Alright. Can someone please point out the very obvious thing that I seem to be missing here?
A Pepperbox gun costs 3000gp. A Revolver costs 750gp. The only difference between the two mechanically is that a Revolver weighs 1 pound more and Cannot Misfire.
What am I missing here? Why would anyone in their right mind pay 3000gp for a Pepperbox gun?
Alright. Can someone please point out the very obvious thing that I seem to be missing here?
A Pepperbox gun costs 3000gp. A Revolver costs 750gp. The only difference between the two mechanically is that a Revolver weighs 1 pound more and Cannot Misfire.
What am I missing here? Why would anyone in their right mind pay 3000gp for a Pepperbox gun?
You don't have access to advance firearms. That and the final price of the advanced firearms will probably change.
The advanced firearms are basically there to show the far end of the concept. They do come from a time period that is more old west than medieval fantasy.
Alright. That's pretty clear now, thanks.
Stephen what is the likelihood we'll see some rules for adding more barrels or for making combiweapons (like the musket axe) in the final?
Also are we likely to see more alchemical ammunition types in the final product?
(I'm not asking to see these now, or even soon -- I'm just seeing if they'll be there at all).
Alright. Can someone please point out the very obvious thing that I seem to be missing here?
A Pepperbox gun costs 3000gp. A Revolver costs 750gp. The only difference between the two mechanically is that a Revolver weighs 1 pound more and Cannot Misfire.
What am I missing here? Why would anyone in their right mind pay 3000gp for a Pepperbox gun?
You don't have access to advance firearms. That and the final price of the advanced firearms will probably change.
The advanced firearms are basically there to show the far end of the concept. They do come from a time period that is more old west than medieval fantasy.
That made my day so much you don't even know. I haven't seen a system for old west that I liked, so I've been trying to create my own Wild West demiplane for a campaign next semester, creating it around the guns.
EDIT: what I meant is that I sincerely hope Paizo creates an Old West adventure path or something for PF
Stephen what is the likelihood we'll see some rules for adding more barrels or for making combiweapons (like the musket axe) in the final?
Also are we likely to see more alchemical ammunition types in the final product?
(I'm not asking to see these now, or even soon -- I'm just seeing if they'll be there at all).
The likelihood you will see more combi-weapons and alchemical ammunition in UC is pretty darn high.
That made my day so much you don't even know. I haven't seen a system for old west that I liked, so I've been trying to create my own Wild West demiplane for a campaign next semester, creating it around the guns.Alright. Can someone please point out the very obvious thing that I seem to be missing here?
A Pepperbox gun costs 3000gp. A Revolver costs 750gp. The only difference between the two mechanically is that a Revolver weighs 1 pound more and Cannot Misfire.
What am I missing here? Why would anyone in their right mind pay 3000gp for a Pepperbox gun?
You don't have access to advance firearms. That and the final price of the advanced firearms will probably change.
The advanced firearms are basically there to show the far end of the concept. They do come from a time period that is more old west than medieval fantasy.
Awesome. You'll have to tell us how it goes!
Awesome. You'll have to tell us how it goes!
Once i get finished with the world I might post it on these forums. Still waaay off from that though.
Also, the earliest you'll be able to purchase advanced firearms is probably in the "Commonplace Guns" setting, in which case the Pepperbox is 25% price, or 750 gp, putting it on the same level as a revolver concerning price. The only real difference between them would be misfire, and a revolver would probably be one helluva lot harder to find.
That was actually one of my favorite additions to this system: the "settings." It really adds a level of "oh, cool" to the system. For example:
Pistol to Revolver
Very Rare Guns: No revolver, only pistol for 1000 gp.
Emerging Guns: Pistol for 1000 gp. Revolver probably only ever obtained by killing a high-level gunslinger noble from Alkenstar.
Commonplace Guns: Pistol now 250 gp, with revolver at 750, representing new, fresh technology.
Guns Everywhere: Pistols are antiques, running around 100 gp each, whereas revolvers are common and mass-produced, making them cheaper at 75.
Very Fun. Nice touch.
-The Beast
Stephen what is the likelihood we'll see some rules for adding more barrels or for making combiweapons (like the musket axe) in the final?
Also are we likely to see more alchemical ammunition types in the final product?
