Has anyone played around with the Magus and Duelist PrC ?
Have put a basic build through Herolab and it seems quite possible to be hitting ~60 AC with 4 base iterative attacks anit half bad.
Seems that you gain +10AC and +10dmg more BAB d10 plus some useful melee abilities.
and end up losing 5th and 6th level spells and your ability to crack SR is hindered significantly at high levels
Progression would be something like 8-10Magus then 10 Duelist
and assumes you end up with INT30.
I guess you could do something similar with Eldrich Knight but the duelist synergy with the INT to AC and single weapon looks very attractive.
Anyone played around with this ?
30 int??
30 int wouldn't be a bad deal on this build -- you get extra bonus slots (which you'll need due to your lack of normal slots) -- it increases your arcane pool and your AC plus more skill points.
You aren't likely to throw too many spells that allow a save throw so on that side it's a non-issue.
I would suggest scimitar and the dervish dance feat. The build is solid, if not "uber OMG" optimized and would work fine.
30 int??
yeah 30 int isn't difficult
start with 19 + 5 from levelling +6 from headband of INT = 30
yeah I was thinking scimitar or rapier since i think the duelist gets some benefits specifically with the rapier
I went with scimitar with dervish dance specifically because it adds your dex to damage instead of strength and makes the scimitar finessable when used one handed with nothing in your off hand.
Since you are playing a singleton sort anyways (since magus just about forces this, as does the duelist class) you reduce your "must have" stats to Dex, Con, and Int instead of Dex, Con, Int, and Str.
The AC is nice, but Mirror Image + Displacement makes AC much less valuable. You can't have this combo up all the time, but you usually can when it matters. The AC is nice, but not great.
Until UM comes out with alternate Magus favored class options, it's all going to HP, so the d10 HD is a wash.
The Bab is nice, and the 4th itterative attack is probably the best reason to multi-class with a Magus.
Also, Duelist is pretty much limited to rapier, so no Dervish Dance. At least not if you want to use precise strike.
Honestly, I'd rather have the spells. If I was going to dip for the 4th attack, I'd dip EK 4 for Gtr Wep Spec and still keep my caster level high.
The AC is nice, but Mirror Image + Displacement makes AC much less valuable. You can't have this combo up all the time, but you usually can when it matters. The AC is nice, but not great.
Until UM comes out with alternate Magus favored class options, it's all going to HP, so the d10 HD is a wash.
The Bab is nice, and the 4th itterative attack is probably the best reason to multi-class with a Magus.
Also, Duelist is pretty much limited to rapier, so no Dervish Dance. At least not if you want to use precise strike.
Honestly, I'd rather have the spells. If I was going to dip for the 4th attack, I'd dip EK 4 for Gtr Wep Spec and still keep my caster level high.
You should read Dervish dance as it specifically allows the duelist to use it.
AC is never a wash.
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Dervish Dance does allow the Scimitar to be used for Duelist.
I'm just not sure I understand what this PC does. You lack the Arcana and spells to have the kind of DPR that a full Magus could output. Are you some kind of tank? Won't the group already need something of the same sort for the first 10+ levels where you aren't anything like a tank?
The build would be a multi-tasker.
At lower levels it's simply a scimitar swinging magus. After level 10 it will still have fourth level spells but would start taking levels in duelist.
At this point it would start to move into the front liner category.
With the combination of good AC and defensive spells in addition to its ability to increase the magic on it's weapon and the bonus damage from duelist it would be a first striker assault sort.
The duelist levels will help to shore up the Reflex save as well.
I went with scimitar with dervish dance specifically because it adds your dex to damage instead of strength and makes the scimitar finessable when used one handed with nothing in your off hand.
Since you are playing a singleton sort anyways (since magus just about forces this, as does the duelist class) you reduce your "must have" stats to Dex, Con, and Int instead of Dex, Con, Int, and Str.
ya but the duelist needs a one hand piercing weapon
Dervish Dance:
You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability).
