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Like a sharpshooter ranger or rogue with a rifle, perhaps?
I know in the 1st playtest, the guns were pitiful, and horrendously overpriced. Now they have some cheaper prices; but I'm wondering - does the damage output in a round make it worth using?
My initial thoughts looking over playtest two say:
"Maybe in an E6 game - but not once high BAB means multiple attacks."
What I'd like to see is:
1. "Gunslinger is a balanced class, and doesn't rely on over-or underpowered weapons to make it work."
2. "Guns are a balanced weapon choice. If you give a gun to a character who is proficient with it, they'll be effective."
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Like a sharpshooter ranger or rogue with a rifle, perhaps?
I know in the 1st playtest, the guns were pitiful, and horrendously overpriced. Now they have some cheaper prices; but I'm wondering - does the damage output in a round make it worth using?
My initial thoughts looking over playtest two say:
"Maybe in an E6 game - but not once high BAB means multiple attacks."What I'd like to see is:
1. "Gunslinger is a balanced class, and doesn't rely on over-or underpowered weapons to make it work."
2. "Guns are a balanced weapon choice. If you give a gun to a character who is proficient with it, they'll be effective."
I completely disagree with you on overpriced.
It is a weapon that hits as a touch attack. To add a similar feature to a normal weapon is a +4 enhancement.
1st levels should not have price-access to guns, if guns can hit on touch attacks.
Like a sharpshooter ranger or rogue with a rifle, perhaps?
I know in the 1st playtest, the guns were pitiful, and horrendously overpriced. Now they have some cheaper prices; but I'm wondering - does the damage output in a round make it worth using?
My initial thoughts looking over playtest two say:
"Maybe in an E6 game - but not once high BAB means multiple attacks."What I'd like to see is:
1. "Gunslinger is a balanced class, and doesn't rely on over-or underpowered weapons to make it work."
2. "Guns are a balanced weapon choice. If you give a gun to a character who is proficient with it, they'll be effective."I completely disagree with you on overpriced.
It is a weapon that hits as a touch attack. To add a similar feature to a normal weapon is a +4 enhancement.
1st levels should not have price-access to guns, if guns can hit on touch attacks.
your missing the fact that at low levels touch AC is amazing close to normal AC and at most they are getting a range of +2 to attack and +5 to attack at first level, which can easily be accomplished by a melee fighter with a high strength.
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your missing the fact that at low levels touch AC is amazing close to normal AC and at most they are getting a range of +2 to attack and +5 to attack at first level, which can easily be accomplished by a melee fighter with a high strength.Like a sharpshooter ranger or rogue with a rifle, perhaps?
I know in the 1st playtest, the guns were pitiful, and horrendously overpriced. Now they have some cheaper prices; but I'm wondering - does the damage output in a round make it worth using?
My initial thoughts looking over playtest two say:
"Maybe in an E6 game - but not once high BAB means multiple attacks."What I'd like to see is:
1. "Gunslinger is a balanced class, and doesn't rely on over-or underpowered weapons to make it work."
2. "Guns are a balanced weapon choice. If you give a gun to a character who is proficient with it, they'll be effective."I completely disagree with you on overpriced.
It is a weapon that hits as a touch attack. To add a similar feature to a normal weapon is a +4 enhancement.
1st levels should not have price-access to guns, if guns can hit on touch attacks.
But they aren't the same. Even a 2 point difference is huge at low levels, hence the cost of magic weapons.
A melee fighter with high strength has high strength because they put point in strength and therefore didn't put points elsewhere.
You give the melee fighter with high strength a ranged weapon that ignores touch they can hit well with both.
and you dont think a gunslinger has points he has to put in places to be effective?
Noble birth/rich parents trait and crafting it yourself is about the only way to afford it at 1st level.
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Touch Attack may normally count as a +4;
However, I've never seen anyone even WANT to do that with a crossbow. It really sucks to lose your iterative attacks at higher levels. It's great that they hit so often at close range; but you aren't getting STR (Or anything else) to damage, and you're not getting iterative attacks.
And I can't see a way to ever use enchanted guns without it just being a waste of money.
