And while I understand your point, we have no way at this time to determine if these feats will exist, and thus your entire argument is based upon a circumstance which may not even exist.
Based on that, I am afraid that at this time I cannot find it a credible point.
Well, I think it's reasonable to say "guns are far more powerful than other combat options, except for bows if you include bow-specific combat feats." And it's also reasonable to say, "because we expect there to be gun-specific combat feats as well, I would like to compare guns and bows without weapon-specific feats to get a baseline comparison".
The musket guy doesn't get two shots, I simply put his secodary attack in for no reason I guess.
So it's a difference between 12 damage at 95% and 14 damage at 85%, which is essentially a wash. I don't see how the gun-wielder is overpowered in this case. Both fighters do about the same damage per round on average.
Ninja'd by OP
So, the one math example that has actually been given doesn't show the musket-wielder to be overpowered; it shows the musket-wielder and the bow-wielder to be equally effective against a heavy natural armor opponent.
Do you have a different example where the gun-wielder is significantly more powerful? If not, it doesn't seem like your overpowered assertion is supported by your math.
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Why does a gun get to bypass armor, what is the reasoning behind this.
Ever shot an elephant or a bear with a pistol, it doesn't just magically bypass their hide, it just makes them angry.
Ever shot a tank with a rifle, it doesn't just magically travel through it like butter.
I think Mr. .400 Nitro Express would beg to differ.
And surely you're aware that the very first anti-tank weapons were large-caliber rifles, right?
Or the fact that people can and do kill bears with pistols (.44 magnum, .50 AE, .454 Casull, etc. - which you may argue is way overpowered but even that round compared to a rifle round is chump change).
And so on.
You're referencing modern high-tech firearms, not muskets and flintlock pistols.
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The musket guy doesn't get two shots, I simply put his secodary attack in for no reason I guess.So it's a difference between 12 damage at 95% and 14 damage at 85%, which is essentially a wash. I don't see how the gun-wielder is overpowered in this case. Both fighters do about the same damage per round on average.
Its still 42.5% not 85% (when you average two things you add them together and then divide by two)
Its still 42.5% not 85% (when you average two things you add them together and then divide by two)
That's incorrect. The damage per round is 85% of 14, adding the hit probability of the two attacks.
Here's a build I whipped up. Couldn't think of feats to throw in at the blank levels, so any ideas would be much appreciated. Also, any ideas on equipment for the Gunman would be much appreciated.
If I missed anything, let me know.
Average dpr calculated using this thread
They are shooting against the Black Dragon stats above: AC 28, Touch 10.
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Human Fighter 10 (Archer)
Str 20 (17 buy, +1 4th lvl, +2 belt)
Dex 20 (15 buy, +2 Racial, +1 8th lvl, +2 belt)
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 9
Cha 8
Equipment:
+3 Comp Longbow (+5 Str), +2 Belt of Physical Might (Str & Dex), Greater Bracers of Archery.
