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If I summon a Noble Djinni and asked really nice, do you think we could use a wish spell to rescue the thread? It seems like it's really important, and we can't just let Efreeti run around here all willy-nilly like they are now... :D
I think you will suffer a high risk of wish perversion, not by the Noble Djinni but from the high resistance of the universe against a so unnatural feat. ;-)
The current OP situation is that he has spoken with his GM and got to a agreement.
He will get 2 wishes (from 1 Efreeti I think, or maybe he would conjure 2 of them and get one wish from each one), but he will use them only as enhanced divination, not to rais his characteristics.
A thoughtful and relevant response
Hi Icedeep,
I hear what you're saying and Wraithstrike brought up a similar point.
I think the language in my original post was a bit sloppy and that there are 2 main issues here; PC abilities and NPC abilities.
Addressing PC's, I agree that GM changes to spells and feats should be transparent with regards to the players. However, as is so often the case in life, things work just fine until they don't and it can be difficult to foresee problems before they arrive. You gave an example of changing power attack, which I would probably not like that as the player, but I think it falls within the GM's prerogative to balance the game for their group.
Having said that, changing the way player abilities work is not always the right solution, it really depends on what is causing the perceived imbalance / problem.
With regards to NPCs, I think we just have different opinions here. An Epic battle just doesn't feel very epic if it ends with a lucky crit, and when a recurring villain dies early in the adventure it can mess up the story. I will be the first to agree that this is in effect a kind of railroading, but I'm not sure that's entirely a bad thing. It kind of depends on whether you see the players as the center of the story, or as a cog in a much bigger machine.
In any case, thanks for your response and keeping the tone civil.
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I considered saying to pull from noble djinni instead, why? Because they're good, so now you're casting big awesome GOOD aligned spells for... getting free wishes? Wait, huh? If I call and bind an evil creature to help me do good, shouldn't that be good? If I call and bind a good creature to help me do evil, shouldn't that be evil?
I'm not quite sure why planar binding an efreeti is evil while a djinni is good (other than the book says so). Its pretty easy to switch to pulling noble djinn instead (to avoid the alignment hit of casting evil spells)
I think that it is born from the conjuring of demons and devils.
They are the classical reference for conjurations, you generally end in a diabolic act with them, something that always end badly and normally are used for evil intents.
The Planar bindings spells allow you to control the bound creature to a point. But if you try to impose your will on a demon so that he will cure a plague it is almost guaranteed that he will make a new ST every few rounds, making your attempt unproductive, while if you summon the same demon to assassinate someone it will do it gladly and oppose little resistance.
so, as the end has a tendency to be distorted by the instrument used (evil outsider or good outsider) the spell is classified good or evil in relation to what you call.
Efreeti and all geniekind are a deviation from that situation.
They grant wishes that can be perverted, but not always in evil ways and the literature used as a base for the creatures don't depict them exactly as "pure" evil like demons and devils.
I think that it is born from the conjuring of demons and devils.
They are the classical reference for conjurations, you generally end in a diabolic act with them, something that always end badly and normally are used for evil intents.
The Planar bindings spells allow you to control the bound creature to a point. But if you try to impose your will on a demon so that he will cure a plague it is almost guaranteed that he will make a new ST every few rounds, making your attempt unproductive, while if you summon the same demon to assassinate someone it will do it gladly and oppose little resistance.
so, as the end has a tendency to be distorted by the instrument used (evil outsider or good outsider) the spell is classified good or evil in relation to what you call.
Efreeti and all geniekind are a deviation from that situation.
They grant wishes that can be perverted, but not always in evil ways and the literature used as a base for the creatures don't depict them exactly as "pure" evil like demons and devils.
I think for the purposes of the thought experiment then, a Djinn would be a much better target for planar binding than an efreet. Since Djinn are good aligned, they are much less likely to try to screw you on the wish (though, they might not stick to their word as well). On the other hand, if they want out of the binding, they have to fulfill their side of things.
As far as creatures which can abuse wishes, great wyrm metallic brass dragons can summon a djinn once per day. So they already have 3wishes/day they can use. What keeps them from abusing that?
Unlike Efreeti, the ordinary Djinn can't grant wishes. (unless it's to create food and water) The only wish granters among them are the Noble Djinn, and binding them is asking for trouble. If not then, then down the road.
But its a [Good] Spell! Bad things don't happen from casting [Good] spells! :P /sarcasm
First question: find the plane - non binary problem, so you will still have to whittle down the planes none at a time.
List out all planes in alphabetical order. Is he on any of the planes between X and Y? Binary search again.
Then, when you know the planet/domain you can try your binary search est of/west of.
Just do it on the scale of the whole plane, the they don't need to know the name of the square they found, just where it is.
You still haven't provided what questions are actually going to locate where I currently am at, or even where I originally caught the efreet.
