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Actually, it is exactly what the text says.
Core, 362, "Trap the Soul
School conjuration (summoning); Level sorcerer/wizard 8
Casting Time 1 standard action or see text
Components V, S, M (gem worth 1,000 gp per HD of the
trapped creature)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one creature
Duration permanent; see text"
Emphasis mine.
You're ignoring the "see text" qualifer, and then in the text, you're also ignoring part of the clarification. You seem to be under the impression that "until the gem is broken" is the whole of the clarification, when in fact the whole clarification is "indefinitately, or until the gem is broken."
See above, the spell duration is listed as permanent, it is not an interpretation.
Note that "permanent" is only used under the duration heading, not in the descriptive text. When listed in the duration heading, it has a specific meaning ("the energy remains as long as the effect does.") In other words, the duration for which the energy remains to power the spell is tied to the duration for which the effect remains, it won't run out as long as the effect doesn't end by some other means. As clarified in the descriptive text, the duration of the effect is "indefinately, or until the gem is broken." As we've already established, although "permanent" is one of an infinite number of possible included time frames under "indefinate," it is not synonymous. Now, the second sentence under the permanent definition states, "This means the spell is vulnerable to dispel magic." There are a couple ways that can be interpreted. If one were to apply the same standard you're applying to Trap the Soul, then one could conclude that this means dispel magic is the only way to end a permanent spell. Alternatively, and equally valid, one could instead conclude that this is merely included to clarify the second line of the dispel magic spell, which states, "A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired," which could lead to some confusion wrt permanent spells, which don't expire on their own. Hey, it's not the first time that a word doesn't mean in D&D what it means in common language (just ask any geometry major why 10 cubic feet does not mean 10 cubic feet).
Not all spells with a duration other than instantaneous are susceptible to being dispelled. Antimagic field is a good example. Binding is another.
I think you misread me. I didn't say all spells with a duration other than instantaneous are suceptible to being dispelled. I said spells with any duration other than instantaneous are susceptibe to being dispelled. In other words, the only class of spells that cannot be dispelled are those with a duration of instantaneous. Some other specific spells are unable to be dispelled, but there aren't any other whole classes of spells that are immune, those that are are spell-specific.
Nightwish, you have not quoted the rules, I have. You state the rules do not list the duration of Trap the Soul to be permanent, they do. I have shown this above, and it is blatantly obvious in the spell's header section. I have offered multiple quotes of the rules to backup my position, to which your counter argument was that "indefinite" does not necessarily mean infinite. You chose to isolate a single word out of the entirety of the spell description and ignored the Duration specifically listed above.
I quoted the rules in some instances to comment on what they do say. Then I made some points about what the rules don't say in given sections. Are you now asking me to quote those entire sections just to prove to you that certain words and phrases don't appear in them? That's going to take up a lot of space. Are you sure that's what you want?
Your interpretation of trap the soul seems to be that because the spell doesn't specifically state that breaking the gem and dispel magic are the only methods to release the creature, there are others that you can make up.
Not exactly, but sort of. Rather, I'm saying that because the spell doesn't specifically state that breaking the gem and dispel magic are the only methods to release the creature (and because the chapters on spells and magic don't state that if an example solution is given in a spell description, that it must be held forth as the only possible solution), then the RAW does not invalidate the possibility that other workarounds might exist within a strict literal interpretation of RAW.
If I say I do the hokey-pokey and it frees all creatures in trap the soul gem's across the entire multiverse, do you say that works?
Apples and oranges. I'm talking about using a pre-existing spell doing what it is supposed to do as a possible workaround for another spell that doesn't specifically provide that it couldn't work. You're making a slippery slope fallacy (you should know, in debate, you're about as likely to sway somebody with a slippery slope argument as your are by invoking Godwin's Law) by making something up from whole cloth. However, if your DM goes for it, or if you're the DM and you can do that without having your entire group walk out because they think you've gone psychotic, what the heck, knock yourself out!
We are discussion the Rules As Written. As Written, the rules allow for breaking the gem, or a dispel magic to end the effect. The rules do not state anything else can end the effect. The only way for something other than breaking the gem or dispel magic to end the effect, is for that something to state it can.
Please cut and paste, or provide a page number where that rule is stated. And please don't try to pull the ol' "it isn't written anywhere, but everybody knows it, because that's the way everybody does it" fallacy, because we're not talking about whether it is common or even reasonable to make the interpretation that plane shift can be used to escape trap the soul, we're talking about whether RAW actually invalidates it. And as long as I'm on a kick about pointing out all the logical fallacies, there's another one right here (if A and B are contradictory arguments, it does not logically follow that a lack of evidence for A equals affirmative evidence for B - in other words, just because the spell does not state that there are other ways to end the spell, it does not logically follow that this means the spell is saying there are not any other ways to end the spell).
And here is a shocker for you, I think RAW actually does invalidate it, not from the reasoning you've been using, but rather from the spell descriptor. Trap the Soul is Conjuration (Summoning), the process of which involves the material body deforming then reforming in another location or state. Plane Shift is Conjuration (Teleportation), which is is accomplished through extraplanar movement, not through particle reformation. Thus if the body is deformed to be placed into the gem, a Plane Shift spell would not cause the body to reform (they might actually get out of the gem, but they'll still be a diffuse cloud of disparate particles incapable of becoming a whole being again short of something like wish, which they can't cast on themselves anyway - and that's assuming that while they are a diffuse cloud of disparate particles trapped inside the gem, that they'll actually retain intelligence and self-awareness and thus be able to even attempt a spell-like ability). There is your invalidation of a plane shift workaround, not the duration argument.
Not to get in the middle of this, but it won't matter until a 3rd method of ending the spell is mentioned. If a 3rd method was mentioned then I apologize in advance.
I can't believe I just did that*, but I had no better way to phrase it.
*People often say "not to ____", and they go ahead and do ______
Example: Not to be mean but if you think Linus is better than Windows you are an idiot.
Back on topic: Generally speaking the only way to end a permanent spell is with dispel magic or a method described in the entry. I don't think that always applies. It really depends upon the spell in question, and what other methods might be available.
PS: Another spell/affect that specifically says it counters the permanent spell will also work.
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I think it might also be possible to end the spell via a Conjuration (Calling) spell, such as Planar Binding, if you call the creature by name. Although I wouldn't allow a plane shift workaround in my game (and was only arguing it as an extreme interpretation), I would probably allow a planar binding workaround, treating the planar binding spell like dispel magic for the purposes of determining whether it succeeds or not. It is interesting to note that the Efreeti Bottle magic item, which is very similar in nature to the trap the soul gem, requires the spell planar binding, not trap the soul, to create. I'm not sure what, if anything, should be read into that wrt this discussion.
If one person is arguing an extreme case and the other is not then they are arguing two different things and may never come to an agreement.
I am not against extreme cases. They are useful to point out at times. It just seemed you two were not debating the same thing.
In any event I will go into lurker mode until I see more proof that Mr. Chain-binder can not be caught.
If one person is arguing an extreme case and the other is not then they are arguing two different things and may never come to an agreement.
I am not against extreme cases. They are useful to point out at times. It just seemed you two were not debating the same thing.
In any event I will go into lurker mode until I see more proof that Mr. Chain-binder can not be caught.
