I find this crazy. Why is grit wis? It screams Cha to me...
I find this crazy. Why is grit wis? It screams Cha to me...
Grit = willpower = Wisdom. Ki = force of personality = Charisma. My 2 cp on it anyway.
Just because a monk's ki uses wisdom doesn't mean all future iterations of that ability must go off the same stat. Sorcerers and wizards both cast arcane spells, but they use different ability scores to do so.
As far as grit being based of wisdom goes, the classic image of the gunslinger (cowboys) has always included gunplay as a mental exercise. Think of zen archery, but with a gun.
My cowboys had always been simply shoot first and then shoot second. No zen archery stuff. Just lots of reputation.. You don't become known as Billy the Kid for having no cha and lots of wisdom.
I don't see them being western monks with guns.. I see them being the badass, which typically badassness means you get cha.
And it has nothing to do with monk, it has everything to do with the previous rendition of the ninja. The original ninja from 3.5 had a ki-pool and it had ran off wisdom.
Sorc/Wizards..
Alright, yes, if we're talking about Doc Holiday or Billy the Kid, we've got some cowboys with some swagger, but there are plenty of less ostentatious men out there who I'd attribute a high wisdom to before I would a high cha. Wyatt Earp, Seth Bullock, or perhaps the greatest fantasy cowboy ever, Roland Deschain. Especially that last one, who has become an iconic character for fantasy westerns. For Roland, there's definitely something spiritual about his guns.
one way to look at it is simply as this, Wis works better than Cha for a combat class.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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I don't think badassness is really all that tied to Charisma either. You can have an uncharismatic badass, after all.
I see it more about not taking s#@% from anyone, and/or kicking ass in the face of overwhelming odds.
While that's primarily a personality trait, and thus not necessarily something you derive from an Ability score, I think the 'dedication' aspect of Wisdom fits pretty well for a badass. As for the gunslinger, Wisdom certainly fits perfectly for grit, which is synonymous with courage and determination.
Alright, yes, if we're talking about Doc Holiday or Billy the Kid, we've got some cowboys with some swagger, but there are plenty of less ostentatious men out there who I'd attribute a high wisdom to before I would a high cha. Wyatt Earp, Seth Bullock, or perhaps the greatest fantasy cowboy ever, Roland Deschain. Especially that last one, who has become an iconic character for fantasy westerns. For Roland, there's definitely something spiritual about his guns.
Wait what? Roland?
In The Waste Lands, Susannah compares Roland first to Marshal Matt Dillon of Gunsmoke, but later comes to believe he is more like John F. Kennedy. While she acknowledges that Roland lacks the president's imagination, both men have similar levels of charisma, cunning, and romance.
Granted, I've never read the comics.. so this character may be completely off.. but the spiritual thing.. is not not that his guns are made out of a sword throwing from some watery tart?
But the Wyatt Earp.. A monk with a gun? Hardly. Now I don't know about you.. But I live in Tucson. Wyatt was a ladies man in his earlier years. He's even gotten arrested for being in a brothel.
Coarse even though I was raised in Montana, I don't know much about Seth Bullock. Apparently no one really does.
(Yes, I was born in phoenix, moved up to Montana and eventually back down to Arizona. the wild west has always been a pretty big part, especially since I would frequent the Charlie Russel museum. )
Okay, maybe in real life, you just shoot a guy, but the fantasy cowboy has been building a really romanticized image over the years in which they're almost like a (equally stylized) samurai, and that's the gunslinger that Paizo seems to be playing to.
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Wait what? Roland?
In The Waste Lands, Susannah compares Roland first to Marshal Matt Dillon of Gunsmoke, but later comes to believe he is more like John F. Kennedy. While she acknowledges that Roland lacks the president's imagination, both men have similar levels of charisma, cunning, and romance.Granted, I've never read the comics.. so this character may be completely off.. but the spiritual thing.. is not not that his guns are made out of a sword throwing from some watery tart?
I can see Roland as charismatic, but mostly in a 'leadership' sort of way. There's something regal about him, descended from kings and all that junk. He's very much uncharismatic in most other ways, and definitely doesn't bring much charisma to his gunslinging.
Wow, just wow.