All the same, both weapons have the same damage and crit range. So what's the advantage?
Dex to damage with the scimitar and Dervish Dance.
Dex to damage with the scimitar and Dervish Dance.
That just seems broken.
Well, doing so costs a feat and 2 skill points. Also, character can't use weapon or shield in other hand. And it only works on the scimitar. I'd also question whether "learning" the feat should be as easy as just choosing it, but that's really a roleplaying/fluff obstacle that might not apply to all campaigns.
I've been using it on a Magus build, and so far there haven't been any balance problems, but YMMV.
Well, doing so costs a feat and 2 skill points. Also, character can't use weapon or shield in other hand. And it only works on the scimitar. I'd also question whether "learning" the feat should be as easy as just choosing it, but that's really a roleplaying/fluff obstacle that might not apply to all campaigns.
I've been using it on a Magus build, and so far there haven't been any balance problems, but YMMV.
The problem as I see it is that what seems to be the vast majority of magus builds use the Dervish Dance feat. I understand mechanically that it ii usually a good option, I just wish there were a better choice. Maybe archetypes will help.
The problem as I see it is that what seems to be the vast majority of magus builds use the Dervish Dance feat. I understand mechanically that it ii usually a good option, I just wish there were a better choice. Maybe archetypes will help.
Meh, my current Magus is strength based -- I don't have quite the AC I would like (21 before spells) but I have the most HP in the group at level 10.
I swing hard and cast harder -- we used 20 point buy and I'm playing a tiefling -- I got extra lucky on my fiendish heritage rolls and got the +2 Int bonus roll.
Starting Stats were: Str 16, Dex 14 Con 14 Int 18, Wis 8 Cha 8
I'm currently (at level 10 with equipment on):
Str 20 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 22 Wis 8 Cha 8
30 int??yeah 30 int isn't difficult
start with 19 + 5 from levelling +6 from headband of INT = 30
yeah I was thinking scimitar or rapier since i think the duelist gets some benefits specifically with the rapier
A 17 isn't difficult? Even with epic purchase, it's a big deal, especially since the character will need a high dex and decent con, too.
where is the dervish dance feat again?
A 17 isn't difficult? Even with epic purchase, it's a big deal, especially since the character will need a high dex and decent con, too.
"Isn't difficult" and "very feasible" aren't completely opposite.
After all this guy is looking at reducing the stats he needs substantially.
For a 20 point buy I could see:
Str 13 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 9 Cha 7
Before racial adjustments that bring the dex and int up to 16 and 18 respectively. That's not quite a 19 to start with, but close enough if you manage a single wish somewhere along the way.
I like str 13 for power attack which would be more useful than piranha strike (which doesn't work with the scimitar anyways) and general encumbrance.
where is the dervish dance feat again?
"Qadira, Gateway to the East"
It's also on the Nethys site, and, I assume, the PRD.
You should read Dervish dance as it specifically allows the duelist to use it.
Ah. I've only seen it a couple of times. I must have forgotten about that allowance. I was hung up on the whole piercing weapon thing. (A limitation which I hate)
AC is never a wash.
I never said it was. A Magus just has most of the superior defensive options that a Wizard enjoys. To a Magus, AC, while important, isn't nearly as important as it is to a Fighter (or a Duelist) who lacks said defensive options.
I never said it was. A Magus just has most of the superior defensive options that a Wizard enjoys. To a Magus, AC, while important, isn't nearly as important as it is to a Fighter (or a Duelist) who lacks said defensive options.
I would argue to the contrary -- the more spells the magus has to employ regularly for defense the less he has for offense -- and even then the few defensive spells he has (and in truth they are few) are very susceptible to specific, common, countermeasures -- especially at later levels.
So he can either focus on having an AC that puts him outside of harm's way on a regular basis and augment that when needed, or he can regularly use specific spells that at later level are easily ignored to try and defend himself.