I'm not sure what you think can catch chain-binder, unless you still think a commune/CoP finding out "the efreet is in a bag of holding trapped in a trap the soul gem" can somehow lead someone to the person who did it.
Nightwish: Continue arguing the semantics of the word permanent. Unlimited is a valid definition of the word indefinite, and the spell duration is still permanent. If you disagree, fine, I'm done debating it. Go ask an english professor if you want.
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Nightwish: Continue arguing the semantics of the word permanent. Unlimited is a valid definition of the word indefinite, and the spell duration is still permanent. If you disagree, fine, I'm done debating it. Go ask an english professor if you want.
Since we both know that permanent does not mean that a spell can never end, only that it will never end of its own volition, and since you failed to cite any actual rule that says that if the spell description cites an example of a workaround but does't specify that it is the only workaround, that it must be interpreted as the only workaround, then I'm going to assume that you have found no such rule to present and that you were assuming incorrectly that there was such a rule.
I'm not sure what you think can catch chain-binder, unless you still think a commune/CoP finding out "the efreet is in a bag of holding trapped in a trap the soul gem" can somehow lead someone to the person who did it.
That depends on a number of things:
1. Can the commune/CoP spell locate which bag of holding the gem is in?
2. Can the commune/CoP spell locate where the bag of holding is?
3. If the bag of holding is melded into the body of a polymorphed and Mind-Blanked carrier, is it considered truly a part of the carrier such that it also is affected by Mind-Blank?
To decide if it is truly a part of the carrier for the purposes of determining if Mind Blank also protects the bag/gem, ask yourselves these questions: If the carrier has a type descriptor such as Good, Evil, Extraplanar, does the bag/gem also gain that type descriptor? If the carrier is subjected to an attack that deals extra damage to a creature of its type (such as Smite Evil), does the bag/gem also take the extra damage? If the answer is yes, then you can consider the bag as being truly a part of the carrier and thus protected from scrying or divinations by Mind Blank. If the answer is no, then divination spells can still target the bag/gem. If divination can reveal where those items are at, then mundane means can reveal who is carrying them.
I'm not sure what you think can catch chain-binder, unless you still think a commune/CoP finding out "the efreet is in a bag of holding trapped in a trap the soul gem" can somehow lead someone to the person who did it.That depends on a number of things:
1. Can the commune/CoP spell locate which bag of holding the gem is in?
2. Can the commune/CoP spell locate where the bag of holding is?
3. If the bag of holding is melded into the body of a polymorphed and Mind-Blanked carrier, is it considered truly a part of the carrier such that it also is affected by Mind-Blank?
To decide if it is truly a part of the carrier for the purposes of determining if Mind Blank also protects the bag/gem, ask yourselves these questions: If the carrier has a type descriptor such as Good, Evil, Extraplanar, does the bag/gem also gain that type descriptor? If the carrier is subjected to an attack that deals extra damage to a creature of its type (such as Smite Evil), does the bag/gem also take the extra damage? If the answer is yes, then you can consider the bag as being truly a part of the carrier and thus protected from scrying or divinations by Mind Blank. If the answer is no, then divination spells can still target the bag/gem. If divination can...
1) Good question, I think that you could find out that the efreet was in extradimensional space, that links to a bag of holding. I don't think you could find out which bag it links to.
2) If you don't know the bag, you can't find out where it is. If you knew the bag, I think you could narrow down where it was "is it on X plane, etc."
3) The bag is part of the person. You can't target the bag with anything, you can sunder it, you can't do damage to it, there is only the creature it is a part of.
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3) The bag is part of the person. You can't target the bag with anything, you can sunder it, you can't do damage to it, there is only the creature it is a part of.
Let's say the the creature either takes some kind of energy damage that would effect a creature but not an object, such as channeled negative energy. If the creature then reforms so that the bag is no longer melded with him, would the bag have sustained damage from the attack? If the bag became truly part of the creature (and thus, took on the creature's type and ceased to be an "object") then the reformed bag would have some damage to it, because the channeled energy permeates every part of the creature, including the part that was once the bag (and not subject to any object hardness, in part because its an energy effect, and in part because if it is no longer an object, it no longer has a hardness rating). If, on the other hand, the bag remains an object that is merely enveloped by the creature, and not a true part of the creature itself, then the bag will have sustained no damage, because even though the energy permeates everything in its area, and thus targets the bag by default, it does not deal damage to objects. If the bag took damage, then it could not be located due to Mind Blank. If the bag took no damage, then Mind Blank would not prevent it from being located (though the caster using commune/CoP not asking the right questions could).
Also, going back to the question of Mind Blank while planar binding, depending on which spells and effects the caster has up, if he has more than one abjuration spell up for 24 hours or more, then they will create a visible energy fluctuation which could be detected in an area scrying spell. This would also occur if he renews the Mind Blank without letting it drop at the end of 24 hours and he's wearing a ring of protection. And if the negotiations take more than 24 hours (chances are they will), then combinations of things like dimensional anchor, magic circle against evil, protection from energy, and so on, will create the same effect if they interact for more than 24 hours.
3) The bag is part of the person. You can't target the bag with anything, you can sunder it, you can't do damage to it, there is only the creature it is a part of.Let's say the the creature either takes some kind of energy damage that would effect a creature but not an object, such as channeled negative energy. If the creature then reforms so that the bag is no longer melded with him, would the bag have sustained damage from the attack? If the bag became truly part of the creature (and thus, took on the creature's type and ceased to be an "object") then the reformed bag would have some damage to it, because the channeled energy permeates every part of the creature, including the part that was once the bag (and not subject to any object hardness, in part because its an energy effect, and in part because if it is no longer an object, it no longer has a hardness rating). If, on the other hand, the bag remains an object that is merely enveloped by the creature, and not a true part of the creature itself, then the bag will have sustained no damage, because even though the energy permeates everything in its area, and thus targets the bag by default, it does not deal damage to objects. If the bag took damage, then it could not be located due to Mind Blank. If the bag took no damage, then Mind Blank would not prevent it from being located (though the caster using commune/CoP not asking the right questions could).
No rules state that melded objects take damage, therefore, they do not.
I can see why "melds into your body" could be taken that the item still exists, but completely enveloped by the body (except for when you change into say, a tiny creature). Since you can turn into a tiny creature without a greatsword sticking out of you, I think the items do physically change into parts of the new body.
Also, going back to the question of Mind Blank while planar binding, depending on which spells and effects the caster has up, if he has more than one abjuration spell up for 24 hours or more, then they will create a visible energy fluctuation which could be detected in an area scrying spell. This would also occur if he renews the Mind Blank without letting it drop at the end of 24 hours and he's wearing a ring of protection. And if the negotiations take more than 24 hours (chances are they will), then combinations of things like dimensional anchor, magic circle against evil, protection from energy, and so on, will create the same effect if they interact for more than 24 hours.
No idea what you are talking about here. Rules quote?
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No idea what you are talking about here. Rules quote?
Pg. 209, Core Rulebook, under the Abjuration heading: "If one abjuration spell is active within 10 feet of another for 24 hours or more, the magical fields interfere with each other and create barely visible energy fluctuations. The DC to find such spells with the Perception skill drops by 4."
