Nice job with your dill-inspired idea, Purple Dragon Knight. ;) Definitely a major improvement to the class, along with everything else that got tweaked by the design team. Good job, you guys.
Nice job with your dill-inspired idea, Purple Dragon Knight. ;) Definitely a major improvement to the class, along with everything else that got tweaked by the design team. Good job, you guys.
Can someone explain the pickle joke? I'm lost v.v
What is all this pickle talk, can somebody explain? The only pickles I can think of I do not know how they apply.
Let's just say it involved Purple Dragon Knight, a pickle, and a stroke of genius...that didn't completely follow through into the playtest, but was better than the alternative.
AKA: Dead Shot
-The Beast
For those of you who are completely lost, check out the "Respect the Dill Pickle" thread from round 1.
And what Beast just said.
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Okay, I'm going to try to explain; it's complicated.
The "pickles" idea was introduced by "Purple Dragon Knight", a poster on these forums.
It is refereed to as "pickles" because according to him, the idea struck him like a bolt of inspiration while he was eating/getting-ready-to-eat, well, Dill Pickles.
The actual idea itself was basically the "dead shot" deed as currently presented: Single Shot fired against a single target that functions mechanically as a full-round attack with multiple iterative rolls and everything.
It was really popular because it significantly reduced the Ammo Cost and Reload Time problems that crippled gunslingers at low and mid levels, and because it allowed feats like "Rapid Shot" and "Manyshot" to work mechanically with the Gunslinger.
Imagine the "Round 2" gunslinger without the "dead shot" deed, without the ability to make his own ammo at 1/10th cost, without alchemical ammunition. That's basically what the Round 1 gunslinger was (there were other issues, but that's not relevant). Try writing up and comapring a 7th or 8th level Gunslinger like that, and comparing it to a Ranger Archer.
Now, add just "dead shot", and re-do the comparision. That's why the pickle rule was so popular.
question is, does he make an avatar with that name? :D
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Okay, I'm going to try to explain; it's complicated.
The "pickles" idea was introduced by "Purple Dragon Knight", a poster on these forums.
It is refereed to as "pickles" because according to him, the idea struck him like a bolt of inspiration while he was eating/getting-ready-to-eat, well, Dill Pickles.
The actual idea itself was basically the "dead shot" deed as currently presented: Single Shot fired against a single target that functions mechanically as a full-round attack with multiple iterative rolls and everything.
It was really popular because it significantly reduced the Ammo Cost and Reload Time problems that crippled gunslingers at low and mid levels, and because it allowed feats like "Rapid Shot" and "Manyshot" to work mechanically with the Gunslinger.
Imagine the "Round 2" gunslinger without the "dead shot" deed, without the ability to make his own ammo at 1/10th cost, without alchemical ammunition. That's basically what the Round 1 gunslinger was (there were other issues, but that's not relevant). Try writing up and comapring a 7th or 8th level Gunslinger like that, and comparing it to a Ranger Archer.
Now, add just "dead shot", and re-do the comparision. That's why the pickle rule was so popular.
I'm sorry to say it, but Dead Shot as written is rather inferior to a pistol with paper cartridges and Rapid Reload. That way, you can get two attacks per round by level 4, dealing more damage as you would with Dead Shot without spending grit.
I'm sorry to say it, but Dead Shot as written is rather inferior to a pistol with paper cartridges and Rapid Reload. That way, you can get two attacks per round by level 4, dealing more damage as you would with Dead Shot without spending grit.Okay, I'm going to try to explain; it's complicated.
The "pickles" idea was introduced by "Purple Dragon Knight", a poster on these forums.
It is refereed to as "pickles" because according to him, the idea struck him like a bolt of inspiration while he was eating/getting-ready-to-eat, well, Dill Pickles.
The actual idea itself was basically the "dead shot" deed as currently presented: Single Shot fired against a single target that functions mechanically as a full-round attack with multiple iterative rolls and everything.
It was really popular because it significantly reduced the Ammo Cost and Reload Time problems that crippled gunslingers at low and mid levels, and because it allowed feats like "Rapid Shot" and "Manyshot" to work mechanically with the Gunslinger.