I posted a thread in the Ninja section asking why Cha over Wis for ki. I was lambasted by the moral majority on these forums for it. Now, when someone ask why Wis over Cha for grit people are talking about how non-optimal it is.
I swear to Gawd it's like watching lemmings go over a cliff. You just have to follow the piper and attack anyone who questions it.
Ki should be Wisdom because that fits what ki, classically and literarily is. Grit should be Cha because that's where your swagger and confidence comes from.
Feel free to argue the point, but I care more about flavor and style than mechanics. If I wanted optimal characters for an optimal game and didn't care about things making sense then I'd play 4th edition.
I find this crazy. Why is grit wis? It screams Cha to me...
Ditto.
I believe I (or Paizo) can make a case for Ninja Ki being based on CHA. Several different cases in fact. But all of those cases apply equally, even more, to "grit."
Consistency is king. This is drastically inconsistent.
Considering that one of the means of obtaining grit is/was by performing "daring acts," I agree that Wisdom is hardly the appropriate ability for it. But personally, I don't think that Charisma fits the bill either - I honestly think that Intelligence is what it should be based on. A lot of the gunslinger "tricks" seem to be something that someone would gain from knowledge (Quick Clear, for example), and like the Duelist, I imagine that Gunslingers have a ton of wit. Comparatively, cowboys from the likes of The Man With No Name to Roland are awfully intelligent.
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The definition of Grit is Courage, Fearlessness, and Guts. It's keeping your wits about you when things get hairy. That screams Wisdom to me.
I don't see it as Charisma because it isn't about being flashy or boastful, you needn't swagger or show-off while using or earning Grit. Even the optional rule, Daring Act, has nothing to do with being impressive or showy (although daring acts are often impressive, leading to some overlap), it's about taking chances. Specifically, not being afraid to take chances. Prove your courage, i.e. prove you have grit, and you earn a Grit point.
Intelligence I think is even farther off. Being smart (especially book-smart, which is generally what Int represents) has very little to do with grit. While there are a couple deeds which arguably could represent knowledge of some sort (quick clear), the vast majority of deeds are about being quick and/or accurate. Basing Grit off what the deeds actually do thus gives us Dex, which I think we can rule out for balance issues.
The definition of Grit is Courage, Fearlessness, and Guts. It's keeping your wits about you when things get hairy. That screams Wisdom to me.
I don't see it as Charisma because it isn't about being flashy or boastful, you needn't swagger or show-off while using or earning Grit. Even the optional rule, Daring Act, has nothing to do with being impressive or showy (although daring acts are often impressive, leading to some overlap), it's about taking chances. Specifically, not being afraid to take chances. Prove your courage, i.e. prove you have grit, and you earn a Grit point.
Intelligence I think is even farther off. Being smart (especially book-smart, which is generally what Int represents) has very little to do with grit. While there are a couple deeds which arguably could represent knowledge of some sort (quick clear), the vast majority of deeds are about being quick and/or accurate. Basing Grit off what the deeds actually do thus gives us Dex, which I think we can rule out for balance issues.
Then there should be no bards.
There is a thing called stage fright. And if we want to say that if anything refers to it being "fearless" then obviously performance should be wisdom based.
Okay, maybe in real life, you just shoot a guy, but the fantasy cowboy has been building a really romanticized image over the years in which they're almost like a (equally stylized) samurai, and that's the gunslinger that Paizo seems to be playing to.
Even the romanticized ones. Vash the stampeade, the good the bad and the weird..
House Rule: When making a Monk, Ninja, Gunslinger, you can choose either Wis or Cha to determine Ki/Grit.
Wait what? Roland?
In The Waste Lands, Susannah compares Roland first to Marshal Matt Dillon of Gunsmoke, but later comes to believe he is more like John F. Kennedy. While she acknowledges that Roland lacks the president's imagination, both men have similar levels of charisma, cunning, and romance.Granted, I've never read the comics.. so this character may be completely off.. but the spiritual thing.. is not not that his guns are made out of a sword throwing from some watery tart?
I can see Roland as charismatic, but mostly in a 'leadership' sort of way. There's something regal about him, descended from kings and all that junk. He's very much uncharismatic in most other ways, and definitely doesn't bring much charisma to his gunslinging.