It's effectively "Is X located between points A and B?". That's not the precise language, but it's enough to demonstrate the idea.
Or maybe, its a divination spell, and thus cannot provide info on me.
You can't cast Mind blank on your rope trick, mansion etc. Just search for your rope tricks.
Rope trick, do my efreet catching, then plane shift somewhere else, cast MMM and go to bed.
Yes, and they'll hone down on your MMM while your sleeping and dispel it. No rest accomplished.
You are saying "GM Fiat, rocks fall, efreet kill you." Why even pretend you're not?
The Wishmaster (actually called Wish Guardian but Wishmaster is a cooler name) is actually described in the efreet entry, try reading the entire thread.
By the time you are asking about a mansion, it no longer exists.
You're assuming that only one parallel CoP is being cast. A group of 10 people could stagger their CoP's so that one finishes each minute.
You also didn't address why I can't use CoP to just find a efreet who will grant me free wishes in exchange for some permanencies.
Because that's not the issue at hand. The issue at hand is forcing efreets to give you free wishes.
Also let us suppose that you can plane hop and hide enough to avoid the CoP, congratulations your character can no longer participate in the campaign. Mission accomplished.
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I really am not just talking out of my trousers, I have an MA in Ancient History with an ancient science and tech focused thesis regarding process and application of theory.
Oh right.
The old 'I actually know what I'm talking about because I've actually studied things relating to the matters being discussed' chestnut!
Oh! Loooookeeeeeeee heeere, we got ourselves one of them edyookated types!
I bet you know aaaaaall kinds of things Mr(Mrs, Miss, Misc, Dr) Studying-the-subject.
Yeah, books and stuff 'eh? WITH YOUR KNOWLEDGE!11!
HA!
I mock thee!
Once! MOCK!
Twice! MOCK, MOCK!
THREE TIMEs A LAAADY.. no wait, ..MOCK, MOCK, MOCK!
::
Thank you sir, I however will stick to my vague guessing and armchair research!
GOOD DAY!
::
-.o The real test is - ''Do you have.. a beard?''
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>_<
lol, aaah dude, twas not a serious post - I respect your learning :)
Don't think it was/is pompous at all - you stated your point and cited your credentials.
If someone has a problem with that, so be it!
Personally, I welcome contribution from folk that have actually done the homework.
::
A BEARD?
HE HAS A BEARD?!
O_O
DOOOOOOOMED!
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The old 'I actually know what I'm talking about because I've actually studied things relating to the matters being discussed' chestnut!
-.o The real test is - ''Do you have.. a beard?'' [/ooc]
I have no idea how the Hell to take that.
I am torn between laughing at you as usual and being offended. Not because your mocking me, to which I frankly couldn't give a damn. But because you seem to think that someone who has studied something in-depth should be regarded with derision and mocking rather than respect. I think people who choose to study an academic subject in this day and age should be applauded and not mocked. You are welcome to your opinions. It says a lot about the world we live in.
I think his exaggerated mocking was actually meant to offer kudos to you and mock everyone else. Sort of the old "how dare you counter opinions with actual fact!" shock gambit.
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Yup
Yes!
Thank you Nightwish for helping clarify my madness.
::
I COME IN PEACE
I MEAN YOU NO HARM
ON DAY
First question: find the plane - non binary problem, so you will still have to whittle down the planes none at a time.List out all planes in alphabetical order. Is he on any of the planes between X and Y? Binary search again.
Problem: Core, 441, "There are countless demiplanes adrift in reality"
You cannot list out all planes, there are an infinite amount.Then, when you know the planet/domain you can try your binary search est of/west of.Just do it on the scale of the whole plane, the they don't need to know the name of the square they found, just where it is.
You can't know the plane, as you haven't solved the infinite planes problem.
You still haven't provided what questions are actually going to locate where I currently am at, or even where I originally caught the efreet.It's effectively "Is X located between points A and B?". That's not the precise language, but it's enough to demonstrate the idea.
Again, you still don't know what plane the spell is on. How do you know which spell to look for? How do you know if it is even a spell? (Portable hole etc.) You haven't provided any specific questions other than ones that will find me, if you already have a reasonably good idea of where I am. Starting with the information "Bob and 4 other efreeti went missing over the last days" lead me the questions that would find a wizard w/mind blank who planeshifted to a demi-plane (w/planar adaptation), then used a rope trick/MMM/portable hole to execute the planar binding.
You've also yet to show how they know Bob and his 4 buddies were abducted and not just all went somewhere over 5 days.
Or maybe, its a divination spell, and thus cannot provide info on me.You can't cast Mind blank on your rope trick, mansion etc. Just search for your rope tricks.
And again, what question are you asking? "Is a rope trick on the material plane between X and Y?" is it "Is whoever killed the efreeti Bob's rope trick on the material plane between X and Y?" The answer to the first is just a "yes" because there are likely quite a few wizards hanging out in rope tricks sleeping at any given time. The answer to the second is "no" as I never killed Bob the efreeti.