Also, going back to the question of Mind Blank while planar binding, depending on which spells and effects the caster has up, if he has more than one abjuration spell up for 24 hours or more, then they will create a visible energy fluctuation which could be detected in an area scrying spell. This would also occur if he renews the Mind Blank without letting it drop at the end of 24 hours and he's wearing a ring of protection. And if the negotiations take more than 24 hours (chances are they will), then combinations of things like dimensional anchor, magic circle against evil, protection from energy, and so on, will create the same effect if they interact for more than 24 hours.
The creature isn't detected. Period. All multiple abjuration spells do together is drop the DC to perceive it by 4.
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The creature isn't detected. Period. All multiple abjuration spells do together is drop the DC to perceive it by 4.
It wouldn't reveal the creature, but it may reveal that someone or something is there that is deliberately cloaking itself from detection. If a creature is scrying an area and doesn't see a creature, but sees a walking or moving energy fluctuation, or even a stationary one that shouldn't be there, it will raise some eyebrows. After all, we're not talking about stupid creatures here. It will give an added degree of difficulty to the caster to stay undetectable for long periods of time, and an added degree of ease for a tracking creature to find him.
It wouldn't reveal the creature, but it may reveal that someone or something is there that is deliberately cloaking itself from detection. If a creature is scrying an area and doesn't see a creature, but sees a walking or moving energy fluctuation, or even a stationary one that shouldn't be there, it will raise some eyebrows. After all, we're not talking about stupid creatures here. It will give an added degree of difficulty to the caster to stay undetectable for long periods of time, and an added degree of ease for a tracking creature to find him.
It doesn't create an effect you can see. It reduces the difficulty of seeing the person. You cannot see them with mind blank up. Regardless of if the difficulty is 0 or 8 million.
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The creature isn't detected. Period. All multiple abjuration spells do together is drop the DC to perceive it by 4.
It wouldn't reveal the creature, but it may reveal that someone or something is there that is deliberately cloaking itself from detection. If a creature is scrying an area and doesn't see a creature, but sees a walking or moving energy fluctuation, or even a stationary one that shouldn't be there, it will raise some eyebrows. After all, we're not talking about stupid creatures here. It will give an added degree of difficulty to the caster to stay undetectable for long periods of time, and an added degree of ease for a tracking creature to find him.
Nightwish, do you read what you cite?
Pg. 209, Core Rulebook, under the Abjuration heading: "If one abjuration spell is active within 10 feet of another for 24 hours or more, the magical fields interfere with each other and create barely visible energy fluctuations. The DC to find such spells with the Perception skill drops by 4."
Not the difficulty to find the guy under such spell, but the difficulty to find the spell.
You don't get body shaped energy fluctuations running around. You get barely discernible effects like the image distortion done by heat waves at best.
BTW: protections rings aren't abjuration spells, nor other permanent magical items unless they are a spell effect in the description.
A ring with a constant protection from evil effect would be affected, a +1 deflection ring won't.
Then there is the little point that the same spells should be within 10 feet for for 24 hours, not 2 similar spells.
A new casting of Mind blank is a new spell, so you need to wait 24 hours before it interfere with other spells.
Probably that rule was written to give people a better chance to notice static, permanent or semi permanent, abjuration effects, but that is arguing ROI.
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A question, why you guys are arguing like the worn equipment of someone under Mind blank wasn't protected by mind blank?
There has been some attempt to say that the protection don't extend to the equipment but that is silly.
If you accept that ruling, every spell with "one (or more) creature(s)" as a target would affect only the naked body of the creature.
So Protection from energy, Resist energy and so on would affect only the body of the target, not his equipment, Sanctuary would allow attacker to sunder your equipment and so on.
Really someone want to support this line of thought?
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It doesn't create an effect you can see.
Actually, it specifically states that it creates an effect you can see. Barely visible still means visible.
Nightwish, do you read what you cite?
Yes I do. Do you actually read what you're commenting on, that's the question. This isn't the first time you've done so in this thread, so you should really start working on that.
Not the difficulty to find the guy under such spell, but the difficulty to find the spell.
Care to quote where I said it would find the guy under the spell? No, I said it could allow a scrying creature to detect that there is a spell-caused anomaly in the area.
You don't get body shaped energy fluctuations running around. You get barely discernible effects like the image distortion done by heat waves at best.
What shape the fluctuations take is irrelevant. The fluctuation occurs where the fields interact. If one field, such as that created by a ring of protection, is shaped to the wearer, and it interacts with an area field, then it could certainly create a body-shaped fluctuation.
BTW: protections rings aren't abjuration spells, nor other permanent magical items unless they are a spell effect in the description.
It's an item that utilizes an abjuration spell and creates an abjuration field. The abjuration field, not the spell itself, is the operative factor.
Then there is the little point that the same spells should be within 10 feet for for 24 hours, not 2 similar spells.
A new casting of Mind blank is a new spell, so you need to wait 24 hours before it interfere with other spells.
If it is renewed before it is dropped, it simply extends the duration of the existing field. It doesn't qualify as a new field that invalidates the old one. If it drops and is then recast, then yes, it's a new field.
A question, why you guys are arguing like the worn equipment of someone under Mind blank wasn't protected by mind blank?
There has been some attempt to say that the protection don't extend to the equipment but that is silly.
If you accept that ruling, every spell with "one (or more) creature(s)" as a target would affect only the naked body of the creature.
So Protection from energy, Resist energy and so on would affect only the body of the target, not his equipment, Sanctuary would allow attacker to sunder your equipment and so on.
Who exactly has made that argument? Wraithstrike and I have both asked questions about it, but asking a question is not making an argument. Who has made the argument?
...A question, why you guys are arguing like the worn equipment of someone under Mind blank wasn't protected by mind blank?
There has been some attempt to say that the protection don't extend to the equipment but that is silly.
If you accept that ruling, every spell with "one (or more) creature(s)" as a target would affect only the naked body of the creature.
So Protection from energy, Resist energy and so on would affect only the body of the target, not his equipment, Sanctuary would allow attacker to sunder your equipment and so on.
Who exactly has made that argument? Wraithstrike and I have both asked questions about it, but asking a question is not making an argument. Who has made the argument?
You've all made this argument. I'm not just talking about personal gear that may or may not remain visable under unusual circumstances. I'm talking about this huge post war. If I'm trying to scry on someones scrying device, that they do not ever wear, and I notice a distortion in the room, it could be a ghost, or an artifact, or a permanant illusion that is part of a trap. It might be a bench that some nut made invisable. You will probably attract more Spinx than Inevitables.
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You've all made this argument. I'm not just talking about personal gear that may or may not remain visable under unusual circumstances. I'm talking about this huge post war. If I'm trying to scry on someones scrying device, that they do not ever wear, and I notice a distortion in the room, it could be a ghost, or an artifact, or a permanant illusion that is part of a trap. It might be a bench that some nut made invisable. You will probably attract more Spinx than Inevitables.
A lot of things could be a lot of things. If you want to play the "it could be" game, this thread can go on for hundreds more pages, and it won't change my point one iota - the point being that it adds another thorn to the "I can get away with this and never, ever possibly be detected under any circumstances" argument.
If one person is arguing an extreme case and the other is not then they are arguing two different things and may never come to an agreement.
I am not against extreme cases. They are useful to point out at times. It just seemed you two were not debating the same thing.
In any event I will go into lurker mode until I see more proof that Mr. Chain-binder can not be caught.