How is he "Uncharismatic".. Is it because he is intimidating? The little bit I just read in the book, he was referred to as being a politician once, and was constantly changing the subject to give someone time to heal. He didn't do it abruptly either, instead he did it that the other character susannah barely even noticed it.
Look at clint eastwood in dirty harry. The infamous "Do you feel lucky" That's very much charisma. A combination between bluff and intimidate.
There are many paths the CHA argument can go down. We can say CHA means this, or CHA means that, or whatever. The important thing for this thread, is that there is no definition of CHA where Ninja Ki *is* based on it and Gunslinger Grit *isn't*.
If one is CHA'd, then the other has to be CHA'd. Any argument that can apply to Ninja is easily applied to the gunslinger in spades.
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Then there should be no bards.
There is a thing called stage fright. And if we want to say that if anything refers to it being "fearless" then obviously performance should be wisdom based.
I'm not sure I get this argument?
It takes courage to perform on stage, but performing on stage isn't synonymous with courage. Plenty of people overcome stage fright and put on a lousy show. This is because performing is it's own talent (one that in game terms requires charisma), separate and distinct from overcoming stage fright.
Grit on the other hand isn't just something you need to courage to have or do. It IS Courage. They are synonymous. They could have called them Courage Points and it would have meant the same thing (but been a lot less flavorful with respect to the Gunslinger.)
How is he "Uncharismatic".. Is it because he is intimidating? The little bit I just read in the book, he was referred to as being a politician once, and was constantly changing the subject to give someone time to heal. He didn't do it abruptly either, instead he did it that the other character susannah barely even noticed it.
Look at clint eastwood in dirty harry. The infamous "Do you feel lucky" That's very much charisma. A combination between bluff and intimidate.
It's been a while since I've read the books, but I remember him being rather gruff and taciturn. That's what I meant by uncharismatic (perhaps not the best word). Certainly over the course of 7 books, he's had moments where he's been charismatic (intimidating or bluffing people), or intelligent (speaks 5 languages), but overall I'd say Charisma never struck me as one of Roland's defining characteristics. That was always Eddie's schtick.
Of course, that's my subjective analysis, YMMV.
Notice though Halflings and Gnomes vs Dwarf.
For example right off.. Halflings are nimble and strong-willed
Gnomes and Halfings both have the ability to be fearless gaining a bonus to fear effects..
Dwarfs on the other hand? Nope.
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Notice though Halflings and Gnomes vs Dwarf.
For example right off.. Halflings are nimble and strong-willed
Gnomes and Halfings both have the ability to be fearless gaining a bonus to fear effects..
Dwarfs on the other hand? Nope.
And if you subject all three of them to a fear effect, they'd use what save?
Or intimidate them, what Ability score would give them a bonus to resist?
And when each of them takes levels in fighter, and they get the Bravery ability, that improves what saving throw?
Wisdom is what resists fear. Specific racial features don't change that fact.
I think grit should be based on comliness and we should invent a new stat we have to roll up and generate for no particular reason! oh wait, that happened once!
I think grit should be based on comliness and we should invent a new stat we have to roll up and generate for no particular reason! oh wait, that happened once!I love this idea. Lets use it for Ninjas too.
Oh look! it's a pretty ninja! (that makes them more deadly! Run!)
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Oh look! it's a pretty ninja! (that makes them more deadly! Run!)I think grit should be based on comliness and we should invent a new stat we have to roll up and generate for no particular reason! oh wait, that happened once!I love this idea. Lets use it for Ninjas too.
This is what makes the Ninja so deadly. You know you should run, but you can't look away.
Notice though Halflings and Gnomes vs Dwarf.
For example right off.. Halflings are nimble and strong-willed
Gnomes and Halfings both have the ability to be fearless gaining a bonus to fear effects..
Dwarfs on the other hand? Nope.
And if you subject all three of them to a fear effect, they'd use what save?
Or intimidate them, what Ability score would give them a bonus to resist?
And when each of them takes levels in fighter, and they get the Bravery ability, that improves what saving throw?
Wisdom is what resists fear. Specific racial features don't change that fact.