Imagine the "Round 2" gunslinger without the "dead shot" deed, without the ability to make his own ammo at 1/10th cost, without alchemical ammunition. That's basically what the Round 1 gunslinger was (there were other issues, but that's not relevant). Try writing up and comapring a 7th or 8th level Gunslinger like that, and comparing it to a Ranger Archer.
Now, add just "dead shot", and re-do the comparision. That's why the pickle rule was so popular.
Except for it blowing up in your face a bit more often.
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Except for it blowing up in your face a bit more often.I'm sorry to say it, but Dead Shot as written is rather inferior to a pistol with paper cartridges and Rapid Reload. That way, you can get two attacks per round by level 4, dealing more damage as you would with Dead Shot without spending grit.Okay, I'm going to try to explain; it's complicated.
The "pickles" idea was introduced by "Purple Dragon Knight", a poster on these forums.
It is refereed to as "pickles" because according to him, the idea struck him like a bolt of inspiration while he was eating/getting-ready-to-eat, well, Dill Pickles.
The actual idea itself was basically the "dead shot" deed as currently presented: Single Shot fired against a single target that functions mechanically as a full-round attack with multiple iterative rolls and everything.
It was really popular because it significantly reduced the Ammo Cost and Reload Time problems that crippled gunslingers at low and mid levels, and because it allowed feats like "Rapid Shot" and "Manyshot" to work mechanically with the Gunslinger.
Imagine the "Round 2" gunslinger without the "dead shot" deed, without the ability to make his own ammo at 1/10th cost, without alchemical ammunition. That's basically what the Round 1 gunslinger was (there were other issues, but that's not relevant). Try writing up and comapring a 7th or 8th level Gunslinger like that, and comparing it to a Ranger Archer.
Now, add just "dead shot", and re-do the comparision. That's why the pickle rule was so popular.
There are certain ways to circumvent even that.
And even if you waste one round repairing your weapon, you'll still deal more damage than you would have dealt with Dead Shot.
I could see it being very useful in the right situation. One example would be overcoming hardness on , for instance , a sunder attack. I would rather do 2d12+3 in a single shot then 1d12+3 twice. Especially if the target has something like hardness 10.
2d12+3 - avg dmg 6.5+6.5+3 = 16 - 10 hardness = 6 dmg
1d12+3 - avg dmg 6.5+3 = 9.5 - 10 hardness = 0 dmg
I'm glad they include this option, I just wish they had kept it like the original version, multiplying everything, rather than being a glorified (any worse) version of vital strike. Sigh.
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I'm glad they include this option, I just wish they had kept it like the original version, multiplying everything, rather than being a glorified (any worse) version of vital strike. Sigh.
That's my point. I build an optimized gunslinger with a musket using Dead Shot. It wasn't very impressive, considering Dead Shot takes a full round action and costs grit. Allowing it to multiply bonus damage would make it actually useful.
Just limit it to attacks granted by BAB (no Rapid Shot, no TWF, no Haste) and it should be fine.
It reminds me of a 3rd party publication called Master of Arms or something like that. It was a book of about 20ish prestige classes that all focused on a specific weapon and instead of class features it was feat trees so you could customize your master of X. The one thing I really loved from that book was the Aiming feat. To summarize you started aiming and you did "targeting" attacks with each targeting attack adding an +2 to the next targeting attack or payoff and then finishing with a "payoff" shot.
Ex. Mighty Longbow Sniper named Warren the Unassuming has an attack progression of 10/5 and a damage roll of 1d8+3. Let's assume he has rapid shot for 8/8/3. He decides to aim and his target has an ac of 15 (for argument sake) he rolls a 11 on his first roll hitting, he decides to continue aiming with his second attack. Keep in mind he hasn't actually fired a shot. He has a +10 to hit and he rolls a 6 which just squeaks by. He fires his payoff shot with a +7 mod (remember the +4 for two successful targeting attacks) his luck fails him and he rolls a 6. Which of course results in a miss. Now assuming he hit with the last shot it would have dealt 3d8+9.