I'm not sure what you think can catch chain-binder, unless you still think a commune/CoP finding out "the efreet is in a bag of holding trapped in a trap the soul gem" can somehow lead someone to the person who did it.
Nightwish: Continue arguing the semantics of the word permanent. Unlimited is a valid definition of the word indefinite, and the spell duration is still permanent. If you disagree, fine, I'm done debating it. Go ask an english professor if you want.
I eliminated the other possible suspects. There are only so many casters that have that power level. How I eliminated them is posted throughout this thread.
There are only so many ways to create extradimensional spaces. All you have to do is try to catch the guy yourself to find ways to do it instead of assume it can't be done. It takes another being of high power to do so, but the argument is whether or not it can be done.
I eliminated the other possible suspects. There are only so many casters that have that power level. How I eliminated them is posted throughout this thread.
There are only so many ways to create extradimensional spaces. All you have to do is try to catch the guy yourself to find ways to do it instead of assume it can't be done. It takes another being of high power to do so, but the argument is whether or not it can be done.
I'm sorry, I still don't buy that you'll get any workable answer out of asking how many creatures are able to do this. 15, 20, 50, 1000, 10,000,000? Its all up to the GM. If your world you're the only 16th level caster, then a big maybe. if you're in a big multiverse where there are millions of similarly powered beings, no.
Nightwish: Can you point me to the rules that say you can use perception to see abjuration effects? What is the DC normally if there has only been one effect for the past 24 hours? Quote it please.
Maybe it can be done, but maybe it shouldn't.
The caster is turning into some unasuming animal and some preditor is going to kill him before he has a chance to turn back. Then an Effretti teamed up with an Inevitable will waste years tracking down the wizard only to find an animal carcass. The game world will have gone on around them.
There are stories where someone catches a fish or something and finds a stone inside that grants wishes. This is how such things happen.
Maybe it can be done, but maybe it shouldn't.
The caster is turning into some unasuming animal and some preditor is going to kill him before he has a chance to turn back. Then an Effretti teamed up with an Inevitable will waste years tracking down the wizard only to find an animal carcass. The game world will have gone on around them.
There are stories where someone catches a fish or something and finds a stone inside that grants wishes. This is how such things happen.
Just to clarify; The caster is 16th level. The caster would most intelligently change into a dragon (maintaining his spellcasting abilities) and would also probably be staying in extra-dimensional spaces (such as MMM and rope tricks) simply to make it that much harder for him to be found while the heat is on. Not sure if you missed that. Not sure what kind of random predator would climb up a rope trick/notice the invisibility on the MMM and walk on in. Plenty of other protections are possible as well (glyphs on the door of the MMM, etc).
I eliminated the other possible suspects. There are only so many casters that have that power level. How I eliminated them is posted throughout this thread.
There are only so many ways to create extradimensional spaces. All you have to do is try to catch the guy yourself to find ways to do it instead of assume it can't be done. It takes another being of high power to do so, but the argument is whether or not it can be done.I'm sorry, I still don't buy that you'll get any workable answer out of asking how many creatures are able to do this. 15, 20, 50, 1000, 10,000,000? Its all up to the GM. If your world you're the only 16th level caster, then a big maybe. if you're in a big multiverse where there are millions of similarly powered beings, no.
Nightwish: Can you point me to the rules that say you can use perception to see abjuration effects? What is the DC normally if there has only been one effect for the past 24 hours? Quote it please.
Since the DM is the one deciding how many there are he will most likely make a sensible number. 10,000,000 is not a sensible number for that level caster.
The yes/no tactic works quiet well with multiple casters.
I will repeat examples:
Forgotten Realms has a good number of high level NPC's so it may take a while.
Eberron and Golarion do not. You are hard pressed to find anyone above 10th level in Eberron. They exist, but they are less than 15 of them that are humanoid anyway.
Golarion's NPC's are in the same power level.
For homebrews the DM will have to decide for his world, and your DM point was a point against yourself. The reason for this exercise is to see if the DM could stop the chainbinding without resorting to "because I said so".
It was also agreed that finding the race would be possible.
Basically paperwork and divining on other people has less to the elimination of the other suspects. The only argument left was that the trap the soul made you a part of the gem, but there is no quote that supports that in the rules. The rules only support you being trapped within the gem which does not stop divining.
PS:I realize you came to the thread later, and you don't want to reread the entire thing, but I am not going to repeat previously made points for every new poster. I am not upset, but this is getting tiring to have to keep repeating the same thing. We(not me and you) already agreed on the finite caster number being reasonable earlier in the post.
As I see things the caster is found since there are only so many of a certain level.
It is not a matter of time, but when. Remember he is chain-binding and I agreed he gets away with the first one, now things are not so easy.
The adventures of this wizard and his persuers might make an interesting read in a novelization for some people. If you want to hold your audiance, the wizard must, at some point, make a stand against his persuers. For a module you might have some characters come opon the hiding place of the dragon, now having trouble remembering when he was a wizard over a thousand years ago. His persuers, likewise, are worn and bedragled. Maybe the Efretti is a decendant of the one tasked to give chase.
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Nightwish: Can you point me to the rules that say you can use perception to see abjuration effects? What is the DC normally if there has only been one effect for the past 24 hours? Quote it please.
Depends on the spell. Some abjuration spells are detectable with Perception, such as glyphs and wards. The DC to find them is usually 25 + spell level. As quoted earlier, though, the effect of two abjuration fields interacting creates a fluctuation that is potentially visible to anyone, though the entry doesn't specify the DC in those cases, as I suspect it would be dependent upon several variables, such as distance, level of lighting, and so on, as outlined under the Perception skill. For those ajuration spells that can normally be found with Perception, this fluctuation makes them easier to locate.
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So... You assume that you can search for traps through a scrying spell.
Of course you can, as long as it's a trap that can be located by sight alone (such as a glyph of warding). Through most scrying spells, you are able to perceive as well as if you were there in person, your Perception is fully functional, including any magical or supernatural enhancements to your sight or perception (the Clairaudience/Clairvoyance spell being the exception to that rule).
AND assume that you actually have a nearby creature to scry on,
Most scrying spells don't require that a creature be the target. You can scry areas, too. Some of them even have movable sensors.
AND that visibility is good enough to see all that much.
Visibility isn't necessarily the impediment you think it is. If a scryer has darkvision, a darkness or deeper darkness spell isn't going to impede them much. If the scryer is also using arcane eye, the wall of fog won't impede them terribly, since the eye can move and can see things within five feet.
You are aware that you cannot scry objects, right?
In some cases, an object may not be able to be targeted for scrying, but they can certainly be viewed through a scrying that targets something or someone in the area. And the language of the Obscure Object spell seems to suggest they can even be the target of scrying spells.
By the way, did you realize that Mind Blank does allow a saving throw?
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Nightwish, do you read what you cite?
Yes I do. Do you actually read what you're commenting on, that's the question. This isn't the first time you've done so in this thread, so you should really start working on that.
Not the difficulty to find the guy under such spell, but the difficulty to find the spell.
Care to quote where I said it would find the guy under the spell? No, I said it could allow a scrying creature to detect that there is a spell-caused anomaly in the area.
You don't get body shaped energy fluctuations running around. You get barely discernible effects like the image distortion done by heat waves at best.
