Guns work different. It's not only the truth, it is the goal. They work differently when it comes to proficiency, they work differently when it comes to size, they work differently when it comes to attacks.There is no such thing as a light firearm, a small rifle is still a two-handed weapon in the hands of a Medium creature (though they do get the penalty for using a weapon not of inappropriate size.
Even with bows, if you reduce the size, they don't become one-handed or light weapons.
Can I ask, then, do they work differently in regards to two-weapon fighting? There are many things which suggest that these "sizes" don't actually mean much. They don't reduce in "size" (2-handed to 1-handed) when reduced to small or tiny. Their damage also doesn't drop when concerning the "pistol whip" deed if small or tiny (you'd better look out for those musket-toting pixie gunslingers).
So do they have different rules for dual-wielding? Is a 1-handed firearm treated as any other 1-handed weapon when using TWF? Or is it different, because if it's the same, then we have a problem.
As it stands, the classic (and iconic) dual-pistol-slinging gunslinger is ridiculous. Not only do you have to pay outlandish prices (something easily houseruled) for your guns by RAW, but with their new "categorization" of guns as "1-handed" or "2-handed" ranged weapons, no gun is considered "light," and therefore all guns that can be used with TWF automatically take the full -4 penalty.
Why? Does that not seem counter-intuitive to the whole point of a gunslinger? Yes, there are arguments that one could make it more like a musketeer or a swashbuckler, but I argue that even with a swashbuckler, you have to be careful about your off-hand weapon if you're going pistol-and-blade. It has to be light, effectively limiting you to daggers and the shortsword.
Even the little coat pistol is considered one-handed. Are guns really so new that even people who train extensively with them, and practice using them in both hands, take a -4 penalty? It's easy to argue size when talking about swinging around a pair of longswords or even firing off a pair of revolvers, but something like the coat-pistol? Really?
So I propose the question, with all the new mechanics being crammed into guns, does TWF get a re-write, too? Or are we stuck with what we've got? Or maybe there'll be a new set of feats specifically meant for dual-wielding firearms.
Food for thought,
-The Beast
I think the -4 TWF penalty for gunslingers is simultaneously moot and appropriate.
Making contact with two melee weapons is one thing, shooting two pistols, especially at different targets is another, so it's harder, no matter the size of the pistol.
When the gunslinger is going to be doing this, its up close and personal, which is short range against touch AC. So moot.
Father away he's more likely to shoot one at a time (this would be the same IRL), however if he wants to be daring and push his luck to try and hit with both at range, this should be a little harder.
When the gunslinger is going to be doing this, its up close and personal, which is short range against touch AC. So moot.
This. I think most time it will not be an issue.
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That brings them exactly in line with the penalty for firing two light crossbows at the same time which with TWF is also -4 to each attack.
As it stands, the classic (and iconic) dual-pistol-slinging gunslinger is ridiculous. Not only do you have to pay outlandish prices (something easily houseruled) for your guns by RAW, but with their new "categorization" of guns as "1-handed" or "2-handed" ranged weapons, no gun is considered "light," and therefore all guns that can be used with TWF automatically take the full -4 penalty.
If they make the final wording into "you may shoot a pistol one handed at no penalty, and a musket one handed at -2 penalty", then via TWF you'll be at -2/-2 for twin pistol build and -4/-4 for twin musket build. Sounds ok to me: a musket should be about as hard to shoot one handed as a light crossbow.
This may be more of a reflection of advanced firearms than the gunslinger itself, but I was working on a highly optimized 16th level double revolver user, and he is one scary dude. Dex 30, entire two weapon fighting chain and signature deed - bleeding wound. +28/+28/+23/+23/+18/+18/+13/+13 vs. touch, 1d8+15 with two revolvers +5, using metal cartridges for free reload, and can do up to 80 pts of bleed a round.
Granted, he goes through about 160 gp per round, but I sure wouldn't want to face him.
What's a bit more worrying to me is that I don't see a reason to stay with gunfighter past level 12.
The penalty can be largely negated by taking the TWF feat and the Improved TWF feat can't it?
Well, TWF reduces the penalties, ITWF gives you an additional attack, and as per normal rules you must do a full-attack. So, the only way ITWF would do you any good is with revolvers, as even with Rapid Reload, a one-handed firearm becomes a move action, which you could not do alongside a full attack.
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the reload on dual wielding ranged weapons has always been the kicker. for pistols , you'll need multiple sets of pistols and quickdraw if you want to be able to fire every round.
with crossbows, even if you could get the action to be "free" to reload, it always stipulated that you need a free hand in order to do it, even for the repeating crossbows.
for pistols i'd presume the -4/-4 twf penalty like light crossbows. with a revolver you'd hopefully not have to worry about reloading, and could fire at your base attack bonus. but with pistols, you'll still be stuck in-build for a while: twf, quickdraw, rapid reload, etc. 3rd or 5th level until you hit your stride as a twin pistol gunslinger.