To get a full attack, you need to use quickdraw + (1 gun per iterative attack)*number of rounds you plan on lasting. Then you need some people to follow you around and reload your guns while you shoot. Maybe several well trained monkeys or something.
It's around the same utility as a brilliant energy crossbow. And I've never seen anyone even consider buying one of those.
Of course, last time I looked at this in depth was the V1 playtest, hence my question asking if the V2 is any better.
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I think people are misunderstanding me.
I'm not asking how you afford it at level 1.
I'm asking
"If you use the "Guns Everywhere" option, is it worth the effort to build a non-gunslinger around using guns, or are they not effective enough without the special 'slinger options?"
and my examples were a rifle hunter ranger and a sniper rogue.
I'd personally want to use them for a ranger based swashbuckler, and as something you pull out and shoot before switching to your real weapons, I can see it being okay (for the price of 100g, not for 1000g); it's not going to miss, but it's probably not going to give you alot of damage either, based on the fact that you can't get your iterative attacks with it.
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Absolutely! I get your question, and the gun becomes the best option for any non-warrior classes at high levels (wizards, sorcerers, bards, rogues, clerics, and anything else without a full bab progression should have a gun at levels 12+)
e.g. Wizard or cleric and you're facing an iron golem AC 28 and your allies are already fully buffed; since the golem is mostly immune to most of your spells, just shoot him against his Touch AC of 8... at least you're doing 1d12 per round as you can't possibly miss Touch AC 8....
:)
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I think people are misunderstanding me.
I'm not asking how you afford it at level 1.
I'm asking
"If you use the "Guns Everywhere" option, is it worth the effort to build a non-gunslinger around using guns, or are they not effective enough without the special 'slinger options?"
and my examples were a rifle hunter ranger and a sniper rogue.
I'd personally want to use them for a ranger based swashbuckler, and as something you pull out and shoot before switching to your real weapons, I can see it being okay (for the price of 100g, not for 1000g); it's not going to miss, but it's probably not going to give you alot of damage either, based on the fact that you can't get your iterative attacks with it.
A large part of the controversy around guns comes from guns being possibly better in the hands on non-gunslingers.
At this point, I think guns more or less make crossbows obsolete after the first few levels, which I think is not a good thing.
Absolutely! I get your question, and the gun becomes the best option for any non-warrior classes at high levels (wizards, sorcerers, bards, rogues, clerics, and anything else without a full bab progression should have a gun at levels 12+)
e.g. Wizard or cleric and you're facing an iron golem AC 28 and your allies are already fully buffed; since the golem is mostly immune to most of your spells, just shoot him against his Touch AC of 8... at least you're doing 1d12 per round as you can't possibly miss Touch AC 8....
:)
unless you are using Adamantine rounds or have a +4 enchantment bonus or higher on the gun you are doing no damage against a iron golem because of the DR/15 Adamantine it has, with Gun training you will do part of your dex to it if you roll a 12
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I'm not going to get too involved in the conversation. I just wanted to point out that targeting Touch AC is not what Brilliant Energy does. Brilliant Energy ignores non-living matter, meaning that it can still be negated by Natural Armor, a primary monster defense later in the game (which is really the only time when you would have Brilliant Energy weapons anyways).
The other thing is that targeting Touch AC makes guns prime choices for stacking d6 elemental damage from enchantments. You don't need the +1 to hit, so take the ~3 damage.
Additionally, it is possible to fire shots from a pistol as a full-round action using all of your attacks, but only if you have Rapid Reload and are packing lots of Paper Cartridges (which stack up after a while). It's effective, but it would be time-consuming to create enough paper cartridges to last you for a while, and it would get expensive, too.
Then, there's the fact that you need one hand free to reload (though that will change for Gunslingers in Ultimate Combat). So, conceivably, you'd only be firing one pistol (or taking the quick-draw 6 pistols method), and making all of your other attacks with... unarmed strikes? Are we going to be seeing Gunslinging Monks in the future?
yes you get touch attack, but within the 20ft maybe 40ft, and you are still making a ranged attack which draws attacks of op if you are too close. slow reload time hurts as well, two handed takes a round to load before you can fire, and the one handed still eats your standard action to load just like a heavy crossbow. throw in the range difference as well, and the fact you can buy mighty crossbows with a higher pull but not so with guns.