(I'm not asking to see these now, or even soon -- I'm just seeing if they'll be there at all).
The likely hood you will see more combi-weapons and alchemical ammunition in UC is pretty darn high.
good my vote is for a flint lock/whip combo!
Alright. Can someone please point out the very obvious thing that I seem to be missing here?
A Pepperbox gun costs 3000gp. A Revolver costs 750gp. The only difference between the two mechanically is that a Revolver weighs 1 pound more and Cannot Misfire.
What am I missing here? Why would anyone in their right mind pay 3000gp for a Pepperbox gun?
I don't know what's up with the pricing but the revolver can use metal cartridges and the pepperbox uses bullet/black powder and alchemical cartridges.
Alchemical cartridges reduce the reload time by one step but increases misfire by 1 and metal cartridges work like alchemical cartridges without the misfire and allows you to reload to full capacity as a move action. So both firearms can be reloaded as a move action. Free action with Rapid Reload if I understand correctly.
The revolver are more stable than the pepperbox it seems.
Stephen what is the likelihood we'll see some rules for adding more barrels or for making combiweapons (like the musket axe) in the final?
Also are we likely to see more alchemical ammunition types in the final product?
(I'm not asking to see these now, or even soon -- I'm just seeing if they'll be there at all).
The likely hood you will see more combi-weapons and alchemical ammunition in UC is pretty darn high.
Oh....shiny. Here is hoping for acid shot and alchemist fire shot.
Alright. Can someone please point out the very obvious thing that I seem to be missing here?
A Pepperbox gun costs 3000gp. A Revolver costs 750gp. The only difference between the two mechanically is that a Revolver weighs 1 pound more and Cannot Misfire.
What am I missing here? Why would anyone in their right mind pay 3000gp for a Pepperbox gun?
You don't have access to advance firearms. That and the final price of the advanced firearms will probably change.
The advanced firearms are basically there to show the far end of the concept. They do come from a time period that is more old west than medieval fantasy.
But when you get to the advanced firearms eras, why would anyone pay 750gp for a pepperbox over a revolver when the latter is strictly better?
One of the two prices definitely needs to be changed for it to make any sense at all.
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Alright. Can someone please point out the very obvious thing that I seem to be missing here?
A Pepperbox gun costs 3000gp. A Revolver costs 750gp. The only difference between the two mechanically is that a Revolver weighs 1 pound more and Cannot Misfire.
What am I missing here? Why would anyone in their right mind pay 3000gp for a Pepperbox gun?
You don't have access to advance firearms. That and the final price of the advanced firearms will probably change.
The advanced firearms are basically there to show the far end of the concept. They do come from a time period that is more old west than medieval fantasy.
But when you get to the advanced firearms eras, why would anyone pay 750gp for a pepperbox over a revolver when the latter is strictly better?
One of the two prices definitely needs to be changed for it to make any sense at all.
Re-read the "era/setting" sidebar again. Each different era not only determines the availability of Advanced Firearms, but it also applies a price multiplier to basic firearms.
Commonplace Guns: While still expensive and tricky
to wield, early firearms are readily available. Instead of
requiring an Exotic Weapon Proficiency, all firearms are
martial weapons. Early firearms and their ammunition
cost 25% of the amount listed in this book, but advanced
firearms and their ammunition are still rare and cost full
price to buy or craft.
When Advanced Firearms are possible to get but still extremely rare, the pepperbox is worth 750 gold (3,000 * 0.35 = 750). Yes, this is the same price as a revolver, which does place some burden on the GM to reminder players that Advanced guns are rare and hard to find.
Guns Everywhere: Guns are commonplace. Early firearms
are seen as antiques, and advanced firearms are widespread.
Firearms are simple weapons, and early firearms, advanced
guns, and their ammunition are bought or crafted for 10%
of the cost listed in this document.
Here, things get even cheaper.
Oh....shiny. Here is hoping for acid shot and alchemist fire shot.
Yeah the book is looking up again in my opinion. Have to try out a gunslinger now though.
hmmm alchemist with amateur gunslinger feat is sounding mighty interesting...
hmmm alchemist with amateur gunslinger feat is sounding mighty interesting...
lol i already made me one.
Here things get even cheaper
Um...the revolver then costs 75gp while the pepperbox costs 300. Does no one else see the problem in this? Except for eras where the revolver doesn't exist, no one would ever bother to buy the pepperbox!