Rope trick, do my efreet catching, then plane shift somewhere else, cast MMM and go to bed.Yes, and they'll hone down on your MMM while your sleeping and dispel it. No rest accomplished.
Still haven't solved the infinite planes problem. Unless you think all the efreeti are going to make an infinitely long list. (Maybe they'll wish for a list of all planes!)
You are saying "GM Fiat, rocks fall, efreet kill you." Why even pretend you're not?The Wishmaster (actually called Wish Guardian but Wishmaster is a cooler name) is actually described in the efreet entry, try reading the entire thread.
In the efreet entry? Really? I see nothing about a wish guardian, wish master, or anything else like that in the beastiary Pg. 140.
By the time you are asking about a mansion, it no longer exists.You're assuming that only one parallel CoP is being cast. A group of 10 people could stagger their CoP's so that one finishes each minute.
Since its taking me a whopping 6 seconds (planar binding); 6 seconds (negotiation); 18 seconds (cast 3 wishes); 30 seconds in the MMM, even 1/minute isn't fast enough. Next you'll say you have 600 so that you can get 1 finishing every second.
You also didn't address why I can't use CoP to just find a efreet who will grant me free wishes in exchange for some permanencies.Because that's not the issue at hand. The issue at hand is forcing efreets to give you free wishes.
Oh, so I can just cast CoP and ask "where can I get free wishes from?" and get a reasonably good answer? Just make sure i do it a few times to make sure I get the most likely correct answer.
Also let us suppose that you can plane hop and hide enough to avoid the CoP, congratulations your character can no longer participate in the campaign. Mission accomplished.
For a week, or two, or three, or four. I think 30 wishes is plenty, after that, I can resume hanging out with the normal adventuring group. Just gotta make sure I keep mind blank up.
If I just keep creating counters of course someone will eventually find a way past me, but I still don't think there is any one player than can get a fool-proof plan up on the first go around.
That would give it a second will + 4 since being bossed into using is wish is against its nature. That also assumes a miniumum of a 17th level caster which places you higher on the easy to find list, but I do admit it greatly increases your chances of pulling it off the first time.Yes, it needs 17th level. As does Soul Bind. And thats ONLY to avoid specific interpretations. Still not bad for free wishes, considering what you pay for your own!
But seriously - so it has a second save. So what? As stated before, there are many, many ways of debuffing stats and saves, especially with a creature at your mercy. Considering his base will save is +9, and you can easily reach a DC of 29 prior spell focus, and prior inherent bonuses, and PRIOR DEBUFFING, my money is still on the wizard.
And still, there are numerous smaller tricks like Sympathy or/and Charm Monster, though those can fall victim to DM interpretation far more easily.
So... what new counters have I mentioned in that post?
As for the commune thing you are must have missed a few posts. My idea was to never mentioned the mind blanked caster, only the Efreet.Assuming they find the Efreeti: That helps them... How? I mean, even if they can resurrect him, they now know... what? That he saw a nondescript room, details disappearing in the mist, and his conjurer being an old bald man with fancy tattoos and a red robe (Red Wizards of Thay, of which there are hundreds) when in truth the wizard was an elven sorceress?
The wish is formed by the will of the efreet (which means dominate will not allow you to use his wishes, as he must grant them himself, and cannot grant a wish if his will is subverted entirely).Flat-out...
I think the counter was prior debuffing, but the point was nobody has countered commune yet, and if I ask specific question you can't really counter them until I think of them.
They might find the Effreet before he dies, remember the assumption is still chain binding. I already said earlier the caster probably gets the first one as a freebie. The commune could be used to play the elimination game.
Did a human kill the Efreet
Was it a wizard
Was it a sorcerer.
Did they have the ability(power) to cast spell X(determines power level)
Are there more than 30 people in this category than can do this
You just keep dropping the possible suspects this way.
If commune is blocked by mind blank then you won't get an answer, but it won't be a know.
All the "I don't knows will be suspects."
The spell is not limited to one casting per day so you get multiple people to it.
Has you even ask has person X ever appeared in Thay type wizard robes. That way even if the robes are an illusion if fits because he appeared that way to the Effreet.
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First question: find the plane - non binary problem, so you will still have to whittle down the planes none at a time.List out all planes in alphabetical order. Is he on any of the planes between X and Y? Binary search again.
You know all the planes? No there are plenty of demiplanes know to very few persons.
Then, when you know the planet/domain you can try your binary search est of/west of.
Just do it on the scale of the whole plane, the they don't need to know the name of the square they found, just where it is.
You are still searching a planet. As I already pointed out you need to first search the universe for the planet(3 dimensional object). Some plane are even multidimensional (I recall a old adventure inside a tesseract).