Feats:
1H - Weapon Focus (Longbow) [WF]
1B - Point Blank Shot [PBS]
1 - Precise Shot
2B - Rapid Shot [RS]
3 - Deadly Aim [DA]
4B - Weapon Specialisation (Longbow) [WS]
5 -
6B - Manyshot [MS]
7 -
8B - Greater Weapon Focus (Longbow) [GWF]
9 - Critical Focus [CF]
10B - Improved Critical
To hit (using Manyshot, Rapid Shot and 3 point Deadly Aim): +20/+20/+15 (+10 BAB, +5 Dex, +2 Weapon Training, +1 WF, +1 GWF, +1 PBS, +3 Enhancement, +2 Bracers of Archery, -3 DA, -2 RS)
Damage: 1d8 + 20 (+5 Str, +3 Enhancement, +1 BoA, +6 DA, +2 WS, +2 WT +1 PBS)
DPR: 2*(.65*24.5) + (.65*24.5) + (.40*24.5) + (.5*2*.85*24.5) = 61 (Rounded down)
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Human Fighter 10 (Gunman)
Str 10
Dex 26 (18 buy, +2 Racial, +1 lvl 4, +1 lvl8, +4 belt)
Con 14
Int 9
Wis 10
Cha 10
Equipment:
+3 Pistol, Belt of incredible Dex (+4)
Feats:
1H - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearms)
1B - Weapon Focus (Pistol) [WF]
1 - Point Blank Shot [PBS]
2B - Precise Shot
3 - Deadly Aim [DA]
4B - Weapon Specialisation (Longbow) [WS]
5 - Rapid Reload
6B -
7 -
8B - Greater Weapon Focus (Longbow) [GWF]
9 - Critical Focus [CF]
10B - Imp Critical (pistol)
To Hit (Using 3 point DA): +21/+16 (+10 BAB, +8 Dex, +3 Enhancement, +2 Weapon Training, +1 WF, +1 GWF, +1 PBS, -3 DA,)
Damage: 1d6 + 22 (+8 Dex, +3 Enhancement, +6 DA, +2 WS, +2 WT, +1 PBS)
DPR: (.90*25.5) + (.90*25.5) + (.1*3*.90*25.5) = 52 (Rounded down)
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If my calculations aren't completely off, the archer does more damage per round, thanks to rapid shot & manyshot, even with the 'shooting against normal AC' handicap.
This also assumes one is using Rapid Reload and the paper charges, just so the gunman can use a full attack. This also brings the misfire chance up to 10%, which brings it's own problems.
Even if you replace the pistol with a rifle, that brings the DPR up to 60, which is on par.
What the samhill is an OP?
OP = Original Poster, so you, in this case.
Now look here everyone, look here at this handy-dandy combat and chars I rolled up.
How handy.
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You're referencing modern high-tech firearms, not muskets and flintlock pistols.Ok, fair enough...since you're referring to black-powder weapons, we can remove tanks from the equation.
Although surely you know that the .400 nitro initially used black-powder cartirdges?
Or that people still today kill bears with black-powder muskets? Notice that I said still today. As in, it happened in the past too.
Because in the real world armor functions like damage reduction (like it does in Spycraft) and when you get shot if the gun doesn't do large ammounts of damage you don't get hurt.
Pistol versus Tactical Vest (DR 5) pistol does 1d6 damage usually doesn't hurt the vest wearer. Rifle does 2d6 usually shoots the guy in the vest full of holes.But the problem with Pathfinders new guns is that a guy wearing Full Plate armor and carrying a shield is just as vulnerable as a guy wearing plain clothes (actually more vulnerable cause the guy in his clothes gets his DEX bonus). And thats just not right.
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Fighter A gets his two shot sure, but needs a 9 (55%) and a 14 (30%) to hit. Not unreasonable.60% and 35%, actually. Average damage each round, 13.3.
+2 rifle +16/+11 1d10+2 (avg 7)
gets to make both his shots which both only miss on a 1.Average damage, 13.3 per round.
With the musket, average damage 8.55 per round.
Each number on a d20 equals 5% so if 10 is 50% then 9 is 55% not 60%
Sorry...wrong button
SRM
Each number on a d20 equals 5% so if 10 is 50% then 9 is 55% not 60%Fighter A gets his two shot sure, but needs a 9 (55%) and a 14 (30%) to hit. Not unreasonable.60% and 35%, actually. Average damage each round, 13.3.
+2 rifle +16/+11 1d10+2 (avg 7)
gets to make both his shots which both only miss on a 1.Average damage, 13.3 per round.
With the musket, average damage 8.55 per round.
That is incorrect. Half the die is 1-10. The other half is 11-20. So 11 is 50%, and 9 is 60%.
Now that you've seen the math, would you agree that the math does not really show guns to be overpowered?
Alright. There has been some good conversation here, but it it peppered by too many quips and insults.
That and we are starting to retread the same ground.
The thread is closed. Thank you to all those of you who kept in civil and on target.