Stephen said that the gun prices in the playtest document likely aren't final.
Stephen said that the gun prices in the playtest document likely aren't final.
Which is the only sensible thing I've heard in this thread so far. The rest just confuses me terribly.
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Stephen what is the likelihood we'll see some rules for adding more barrels or for making combiweapons (like the musket axe) in the final?
Also are we likely to see more alchemical ammunition types in the final product?
(I'm not asking to see these now, or even soon -- I'm just seeing if they'll be there at all).
The likelihood you will see more combi-weapons and alchemical ammunition in UC is pretty darn high.
Ooo! Could this mean a... Gunblade? Come on, you know you all were thinking it.
Mmmm... This is making me want to break out my FF8 discs...
Ooo! Could this mean a... Gunblade? Come on, you know you all were thinking it.Mmmm... This is making me want to break out my FF8 discs...
You mean a pistol with a bayonet on the end? Sure have fun.
Huh? How are you figuring that? You can't shoot either gun more than your iteratives plus one for Rapid Shot. Unless I'm missing something?Ok, original question.
How many bullets can a revolver get out in a single melee round???
Pepperbox: 6
Revolver 2-3???
he's probably referring to the fact that unlike revolvers most pepperboxes had the option of shooting off ALL the barrels at once and not just one at a time.
I'm pretty sure the ones in the playtest can only fire off up to as many attacks as you would get.
Here things get even cheaperUm...the revolver then costs 75gp while the pepperbox costs 300. Does no one else see the problem in this? Except for eras where the revolver doesn't exist, no one would ever bother to buy the pepperbox!
I'm pretty sure a pristine condition flint-lock pistol would cost more than a glock today.
Perhaps someone pays more for a pepperbox because it's an antique?
Yeah, I know.. that wasn't the intention of the rules. Pretty sure the Pepperbox should be at least slightly less cost, and the Guns Everywhere might need a re-evaluation.
Then again, since they are focusing on Emerging Guns as the era that Golarion supports, the other eras might get minimal support in this context. *shrug*
you have to apply the modifiers in the side bar when you shift into a different era.
no one who would pay more for an antique firearm would use it combat or even fire it anyway.
you have to apply the modifiers in the side bar when you shift into a different era.
no one who would pay more for an antique firearm would use it combat or even fire it anyway.
Exactly the point I was making above. In the "Guns Everywhere" era, early firearms are antiques. It says so right in the description. Nobody would use a flintlock pistol in combat unless they were desperate when revolvers, rifles and shotguns are up-and-running.
By the way, quick side-note. Should shotguns, with two barrels, be able to pull the same trick as the double-barrel pistol, by firing both at once? It makes sense to me, but what about the rest of you folks?
-The Beast
you have to apply the modifiers in the side bar when you shift into a different era.
no one who would pay more for an antique firearm would use it combat or even fire it anyway.
Exactly the point I was making above. In the "Guns Everywhere" era, early firearms are antiques. It says so right in the description. Nobody would use a flintlock pistol in combat unless they were desperate when revolvers, rifles and shotguns are up-and-running.
By the way, quick side-note. Should shotguns, with two barrels, be able to pull the same trick as the double-barrel pistol, by firing both at once? It makes sense to me, but what about the rest of you folks?
-The Beast
I once owned a replica of double barreled "pirate pistol" it was really cool. Although it didn't shoot anything, it did allow me to trigger the fall of both hammers at the same time.
As far as shotguns go, the older double barrel "stage coach" and blackpowder shotguns could be fired both barrels and some of the older model over unders could actually be fired both barrels.
there are still double barrel shotguns these days, but a selector switch lets you choose one barrel or the other.
Shooting both barrels is dicey, there is quite a kick to a shotgun already, never mind doubling it.
I have shot a double barrel shotgun both barrels at the same time...it was a 'blast' to say the least.
I knew a guy who had an old 8 gauge that was double barreled, I aksed him if we could shoot em both at the same time and he said NO you DON'T want to do that, and he was quite serious.
so if it was possible in real life, I don;t see why not on a double shotgun.
you have to apply the modifiers in the side bar when you shift into a different era.
no one who would pay more for an antique firearm would use it combat or even fire it anyway.