The reason I loved this approach was it made sniping something really interesting and yes you could stock up some serious damage, it had you keep the results separate in case of critical hits on a target shot which would result in our previous example assuming target attack 2 crit would be 1d8+3+(3d8+9)+1d8+3 for a total of 5d8+15. The drawback was if you missed on that payoff shot then it all went down the tube. Or you know someone had deflect arrows or snatch arrows but that's neither here nor there.
I'm glad they include this option, I just wish they had kept it like the original version, multiplying everything, rather than being a glorified (any worse) version of vital strike. Sigh.
I agree. They need to keep it the way it was in the original version. Each roll with it's own possible crit hit, but only one shot, only once chance to misfire (1st roll), and if they miss their initial attack roll, the pickle shot a.k.a Dead Shot is wasted. Plus, only apply DR once to total damage, add special weapon property damage only once, etc.
This way, if a musket gunslinger with 3 attacks (+11/+6/+1) hits with his first and confirms a crit, misses with his second, and hits with his third, he could do a total of 5d12 + Dex modifier from one hit, and a possibility for massive damage (if using the alternate rule). Perhaps that should be mentionsed in the description.
I'm glad they include this option, I just wish they had kept it like the original version, multiplying everything, rather than being a glorified (any worse) version of vital strike. Sigh.I agree. They need to keep it the way it was in the original version. Each roll with it's own possible crit hit, but only one shot, only once chance to misfire (1st roll), and if they miss their initial attack roll, the pickle shot a.k.a Dead Shot is wasted. Plus, only apply DR once to total damage, add special weapon property damage only once, etc.
This way, if a musket gunslinger with 3 attacks (+11/+6/+1) hits with his first and confirms a crit, misses with his second, and hits with his third, he could do a total of 5d12 + Dex modifier from one hit, and a possibility for massive damage (if using the alternate rule). Perhaps that should be mentionsed in the description.
Holy hell. Just read the dill pickles post. That's awesome. It's crazy. So crazy it just might work. Dead shot needs to be kept to add the modifiers for Dex/feats for each attack but keep the special weapon qualities only added once. That is just awesome.
Holy hell. Just read the dill pickles post. That's awesome. It's crazy. So crazy it just might work. Dead shot needs to be kept to add the modifiers for Dex/feats for each attack but keep the special weapon qualities only added once. That is just awesome.
Yeah, it kinda is, isn't it? ;)
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I'm glad they include this option, I just wish they had kept it like the original version, multiplying everything, rather than being a glorified (any worse) version of vital strike. Sigh.I agree. They need to keep it the way it was in the original version. Each roll with it's own possible crit hit, but only one shot, only once chance to misfire (1st roll), and if they miss their initial attack roll, the pickle shot a.k.a Dead Shot is wasted. Plus, only apply DR once to total damage, add special weapon property damage only once, etc.
This way, if a musket gunslinger with 3 attacks (+11/+6/+1) hits with his first and confirms a crit, misses with his second, and hits with his third, he could do a total of 5d12 + Dex modifier from one hit, and a possibility for massive damage (if using the alternate rule). Perhaps that should be mentionsed in the description.
The pickleshot I playtested was slightly different:
Each roll with it's own possible crit hit, DEX bonus to damage, magical enhancement bonus, weapon properties (such as flaming) but only one bullet, only once chance to misfire (1st roll), and if they miss their initial attack roll, the pickle shot a.k.a Dead Shot was *not* wasted (i.e. you keep going as long as you have attacks, so in effect you hit the target for damage in any of the attacks hit). Then, you only apply DR once to total damage. You roll versus regular AC and not Touch AC.
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Holy hell. Just read the dill pickles post. That's awesome. It's crazy. So crazy it just might work. Dead shot needs to be kept to add the modifiers for Dex/feats for each attack but keep the special weapon qualities only added once. That is just awesome.
Based on my playtest, Dead Shot needs to also keep weapon qualities for each attack. Anything less is penalizing the gunslinger in comparison to a bow archer. KISS: Keep It Simple and Stupid.
The true pickleshot does away with any complication: you treat the pickleshot as if you'd be shooting a bullet for each attack you roll. Misfire only if natural one on the first roll. The only advantage that was built into the pickleshot is that you apply DR only once. That's it, simple. No grit required.