Or maybe, its a divination spell, and thus cannot provide info on me.
You can't cast Mind blank on your rope trick, mansion etc. Just search for your rope tricks.
And again you dismissing that the searcher don't know what he is searching for. A rope trick, the entrance of a MM, a extra planar structure of some other kind? You add questions and questions to yout Contact Other Planes.
Rope trick, do my efreet catching, then plane shift somewhere else, cast MMM and go to bed.
Yes, and they'll hone down on your MMM while your sleeping and dispel it. No rest accomplished.
And why now they are searching for his MM? They were searching for the rope trick where he did the summoning.Your guys don't need CoP, they are already omniscient.
Note that after finding the location of the Rope trick they still don't know who the culprit was, so how they can find his MM?
By the time you are asking about a mansion, it no longer exists.
You're assuming that only one parallel CoP is being cast. A group of 10 people could stagger their CoP's so that one finishes each minute.
LOL, and they are communicating they findings to each other while they are concentrating to the spells, the 10 different greater good they are contacting don't have anyting to say to this kind of shenanigans and so on? It is ridicule. What are your guys a 10 core PC?
You also didn't address why I can't use CoP to just find a efreet who will grant me free wishes in exchange for some permanencies.
Because that's not the issue at hand. The issue at hand is forcing efreets to give you free wishes.
Feat accomplished when your omnipotent CoP get a efreety that will grant his wishes to him freely.
Also let us suppose that you can plane hop and hide enough to avoid the CoP, congratulations your character can no longer participate in the campaign. Mission accomplished.
Maybe or maybe not. Depend on the campaign.
You are arguing very hard but you are trying to get a spell to do what it don't do.
And, BTW, you haven't jet got who the culprit was.
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I think the counter was prior debuffing, but the point was nobody has countered commune yet, and if I ask specific question you can't really counter them until I think of them.They might find the Effreet before he dies, remember the assumption is still chain binding. I already said earlier the caster probably gets the first one as a freebie. The commune could be used to play the elimination game.
Did a human kill the Efreet
Was it a wizard
Was it a sorcerer.
Did they have the ability(power) to cast spell X(determines power level)
Are there more than 30 people in this category than can do this
You just keep dropping the possible suspects this way.If commune is blocked by mind blank then you won't get an answer, but it won't be a know.
All the "I don't knows will be suspects."
The spell is not limited to one casting per day so you get multiple people to it.Has you even ask has person X ever appeared in Thay type wizard robes. That way even if the robes are an illusion if fits because he appeared that way to the Effreet.
Same problem as any other spell that contact a entity but can't force them to reply truthfully:
1) no contactable entity is omniscient, so when your questions get a "unknow" (one word, remember?) it can be for plenty of reasons
2) you can't force the entity to say the truth even if he know it. A god can withhold informations or even give false one for his scopes.
Commune run a way lesser risk than CoP, but it still exist.
3) you are playing the question game with a deity. You can't constantly run to daddy deity and ask question like a 5 years old and hope to keep your clerical powers.
4) chain binding could mean a lot of thing. Let's say our guy abduct 1 efreeti every year. I would still consider it a form of chain binding but probably, considering that there is a multiuniverse of powerful casters there have been several hundred efreeti abductions. So he is hidden between a lot of other culprits.
Look how long some serial murders has been capable to avoid being caught, with way less resources than a high level spellcaster.
Sure, the hunters have higher level resources than today police, but it level out.
A risk, yes, even a high risk, certainly? No.
"Are there more than 30 people in this category than can do this "
Note that this question almost certainly get an unknown. Or a yes as there is still a multiuniverse of people.
I think the counter was prior debuffing, but the point was nobody has countered commune yet, and if I ask specific question you can't really counter them until I think of them.
They might find the Effreet before he dies, remember the assumption is still chain binding. I already said earlier the caster probably gets the first one as a freebie. The commune could be used to play the elimination game.
Did a human kill the Efreet
Was it a wizard
Was it a sorcerer.
Did they have the ability(power) to cast spell X(determines power level)
Are there more than 30 people in this category than can do this
You just keep dropping the possible suspects this way.If commune is blocked by mind blank then you won't get an answer, but it won't be a know.
All the "I don't knows will be suspects."
The spell is not limited to one casting per day so you get multiple people to it.Has you even ask has person X ever appeared in Thay type wizard robes. That way even if the robes are an illusion if fits because he appeared that way to the Effreet.
First off, thank you for replying to the direct question I asked.
As to your questions, in my example the answers are:
Did a human kill the Efreet. No (Maybe I'm an elf? also I haven't killed any efreet)
Was it a wizard Unclear/no answer as you have no "it"
Was it a sorcerer. Unclear/no answer as you have no "it"
Did they have the ability(power) to cast spell X(determines power level) Unclear/no answer as you have no "it"
Are there more than 30 people in this category than can do this. I'm betting this would be a "yes"
You just keep dropping the possible suspects this way. Sure, but you're already starting with the assumption that Bob is dead. I guess you could start with "Is Bob dead?" and get a No. Not sure where you can go with that for 1 word answers.