The only reason the mechanics of will are based off wisdom is because of legacy.
The specific racial features, including the class feature of paladin, Feats of 3.5, feats of pathfinder.. All of this suggests that there is an overlap.
Let’s look at the ability descriptions for a moment.
Intelligence (Int): Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons. This ability is important for wizards because it affects their spellcasting ability in many ways. Creatures of animal-level instinct have Intelligence scores of 1 or 2. Any creature capable of understanding speech has a score of at least 3.
• Learning, memory retention, reasoning – thus wizards and alchemists require this as a key ability.
Wisdom (Wis): Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, awareness, and intuition. Wisdom is the most important ability for clerics and druids, and it is also important for paladins and rangers. If you want your character to have acute senses, put a high score in Wisdom.
• Gunslingers rely on determination, perseverance, and bravery - or “grit”!! They also rely on their awareness to everything around them to give them an edge in gunfights, and use of common sense to stay one step ahead of their opponents. Thus Wisdom is the best ability for them as a whole + Dexterity of course. Although strength of personality (Cha) can also be important, grit (Wis) is far more a core ability for them. I would suspect some type of Cha-based gunslinger archetype from UC.
Charisma (Cha): Charisma measures a character’s personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance. It is the most important ability for paladins, sorcerers, and bards.
• Ninjas rely a lot on their strong personalities to get them through things, as well as the “legendary hyperbole” and “reputations” as mere shadows and assassins to illicit fear in others.
Yes, you can argue one way or the other on any number of abilities. However, the point is to find the “primary” physical and mental ability scores that are the “heart” of the class. That is the crux.
Ninjas – Dex and Cha (agility and their mythical reputation)
Samurai – Str and Cha (battle prowess and again, legendary leadership and reputation)
Gunslinger – Dex and Wis (speed with a gun, and their willpower a.k.a. grit)
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The only reason the mechanics of will are based off wisdom is because of legacy.The specific racial features, including the class feature of paladin, Feats of 3.5, feats of pathfinder.. All of this suggests that there is an overlap.
Ah, so we should throw out one of the core mechanics of the game because you don't like the way it affects the Gunslinger? Or is your desire to change the Gunslinger just an outgrowth of your general disdain for the idea of Wisdom being connected to Will saves and resistance to Intimidate checks?
Because if we're just talking about the Gunslinger, it seems to me you want it to be Charisma based because you have a preconceived idea about what the Gunslinger should be (a rootin' tootin' wild west rogueish type) and want to see the Gunslinger changed to fit that. If that's the case, that's a perfectly valid argument! I happen to disagree (I like the Gunslinger as-is), but I can respect your desire to see it changed (maybe call them "Swagger Points" instead of Grit points).
What I can't agree with is the idea that, as written, the Gunslinger should be Cha based. I just don't see it. Grit, as defined, works so much better as Wisdom based on everything the game says about Wisdom (legacy rules and all).
As for the implied connections between Cha and resisting fear...
Racial Features: Halfings (and some Gnomes) are fearless in addition to having a bonus to Cha, not because of it. Proof: Their bonus to fear isn't based on their Cha, and there are several other races that get a bonus to Cha, but don't get bonuses against fear.
Paladin Class Features: Paladins get bonuses to their saves and are immune to fear because they're blessed by the gods/forces of good/etc. This bonus is based off Charisma because it reflects their ability to garner favor among and channel the will of the gods/forces of good/etc. Proof: Charisma applies to all saves equally (so by the same logic Charisma represents one's ability to resist infection and dodge fireballs?) and if they fall out of favor with the gods/forces of good/etc., they lose their bonus to saves and their immunity to fear.
Feats: It is possible in 3.5 to use Cha in place of Wis for Will saves. It requires a feat, from a splatbook. Rationally then, shouldn't using Cha for Grit require at least that same feat? At most it might even need it's own, separate feat, sort of like the Kung Fu Genius feat from Dragon Magazine that let you use Int in place of Wis for your Monk bonuses.
Wisdom gun slingers..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf3IkT2UyZ8
Charisma Ninjas..
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/soul_eater/v00/c001.2/6.html
><
Wisdom gun slingers..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf3IkT2UyZ8Charisma Ninjas..
