Swap exploding dice for touch. Use old ammo costs and range. New misfire is ok (as long as gunslingers get reductions)
That's pretty much where I'm at too. I do not mind the new rules. They are not overpowered, or game breaking for me. However I like the flavor of the exploding dice for firearms more than I like the touch ac mechanic. Now I do like the new scatter property and that will probably stay in.
I'm actually finishing testing out a scattering arrow enhancement -- it's +4 and you can hit everything in 10 feet of where you place the shot.
Swap exploding dice for touch. Use old ammo costs and range. New misfire is ok (as long as gunslingers get reductions)Well done Sir, well done... I'd even feel comfortable with a 18-20/x4 crit range instead of exploding dice or Touch AC.
Exploding dice instead of touch AC seems a fair trade to me. I don't particularly have a problem with touch AC firearms mechanics-wise, though the realism part of my brain twitches a bit at a musket ball plowing through absolutely everything at close range, but if I had players who did I don't think I'd have a problem swapping out exploding dice for touch attacks and seeing how that worked for a couple sessions.
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Exploding dice instead of touch AC seems a fair trade to me. I don't particularly have a problem with touch AC firearms mechanics-wise, though the realism part of my brain twitches a bit at a musket ball plowing through absolutely everything at close range, but if I had players who did I don't think I'd have a problem swapping out exploding dice for touch attacks and seeing how that worked for a couple sessions.Swap exploding dice for touch. Use old ammo costs and range. New misfire is ok (as long as gunslingers get reductions)Well done Sir, well done... I'd even feel comfortable with a 18-20/x4 crit range instead of exploding dice or Touch AC.
The thing is...exploding dice are fun.
When they come up, everyone around the table gets excited about how many times it will double up again. It isn't particularly overpowering, it doesn't require calculating who is attacking what AC from what distance...
It's just a "Sweet! Roll again!" moment that enhances the game in a simple way.
As a neutral observer, I would like to nominate this thread for the Quickest Degradation Into Flame since "I am Sorry Heathansson!!!"
Except without the scary dog pictures.
EDIT: I love exploding dice. Just saying. Did the thread calm down after the first twenty posts?
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As a neutral observer, I would like to nominate this thread for the Quickest Degradation Into Flame since "I am Sorry Heathansson!!!"
Except without the scary dog pictures.
EDIT: I love exploding dice. Just saying. Did the thread calm down after the first twenty posts?
Actually, we now all seem to suddenly agree. Now if only we can get the Devs to come around :)
The thing is...exploding dice are fun.
When they come up, everyone around the table gets excited about how many times it will double up again. It isn't particularly overpowering, it doesn't require calculating who is attacking what AC from what distance...
It's just a "Sweet! Roll again!" moment that enhances the game in a simple way.
Yeah till a 1st level commonor gets lucky and kills your 10th level character with exploding dice. Than it stops being fun for most people.
I play a game that uses exploding dice(L5R) while it is fun it is a lot more leathal than touch AC attacks.
I am ok with either really...it s a non-issue for me.
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Swap exploding dice for touch. Use old ammo costs and range. New misfire is ok (as long as gunslingers get reductions)That's pretty much where I'm at too. I do not mind the new rules. They are not overpowered, or game breaking for me. However I like the flavor of the exploding dice for firearms more than I like the touch ac mechanic. Now I do like the new scatter property and that will probably stay in.
I'm actually finishing testing out a scattering arrow enhancement -- it's +4 and you can hit everything in 10 feet of where you place the shot.
I like this property too and think it adds an interesting new element.
Like I said in the other thread, taking a ranger type approach with firearm mastery type chains would be a great way to go.
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The thing is...exploding dice are fun.
When they come up, everyone around the table gets excited about how many times it will double up again. It isn't particularly overpowering, it doesn't require calculating who is attacking what AC from what distance...
It's just a "Sweet! Roll again!" moment that enhances the game in a simple way.
Yeah till a 1st level commonor gets lucky and kills your 10th level character with exploding dice. Than it stops being fun for most people.
I play a game that uses exploding dice(L5R) while it is fun it is a lot more leathal than touch AC attacks.
I am ok with either really...it s a non-issue for me.
1. Odd are ridiculously low that will happen, so when it does happen I have no issue with it personally.
Remember you are only re-rolling the damage dice from the firearm itself, not any bonuses. How many times do you have to roll the highest damage in a row to take out a 10th level character?
2. If you think that is an issue, it isn't hard to cap it. Say a max re-roll equal to your level or something.
The thing is...exploding dice are fun.
When they come up, everyone around the table gets excited about how many times it will double up again. It isn't particularly overpowering, it doesn't require calculating who is attacking what AC from what distance...
It's just a "Sweet! Roll again!" moment that enhances the game in a simple way.