Cross bows no more obsolete than before.
guns just bring in close range weapons that take some work to make quick and efficient.
personally I think a rogue with a shotgun/blunderbuss seems quite effective, or a ninja. basically shotgun sneak attack seems really useful to me.
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personally I think a rogue with a shotgun/blunderbuss seems quite effective, or a ninja. basically shotgun sneak attack seems really useful to me.Hate to burst your bubble, but I'm pretty sure you can't deal precision damage with an AoE like the blunderbuss. I'd still keep it around with some entangling cartridges for quick escapes, though.
This would be true if the AoE from a Blunderbuss/Shotgun required a Saving Throw. Since it is an attack roll for each target, you could, in fact, apply Sneak Attack damage to all of them.
I like guns as they're written. They're just too expensive. Compare them to a wand of magic missile.
At level 10, the fighters that I have built using guns can substantially outdamage (~150%) ones using the same generation method using bows, when they hit touch AC. Outside of touch range, they are still quite effective, but the penalties from range increments start to creep up on them. The added feat cost makes them difficult to dip into though.
I wouldn't say the guns are too expensive. The AMMO, on the other hand, is where the real cost is. Even making your own bullets it costs 1gp per paper cartridge and 1s per bullet/dose of black powder. In a long combat you can easily blow through 4-5 rounds, more if your duel wielding pistols. And it gets even worse at high levels as you start to add more attacks.
The other side of the problem is that the gunslinger is only doing similar damage to other classes because of crits. The gunslinger can be more accurate....but with a touch attack how accurate do you need to be? In between this and the aggressively limited amounts of grit (which never increases unless you take a feat in a feat-starved class), I see most gunslingers abandoning the class after 5th or 7th level to move into rogue or fighter. At that point, there are really no other benefits to staying in the class, you avoid a lot of the MAD and grit starvation that comes with the higher level abilities, and you increase your damage. Your as proficient as your going to be with the weapon and other classes get awesome additions to your attacks.
The gunslinger just needs a little extra something. If the class is based around being badass with guns, why do they get so little grit? Why are the best grit abilities feats that mimic other feats (leaping shot vs spring attack, or the dead shot class ability vs vital strike) that dont need grit? The only real benefit to being a gunslinger at the moment is the free gunslinger feat and gun training. Again, once you hit 5th level (or 7th level for startling shot if you want to get free sneak attacks) theres no reason to stay in the class. In an interesting spin, unlike other class abilities (like favored enemy) your gun training doesn't improve, it just applies to other guns.
Bah, im off topic. To answer the original poster yes. Not only are they viable, but the gunslinger class doesn't offer anything good enough to keep players in the class past the point where they reach a desired level of proficiency.
I wouldn't say the guns are too expensive. The AMMO, on the other hand, is where the real cost is. Even making your own bullets it costs 1gp per paper cartridge and 1s per bullet/dose of black powder. In a long combat you can easily blow through 4-5 rounds, more if your duel wielding pistols. And it gets even worse at high levels as you start to add more attacks.
How do you get 1 gold for a Paper Cartridge and 1 silver per Bullet/Black Powder? Under Gunsmithing's Rules on page 7, it says Crafting regular Bullets/Powder is a 10% cost to the Gunsmith; and [if you have 1 point into Craft: Alchemy] that crafting Alchemical Cartridges is at half [or 50%] cost.
Crafting Ammunition: You can craft bullets, pellets, and
black powder for a cost in raw materials equal to 10% of
the price. If you have at least 1 rank in Craft (alchemy), you
can craft alchemical cartridges for a cost in raw materials
equal to half the price of the cartridge. At your GM’s
discretion, you can craft metal cartridges for a cost in raw
materials equal to half the cost of the cartridge. Crafting
bullets, black powder, or cartridges takes 1 day of work for
every 1,000 gp of ammunition (minimum 1 day).
