn you into stone at the beginning of your turn so, I a certain way, the dracolisk ''acts'' every time a PC acts. I think that makes up for the loss of economy of actions. If you try to avoid the gaze without closing your eyes, you still have a 50% chance of looking the creature in the eyes, and you suffer a 20% miss chance against it.
The problem is the save or die ability of the Giant Dracolisk : if the PCs are dumb enough to look at the creature directly in the eyes (I will provide clues for them before the fight, to let them know that this would be a very, very bad idea), the Fort DC to succeed their saving throw is something like 20: except for the Fighter and the Alchemist, this is almost an auto-miss. On the other hand, if they close their eyes, I fear that the dracolisk will tear them appart since they will be denied of their Dex bonus to AC.
I'd give them the option of using mirrors to fight then. Let them know ahead of time they face a dracolich, and see if they come up with the idea of mirrored shields. If not, give them a hint (have a mirror on the table for example). :) Makes it hard, but not impossible (say a -2 AC -2 BAB while using the mirrors, and require a reflex save to not look if they do something fancy).
The problem is the save or die ability of the Giant Dracolisk : if the PCs are dumb enough to look at the creature directly in the eyes (I will provide clues for them before the fight, to let them know that this would be a very, very bad idea), the Fort DC to succeed their saving throw is something like 20: except for the Fighter and the Alchemist, this is almost an auto-miss. On the other hand, if they close their eyes, I fear that the dracolisk will tear them appart since they will be denied of their Dex bonus to AC.I'd give them the option of using mirrors to fight then. Let them know ahead of time they face a dracolich, and see if they come up with the idea of mirrored shields. If not, give them a hint (have a mirror on the table for example). :) Makes it hard, but not impossible (say a -2 AC -2 BAB while using the mirrors, and require a reflex save to not look if they do something fancy).
If that could work, how a basilisk would be able to mate with another basilisk? :P
I intend to put some petrified creatures on the path of the PCs before the fight. Since this will be an wilderness encounter, they won't mistake the petrified creatures for pieces of art. I will also put some petrified creatures on the battlefield for cover. And don't worry, the dracolisk will have a BIG treasure : the legendary belt of healing from the Magic Items Compendium + some gold pieces, hehe. :)
If that could work, how a basilisk could mate with another basilisk? :PThe problem is the save or die ability of the Giant Dracolisk : if the PCs are dumb enough to look at the creature directly in the eyes (I will provide clues for them before the fight, to let them know that this would be a very, very bad idea), the Fort DC to succeed their saving throw is something like 20: except for the Fighter and the Alchemist, this is almost an auto-miss. On the other hand, if they close their eyes, I fear that the dracolisk will tear them appart since they will be denied of their Dex bonus to AC.I'd give them the option of using mirrors to fight then. Let them know ahead of time they face a dracolich, and see if they come up with the idea of mirrored shields. If not, give them a hint (have a mirror on the table for example). :) Makes it hard, but not impossible (say a -2 AC -2 BAB while using the mirrors, and require a reflex save to not look if they do something fancy).
Because they are immune to basilisk gazes. :)
Because they are immune to basilisk gazes. :)
So they are immune to the gaze of other basilisk, but not to their own gaze? :\
Are the use of mirrored shield described in the rules? I remember reading about it, but I don't remember the exact effects of using a mirrored shield.
I would expect them to be able to beat this encounter. Though a number are likely to end up petrified.
Yeah I hope you're right. As long as they don't end up ALL petrified, they are going to be fine. I guess that there is enough blood in a GIANT dracolisk's belly to unpretrify them all.
Yeah I hope you're right. As long as they don't end up ALL petrified, they are going to be fine. I guess that there is enough blood in a GIANT dracolisk's belly to unpretrify them all.Yeah, but is there a player among them who would be able to succeed on a knowledge roll to know that's a possible way to cure the petrification? Hopefully one who ends up surviving unpetrified (or who passes on the information before becoming petrified).