"What shape the fluctuations take is irrelevant. The fluctuation occurs where the fields interact. If one field, such as that created by a ring of protection, is shaped to the wearer, and it interacts with an area field, then it could certainly create a body-shaped fluctuation.
The creature isn't detected. Period. All multiple abjuration spells do together is drop the DC to perceive it by 4.
It wouldn't reveal the creature, but it may reveal that someone or something is there that is deliberately cloaking itself from detection. If a creature is scrying an area and doesn't see a creature, but sees a walking or moving energy fluctuation, or even a stationary one that shouldn't be there, it will raise some eyebrows. After all, we're not talking about stupid creatures here. It will give an added degree of difficulty to the caster to stay undetectable for long periods of time, and an added degree of ease for a tracking creature to find him.
You are good at weaselling but the above quotes say that:
1) the aspect of the field is relevant. A human body shaped field is very different from a dragon body shaped field.
2) In your cited post the field give away the location of the caster, if he is stationary or not. So in your reasoning it point to the caster position, not simply to two or more abjuration spells field interacting.
Knowing the position of someone is finding him.
BTW: protections rings aren't abjuration spells, nor other permanent magical items unless they are a spell effect in the description.
It's an item that utilizes an abjuration spell and creates an abjuration field. The abjuration field, not the spell itself, is the operative factor.
You play ROI and RAW as it become more useful to shore your position.
RAW it say spell. Point.
Then there is the little point that the same spells should be within 10 feet for for 24 hours, not 2 similar spells.
A new casting of Mind blank is a new spell, so you need to wait 24 hours before it interfere with other spells.
If it is renewed before it is dropped, it simply extends the duration of the existing field. It doesn't qualify as a new field that invalidates the old one. If it drops and is then recast, then yes, it's a new field.
Nice theory, but again non RAW. A caster can't renew the same Mage Magnificent Mansion casting again before the duration end.
Unless a spell specify that that it can be renewed with another casting of the same spell you are casting a new spell, not renewing the old one.
Can you quote a rule about "casting a spell renew a a already cast spell"?
A question, why you guys are arguing like the worn equipment of someone under Mind blank wasn't protected by mind blank?
Who exactly has made that argument? Wraithstrike and I have both asked questions about it, but asking a question is not making an argument. Who has made the argument?
Ok, let's say it is a simple misunderstanding on your part and make it clearer. (note that it was aimed at several posters in this thread)
Some of you guys are arguing MIND BLANK as if its effect were limited to the naked body of the person under the spell effect.
Arguing about (paraphrased) "a gem in his pocket would not be affected by mind blank and would not be protected again scrying".
It is decidedly silly (even if the rules effectively don't define if your worn gear is affected or not) as applying that interpretation of the rules would have the gear of people under Resist energy (and similar spells) totally unprotected.
Similarly when using see invisibility against a invisible guy under Mind blank you would be seeing all his gear(Mind blank block see invisibility).
Note that, with my interpretation that the gear is protected, a gem in a portable hole would be detectable as it is not on the body of the caster but in a extradimensional space. It would not be possible to detect the location of the portable hole.
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Nightwish: Can you point me to the rules that say you can use perception to see abjuration effects? What is the DC normally if there has only been one effect for the past 24 hours? Quote it please.
AFAIK there isn't a specific rule, I would use this kind of rules as a guideline:
Perception: Find a hidden trap
glyph of warding and other similar spells (note that GoW is an abjuration)
Note: Magic traps such as glyph of warding are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Perception skill to find the glyph and Disable Device to thwart it. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 28 for glyph of warding.
So, apparently, only a rogue can detect 2 abjuration fields interacting.
With a more liberal interpretation a non rogue could detect 2 (or more) fields interacting with the same kind of DC and the cited bonus.
In both the guy would be actively using perception to find a clue, not casually noticing them.
It is possible there is some rule I have missed and mine is only an interpretation.
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Since the DM is the one deciding how many there are he will most likely make a sensible number. 10,000,000 is not a sensible number for that level caster.The yes/no tactic works quiet well with multiple casters.
...
Golarion's NPC's are in the same power level.
I haven't jet seen how you are dismissing all the other spellcaster in the Glorarion multi-universe.
In Pathfinder Chronicles we have the description of an area that is similar to Europe + Nothen Africa + Near Eest.
There is almost nothing about the high level population of the territories, so we go to Gamemastery guide.
There every city with more than 25.000 habitants has access to spellcasters capable to casting 8th level spells. As the services are for indeterminate spells I would hypothesize 1 arcane and 1 divine caster in each city.
Rapid check: In the inner sea region I have counted 35 cities with a population 25.000+ (with a maximum number of habitants of 303.000 in Absalom).
That is at least 70 well know spellcasters that sell their services for gold.
Add all the guys that will not sell their services, the head of the hidden cults and cabals, the non humanoid spellcasters and you already have several hundred spellcasters of level 15+. We can use a relatively small number and say a total of 150 (I think it is too small, but for this analysis I am keeping the number low).
Add the other continents (I think the inner sea is no more than 1/5 of the whole world earth mass). We get already at least 700 guys.
And we are still dismissing a lot of spellcasting creatures, from the drow casters to the sleeping snakemen that Eando has found.
Let's enlarge our area of search a bit and look the solar system, detailed in Into the black, PA 14. 11 planets with at least 5 of them (or their moons) inhabitated.
Now we have a minimum of 3.500 spellcasters capable of the feat in the solar system.
But Golarion history point to visit from people born in other systems. So how many similar system there are in the universe?
Then we have 4 elemental planes, the positive plane, the negative, ethereal plane, astral plane and a lot of of outer planes, plus demiplanes.
You can try a exclusion system but as, against a Mind Blanked caster you can't ask "The culprit has a name starting with a letter from a to m" you need to remove the caster one after another.
Even if you had the names of all the 350 know casters on the planet you have still uncountable number on other planets, unknown to you and so on and so forth.
Asking 350 questions with Commune/Contact other planes would be even worse.
If the average caster doing the search is 14° level it mean 25 Commune. Beside the 12.500 GP cost, I, playing my role as a deity receiving 350 questions about "Caster X has abducted Bob the efreeti?" would get very cross.
After the first 2-3 casting of the spell my reply would be to remove the capability to cast the spell for a month to every caster trying this stunt.
Doing the same thing with contact other panes would get even worse results. You aren't even a follower of the entity contacted. After the first casting I would steadily decrease the chance of success when the same entity is contacted. After some repetition the outsider contacted could even organize a "visit" to the spellcaster by some guys with heavy clubs.
It was also agreed that finding the race would be possible.No. At best, you can make a somewhat grounded guess.
And you are still on about the limited numbers of casters. You do realize that even in Eberron, there are QUITE a few beings capable of things like this? Few run around on Khorvaire, but the dragons, the Undying Court and many, many outsiders still exist and have the potential to do things like this.
Including, still, other Efreet.
<sighs> I guess I do have to repeat everything. There is a way around that. It is fairly simple also. If you don't have it figured out or you have not found it I will type it again. The answer is in this thread. If you don't want to search the thread then the same method I used to find eliminate the suspects also cuts this number down by quiet a bit. It is one of the first steps to cutting the number down. I am choosing to address things this way because if you understand the way I am using the yes/no system it will keep me from having to keep answering the same questions again.