Yeah till a 1st level commonor gets lucky and kills your 10th level character with exploding dice. Than it stops being fun for most people.
I play a game that uses exploding dice(L5R) while it is fun it is a lot more leathal than touch AC attacks.
I am ok with either really...it s a non-issue for me.
1. Odd are ridiculously low that will happen, so when it does happen I have no issue with it personally.
Remember you are only re-rolling the damage dice from the firearm itself, not any bonuses. How many times do you have to roll the highest damage in a row to take out a 10th level character?
2. If you think that is an issue, it isn't hard to cap it. Say a max re-roll equal to your level or something.
Just pointing it out...I don't mind either way...but introducing exploding dice mechanics can have a much bigger impact than Touch AC attacks(which are already in the game)...than reintroducing exploding dice which...was sorta in on the fringes.
What exactly is exploding dice rule again? If you roll the highest number on the dice roll, you keep rolling and adding, until you stop rolling the highest number?
A la, a Musket. Roll a d12, gain 12. Roll another d12, get 10. Total Damage = 22. Right?
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What exactly is exploding dice rule again? If you roll the highest number on the dice roll, you keep rolling and adding, until you stop rolling the highest number?
A la, a Musket. Roll a d12, gain 12. Roll another d12, get 10. Total Damage = 22. Right?
Yup. Roll a 12 the 2nd time you can roll again.
The higher damage the gun is normally, the less likely it will "explode" (1 in 12 vs 1 in 8) and you can end up with a lot of damage if you are very, very lucky.
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What exactly is exploding dice rule again? If you roll the highest number on the dice roll, you keep rolling and adding, until you stop rolling the highest number?
A la, a Musket. Roll a d12, gain 12. Roll another d12, get 10. Total Damage = 22. Right?
Yup. Roll a 12 the 2nd time you can roll again.
The higher damage the gun is normally, the less likely it will "explode" (1 in 12 vs 1 in 8) and you can end up with a lot of damage if you are very, very lucky.
http://eric22222.wordpress.com/2009/03/22/a-mathematical-analysis-of-explod ing-dice/
What exactly is exploding dice rule again? If you roll the highest number on the dice roll, you keep rolling and adding, until you stop rolling the highest number?
A la, a Musket. Roll a d12, gain 12. Roll another d12, get 10. Total Damage = 22. Right?
Yup. Roll a 12 the 2nd time you can roll again.
The higher damage the gun is normally, the less likely it will "explode" (1 in 12 vs 1 in 8) and you can end up with a lot of damage if you are very, very lucky.
Oh man. That sounds outright devastating with Crits.
Instead of going from 12 x 4, it'd be 22 x 4? Ugh. **cringes** My God. I now need to ask my DM if this is okay. I would GLADLY trade that for Touch AC. [Esp. since my DM house-ruled that away regardless!]
Actually Exploding Dice were really nasty with the old scattergun too. 3d6 at short range -- and then you use vital strike on top of it.
Our Gnome Alchemist just about drop so very nasty things with a single shot that way...
Of course he almost blows himself up every couple of shots too...
He once had a misfire... started using the other barrel, which also misfired, spent the time in combat to clear the misfires (he rolled jams both times) then fires again -- for another misfire (again a jam). He didn't bother with the other barrel at that point and started throwing bombs instead.
Two questions about these exploding dice.
1) Why a d10 weapon should be more likely to take another dice of damage than a d12 weapon?
2) what happens whan the wielder of the weapon is enlarged , or the weapon damage is increased somewhat with similar effects? how do you manage a 3d6 eploding dice? Each "6" is rerolled?
Two questions about these exploding dice.
...
2) what happens whan the wielder of the weapon is enlarged , or the weapon damage is increased somewhat with similar effects? how do you manage a 3d6 eploding dice? Each "6" is rerolled?
Just like a 12 on a d12 would result in an extra damage die, you could one of 2 ways
1) for each "6" (max die damage) you roll on any of the individual d6s of a 3d6 roll, reroll that individual d6, and keep rerolling for each consecutive "6"
OR
2) reroll all 3d6 ONLY if you roll max damage (ei. 18 total on a 3d6).
I would go with the latter, since thats the way it works with single die open-ended damage. Roll a "12" on a d12 (max damage), reroll the d12, etc. Roll "18" on 3d6 (max damage) reroll all 3d6. It is an single attack afterall.
Just like a 12 on a d12 would result in an extra damage die, you could one of 2 ways.
1) for each "6" (max die damage) you roll on any of the individual d6s of a 3d6 roll, reroll that individual d6, and keep rerolling for each consecutive "6"
OR
2) reroll all 3d6 ONLY if you roll max damage (ei. 18 total on a 3d6).
I would go with the latter, since thats the way it works with single die open-ended damage. Roll a "12" on a d12 (max damage), reroll the d12, etc. Roll "18" on 3d6 (max damage) reroll all 3d6. It is an single attack afterall.