Again, I am assuming commune/CoP would be able to answer things about Bob, even though hes trapped in a gem I'm carrying. If you can get an answer like:"Is jim the wizard on the material plane?" "unclear" "Is jim the wizard's underwear on the material plane?" "yes"
Then I see that as mind blank going from "great to have all the time" to "not worth the ink to put it in your spellbook"
I think the counter was prior debuffing, but the point was nobody has countered commune yet, and if I ask specific question you can't really counter them until I think of them.They might find the Effreet before he dies, remember the assumption is still chain binding. I already said earlier the caster probably gets the first one as a freebie. The commune could be used to play the elimination game.
Did a human kill the Efreet
Was it a wizard
Was it a sorcerer.
Did they have the ability(power) to cast spell X(determines power level)
Are there more than 30 people in this category than can do this
You just keep dropping the possible suspects this way.If commune is blocked by mind blank then you won't get an answer, but it won't be a know.
All the "I don't knows will be suspects."
The spell is not limited to one casting per day so you get multiple people to it.Has you even ask has person X ever appeared in Thay type wizard robes. That way even if the robes are an illusion if fits because he appeared that way to the Effreet.
Same problem as any other spell that contact a entity but can't force them to reply truthfully:
1) no contactable entity is omniscient, so when your questions get a "unknow" (one word, remember?) it can be for plenty of reasons
2) you can't force the entity to say the truth even if he know it. A god can withhold informations or even give false one for his scopes.
Commune run a way lesser risk than CoP, but it still exist.3) you are playing the question game with a deity. You can't constantly run to daddy deity and ask question like a 5 years old and hope to keep your clerical powers.
4) chain binding could mean a lot of thing. Let's say our guy abduct 1 efreeti every year. I would still consider it a form of chain binding but probably, considering that there is a multiuniverse of powerful casters there have been several hundred efreeti abductions. So he is hidden between a lot of other culprits.
Look how long some...
I am not saying every possible yes or no will get a yes or no. I do believe that since the spell is intended to be helpful that you will get a small percentage of "I don't know's". I also believe that with several casters asking the same question of different deities that at least one of them will have an answer.
By cross referencing the yes, no, and I don't know it will definitely make things easier. Then you start the yes/no game again.As it has been stated before the campaign world will be a big factor. This might take a while(a week) in FR, but in Golarion or Eberron I think it can be done in a day.
Soooo, you can scry on their crystal ball, and their clothes might be hanging off to the side in mid air because they are using mind blank.
I love these head explosion moments.
(It says the spell does not detect the person with Mind Blank up.)
I am not saying every possible yes or no will get a yes or no. I do believe that since the spell is intended to be helpful that you will get a small percentage of "I don't know's". I also believe that with several casters asking the same question of different deities that at least one of them will have an answer.
By cross referencing the yes, no, and I don't know it will definitely make things easier. Then you start the yes/no game again.
As it has been stated before the campaign world will be a big factor. This might take a while(a week) in FR, but in Golarion or Eberron I think it can be done in a day.No. Because it could be in fact anywhere. Even in either of those settings, if you assume them to be part of the same cosmology. Thats just how big the multiverse is. Endless amounts of demiplanes. Limitless extradimensional spaces. Other material planes. Hundreds of abyssal layers. The many different outer planes. In Planescape, places like the outlands and Sigil. The elemental and energy planes. Quasi and paraelemental planes possibly. The mind-boggingly difficult task of actually measuring and mapping places like the astral plane.
And all this is assuming that CoP/Commune will be of any significant aid against Mind Blank at all, which RAW simply does not say.
You know... I think if this is done with a Planescape background, I'd actually do the calling from an extradimensional space created in Sigil. Considering not even gods can get in there, I should be pretty safe even from deific intervention and spying as long as I dont piss off the Lady of Pain.
My first goal would be to find out who did it. Finding out where they are is something different. I can commune on the Efreet to find out where it is or has been.
If the caster is in a demiplane it is probably his magnificent mansion spell. Using a wish to follow a creature to another plane in conjuction with another spell is not game breaking, and I would follow the Efreet.RAW says I can't divine against the caster in question. It does not protect other people which is what we are saying we are doing. It would make sense to eliminate the other suspects so you know who/what you are dealing with.
Even if it can be anywhere in the multiverse there are still only so many casters native to a setting that can do certain things so I am correct that the setting matters.
To be clear I was not asking which casters that are on the material plane can do X. I was asking about casters in the entire setting. Even if you go to a demiplane you are still in that setting.
Once, I had a player wish for something...
They were in desert and they were searching to destroy a phylactory of Vecna which was buried deep within the earth (it was an epic campaign).