If you have not found the answer I might go ahead and explain it again.
Since the DM is the one deciding how many there are he will most likely make a sensible number. 10,000,000 is not a sensible number for that level caster.The yes/no tactic works quiet well with multiple casters.
...
Golarion's NPC's are in the same power level.
I haven't jet seen how you are dismissing all the other spellcaster in the Glorarion multi-universe.
In Pathfinder Chronicles we have the description of an area that is similar to Europe + Nothen Africa + Near Eest.
There is almost nothing about the high level population of the territories, so we go to Gamemastery guide.
There every city with more than 25.000 habitants has access to spellcasters capable to casting 8th level spells. As the services are for indeterminate spells I would hypothesize 1 arcane and 1 divine caster in each city.Rapid check: In the inner sea region I have counted 35 cities with a population 25.000+ (with a maximum number of habitants of 303.000 in Absalom).
That is at least 70 well know spellcasters that sell their services for gold.
Add all the guys that will not sell their services, the head of the hidden cults and cabals, the non humanoid spellcasters and you already have several hundred spellcasters of level 15+. We can use a relatively small number and say a total of 150 (I think it is too small, but for this analysis I am keeping the number low).Add the other continents (I think the inner sea is no more than 1/5 of the whole world earth mass). We get already at least 700 guys.
And we are still dismissing a lot of spellcasting creatures, from the drow casters to the sleeping snakemen that Eando has found.
Let's enlarge our area of search a bit and look the solar system, detailed in Into the black, PA 14. 11 planets with at least 5 of them (or their moons) inhabitated.
Now we have a minimum of 3.500 spellcasters capable of the feat in the solar system.
But Golarion history point to visit from people born in other systems. So how...
James has said there are a limited number of high level casters. This subject came up because Pathfinder has an NPC book, and I inquired about NPC's above level 13 since those were the ones that took the most time for us DM's to make.
wraithstrike wrote:Do the character levels go from 1 to 20?
Nope; they skew toward the low and mid level ranges. High level NPCs are generally specific individuals who rule nations or otherwise have big footprints; they thus have very little "replay" value. The NPCs in this book are intended to be used and reused in the same way the monsters in a Bestiary are.In fact, just flipped through the book and there are VERY few NPCs above 9th level in the book.
Big foot prints seems to equate to well known. That just makes them easier to find.
Note that I asked about characters, and did not even limit it to casters, which makes the list even smaller for casters.
It was also agreed that finding the race would be possible.No. At best, you can make a somewhat grounded guess.
And you are still on about the limited numbers of casters. You do realize that even in Eberron, there are QUITE a few beings capable of things like this? Few run around on Khorvaire, but the dragons, the Undying Court and many, many outsiders still exist and have the potential to do things like this.
Including, still, other Efreet.
Tarantula I can understand asking certain question. We have been through this already. The yes/no thing applies to race etc.... also. I am sure you can see where this is going. If not it is back on previous pages.
It was also agreed that finding the race would be possible.No. At best, you can make a somewhat grounded guess.
And you are still on about the limited numbers of casters. You do realize that even in Eberron, there are QUITE a few beings capable of things like this? Few run around on Khorvaire, but the dragons, the Undying Court and many, many outsiders still exist and have the potential to do things like this.
Including, still, other Efreet.
<sighs> I guess I do have to repeat everything. There is a way around that. It is fairly simple also. If you don't have it figured out or you have not found it I will type it again. The answer is in this thread. If you don't want to search the thread then the same method I used to find eliminate the suspects also cuts this number down by quiet a bit. It is one of the first steps to cutting the number down. I am choosing to address things this way because if you understand the way I am using the yes/no system it will keep me from having to keep answering the same questions again.
If you have not found the answer I might go ahead and explain it again.
Gods are still not omniscient, nor do they necessarily care. The spell itself already explains its intent to "aid in decisions", a wonderful built-in limitation.
And you still can't ask "Has a human done this?" and expect any answer aside from "Unclear".
CoP was mentioned also, but I said it was more risky so it is better to use commune. 80 chance. Mundane knowledge checks can get you a decent list of names if we are using Golarion.
CoP was mentioned also, but I said it was more risky so it is better to use commune. 80 chance. Mundane knowledge checks can get you a decent list of names if we are using Golarion.CoP is too unreliable to really, well, rely on the information gained.
But no, mundane knowledge checks aren't as simple because as demonstrated above, the list of possible culprits is far more massive than you are willing to admit.
I don't think in any campaign world you have 15 level humanoids just running around that cast spells that have not done anything of note.
An 80 percent chance that can be crossed checked by several casters are really good odds. The chances of humans(assuming Bob is a human) showing up as no when the answer is yes the majority of the time is mathematically abysmal if the spell is run several times.
I think we should go be likely to happen as opposed to arguing what is least likely to happen. Right now the chances of a spell with an 80 chance not working is trying to argue for the least likely chance unless you can explain to me how a cross-check 80% chance is most likely to give me the wrong answer.
If we go by least likely to happen the one kidnapped Efreeti is related to the one CR 27 Efreeti who is willing to risk planar evasion or the Effreet in said campaign world have an anti-wish contingency in plan so the issue is already solved before it begins.
CoP was mentioned also, but I said it was more risky so it is better to use commune. 80 chance. Mundane knowledge checks can get you a decent list of names if we are using Golarion.CoP is too unreliable to really, well, rely on the information gained.
But no, mundane knowledge checks aren't as simple because as demonstrated above, the list of possible culprits is far more massive than you are willing to admit.
According to James who I quoted it supports my idea that the campaign world matters.
Eberron has about 5 printed NPC's that are humanoid that could pull this one and 1 of them would not do it anyway.
FR makes things harder, but not impossible.
Wraithstrike, you still completely ignore the fact that you don't know whether it was a human in the first place, and have no reliable way of finding out. ESPECIALLY not Contact Other Plane, which will fry your brain for a week or two if overdone.
Just because Eberron only has 5 NPC's listed does not mean there are only 5 NPCs. Same for Golarion, or FR, or any other world. Eberron has less high level characters on average, yes. It doesn't only have the listed ones. In fact, the Gamemastery Guide that was referenced a few posts ago explains rather well how many high level caster you have to take as a given minimum unless the world differs from Pathfinder Core - Unlikely for Golarion.
And even then... So he's not human. Its a dragon dressing up as an elf. Or a Drow Wizard recolouring to elf. Or a lich. Or a rival Efreeti.
I'm still waiting for that perfect set of questions reducing it down to 5 people and making SURE its only those 5 people.
I handled the brain fry earlier also. I am starting to think you just ignored my previous post. My answer to that was a limited wish or wish to give enough of a bonus to make the DC on less than a 5.
Actually Eberron does only have 5ish unless the DM has more for his campaign world. James, whom I quoted, has said that all high level guys have big foot prints. -->Mundane knowledge checksDidn't I just handle the race thing with commune/CoP.
You already know how I am going to do the yes/no thing. The past 3 or 4 post have been me reposting what I said earlier. I am refusing to go another full explanation of information that is already in the post.
Since you already know how I am going to do the yes/no question thing, it is a waste of time for me to repost it. Pretend you are trying to find the caster by asking yes/no questions. If you get stuck somewhere let me know. I would suggest start broad and then be more specific.