I don't really agree, because it really makes exploding dice near useless for scatterguns. But then again, I used to play a fighter with one, so I'm a little biased. :P
Actually Exploding Dice were really nasty with the old scattergun too. 3d6 at short range -- and then you use vital strike on top of it.
Our Gnome Alchemist just about drop so very nasty things with a single shot that way...
Of course he almost blows himself up every couple of shots too...
He once had a misfire... started using the other barrel, which also misfired, spent the time in combat to clear the misfires (he rolled jams both times) then fires again -- for another misfire (again a jam). He didn't bother with the other barrel at that point and started throwing bombs instead.
Yeah, that's the issue with exploding dice, when you run into guns that deal less damage, or odd damage like 3d6 for the scattergun, the math is odd. For the scattergun example, there's a 50% chance for that 3d6 firearm to have at least 1 die explode, which can be really lethal. And when you increase the size of a 1d10 weapon it goes to 2d6 right? So a large firearm that explodes 1/10 times for a medium character will explode 1/3 rounds for a large character.
The other way of doing it, requiring all the dice to come up maximum, means that the d10 to 2d6 goes from a 1/10 chance to a 1/36 chance(1/216 for a 3d6), which goes too far the other way in my opinion.
Still, I don't think this would take too long to smooth out in game with a bit of trial and error, and exploding dice, like rolling critical confirmations, are fun to do.
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Two questions about these exploding dice.
...
2) what happens whan the wielder of the weapon is enlarged , or the weapon damage is increased somewhat with similar effects? how do you manage a 3d6 eploding dice? Each "6" is rerolled?Just like a 12 on a d12 would result in an extra damage die, you could one of 2 ways
1) for each "6" (max die damage) you roll on any of the individual d6s of a 3d6 roll, reroll that individual d6, and keep rerolling for each consecutive "6"
OR
2) reroll all 3d6 ONLY if you roll max damage (ei. 18 total on a 3d6).
I would go with the latter, since thats the way it works with single die open-ended damage. Roll a "12" on a d12 (max damage), reroll the d12, etc. Roll "18" on 3d6 (max damage) reroll all 3d6. It is an single attack afterall.
I played it the first way, but the 2nd way is fine with me as well.
Neither is really overpowered, as each d6 which would normally do 3.5 average now does 4.2 (according to the site above) balanced against a misfire chance.
Fine now problem 3)
Weapon 1 has d10 damage. Weapon 2 has d12 damage.
So, Weapon 1 has greater chance to "explode" the dice. BUT...
A greater version of weapon 1 is 2d8 (IIRC). By method 1, now has less chance. And it get worse.
If i take a greater version of weapon 2 (3d6), with method 2, now weapon 2 si more likely to have exploding dice.
WHY? And moreover, since you have to choose one method, it stops to make sense.
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Fine now problem 3)
Weapon 1 has d10 damage. Weapon 2 has d12 damage.
So, Weapon 1 has greater chance to "explode" the dice. BUT...
A greater version of weapon 1 is 2d8 (IIRC). By method 1, now has less chance. And it get worse.
If i take a greater version of weapon 2 (3d6), with method 2, now weapon 2 si more likely to have exploding dice.
WHY? And moreover, since you have to choose one method, it stops to make sense.
Yes the 1d10 is more likely to "explode" than the 1d12
But the 1d12 does more damage when it explodes than the 1d10.
On the 2d8 it is more likely to have one of the dice explode, but each explosion does less potential damage.
See the link above about the math behind it.
See the link above about the math behind it.
It does not work.
It does not work.
See the link above about the math behind it.The link or the math?
If the link google exploding dice, and it is on the first page. I just copied and pasted the link after I read the article.
The link. Now I've looked at it (at least, at the 1st google result). but essentially is
"For any N-sided die numbered 1 to N with all sides equally likely, the exploding modifier will increase the die’s expected value by a factor of N/(N-1) "
and what's essentially i said above. Why should a pistol have this effect more likely than a musket? I wonder if exploding dice are good for systems with a single type of die only..
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It does not work.
See the link above about the math behind it.The link or the math?
If the link google exploding dice, and it is on the first page. I just copied and pasted the link after I read the article.
The link. Now I've looked at it (at least, at the 1st google result). but essentially is
"For any N-sided die numbered 1 to N with all sides equally likely, the exploding modifier will increase the die’s expected value by a factor of N/(N-1) "
and what's essentially i said above. Why should a pistol have this effect more likely than a musket? I wonder if exploding dice are good for systems with a single type of die only..
Rhe higher dc still does more damage.
As to why more often with a pistol that a musket, call it accuracy of the pistol given the range.
Keep in mind this is instead of touch, which makes almost not logical sense given the types of firearms we are discussing.