So, without knowing, the player wished the phylactory to the surface.... and he rose his hands above him in the air.
He did not know that the phylactory was the size of a 7 story building and half as larg around. I had the phylactory appear in his hands directly above him... where it stayed for about .01 seconds before falling on him.
lol.
We are talking about using literal interpretations to allow you to get 3 level 9 spells free from a level 6.
Using literal interpretations of Mind Blank to find you do not seem unreasonable. The spell doesn't say Caster or his possessions.
Tit for tat, and all that.
Hmm, there's actually some precedent for this. Nondetection. Core, 317, "If cast on a creature, nondetection wards the creature’s gear as well as the creature itself."
Mind blank does not include this.Best defence? (Yet another 8th level spell, making you need 2 days of prep time before you start pulling 1 efreet/day) Polymorph Any Object. Turn yourself into an animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant or vermin which causes all your gear to meld into you. Now they can't scry on your crap. (Note: might want to have eschew materials before doing this.) I'd recommend fire elemental, on the remote possibility that the efreet do find you. Or go to the plane of water, and be a water elemental, they probably won't want to come get you. Depending on what you select, you can easily get a duration of longer than 24 days.
We are talking about using literal interpretations to allow you to get 3 level 9 spells free from a level 6.
Using literal interpretations of Mind Blank to find you do not seem unreasonable. The spell doesn't say Caster or his possessions.
Tit for tat, and all that.
The exact spell description, in fact, says that it blocks information gathering by divination spells or effects. OF ANY KIND. No restrictions.
If it gets you information about the caster of ANY kind, it doesn't work. This includes Commune, Contact Other Plane. Including questions about your underwear, because that, shockingly enough, includes information about you. Otherwise, it wouldn't be yours.
... and spells that gather information about the target through divination magic ...About the target. ABOUT. Not "through spells targetting the target". If it gives you a shred of information about the wizard by divination magic, it doesn't work. You cant just ask "Where is the staff of Wizard X" and get around Mind Blank. You may get away with "Where is Narondil, Staff of Thunder", and get an answer (as long as he isn't holding it, equipment sharing his protections), but no amount of divination magic will reveal that this staff has anything to do with Frank the Wizard.
And thus, it will be next to impossible to relate that staff to Bob the Missing Efreeti.Thats what it says up there. You can interprete as you want, but thats the rules as written.
And on another, more fluff related note: If I am Talos the Destroyer, God of Storms, and you DARE to bother me about the stinking underwear of some upstart wizard, I am so going to flay you alive.
Mindblank has 1 target, and that target is whoever you select. Usually- Yourself.
It does not effect spells cast on anyone else for any purpose what so ever. It protects someone casting a spell. At. You.
If I cast a divination spell to reach an outsider then he is the target, not you. The spell doesn't suddenly fail because I ask a question about you. You aren't suddenly the target.
If I try to use a divination with you as the target then it fails. Otherwise, you are fair game. This is not a "Your name and likeness is erased from reality". This is a very specific spell, and you are the target. It is already very powerful- you aren't going to get the power expanded even more.
-S
My first goal would be to find out who did it. Finding out where they are is something different. I can commune on the Efreet to find out where it is or has been.
If the caster is in a demiplane it is probably his magnificent mansion spell. Using a wish to follow a creature to another plane in conjuction with another spell is not game breaking, and I would follow the Efreet.RAW says I can't divine against the caster in question. It does not protect other people which is what we are saying we are doing. It would make sense to eliminate the other suspects so you know who/what you are dealing with.
Even if it can be anywhere in the multiverse there are still only so many casters native to a setting that can do certain things so I am correct that the setting matters.
To be clear I was not asking which casters that are on the material plane can do X. I was asking about casters in the entire setting. Even if you go to a demiplane you are still in that setting.
Somewhere around 30 seconds after Bob the efreet goes missing, he is now in my gem via trap the soul. 6 seconds after that, he is part of my body via polymorph any object(cast on me to turn me into something else). I don't think commune/CoP can get info about part of my body while I am affected by mind blank.
You can wish to follow me to the demiplane I planeshifted to, I'll buy that. You show up some 9+minutes after I'm gone. My MMM or Rope Trick is gone. I'm no longer even on that plane.
If other people are able to cast mind blank, a lot of them probably have it up 24/7 as well. In fact, I'd say once a wizard has access to it, you probably won't see him without it ever again (barring being dispelled/anti magic field/etc). So only some wizards who can cast 8th level but chose to not get mind blank would be findable.
In terms of spell title, it seems to suggest that the spell blanks the person's mind not their existence. Therefore spells which identify the person's alignment or pin point their location would be stopped.
By the way, if the efreeti's know that you are wizard john and know what your underpants look like:
A) Your probably pretty hooped unless you spent the rest of your existence in hiding.