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/soul_eater/v00/c001.2/6.html><
You may be mistaken on what charisma looks like. That dude is an annoying little s~+&. Being loud and outspoken absolutely does not make you charismatic. The main character from ninja assassin on the other hand is quiet, good looking, and can make you trust him (and lets face it that movie involved only fantasy ninjas), that's charisma.
I think the cognitive dissonance is coming from the fact that cha should really have nothing to do with either class. I think a barbarian should have more charisma than a ninja... a ninja is about the least charismatic character concept I can imagine. A days work for a ninja should involve less than 10 syllables They are extreme specialists focusing on infiltration and assassination, often of martially trained targets. In social scenes they should be disciplined and terse. If we have to give them a mental stat, I argue wisdom as it relates to the following qualities: self discipline, cunning, and alertness. You have to be in some pretty specialized or outlandish fiction before the ninja starts being as hob-nobber or a party face.
Gunslingers (cowboys) don't really suggest any special relationship with or aversion to charisma. The concept produces a wide variety of personalities, some of them strong and roguishly charismatic, others terse and withdrawn, and still others are just unrefined bandits. None of this actually relates to the combat things we want our cowboys to do. Wisdom is a little bit of a stretch to, and I think we'd be better off making gunslingers straight up martial like fighters.
I think the cognitive dissonance is coming from the fact that cha should really have nothing to do with either class. I think a barbarian should have more charisma than a ninja... a ninja is about the least charismatic character concept I can imagine. A days work for a ninja should involve less than 10 syllables They are extreme specialists focusing on infiltration and assassination, often of martially trained targets. In social scenes they should be disciplined and terse.
Ninja spent a lot of time spying. A highly social activity. Getting close to targets also often involved a lot of social activity. It wasn't all sneaking around in the middle of the night. Being disciplined and terse, and raising suspicions while about it, would get you a bad case of "dead".
*edit* To whit:
In short, I can see Charisma being important for Ninja. The traditional link of force of personality and Charisma doesn't hurt the fit either. As for Gunslingers, "Grit" is about will and determination.
Again, my 2 cp, ymmv.
I find this crazy. Why is grit wis? It screams Cha to me...
It really depends on who they're modeling the Gunslinger off of.
It's Butch Cassidy vs. The Sundance Kid here, one is charismatic, the other is wise.
Neither answer is right. You can debate it forever, but the designers have to decide one way or another, or they could take a lot of extra time to develop a mechanism for choosing one, which may or may not be worth it.
But see, being a gunslinger does not REQUIRE a good wisdom, because by default they will always have at least 1 grit, minimum. and as a result they can always do the "at least one grit" abilities and can spend that grit AND have the option of gaining it back!
So you could have an 8 wis gunslinger and still have him be viable.
You may be mistaken on what charisma looks like. That dude is an annoying little s~~*. Being loud and outspoken absolutely does not make you charismatic. The main character from ninja assassin on the other hand is quiet, good looking, and can make you trust him (and lets face it that movie involved only fantasy ninjas), that's charisma.Wisdom gun slingers..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf3IkT2UyZ8Charisma Ninjas..
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/soul_eater/v00/c001.2/6.html><
No it didn't involve fantasy ninjas.. It involved a bunch of Elan like bards chanting "Ninja ninja ninja ninja assassssssssssin.." who just happen to get lucky because of their massive numbers..
The main character.. after being beaten to a pulp starts meditating and healing his own wounds..
Wholeness of Body (Su): At 7th level or higher, a monk
can heal his own wounds as a standard action. He can heal
a number of hit points of damage equal to his monk level
by using 2 points from his ki pool.
Being quite doesn't give you a high cha, nor does being just good looking. (Hags?) And trusting him? Thats like saying Freddy was able to make people trust him..
The main character had the personality of a bowl of fruit. Actually no that is an insult to bowls of fruit.
(I'm going to ignore the fact you called them all bards and then said they weren't charismatic) I never said you had to be quiet to be charismatic, but being loud isn't right either. Point is charisma means your likeable not loud and obnoxious. tearing apart my example doesn't make yours any more valid.