Rhe higher dc still does more damage.
As to why more often with a pistol that a musket, call it accuracy of the pistol given the range.
Keep in mind this is instead of touch, which makes almost not logical sense given the types of firearms we are discussing.
You can balance misfires with touch. i doubt exploding dice can balance misfires.
If you don't like the touch for balance reasons, I can see but for realism, consider firearms as special alchemical weapons. The projectile is not necessarily similar to the real life one.
maybe fullplate and dragon scales should require standard hit instead of touch - the first because "bulletproof" word and the second because dragons are the fantasy mary sue.
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Rhe higher dc still does more damage.
As to why more often with a pistol that a musket, call it accuracy of the pistol given the range.
Keep in mind this is instead of touch, which makes almost not logical sense given the types of firearms we are discussing.
You can balance misfires with touch. i doubt exploding dice can balance misfires.
If you don't like the touch for balance reasons, I can see but for realism, consider firearms as special alchemical weapons. The projectile is not necessarily similar to the real life one.
maybe fullplate and dragon scales should require standard hit instead of touch - the first because "bulletproof" word and the second because dragons are the fantasy mary sue.
If you go with exploding dice rather than touch. Feats to reduce misfire chance would not be problematic.
Making firearms touch attacks basically creates an exception mechanic that forces misfire and ammunition costs to be high in an effort to counter a basically +4 weapon quality.
Who would object to misfire chance being mitigated by feats if it was exploding rather than touch as the "special" bonus?
Going in that direction gives you something new and fun without creating a mechanical trap that every new feature added to weapons will have to be weighed against.
IMHO you are right, but a clunky mechanic like exploding dice is not the answer. You could obtain a 10 with a pistol and then reroll for a 1? Additional time added to the turn, for...?
Maybe I'm biased because I DM a lot of players. And the mechanic per se csn be fun.
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IMHO you are right, but a clunky mechanic like exploding dice is not the answer. You could obtain a 10 with a pistol and then reroll for a 1? Additional time added to the turn, for...?
Maybe I'm biased because I DM a lot of players. And the mechanic per se csn be fun.
In my experience, exploding dice play really quick, as you are just re-rolling the top dice and immediately doing the addition. Much, much faster than crits or even sneak attacks.
Plus, it doesn't happen that much, and when it does it's the kind of thing everyone at the table kind of get into, kind of like watching gambling.
If does not happen that much, I'm not sure is suitable for balance touch attacks removal.
Just like a 12 on a d12 would result in an extra damage die, you could one of 2 ways
1) for each "6" (max die damage) you roll on any of the individual d6s of a 3d6 roll, reroll that individual d6, and keep rerolling for each consecutive "6"
OR
2) reroll all 3d6 ONLY if you roll max damage (ei. 18 total on a 3d6).
I would go with the latter, since thats the way it works with single die open-ended damage. Roll a "12" on a d12 (max damage), reroll the d12, etc. Roll "18" on 3d6 (max damage) reroll all 3d6. It is an single attack afterall.
yea but the 2nd option wouldnt even be fair to have as an exploding dice rule, seeing a chance for say the 1d12, even as far back as 2nd edition dnd with their firearms had exploding dice, roll max? roll again.
you have a 1-12 shot every time. not amazing odds, but it could happen.you throw 2 dice in there? noo you toss in 3! on a 3d6 role you have what, a 1-216 shot?(*does math*) yea. making it something that might not even happen in an entire campaign with that character. I just don't see the reason in having exploding dice if its never going to come up.
~2 cents.
If does not happen that much, I'm not sure is suitable for balance touch attacks removal.Which is why you also take the ammo cost down to old levels, and allow misfire chance to be lowered with a feat.
That would be more balanced than touch attacks.
I can agree on ammo, but how many feat the gunslinger needs to be functional?
AND @Sean: I agree completely.
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Un,QUOTE="Kaiyanwang"]
If does not happen that much, I'm not sure is suitable for balance touch attacks removal.Which is why you also take the ammo cost down to old levels, and allow misfire chance to be lowered with a feat.
That would be more balanced than touch attacks.
I can agree on ammo, but how many feat the gunslinger needs to be functional?
AND @Sean: I agree completely.
None, as the gunslinger should get reduced misfire as a class skill.
There are two issues. Guns with the gunslinger and guns in general.
The problem is the touch AC is such a bonus that you have to pack it with nerfs and make exception or exclusions to make it balanced.
2xploding dice are cool features. Not in any way game breaking, but fun flavor and a different option.
If you gave gunslingers touch ac equal to 1 round per level per day, that would be fine because it would only be a gunslinger thing.
When you give it to everyone, you risk openning a ton of loopholes and crossovers of abilities.xploding dice have not such danger. They are occassionally extra damage, averaging a little less than an increase in the dice.
fun but not a risk of messing anything else up.