Black Powder: Black powder is the key explosive component
within a firearm, but in larger amounts it can be even more
destructive. A single dose of black powder is enough to power
a single shot from most one-handed and two-handed firearms.
Cost: 10 gp per dose.
Firearm Bullet: A firearm bullet typically takes the form of a
small ball of lead or some other metal. A bullet that misses is
destroyed. Cost: 1 gp per bullet.
Regular Bullet & Powder Mixture = 11 gold.
Crafted Cost = 1.1 Gold, or 1 Gold & 1 Silver. (11 gold > 10%)Paper Cartridge: This simple mix of black powder and
either pellets or a bullet increases the misfire value by 1.
Cost: 12 gp.
Regular Alchemical-Paper Cartridge = 12 gold.
Crafted Cost = 6 gold. (12 Gold > 50%)I mean... right? I'd LOVE to be paying only 1 Gold for Alchemical Cartridges, but I don't think the rules or math [Damn you Math!] supports it.
stuff
You must begin with the era in which you are playing as your base for craft costs.
Emerging Guns
The baseline prices for early firearm and ammunition given in the playtest 2 document are for this type of campaign.
Bullet/Pellets = 1 gp
Black Powder dose = 10 gp
Paper Cartridge = 10 gp
Metal Cartridge = 20 gp
With the Gunsmithing feat, you Craft firearms at ½ these prices, craft ammunition at 10% of these prices, and alchemical cartridges at ½ these prices.
Bullet/Pellets = 1 sp
Black Powder dose = 1gp
Paper Cartridge = 5 gp
Metal Cartridge = 10 gp
Early firearms and their ammunition cost 25% of the amount listed in this book, but advanced firearms and their ammunition are still rare and cost full price to buy or craft.
Bullet/Pellets = 5 sp
Black Powder dose = 4 gp
Paper Cartridge = 2 gp 5 sp
Metal Cartridge = 5 gp
With the Gunsmithing feat, you Craft firearms at ½ these prices, craft ammunition at 10% of these prices, and alchemical cartridges at ½ these prices.
Bullet/Pellets = 5 cp
Black Powder dose = 4 sp
Paper Cartridge = 1 gp 2 sp 5 cp
Metal Cartridge = 2 gp 5 sp
Firearms are simple weapons, and early firearms, advanced guns, and their ammunition are bought or crafted for 10% of the cost listed in this document.
Bullet/Pellets = 1 sp
Black Powder dose = 1 gp
Paper Cartridge = 1 gp
Metal Cartridge = 2 gp
With the Gunsmithing feat, you Craft firearms at ½ these prices, craft ammunition at 10% of these prices, and alchemical cartridges at ½ these prices.
Bullet/Pellets = 1 cp
Black Powder dose = 1 sp
Paper Cartridge = 1 sp
Metal Cartridge = 2 sp
It's a matter of what over-rides what. The time period you play in sets the NEW base price (adjust playtest document price according to this first), then calculate your adjustments using the Gunsmithing feat.
Big pricing difference huh? Much more reasonable.
Good. Good. I wanted to make sure that I didn't forget how to do math.
Also, here's an idea. If you salvage the metal casings from your spent rounds, do you then only need to buy the Black Powder?
since we are talking about ammo right now, in UC is there going to be a table that gives the cost for gun ammo made from special materials?
Good. Good. I wanted to make sure that I didn't forget how to do math.
Also, here's an idea. If you salvage the metal casings from your spent rounds, do you then only need to buy the Black Powder?
I apologize, I had my costs mixed up. But my point carries. In a world where arrows come in sets of twenty for 1g, your paying the same amount for one of the basic shots from your weapon. As you level up, you need better ammunition with more effects (because from my own experience testing gunslinger, thats one of the few ways to do anything other than shoot guns and dive for cover) and you get more attacks. The cost goes up again. Then you want to enchant your ammunition, more cost. The effect is nice.....but the cost does spike very fast. More so than even the archer built to hose arrows at an enemy.
If your playing in the world where metal casings exist, I see no reason you couldn't. That was in fact something that many people did in the old west, when they were expected to make their own bullets.