Nightwish: Can you point me to the rules that say you can use perception to see abjuration effects? What is the DC normally if there has only been one effect for the past 24 hours? Quote it please.Depends on the spell. Some abjuration spells are detectable with Perception, such as glyphs and wards. The DC to find them is usually 25 + spell level. As quoted earlier, though, the effect of two abjuration fields interacting creates a fluctuation that is potentially visible to anyone, though the entry doesn't specify the DC in those cases, as I suspect it would be dependent upon several variables, such as distance, level of lighting, and so on, as outlined under the Perception skill. For those ajuration spells that can normally be found with Perception, this fluctuation makes them easier to locate.So... You assume that you can search for traps through a scrying spell. AND assume that you actually have a nearby creature to scry on, AND that visibility is good enough to see all that much.
You are aware that you cannot scry objects, right?
I wasn't.
Wasn't there a kind of scrying beacon magic item in 3.5?I did a search, and it just gives a bonus on the target this was cast on. Unless you design an insect attracted to strong abjuration that radiates Scrying Beacon, you should let go of this bone of contention.
Didn't I just handle the race thing with commune/CoP.
You already know how I am going to do the yes/no thing. The past 3 or 4 post have been me reposting what I said earlier. I am refusing to go another full explanation of information that is already in the post.
Since you already know how I am going to do the yes/no question thing, it is a waste of time for me to repost it. Pretend you are trying to find the caster by asking yes/no questions. If you get stuck somewhere let me know. I would suggest start broad and then be more specific.
You haven't handled the race thing. You said you could do it. You have not given examples. What questions would you ask with CoP to find out why Bob the Efreet and his 5 buddies have disappeared. The information you currently have is that they have disappeared, one a day for the last 5 days.
In this spoiler, I will list where the wizard currently is, in what form, and what spells he has up. If your questions seem to be too specific, I'll assume you've read the spoiler and are metagaming. Remember, you get 1 word answers from your questions, please post the answer you think you would get (yes, no, maybe, never, irrelevant etc).
Elfy the Elven wizard 16th level
Efreets are Trap the Souled in 5 gems, which have been placed in a bag of holding 1. To begin this test, Elfy legend lored/scryed/divinated/communed/CoPed out 5 Efreet, Bob, Jim, Joe, Moe, and Curly. They are all generic HD10 efreet out of the monster manual, with no special connections.
Day 1:
Elfy started out with a trap the soul made specially for Bob with a trigger object. He then casts sympathy on the trigger object for efreet. He also casts Mind Blank for this day. He sleeps in a rope trick and gets spells back.
Day 2:
First he starts with a new mind blank. Since sympathy lasts for 32 hours at his level, he's still good there. He leaves his rope trick, picks a random demiplane, casts planar adaptation then plane shift. He puts down Bob's trigger object and gem, along with a bag of holding 1 and Polymorph any object's himself into a Brass Dragon. He then casts MMM and Moment of Prescience. He starts creating his circle against evil, taking 20 (3hrs 20minutes). He throws a dimensional anchor on it, then planar binding for Bob the Efreet. He offers Bob the sympathized trigger object in exchange for Bob's 3 wishes for the day, using MoP on the CHA check against Bob. Upon Bob's agreement, he wishes for a Trap the Soul for Jim, with a trigger object. He then wishes for that trigger object to be sympathetic for Efreeti. Lastly, he uses the 3rd wish for whatever it is he was really wanting. Lets say +1 to an ability score for now. Bob's service now complete, Elfy hands the trigger object over, and Bob poofs into the gem. Elfy puts Bob's gem into the bag of holding 1, along with the gem and trigger object for Jim. Leaves his MMM, planeshifts back to the material plane somewhere, pops a Mage's Private Sanctum with a rope trick, then planeshifts to some other random plane, pops another MMM for the night, casts a mental alarm, and heads to bed, making sure his bag of holding is on him. If the alarm goes of, he planeshifts back to the material plane, and teleports to his private sanctum/rope trick. Drops another alarm and/or defences for what set off the alarm.
Day 3-5: Repeat Day 2 substituting the next Efreet in line to get used.
Day 6: After getting the last of his wishes (7 in total, 1 each from the first 4, and 3 from the last efreet), Elfy will put all the gems in the bag of holding 1, and rupture the bag, forever losing the contents. He will then go to bed as he has previously, and will maintain the level of hiding for another week, just in case.
Day 6 is where I setup this example to start being investigated, if wraithstrike/others want to say they started looking on day 1, that works too.
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James has said there are a limited number of high level casters. This subject came up because Pathfinder has an NPC book, and I inquired about NPC's above level 13 since those were the ones that took the most time for us DM's to make.
Quote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Do the character levels go from 1 to 20?
James Jacobs wrote:
Nope; they skew toward the low and mid level ranges. High level NPCs are generally specific individuals who rule nations or otherwise have big footprints; they thus have very little "replay" value. The NPCs in this book are intended to be used and reused in the same way the monsters in a Bestiary are.
In fact, just flipped through the book and there are VERY few NPCs above 9th level in the book.
Big foot prints seems to equate to well known. That just makes them easier to find.
Note that I asked about characters, and did not even limit it to casters, which makes the list even smaller for casters.
The only problem is that we know that there are at least 70 spellcaster selling spell casting services in the inner sea area alone.
And we have a multiuniverse, not a single continent.
You start from a position: only the NPC depicted in the Pathfinder Chronicles exist. You dismiss the availability of people casting level 8th spells in every city above 25.000 habitants.
If in your world any character above level 9 is a rarity you should remove that possibility and remove 90% of the magic items that require a higher caster level to be made.
Look city of strangers: the NPC detailed are all middle level characters but the city description (less than 9.000 habitants) say you can routinely find services from caster capable to cast level 8th spells.spells
James reply seem more aimed to explain why they haven't detailed high level people, not to say that the NPC presence in game is limited to middle levels.
Please link the thread where you have got that reply and the whole question.
According to James who I quoted it supports my idea that the campaign world matters.Eberron has about 5 printed NPC's that are humanoid that could pull this one and 1 of them would not do it anyway.
FR makes things harder, but not impossible.
If you use only the material printed in the Pathfinder Chronicles the PC that have completed the 4-5 module of a PA are already at the top of the food chain and the main NPC in the last module don't exist.
Curiosity higher level opponents in the service of the main enemy continue to crop up in every PA and generally there is at least one spellcaster capable to use level 8+ spells in every end module of the serie. Looking the last 3 modules of the Second darkness PA I see 3 detailed NPC that are level 15+ spellcasters, several 13+, plus the elf queen Telandia, that is detailed in a separate sourcebook as a wizard of level 17+ (her stats are not cited in the Pathfinder Chronicles but she is cited there as a name).
Pazio has not detailed the "big names" because they don't want the "Elmister sindrome" (patent pending), i.e. "there is a big problem, lets run to daddy Elmister and hask his help, he is a omnipotent wizard after all."
Didn't I just handle the race thing with commune/CoP.
You already know how I am going to do the yes/no thing. The past 3 or 4 post have been me reposting what I said earlier. I am refusing to go another full explanation of information that is already in the post.