B) What the hell were you doing that the Efreetis know what your underpants look like???
I agree, if the efreeti's know your name, class, race and underpants, you are screwed.
See nondetection: I now agree mind blank only affects things directly you, and does not protect your underpants from scrying/other divinations. (Though, if they scryed them, they would just see an empty floating underpants, since you are hidden from view. I don't think this was the RAI of mind blank, but I do believe it to be the RAW).
You could also cast a nondetection. You could also cast misdirection on the gem trapping the efreeti to then target you. You having mind blank up, will block all spells targetting the efreeti also.
My first goal would be to find out who did it. Finding out where they are is something different. I can commune on the Efreet to find out where it is or has been.
If the caster is in a demiplane it is probably his magnificent mansion spell. Using a wish to follow a creature to another plane in conjuction with another spell is not game breaking, and I would follow the Efreet.RAW says I can't divine against the caster in question. It does not protect other people which is what we are saying we are doing. It would make sense to eliminate the other suspects so you know who/what you are dealing with.
Even if it can be anywhere in the multiverse there are still only so many casters native to a setting that can do certain things so I am correct that the setting matters.
To be clear I was not asking which casters that are on the material plane can do X. I was asking about casters in the entire setting. Even if you go to a demiplane you are still in that setting.
Somewhere around 30 seconds after Bob the efreet goes missing, he is now in my gem via trap the soul. 6 seconds after that, he is part of my body via polymorph any object(cast on me to turn me into something else). I don't think commune/CoP can get info about part of my body while I am affected by mind blank.
You can wish to follow me to the demiplane I planeshifted to, I'll buy that. You show up some 9+minutes after I'm gone. My MMM or Rope Trick is gone. I'm no longer even on that plane.
If other people are able to cast mind blank, a lot of them probably have it up 24/7 as well. In fact, I'd say once a wizard has access to it, you probably won't see him without it ever again (barring being dispelled/anti magic field/etc). So only some wizards who can cast 8th level but chose to not get mind blank would be findable.
How are you making an object into a part of your body? I need this one explained in detail. From my reading that is outside the use of the spell. You can turn into a troll, but it does make the gem/polymorphed object a part of you, nor can you make the gem into a third arm for your new troll form. Maybe the grafting feats from 3.5 might allow that, but I don't know of any grafting feats in pathfinder.
If you polymorph the gem it is also no longer a gem and does not qualify for the spell. The Effreti is free at that point and can just plane shift out of there.You don't know when to plane shift. Remember it will take time just to find out who you are. You I might not figure you who you are until you are in the middle of your 3rd planeshift. What is the 9 minute thing for anyway?
In theory a wizard might have mind blank up, but I have never seen it in a setting as a normal thing or an actual game so until it becomes the norm I don't think it can be counted as the norm.
Mindblank has 1 target, and that target is whoever you select. Usually- Yourself.It does not effect spells cast on anyone else for any purpose what so ever. It protects someone casting a spell. At. You.
If I cast a divination spell to reach an outsider then he is the target, not you. The spell doesn't suddenly fail because I ask a question about you. You aren't suddenly the target.
If I try to use a divination with you as the target then it fails. Otherwise, you are fair game. This is not a "Your name and likeness is erased from reality". This is a very specific spell, and you are the target. It is already very powerful- you aren't going to get the power expanded even more.
-S
Wrong. See Invisibility does not target the mind-blanked wizard, and is explicitly stopped by the spell description. As in, listed by name.
Mind Blank doesn't care whether you are the target of the divination spell. Nowhere does it suggest that - it is pure conjecture, and contrary to what one of the listed examples it wards against does.
It ALSO removes you from scrying results that target something else in your vicinity. It simply DOES NOT CARE about who is the target of what where divinations are concerned.
PRD:The subject is protected from all devices and spells that gather information about the target through divination magic.
Nobody is gathering information about the target of the mind blank. They are gathering information on other people. Now I do agree that I could not do something like target your possession to find out where they are in order to find you because it is directly related to you.
If I ask about Tim the necromancer down the street without mentioning you at all that is fair game though.
Say for example I find out you are 5 feet tall. I can then ask if Timmy is 5 ft tall. If I get an answer of no then Timmy is off of the suspect list.
If I get a yes or a nonanswer(mind blank prevents information gathering) then Timmy stays on the list. Timmy might have a mind blank up too for whatever reason.
I might later find out that kidnapper is not a necromancer though so that takes Timmy off the list.
Mindblank has 1 target, and that target is whoever you select. Usually- Yourself.It does not effect spells cast on anyone else for any purpose what so ever. It protects someone casting a spell. At. You.
If I cast a divination spell to reach an outsider then he is the target, not you. The spell doesn't suddenly fail because I ask a question about you. You aren't suddenly the target.