Exactly the point I was making above. In the "Guns Everywhere" era, early firearms are antiques. It says so right in the description. Nobody would use a flintlock pistol in combat unless they were desperate when revolvers, rifles and shotguns are up-and-running.
By the way, quick side-note. Should shotguns, with two barrels, be able to pull the same trick as the double-barrel pistol, by firing both at once? It makes sense to me, but what about the rest of you folks?
-The Beast
Ye, I would but I'd add a bigger penalty to the shoot maybe like minus 6 or 7 to account for the bigger knock-back.
How would you do it if someone would load pellets in one barrel, a slug in the other and then pulls the trigger? I don't think that anyone would do that in real life but players tend to do some crazy things.
The revolver and pepperbox have the same price in advanced eras. In all other eras, the pepperbox costs more.
Considering the revolver is strictly superior, there seems to be something really wrong with that.
The revolver and pepperbox have the same price in advanced eras. In all other eras, the pepperbox costs more.
Considering the revolver is strictly superior, there seems to be something really wrong with that.
No Guns: No Guns
Very Rare Guns: No advanced firearms
Emerging Guns: Advanced Firearms effectively not available for purchase.
Commonplace Guns: Revolver and Pepperbox have same price. They both fire six shots, but the revolver has more expensive ammo and doesn't misfire. This is the era wherein I have the most issues. All others, I'm okay. Perhaps increasing the price to 8-950 would do the trick, but I'm not going to claim to know. The big problem, I think, is the initial pricing of early firearms as ridiculously expensive. 3000 for a pepperbox? Really?
Guns Everywhere: Revolver is cheap, probably because it's been mass-produced whereas pepperbox is now little more than an antique. It's something people look at and say "huh. I guess that's where they got the idea for a cylinder."
you have to apply the modifiers in the side bar when you shift into a different era.
no one who would pay more for an antique firearm would use it combat or even fire it anyway.
Exactly the point I was making above. In the "Guns Everywhere" era, early firearms are antiques. It says so right in the description. Nobody would use a flintlock pistol in combat unless they were desperate when revolvers, rifles and shotguns are up-and-running.
By the way, quick side-note. Should shotguns, with two barrels, be able to pull the same trick as the double-barrel pistol, by firing both at once? It makes sense to me, but what about the rest of you folks?
-The Beast
Ye, I would but I'd add a bigger penalty to the shoot maybe like minus 6 or 7 to account for the bigger knock-back.
How would you do it if someone would load pellets in one barrel, a slug in the other and then pulls the trigger? I don't think that anyone would do that in real life but players tend to do some crazy things.
it's not uncommon for tubular loads in single barrel pump action shotguns to be loaded with alternating shot and slug.
The slug actually has more powder in it vs. say certain bird shotBird shot has different levels, then comes buck shot, then slug as far as increasing order of 'pow'
IF you were to load a black powder muzzle loader shotgun with two barrels and loaded one with shot and the other with a slug, I suppose you could do it, however the method for aiming shot and slug are different.
So in RL if you aimed for the slug it would hit and the shot wouldnt get the most area effectively, if you aimed for the shot to get the best spread, the slug would most likely miss.
They ARE semi incompatible and in reality there is no benefit to firing them both at the same time,
If i were to have a double barrel load I wanted to blast at someone simultaneously for up close and kill ya' all I think it'd be two barrels of 00 buck.
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six seconds a bullet is a loooong time.
Ah, to hell with realistic game play. Have you ever swung a greatsword? Do you honestly think that you could swing that sucker decently once every 2 seconds? And that's just when a fighter has three attacks. The weight and momentum of the thing make that difficult if not impossible. It gets less possible with more attacks. "Oh," you cry! "The level 11 or 16 Fighter is superhumanly strong!" Quite so. But unless he's swinging with less force than he can, which he isn't, the momentum of the swing and thus the difficulty of arresting that motion, is pretty much consistent.
Compare that to pulling a trigger 3 or 4 times. That's easy to do on a semi-automatic pistol and probably not that much harder with a double action weapon like a revolver.
six seconds a bullet is a loooong time.Huh? How are you figuring that? You can't shoot either gun more than your iteratives plus one for Rapid Shot. Unless I'm missing something?Ok, original question.
How many bullets can a revolver get out in a single melee round???