Since you already know how I am going to do the yes/no question thing, it is a waste of time for me to repost it. Pretend you are trying to find the caster by asking yes/no questions. If you get stuck somewhere let me know. I would suggest start broad and then be more specific.You haven't handled the race thing. You said you could do it. You have not given examples. What questions would you ask with CoP to find out why Bob the Efreet and his 5 buddies have disappeared. The information you currently have is that they have disappeared, one a day for the last 5 days.
In this spoiler, I will list where the wizard currently is, in what form, and what spells he has up. If your questions seem to be too specific, I'll assume you've read the spoiler and are metagaming. Remember, you get 1 word answers from your questions, please post the answer you think you would get (yes, no, maybe, never, irrelevant etc).
** spoiler omitted **...
It does not matter if I look at the spoiler or not. Either you can found or you can not. This is binary. It is either a 1 or 0. Remember that as the DM I would get to choose when the hunt escalates. 1 wish, 2 wishes, 24 wishes is all up to the DM. There are multiple ways to hide, and I can't sit here and type to simulate 20 different casters. Well I can, but it would create big wall of text that I don't have for. That is why I explain the basic method and I asked you to come up with generic questions you would ask to whittle the answers down. You have 1 caster hiding vs many intelligent beings trying to find him. My money is not on the one caster.
I have yet to see an argument that tells me how my broad question break down does not work. The possible ways to pull this off are finite. That is why it can't be done. Now if you can prove there are infinite ways to do so I will give you credit.I would not be asking about the wizard's current form. If the person shaped changed to a dragon or pit fiend. The Efreet was still killed by a person so by me breaking it down to an elf or human I still get valuable info. In a game the chain-binding is being cross investigated, and you want me to believe that nobody can come up with an answer?
Any idea that is good enough to be thought of can be countered.
Now I will check the spoiler. So far you have to say anything that was not covered by a previous post, and your replies have been I doubt X percent is good enough.
I like the rupturing bag idea.
Unless I missed something nothing is stopping those Efreet from being divined though.
I don't need much more than that to eliminate suspects. 16th level casters don't just get to hide out going from 1st to 16th without doing anything of note.
I think we need to discuss why an 80% chance that is cross-referenced is not good enough though. I think that is where the disconnect is.
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Unless I missed something nothing is stopping those Efreet from being divined though.
I don't need much more than that to eliminate suspects. 16th level casters don't just get to hide out going from 1st to 16th without doing anything of note.I think we need to discuss why an 80% chance that is cross-referenced is not good enough though. I think that is where the disconnect is.
I think you assume that the action that have got you to level 16 make it evident that you are level 16.
My players have just completed Curse of the Crimson throne. As the group is larger than the average 4 man group they are 15th level (as 15th and 16th cleric, wizard and druids have access to level 8 spells the difference is almost irrelevant for the general population).
They are town heroes, their name is known in all the Varisia region, Chelaxia, Hold of Belkzen and several other regions.
Let's look what the general population know:
- they can fly;
- they an cast bolt of lightning, balls of fire, (three) lances of fire at the same time;
- they have killed several powerful enemies.
The population see them as big heroes but someone searching informations about them could easily conclude that they are level 5th or more. The 3 rays from Scorching ray point out to level 11+ if the guy doing the research get that information.
What better informed people know:
- they have used multiple teleports;
- they have gone to the local church of Pharasma for a resurrection;
So from them you can gauge the power level as level 9+ but less than 13.
One guy whit 0 spellcraft and knowledge arcana was healed from some permanent effect by the wizard casting a powerful spell (limited wish).
If you get to speak with the right person, get the right informations and all our guy gathering informations will know that the wizard is at least level 13.
What we will know with a generic gather information plus knowledge arcana will get, especially if it is done from rumours going around the continent and not checking them locally?
"A group of heroes with a elf wizard named XXX and a cleric named XXX has killed enemies A and B. From the power of the known enemies killed, if rumours aren't too exaggerated, they are probably level 11-12." and that would be already a good results, rating them as level 9 would be more credible.
Sure a extra high roll could point out that doing further investigations could be useful, but unless they get to ask to the right people or start casting Commune or Contact other Planes simply to know if the characters are capable of casting 7th or 8th level spells your "common knowledge" information gathering will not include them in your "powerful casters" list.
Note that even the question "they can cast level 7hs spells" is tricky, the character in game have no notion of levels and even the levels of the spells is a problematic concept, so the question will be something like "The wizard X can cast spell XX?". Perfect source of problems. X cold be capable of casting level 7th or 8th spells but not know spell XX, he could be incapable of casting level 7th spells but currently owning a scroll of spell XX, he could be a sorceror.
With a literal interpretation of the question even having a high enough UMD can get a yes reply.
If you start asking questions with Commune/CoP about any spellcaster that has become famous and could potentially be capable of casting level 7th spells you fall again in the chain casting of Commune/CoP.
Something that to me seem way more broken that getting wishes from a bound efreeti.
Another thing that you are continuously discounting is how costly gathering the needed informations will be in terms of manpower, money and goodwill both from the entities contacted by commune/CoP and by the spellcasters you are employing.
CoP has not costly material components but has a high risk for the caster. I would require a very high pay to cast it.
Commune has no inherent risk and a manageable cost, but require the interest of church in the matter. Your local archbishop would be more than willing to cast it if the missing guy is someone important, but he would be way less favourably inclined to cast it for a common citizen.
When your player are level 1 and the miller son has been abducted they go to the local head of the church and ask "Cast commune for us, we need to find the miller son?". I doubt that.
It does not matter if I look at the spoiler or not. Either you can found or you can not. This is binary. It is either a 1 or 0. Remember that as the DM I would get to choose when the hunt escalates. 1 wish, 2 wishes, 24 wishes is all up to the DM. There are multiple ways to hide, and I can't sit here and type to simulate 20 different casters. Well I can, but it would create big wall of text that I don't have for. That is why I explain the basic method and I asked you to come up with generic questions you would ask to whittle the answers down. You have 1 caster hiding vs many intelligent beings trying to find him. My money is not on the one caster.
I have yet to see an argument that tells me how my broad question break down does not work. The possible ways to pull this off are finite. That is why it can't be done. Now if you can prove there are infinite ways to do so I will give you credit.I would not be asking about the wizard's current form. If the person shaped changed to a dragon or pit fiend. The Efreet was still killed by a person so by me breaking it down to an elf or human I still get valuable info. In a game the chain-binding is being cross investigated, and you want me to believe that nobody can come up with an answer?
Any idea that is good enough to be thought of can be countered.
You have not shown how you can find a specific caster via a set of questions. You have said "they can find it by asking questions" without showing what those questions are. You must show that you have a set of questions that can do it. The onus of proof is on you, I have given you a specific example, what questions would you ask to find this wizard?
Now I will check the spoiler. So far you have to say anything that was not covered by a previous post, and your replies have been I doubt X percent is good enough.I like the rupturing bag idea.
Unless I missed something nothing is stopping those Efreet from being divined though.
I don't need much more than that to eliminate suspects. 16th level casters don't just get to hide out going from 1st to 16th without doing anything of note.I think we need to discuss why an 80% chance that is cross-referenced is not good enough though. I think that is where the disconnect is.
You're right, the efreet can be divined. I don't know how "they're in the extradimensional space from a bag of holding" is of use to you, but go for it. Please, post the list of questions you would use to find this wizard.