The pickleshot, mind you, used regular AC and not Touch AC... My suggestion would be to make Dead Shot deed into the pickleshot described above with the following option:
"Dead Shot is performed against the target's regular AC at all range increments, and can be used at no grit point cost as long as the gunslinger has one grit point left. At the cost of one grit point, however, the gunslinger can use Dead Shot against the target's Touch AC if she is within the first range increment."
Call this, *The_Dill_Pickleshot* if you will, as I feel we are getting closer to the true Dill_Pickle-induced eureka moment I had... :)
The next step of evolution a Pickle Knight should undertake is to become an Onion Knight
Holy hell. Just read the dill pickles post. That's awesome. It's crazy. So crazy it just might work. Dead shot needs to be kept to add the modifiers for Dex/feats for each attack but keep the special weapon qualities only added once. That is just awesome.Based on my playtest, Dead Shot needs to also keep weapon qualities for each attack. Anything less is penalizing the gunslinger in comparison to a bow archer. KISS: Keep It Simple and Stupid.
The true pickleshot does away with any complication: you treat the pickleshot as if you'd be shooting a bullet for each attack you roll. Misfire only if natural one on the first roll. The only advantage that was built into the pickleshot is that you apply DR only once. That's it, simple. No grit required.
The pickleshot, mind you, used regular AC and not Touch AC... My suggestion would be to make Dead Shot deed into the pickleshot described above with the following option:
"Dead Shot is performed against the target's regular AC at all range increments, and can be used at no grit point cost as long as the gunslinger has one grit point left. At the cost of one grit point, however, the gunslinger can use Dead Shot against the target's Touch AC if she is within the first range increment."
Call this, *The_Dill_Pickleshot* if you will, as I feel we are getting closer to the true Dill_Pickle-induced eureka moment I had... :)
Pickle Knight, I think you have it. I'm going to post a big review and suggestions, and I will use your version as the Dead Shot revamp. It IS all about the DILL PICKLES. I will of course quote you.
Hey Purple Dragon Knight, how's this for the new Dead Shot?
For each additional hit made against the target beyond the first, the gunslinger increases the damage of the shot by the base die roll of the firearm. All damage modifiers, including those from the gunslinger’s Dexterity modifier, Deadly Aim feat, precision damage and extra damage from special weapon qualities (such as flaming) are added with damage modifiers to each damage die. If one or more attack rolls are critical threats, she confirms each critical as normal, and on a confirmation, she multiplies the damage normally. However, any damage reduction the target has is applied once to the total damage of the shot.
When making a Dead Shot, the gunslinger can only misfire if all attack rolls result in a misfire. Any missed attack, including the first attack roll, does not negate any subsequent rolls during the Dead Shot. Alternately, the gunslinger can spend 1 grit point to perform the Dead Shot against the target’s touch AC.
VERY NICE. Effingly nice. I am now heading to the kitchen in search of dill pickles.Hey Purple Dragon Knight, how's this for the new Dead Shot?
Yes! Go forth and figure out some cool new addition for this class, Sir Knight. ;)
The next step of evolution a Pickle Knight should undertake is to become an Onion Knight
I like this.
Hey Purple Dragon Knight, how's this for the new Dead Shot?
** spoiler omitted **
All I'd say is you should specify the action type. I'd always run it as a full-round, but some might see it differently.
If you take deadshot, then later you can take pickleshot.
I remember Pickles from Pickles for everyone.
Obviously, the idea of a gun subclass for every core class was rejected. Still, Pickle is a code for gun, when used effectively.
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The next step of evolution a Pickle Knight should undertake is to become an Onion KnightI like this.
although it may be considered health food, I am *not* eating a raw onion to come up with more gunslinger goodness... :P
Final Fantasy 4ever! :)
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The next step of evolution a Pickle Knight should undertake is to become an Onion Knight
True, but PF doesn't have epic level (yet) so the required level 90 can't be reached. But someday....
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The next step of evolution a Pickle Knight should undertake is to become an Onion KnightTrue, but PF doesn't have epic level (yet) so the required level 90 can't be reached. But someday....
Hopefully PF epic level rule won't see a character level every time they kill a monster... LOL!