Pepperbox: 6
Revolver 2-3???
shooting more bullets in 6 seconds is easy
shooting with the intention of hitting more things in 6 seconds is harder
Stephen what is the likelihood we'll see some rules for adding more barrels or for making combiweapons (like the musket axe) in the final?
Also are we likely to see more alchemical ammunition types in the final product?
(I'm not asking to see these now, or even soon -- I'm just seeing if they'll be there at all).
The likelihood you will see more combi-weapons and alchemical ammunition in UC is pretty darn high.
A question if I may: In another debate a player speaks of duel-wielding two pepperboxes. I pointed out that I don't think that this may be possible, as the description of the pepperbox states that the barrels must be rotated by hand, which implies (to me) shooting with one hand and rotating the barrels with the other, much as you can shoot a repeating hand crossbow in one hand (and technically duel-wield it), but need both hands if you want to reload it.
Can you clarify this, preferably in the description of the item when it is released to print.
Stephen what is the likelihood we'll see some rules for adding more barrels or for making combiweapons (like the musket axe) in the final?
Also are we likely to see more alchemical ammunition types in the final product?
(I'm not asking to see these now, or even soon -- I'm just seeing if they'll be there at all).
The likelihood you will see more combi-weapons and alchemical ammunition in UC is pretty darn high.
A question if I may: In another debate a player speaks of duel-wielding two pepperboxes. I pointed out that I don't think that this may be possible, as the description of the pepperbox states that the barrels must be rotated by hand, which implies (to me) shooting with one hand and rotating the barrels with the other, much as you can shoot a repeating hand crossbow in one hand (and technically duel-wield it), but need both hands if you want to reload it.
Can you clarify this, preferably in the description of the item when it is released to print.
unseen servant the wanders around and rotates your barrels for you?
Stephen what is the likelihood we'll see some rules for adding more barrels or for making combiweapons (like the musket axe) in the final?
Also are we likely to see more alchemical ammunition types in the final product?
(I'm not asking to see these now, or even soon -- I'm just seeing if they'll be there at all).
The likelihood you will see more combi-weapons and alchemical ammunition in UC is pretty darn high.
A question if I may: In another debate a player speaks of duel-wielding two pepperboxes. I pointed out that I don't think that this may be possible, as the description of the pepperbox states that the barrels must be rotated by hand, which implies (to me) shooting with one hand and rotating the barrels with the other, much as you can shoot a repeating hand crossbow in one hand (and technically duel-wield it), but need both hands if you want to reload it.
Can you clarify this, preferably in the description of the item when it is released to print.
unseen servant the wanders around and rotates your barrels for you?
The same way he reloads your crossbows.
The same way he reloads your crossbows.Stephen what is the likelihood we'll see some rules for adding more barrels or for making combiweapons (like the musket axe) in the final?
Also are we likely to see more alchemical ammunition types in the final product?
(I'm not asking to see these now, or even soon -- I'm just seeing if they'll be there at all).
The likelihood you will see more combi-weapons and alchemical ammunition in UC is pretty darn high.
A question if I may: In another debate a player speaks of duel-wielding two pepperboxes. I pointed out that I don't think that this may be possible, as the description of the pepperbox states that the barrels must be rotated by hand, which implies (to me) shooting with one hand and rotating the barrels with the other, much as you can shoot a repeating hand crossbow in one hand (and technically duel-wield it), but need both hands if you want to reload it.
Can you clarify this, preferably in the description of the item when it is released to print.
unseen servant the wanders around and rotates your barrels for you?
cast reduce person one two unseen servants, have them run down your arms, rotate the barrels and run back.
Leprechaun barrel rotators!|
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A question if I may: In another debate a player speaks of duel-wielding two pepperboxes. I pointed out that I don't think that this may be possible, as the description of the pepperbox states that the barrels must be rotated by hand, which implies (to me) shooting with one hand and rotating the barrels with the other, much as you can shoot a repeating hand crossbow in one hand (and technically duel-wield it), but need both hands if you want to reload it.
Stephen said in another thread that the users of the pepperbox must have a free hand to rotate the barrels of the Pepperbox. Hopefully, the fact that he had to clarify that here means that he'll make sure that's clear in the book.
What he didn't make clear was how this interacts with light shields and bucklers when your hand is nominally free.