That's what Bards are good for, right? :)
Because they are immune to basilisk gazes. :)So they are immune to the gaze of other basilisk, but not to their own gaze? :\
Are the use of mirrored shield described in the rules? I remember reading about it, but I don't remember the exact effects of using a mirrored shield.
An adult basilisk is 13 feet long, with fully half of that made up by its long tail, and weighs 300 pounds. Some breeds have short, curved horns on their noses or small crests of bony growths topping their heads like crowns. Though normally solitary creatures, coming together only to mate and lay eggs, in particularly dangerous areas small groups may band together for protection and attack intruders en masse.
Quite obviously, the basilisks have to be immune to both their own gaze attacks, and other basilisks gaze attacks, else they could not attack in concert or congregate with each other.
Averting Eyes: The opponent avoids looking at the creature's face, instead looking at its body, watching its shadow, tracking it in a reflective surface, etc. Each round, the opponent has a 50% chance to avoid having to make a saving throw against the gaze attack. The creature with the gaze attack, however, gains concealment against that opponent.
From the entry for Gaze attacks in the Universal Monster Rules.
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
I'm pretty sure this scene from Clash of the Titans will explain everything about fighting a medusa with a reflection.
This movie should seriously be required viewing for all D&D players by now. :)
If that could work, how a basilisk would be able to mate with another basilisk? :P
They don't look eachother in the eyes...
I guess that explains why dracolisks exist: if a basilisk doesn't look at his/her mate, he/she can't know with what he/she's mating. ;)
|
The big question is how much experience does the party members have? If this is their first go, they could get wiped pretty good. Also will they have a chance to meet the monster on their terms? That could make a huge difference no matter the experience of the players. Reguardless it would be a good fight for them and a fun monster to run for you :)
A CR 8 is normally a boss fight for 4 PC's at 5th level. I expect for 7 of then to kill the monster quickly.
If they know what they are fighting before hand I am expecting for them to lock it down with a battlefield control spell, and use ranged attacks.
The big question is how much experience does the party members have? If this is their first go, they could get wiped pretty good. Also will they have a chance to meet the monster on their terms? That could make a huge difference no matter the experience of the players. Reguardless it would be a good fight for them and a fun monster to run for you :)
The party is a mix between very experienced players (but not optimisers) and newbies.
They will met the creature in the forest, or should I say in a clearing in the forest, so it will be able to fly. However, it will close in as soon as it can to use its gaze against the PCs (using is breath weapon in the first round of battle). The dracolisk will be resting on top of small hill and will probably see the PCs coming from afar. The PCs will have 1 round for using ranged attacks against the dracolisk, out of range of its gaze. The dracolisk will probably destroy the Summoner's Eidolon in a single round (the second round) in melee, then it will start to annihilate the PCs one by one.
A CR 8 is normally a boss fight for 4 PC's at 5th level. I expect for 7 of then to kill the monster quickly.
If they know what they are fighting before hand I am expecting for them to lock it down with a battlefield control spell, and use ranged attacks.
Sadly, there's no decent wizard in the party. Their only battlefield control spell is grease and they didn't bought scrolls of web or anything. :\
The only thing the Summoner is good at is casting Haste. The Warmage is a waste of space. I expect them to end up toe-to-toe with the dracolisk. I don't know if this will end up in a TPK (that's why I want to know your advice), but this is surely going to hurt (unless the critical hit deck smiles to the PCs).
No they are not doom
though their survival Rate will depend on a few Things.
1. do they know what they are facing?
2. do they have Prep Time before the encounter?
3. do they have good team work?
if they meet even 2 of these things they should be able to handle it with almost no deaths
heck if the have item 2 that will make it a hard fight and a few might be lost but they will pull it off.
No is is based on My group's dynamics and that will effect the final outcome.
No they are not doom
though their survival Rate will depend on a few Things.
1. do they know what they are facing?