If I try to use a divination with you as the target then it fails. Otherwise, you are fair game. This is not a "Your name and likeness is erased from reality". This is a very specific spell, and you are the target. It is already very powerful- you aren't going to get the power expanded even more.
-S
Wrong. See Invisibility does not target the mind-blanked wizard, and is explicitly stopped by the spell description. As in, listed by name.
Mind Blank doesn't care whether you are the target of the divination spell. Nowhere does it suggest that - it is pure conjecture, and contrary to what one of the listed examples it wards against does.
It ALSO removes you from scrying results that target something else in your vicinity. It simply DOES NOT CARE about who is the target of what where divinations are concerned.
But Mind Blank does not stop me from casting a spell to ask someone a question about you. I'm casting a spell to contact them- you are not involved. The spell doesn't suddenly fail because I ask a question about you. I'm asking someone about their personal knowledge.
Mind Blank does not stop me from asking someone what they know about you. It stops me from targeting you with a spell. See Invisible, Detect magic or whatnot are emanations from me to you that Mind Blank would stop. Because the magical effect is touching you and your spell blocks it.
Your spell does not block me communicating with another creature to ask it where you are, what you are doing, have done, or whatever.
if I cast Blood Biography on a creature you killed, I'll still get the full complement of information for that spell- up to the knowledge of the person. (i.e. if you killed it from behind it may not have seen you/knew it was you etc). Speak with Dead is the same way. They are the target, their information is what I am asking.
You are not the target and the magic isn't touching or effecting or seeking the information from you therefore your spell does not block it.
Once again: Mind Blank is not a "I do not exist in the universe anymore" spell. It is a "you can't cast a spell at me to find me" spell. I can't use see invisiblity or arcane eyes or clairaudience/voyance to find you. I can summon a creature and set it to tracking you down or I can talk with someone else and ask them- like commune or contact other plane.
If Jim the Farmer saw you walk by and you had Mind Blank on, I can ask him- directly or with divination magic- if he saw you and he can answer me. Mind Blank Effects You. Not the World.
-S
My first goal would be to find out who did it. Finding out where they are is something different. I can commune on the Efreet to find out where it is or has been.Which still does not help you find the wizard unless he sleeps next to his binding circle.
If the caster is in a demiplane it is probably his magnificent mansion spell.You mean extradimensional space. Which could mean rope trick, portable hole, bag of holding, handy haversack...
Using a wish to follow a creature to another plane in conjuction with another spell is not game breaking, and I would follow the Efreet.
So far, I have still not seen a convincing method on finding the Efreeti in the first place, and in due time. Or at least a mapping method for the astral plane.
Or even worse... the plane of shadows:
"Magically Morphic: Parts of the Shadow Plane continually flow onto other planes. As a result, creating a precise map of the plane is next to impossible, despite the presence of landmarks."In other words, the entire Commune logarithm falls apart when you do it there.
RAW says I can't divine against the caster in question. It does not protect other people which is what we are saying we are doing. It would make sense to eliminate the other suspects so you know who/what you are dealing with.Which are probably mind blanked as well. Most wizards 15+ should be. I know mine are/would.
Even if it can be anywhere in the multiverse there are still only so many casters native to a setting that can do certain things so I am correct that the setting matters.
To be clear I was not asking which casters that are on the material plane can do X. I was asking about casters in the entire setting. Even if you go to a demiplane you are still in that setting.
Within Planescape, this includes, as a minor matter really, about 2 million rival Efreet only within the City of Brass.
I don't even want to know how many djinn, demons,...
Earlier I asked was the Efreeti(divining on the Efreet) kidnapped by race X. That takes care of the race.
The all wizards use mind blank was handled in the previous post.
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*shakes hand*
*hug* :)
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function).Now this one is pretty good. The problem now is that the soul gem does not provide a constant bonus(is not the same as a constant effect) so it does not continue to function, meaning it does not hold the Efreet anymore. I am assuming a volatile act against the Efreet starts combat. It is now the Efreet's turn and he plane shifts away, and becomes a tattle-tale.
Accept soul bind stipulates "Only by destroying the gem or dispelling the spell on the gem can one free the soul (which is then still dead)." Though it is not instantaneous, and is a Permanent spell. If the spell description didn't stipulate that only those 2 things could free the soul, I would say thats true. But really this is getting to a "interpertation vs RAI vs RAW" situation more and more.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function).Now this one is pretty good. The problem now is that the soul gem does not provide a constant bonus(is not the same as a constant effect) so it does not continue to function, meaning it does not hold the Efreet anymore. I am assuming a volatile act against the Efreet starts combat. It is now the Efreet's turn and he plane shifts away, and becomes a tattle-tale.
Yeah, but the issue now is that we have a conflicting rules issue, and each is a specific rule. I think this is a corner case meaning the rules as written don't cover it. We are now in DM fiat territory.
I do think I have an answer, but I have to go now. I will explain in the morn'.