The AC is constant and offers significant ease of increase compared to other means of defense.
Now if he was a wizard I would agree that he probably should worry less about AC as the likelihood of being in a position to be hit would be significantly less.
Before someone brings up the spells again I would point out that this build will get through 2/3 of its spell levels, and do so right at a time when those spells are highly likely to work -- after level 10 the spell level gap starts to open too wide for the magus to regularly rely on blasting spell with AOE or save throw effects -- most of what he's going to want to use are specific target effects such as rays (with no saves, and hopefully little SR) touch attacks, and buffs -- which are at their best on the lower level spell slots. Many of these spells cap at or around level 10 meaning that leaving at that point isn't as harmful as it could be.
Now he might still want to play an elf specifically (for the SR bonus) and take spell penetration and greater spell penetration, as well as magical knack to give himself the best chance with those touch spells of landing. An orange ioun stone would be a good investment too.
With those feats, being an elf, the trait and the ioun stone he's looking at a +9 on his caster level for spell penetration checks -- which puts him up to +19 for most of them... which should be enough for most the time.
For arcana I would recommend accuracy, familiar, and I'm not sure what else.
where is the dervish dance feat again?"Qadira, Gateway to the East"
It's also on the Nethys site, and, I assume, the PRD.
Not the PRD. Paizo doesn't include all their material in there.
The feat is also in the Inner Sea World Guide, though.
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Not the PRD. Paizo doesn't include all their material in there.
The feat is also in the Inner Sea World Guide, though.
It is on d20PFSRD, though. Here.
Abe, while you have a workable build there, I'm not really buying into it. You don't have the investment into physical stats that will make your Magus decent with his Scimitar and you're going to be thin on feats being an Elf which means you're going to have a rough time casting defensively for a while.
Add to that you're getting out of the class before some good Arcana and Improved Pool Spell, plus robbing yourself of Pool points.
All for Duelist? Duelist?
I would like to uselessly point out that I am morally opposed to Dexterity for damage under any circumstances. AC, Reflex, and attack rolls is more than enough for any stat. Make it Charisma. Make it Intelligence. Hell, make it Constitution if you have to, but don't pile anything else on top of Dexterity.
It is on d20PFSRD, though. Here.
Abe, while you have a workable build there, I'm not really buying into it. You don't have the investment into physical stats that will make your Magus decent with his Scimitar and you're going to be thin on feats being an Elf which means you're going to have a rough time casting defensively for a while.
Add to that you're getting out of the class before some good Arcana and Improved Pool Spell, plus robbing yourself of Pool points.
All for Duelist? Duelist?
Hey I don't hold it against you -- I do understand where you are coming from with your comment. I'll tell you what -- I think we can agree that until level 10 it's pretty much a standard Magus build, right?
So what I'll do is a level 15 and level 20 build of the duelist magus and post it up later on. I won't say that it will completely change your religion, but I think you'll see that it is a solid competent build at least.
Now I would be the first to admit that tiefling would really work better -- but I'll stick to elf since those are generally much more accepted in play.
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I would like to uselessly point out that I am morally opposed to Dexterity for damage under any circumstances. AC, Reflex, and attack rolls is more than enough for any stat. Make it Charisma. Make it Intelligence. Hell, make it Constitution if you have to, but don't pile anything else on top of Dexterity.
Even when you consider the costs? It takes one feat just to use it to hit. Another and two skill points in a useless skill (unless you're a Bard) to add damage. And you can never use the weapon two handed.
The fact of the matter is that melee classes that can only use light armor get screwed in the damage department if they the focus enough on Dex to be survivable and get screwed in the AC department if they focus enough on Str to rock some damage.
Also, I don't think that adding Con to damage instead of Dex is somehow magically better. Con gets you more HP and a better Fort save. HP is in some ways better than AC since more things bypass AC or your Dex bonus to AC than your HP.