And IMO that movie was the very definition of fantasy ninja YMMV
(I'm going to ignore the fact you called them all bards and then said they weren't charismatic) I never said you had to be quiet to be charismatic, but being loud isn't right either. Point is charisma means your likeable not loud and obnoxious. tearing apart my example doesn't make yours any more valid.
And IMO that movie was the very definition of fantasy ninja YMMV
I said the main character was uncharasmatic.. and just because they are bards doesn't mean they would be either. They were just playing with some house rules where if all of them chanted they got some mad crazy bonuses.
Blackstar was always seeking attention, the way that high cha characters do.
Maybe it's how I interpret it. But just because someone is loud and obnoxious, that does not make them charismatic.
I hated Blackstar so much...
Having a high CHA means people listen to you when you talk. Not talk incessantly, and annoy the crap out of everyone.
Blackstar in fact has a low CHA, and thinks he deserves one higher, and thus makes up for it by bragging about himself, and generally being a terrible assassin.
Maybe it's how I interpret it. But just because someone is loud and obnoxious, that does not make them charismatic.
I hated Blackstar so much...
Having a high CHA means people listen to you when you talk. Not talk incessantly, and annoy the crap out of everyone.
Blackstar in fact has a low CHA, and thinks he deserves one higher, and thus makes up for it by bragging about himself, and generally being a terrible assassin.
One word..
Kenders.
And a few more words.. It began in the 12th century....
Ninja spent a lot of time spying. A highly social activity. Getting close to targets also often involved a lot of social activity. It wasn't all sneaking around in the middle of the night. Being disciplined and terse, and raising suspicions while about it, would get you a bad case of "dead".*edit* To whit:
In short, I can see Charisma being important for Ninja. The traditional link of force of personality and Charisma doesn't hurt the fit either. As for Gunslingers, "Grit" is about will and determination.
Again, my 2 cp, ymmv.
I can give you that the historical ninja may have actually filled the social-spy role. But I'm not understanding the 'force of personality' (AKA sorcerer charisma) thing at all, perhaps someone can explain how they see this relating to the ninja concept. Also, the rest of the games rules typically don't support the historical interpretation of a given character concept, but the fictional/legendary one. Most players who pick a pathfinder ninja aren't going to be history majors, but a lot of them play Tenchu and Shinobi and don't envision their ninja as a diplomancer. Nothing against historical accuracy, I just think that if you look at the fighter, the rogue, the ranger, the paladin, the monk, the cleric, the druid, the barbarian, etc. your historically accurate ninja finds himself is some pretty non-historical, legendary company. If you want a historically accurate Pathfinder game, you're going to be retooling all of the classes anyway.
It really depends on who they're modeling the Gunslinger off of.
It's Butch Cassidy vs. The Sundance Kid here, one is charismatic, the other is wise.Neither answer is right. You can debate it forever, but the designers have to decide one way or another, or they could take a lot of extra time to develop a mechanism for choosing one, which may or may not be worth it.
I disagree with the notion that a character class should be modeled off of a single instance of the archetype. For a character class to have much justification to exist at all (and cost money by showing up in a splat book), it should support a large number of character concepts that can be difficult to realize with the other existing classes. Otherwise you're introducing a whole bunch of new rules into the game(and thereby increasing the chance of flawed and broken rules) to accommodate a single character concept, and you're going to get sick of seeing 10 players play the same character. The best thing they can do with the gunslinger is make it broad enough to support Butch cassidy, The Sundance Kid, Spike off of Cowboy Beebop, and maybe even a gunslinging caribean pirate that's never seen a cow in his life.
Yeah it would be great if they made it so you could select cha or wis for grit/ki instead of sometime later making a crappy feat to allow you to change it.
Its one of the reasons our group is completely against weapon finesse being a feat and have instead made it part of the weapons. After all, if you are a weak frail man but extreamly quick in motion.. you'd think you'd be able to train with that method of combat rather then hulk smashing with daggers and rapiers.
One word..
Kenders.
And a few more words.. It began in the 12th century....
I have zero idea what you're talking about. What started in the 12th Century?
What does Kenders have to do with this?
One word..
Kenders.
And a few more words.. It began in the 12th century....