2. do they have Prep Time before the encounter?
3. do they have good team work?
if they meet even 2 of these things they should be able to handle it with almost no deaths
heck if the have item 2 that will make it a hard fight and a few might be lost but they will pull it off.
No is is based on My group's dynamics and that will effect the final outcome.
1. Yes
2. No3. They have 1 Bard and 1 Summoner to buff the party during the battle, and the Cleric only buffs himself, if this is what you mean.
Maybe they will take it as a learning experience if they lose and get some team tactics going.
PS:Personally there comes a time when a DM should stop bring an encounter down to the PC's level, and make them step up. I don't know how good your players are, but it is something to keep in mind.
|
I just skimmed the thread, and couldn't tell how familiar you are with pgs 397-398 of the CRB.
Some of the math - your group's APL is still 5, just over 4 average +1 for 6 or more characters.
An Epic encounter (sounds like what you want) is APL +3, so your guess of 8 is correct.
Assuming they are at full resources, it is definitely survivable, but difficult.
However, math aside, 1 creature is always easier to defeat than multiple, because they only act on one initiative count. I would say that even CR 9 is not impossible for a party of 7 - depending on spells available, DR they have to overcome, etc. The gaze attack is definitely a factor here.
I would actually stick with the CR 8 and give it a terrain feature or something to make it slightly more difficult.
Some of the other suggestions: 4 CR 6 monsters is a CR 10 encounter, and a CR 8 and 4 CR 6's is around 11-12.
I doubt they will have too much trouble with a CR8 if there are 7 party members.
I just skimmed the thread, and couldn't tell how familiar you are with pgs 397-398 of the CRB.
Some of the math - your group's APL is still 5, just over 4 average +1 for 6 or more characters.
An Epic encounter (sounds like what you want) is APL +3, so your guess of 8 is correct.Assuming they are at full resources, it is definitely survivable, but difficult.
However, math aside, 1 creature is always easier to defeat than multiple, because they only act on one initiative count. I would say that even CR 9 is not impossible for a party of 7 - depending on spells available, DR they have to overcome, etc. The gaze attack is definitely a factor here.
I would actually stick with the CR 8 and give it a terrain feature or something to make it slightly more difficult.
Some of the other suggestions: 4 CR 6 monsters is a CR 10 encounter, and a CR 8 and 4 CR 6's is around 11-12.
I usually use multiples monsters instead of a single, very strong, monster. That's why I don't know what to expect from this fight. Since the dracolisk is a solitary creature, I don't want to give it allies. I just want to create an epic ''PCs vs Dragon'' battle that wouldn't end in a TPK or a cake-walk. I want the players to yell : ''omg we're alive!'' at the end of the battle. :)
Maybe they will take it as a learning experience if they lose and get some team tactics going.
PS:Personally there comes a time when a DM should stop bring an encounter down to the PC's level, and make them step up. I don't know how good your players are, but it is something to keep in mind.
It's an homebrew campaing, so I'm trying the create the perfect encounter for the PCs, I'm not nerfing a scripted encounter for them. The ECL is also a b*$#& to work with, since we all know that a 4th-level drow is not equal to a 5th-level elf.
It's an homebrew campaing, so I'm trying the create the perfect encounter for the PCs, I'm not nerfing a scripted encounter for them. The ECL is also a b$@%~ to work with, since we all know that a 4th-level drow is not equal to a 5th-level elf.Maybe they will take it as a learning experience if they lose and get some team tactics going.
PS:Personally there comes a time when a DM should stop bring an encounter down to the PC's level, and make them step up. I don't know how good your players are, but it is something to keep in mind.
If it is the regular drow it wont be much difference. If it is a noble then that is a big difference.
7 party members is not really equal to 4 party members of the same level.
I would split the group in two, and pick the monsters that way.
3 level 5 characters is about the same as an APL of 4 so in theory a CR 8 and an CR 6 would be a good fight.