I have zero idea what you're talking about. What started in the 12th Century?
What does Kenders have to do with this?
Kenders have a tendancy to be loud mouth annoying character who just ramble on and on.. and they have an increase to charisma. Gnomes half a trait that does similar, granting them initiative.
But thats not it. Black star actually has huge amounts of charasima. Charasima doesn't mean that people automatically love you because you gaze fondly in their general direction. Charasima is personality. Charasima is drive. This is the difference between blackstar and say.. Chrono. Chrono has no charisma, very little drive.
And my legend started in the 12th ceentury...
loud quiet or a lump of flesh in the corner, if it has a CHA of 26 people will like having him/her/it around.
sitting quietly is a personality, and with a high CHA score it is an effective one. So yes it does mean people love you just cause you gaze in their general direction. And drive is more WIS the mental fortitude to keep going.
loud quiet or a lump of flesh in the corner, if it has a CHA of 26 people will like having him/her/it around.
sitting quietly is a personality, and with a high CHA score it is an effective one. So yes it does mean people love you just cause you gaze in their general direction. And drive is more WIS the mental fortitude to keep going.
No it does not. first you have to realize that cha is like 40 things rolled into one stat.
For example its passion..
Ifrits are passionate and quick, but also impetuous and destructive.
Passion is an intense emotion compelling feeling, enthusiasm, or desire for something.
Notice they get bonuses to cha, and penalties to wis.
By ifrits, Cha is passion and action. Wisdom is calm careful planning.Personally I wouldn't want a mothman (18 cha) gazing in my direction.
I can give you that the historical ninja may have actually filled the social-spy role. But I'm not understanding the 'force of personality' (AKA sorcerer charisma) thing at all, perhaps someone can explain how they see this relating to the ninja concept. Also, the rest of the games rules typically don't support the historical interpretation of a given character concept, but the fictional/legendary one. Most players who pick a pathfinder ninja aren't going to be history majors, but a lot of them play Tenchu and Shinobi and don't envision their ninja as a diplomancer. Nothing against historical accuracy, I just think that if you look at the fighter, the rogue, the ranger, the paladin, the monk, the cleric, the druid, the barbarian, etc. your historically accurate ninja finds himself is some pretty non-historical, legendary company. If you want a historically accurate Pathfinder game, you're going to be retooling all of the classes anyway.
Ki is energy, energy could = force of personality. The link between the two (Charisma and energy -- sorcery for example) is part of the (re)interpretation of Charisma in 3.0. Ninja do plenty of spying in literature and fantasy as well as history. The "they just sneak around at night" bit is a bit one sided don't you think? And even the sneaking has to be based on solid intelligence (data not "Intelligence" the characteristic) to be succesful. What I want is a fantasy Ninja that supports the full range of activity the class should be involved in as well as various interpretations of the class (a point you made about the gunslinger...).
Most people are sheep. I'm sorry to say that, but it's true.Wow, just wow.
I posted a thread in the Ninja section asking why Cha over Wis for ki. I was lambasted by the moral majority on these forums for it. Now, when someone ask why Wis over Cha for grit people are talking about how non-optimal it is.
I swear to Gawd it's like watching lemmings go over a cliff. You just have to follow the piper and attack anyone who questions it.
Ki should be Wisdom because that fits what ki, classically and literarily is. Grit should be Cha because that's where your swagger and confidence comes from.
Feel free to argue the point, but I care more about flavor and style than mechanics. If I wanted optimal characters for an optimal game and didn't care about things making sense then I'd play 4th edition.
Sorry, but if you look up a definition of "grit" you'll notice that, once you get past bits af sand, it has nothing to do with "swagger and confidence". It's about will and determination. Clasically in D&D that would be Wisdom. Swagger and confidence are a large part of the gunslinger image / mythos but it's not "grit".
As for Ki / Charisma, you have more of a point there. The link between Ki / energy and Charisma goes back to the Sorceror and 3.0, imo of course, and a good arguement could be made for either Wisdom of Charisma (although I'm satisfied with Charisma as a design choice).
Some people may object to any difference of opinion from the designers, but don't mistake a well reasoned argument for a metaphorical pack of lemmings or sheep.