1. Yes
2. No3. They have 1 Bard and 1 Summoner to buff the party during the battle, and the Cleric only buffs himself, if this is what you mean.
1. That helps
2. they do have one round of Ranged attack that the Buffers could use to ready for the fight unless they have very effective range combat spells3. sort of though this will depend in if the cleric is buff himself so that he is a better healer or for melee combat on the front line
but I do agree with the others they should be able to handle it they may get mauled but you should not have a TPK unless really poor rolls or dumb/selfish actions on the players part though.
I do know what its like to send critters in to an encounter only to have the poor team work maul or TPK the party though.
|
|
I usually use multiples monsters instead of a single, very strong, monster. That's why I don't know what to expect from this fight. Since the dracolisk is a solitary creature, I don't want to give it allies. I just want to create an epic ''PCs vs Dragon'' battle that wouldn't end in a TPK or a cake-walk. I want the players to yell : ''omg we're alive!'' at the end of the battle. :)
Understood, and I think that you have correctly balanced the encounter to be difficult by the numbers, while identifying the area of concern (save or die).
Also why I suggested a terrain feature if you want to increase CR, rather than a flunky or further template.Definitely survivable though, depending on dice, tactics, preparation...
:)
Is there a way to remove the typo from the title? I feel ashamed. XD
In a vacuum they will destroy this thing. however if the terrain isn't in their favor (like the dracolisk can fly) then they will get destroyed.
You mean if the dracolisk just hover above the PCs' heads and attack them with his gaze?
Just looking at CR and the classes at a quick glance, it certainly isn't too powerful. Yvicca, a sea hag with 5 levels of druid is said to be a CR 7 (though herlab says 8) and that's against only 4 5th level characters with 15 point buy, animal companion and a newly summoned shark so I assume CR 8 won't be too powerful, especially taking in account the summoner's Eidolon and what powers that might have.
A fight vs one monster is always easy because the players can simply burn all abilities to it.
If you want a hard and fun encounter use multpile enemies, terrain etc.
You have a very big group and also very good composed.
Use the "half-black..wathever" and some "cannon fodder" like kobolds etc. then set up a nice location with multiple levels and pits and it will go.
as for the TPK, you are the DM you can always fudge the dices and make a crit hit a non crit. :)
my level 10 party in kingmaker, have found the lair of 4 dracolisks...they had a good chat, then all decided to run away!
if everyone closes their eyes have the basilisk breathe and move
i dont think dracolisks can mate, basilisk can, as can the dragon and a basilisk...id have thought
Maybe you could have them find the remains (including some statues) of them last party that tryed to figth the dracolisk. Along with the remains they could finde some usefull items. maybe: 10 keen +2 arrows of Icy Burst and some potions: 1 Protection from acid, 1 bull's strength, 1 Stoneskin and 1 Haste
-Hobgoblin Fighter 5
-Dwarf Alchemist 5
-Svirfneblin Summoner 4
-Drow Bard 4
-Drow Cleric 4
-Tiefling Ranger 4
-Githyanki Fighter 2 / Warmage 2
it seems you are playing a mix of pathfinder and 3.5, if you are using pathfinder races I think the (non-noble) drow and tiefling should not get a level adjustment.
Githyanki I recall to be quite powerful and probably deserves the +1 adjustment, though the multiclass detracts from it's power I think
Svirfneblin definately deserves the level adjustment.
I think the party will win the fight, but you should expect some heavy casualties and if they have suffered one or more encounters before the dracolisk it might be too hard. Especially if the dracolisks can ambush them.
|
I strongly believe 7 PC's will stomp an APL+3 Encounter, which is what you're describing. The game is one of action economy; 7 actions to the PC's side vs. 1 on the dracolisk's side makes for a strong advantage to the PC's. I doubt they'll have much trouble.
And remember - petrification isn't fatal. It's really just an inconvenience, unless everybody gets petrified.
I usually use multiples monsters instead of a single, very strong, monster. That's why I don't know what to expect from this fight. Since the dracolisk is a solitary creature, I don't want to give it allies. I just want to create an epic ''PCs vs Dragon'' battle that wouldn't end in a TPK or a cake-walk. I want the players to yell : ''omg we're alive!'' at the end of the battle. :)
This kind of battle only happens by accident. Single enemy are pretty much required to be either a big let down or a near tpk. There isnt a middle ground unless you fudge things heavily mid fight. Especially with a 7 player party, either the action econonmy is going to overwhelm the monster for a disappointing fight, or the enemy is too powerful and poses too much of a threat to any single party member, such as a save or die effect that some members of the party can barely save against, or does so much damage that a single full attack would outright kill most of the party.
Basically you cannot do the thing you want reliably within the rules. You will have to manipulate them before and during the fight. Or you can take your chances, but your odds are not good.
I strongly believe 7 PC's will stomp an APL+3 Encounter, which is what you're describing. The game is one of action economy; 7 actions to the PC's side vs. 1 on the dracolisk's side makes for a strong advantage to the PC's. I doubt they'll have much trouble.
And remember - petrification isn't fatal. It's really just an inconvenience, unless everybody gets petrified.
It isnt fatal on its own, but it is fatal if the odds of it happening are too high. That is the problem with single enemy encounters, things arent scaled right. If the odds of having to save are 50% (assuming they try to avert their eyes), and the DC is 20 for level 4 and 5 characters you are looking at a good propability of more then one player petrified per round. Action economy wont mean a damn if they are all petrified.
|
|
IF you want an Epic battle, Just Fudge The Creature's HP.
Have it up and Alive until the Party is almost out of resources, then have it finally Die. Moderate its Dmg, Spread it around and don't Focus on Just one PC. If you are worried about the Save, nerf it abit. Say the Draco has only 1 eye, so the Fort save is only 18 (or something that is a 50% chance for your PCs. how ever hard you want it.
Here's a way to figure encounters for larger parties:
Set aside APL (which only gives rough rules of thumb for larger or smaller groups)
Calculate the PARTY's CR. PCs with full PC gear have a CR equal to their level (as opposed to PC class NPCs with NPC value gear, which are level-1). The totall XP value of the party described in the OP is 9200, which is just shy of a CR10.
Now bring back APL. APL = The party's CR -4.
(Here's the math on that: The way the CR chart is constructed, if you subtract 4 from the CR, you get the same number as if you divided the XP by four, which would be the number for a group of 4 individuals of that CR value. I.E. a 4 character party.)
Then just use that APL calculation to compare to the CR of the encounter you plan. In this case, the Party's APL would actually be just between 5th and 6th. This would make a CR8 encounter somewhere between a ALP+2(hard) and ALP +3(epic). These encounters are still winnable, but carry a significant risk of PC death, which tracks with the estimates previous posters have suggested. There's also another way to do it, that gets rid of the APL concept altogether:
Just caculate the CR of the party and compare it to the CR of the encoutner, using this guildline:
Easy encoutner CR = party CR-5
Average encoutner CR = party CR-4
Challenging CR = party CR-3
Hard = party CR-2
Epic = party CR-1
Any encounter where the CR of the party matches the CR of the threat is an even fight - which means both side should kill each other in a mutual elim, guaranteeing at lease some PC fatalities and only at best a 50/50 chance of the PCs winning a last man standing kind of pirric victory, which is why encoutners are always heavily weighed against the monsters.
Not also, this will start to break down where really big parties meet single creatures because the creature of such high CR relative to individual PCs can become unhittable and their attacks unmissable. Encoutners should usually be group vs. group, with boss fights involving at least a few minions. But solo boss fights are iconic too, and it should be easy to catch if this is a problem - just spot check the attack bonuses and saves against the AC and DCs. If a lot of the party has to practically roll 20s to succeed in anything, water it down a weaker boss and more mooks.
