You're also forgetting how expensive shooting them is. If they're allowed to craft their ammo it costs 1.1 gp PER SHOT. If you don't let them craft ammo, it costs 11 gp PER SHOT. Meanwhile it costs .05 gp per shot to use a bow and .1 for a crossbow. Oh yeah, let's not forget the randomly blow up in your face thing. Also bows / crossbows have massively longer range increments. So no the gunslinger isn't going to blow everyone out of the water.
Crossbows don't have a X3 modifier, they have a X2 with a 19-20 range.
However, the halfling sling staff does have a X3 modifier, but I have a hard time imagining a rock penetrating armor.
|
I hate to break it to you, but firearms are capable of piercing plate.
Arrows, crossbows and low velocity guns as in matchlocks were capable of piercing plate at close range. Muskets are much higher velocity and will go right through plate at any range if they actually hit which was unlikely due to the smoothbore at any real distance.
I think we've all been through this before. Stop "armchair designing" and playtest your theory.
How it looks on paper is important, but ultimately how it plays is what matters. So do the math. Stat up an example Gunslinger, an example Archer, and so on, and run the numbers.
+1. No, +10!
The touch attacks are a compromise attempt to model armor penetration in a rules set where armor is binary. By binary I mean it either applies or it does not. I'd prefer it to go away myself, but I don't see that happening. This is primarily because it seems to be part of the firearms rules set in stone by a book already on it's way back from the printers when this playtest started.
I don't remember the announcement saying that Ultimate Combat was on its way to the printers. I know Ultimate Magic was sent to print.
I think we've all been through this before. Stop "armchair designing" and playtest your theory.
How it looks on paper is important, but ultimately how it plays is what matters. So do the math. Stat up an example Gunslinger, an example Archer, and so on, and run the numbers.
I have playtested the gunslinger thoroughly and my biggest gripe was the touch attack with guns, not the class itself. 90% of all monsters are reliant on natural armor for the majority of their AC. In my playtests the gunslinger had no problem being within short range so every attack was a touch attack and due to his high base attack he usually only missed on a 1.
With dexterity bonus to damage and magical guns he did more damage than the ranger per round due to that he never missed. It also made for a pretty boring class whose only tactic was to get into short range and full attack. I don't think he used his grit once in the six encounters we played through (three at level 5 and three at level 10).
It is a shame that the gun rules are not part of the playtest and I seriously doubt they will errata this so this is the first time I will ignore an official rule for Pathfinder.
The touch attacks are a compromise attempt to model armor penetration in a rules set where armor is binary. By binary I mean it either applies or it does not. I'd prefer it to go away myself, but I don't see that happening. This is primarily because it seems to be part of the firearms rules set in stone by a book already on it's way back from the printers when this playtest started.I don't remember the announcement saying that Ultimate Combat was on its way to the printers. I know Ultimate Magic was sent to print.
I've seen it said that they may be in the Inner Sea World Guide that comes out this month.
|
The touch attacks are a compromise attempt to model armor penetration in a rules set where armor is binary. By binary I mean it either applies or it does not. I'd prefer it to go away myself, but I don't see that happening. This is primarily because it seems to be part of the firearms rules set in stone by a book already on it's way back from the printers when this playtest started.I don't remember the announcement saying that Ultimate Combat was on its way to the printers. I know Ultimate Magic was sent to print.
The firearms rules are in the Inner Sea World Guide, which is shipping to subscribers this week.
The firearms rules are in the Inner Sea World Guide, which is shipping to subscribers this week.The touch attacks are a compromise attempt to model armor penetration in a rules set where armor is binary. By binary I mean it either applies or it does not. I'd prefer it to go away myself, but I don't see that happening. This is primarily because it seems to be part of the firearms rules set in stone by a book already on it's way back from the printers when this playtest started.I don't remember the announcement saying that Ultimate Combat was on its way to the printers. I know Ultimate Magic was sent to print.
Well there's the all powerful tool called errata still. But I do stand corrected.
Sure, your name says Ronin, but I see you're a ninja.
I've seen it said that they may be in the Inner Sea World Guide that comes out this month.
::Returns to the shadows::
I hate to break it to you, but firearms are capable of piercing plate.
Arrows, crossbows and low velocity guns as in matchlocks were capable of piercing plate at close range. Muskets are much higher velocity and will go right through plate at any range if they actually hit which was unlikely due to the smoothbore at any real distance.This was a misperception due to very few surviving full plate armors in the era at the time of the emergence of firearms.
Recently on history channel they just showed some dug up armor using the same method of bulletproofing as modern day kevlar vest (obviously made of metal rather then kevlar) and they were fully adequate to stop the bullet of the firearms of their days even at close range.
They even tested using a modern rifle and it still stopped the bullet.
+1. i am not a fan of the touch ac part of firearms but i do like how they are trying to make firearms worth while rather than just another weapon. if i had any sway i would have said just make it a part of the gunslinger class rather than a core part of guns but that's just me.
Soo... did the earlier, non-gun-specific-armor protect as well from firearm shots? Because in the "emerging firearms" era that the game assumes, I'm guessing people aren't making kevlar armor.
However, this does bring up an interesting point. Armor would advance to accomodate firearms as they become more prevalent.
So in an Advanced Firearms era, at the time that you are removing the missfire on firearms because of better quality weapons and powder, and lowering the cost due to mass production, you could also assume to eliminate the armor by-passing effects of the weapons.
How this relates to natural armor, I have no idea... whatever, it's a wrinkle I'm okay with. Perhaps since they can't bypass armor anymore anyways, the refined blackpowder/alchemical loads are designed for mass production and no longer have the same "oomph" to get through natural armor either.
|
|
I hate to break it to you, but firearms are capable of piercing plate.
Arrows, crossbows and low velocity guns as in matchlocks were capable of piercing plate at close range. Muskets are much higher velocity and will go right through plate at any range if they actually hit which was unlikely due to the smoothbore at any real distance.This was a misperception due to very few surviving full plate armors in the era at the time of the emergence of firearms.
Recently on history channel they just showed some dug up armor using the same method of bulletproofing as modern day kevlar vest (obviously made of metal rather then kevlar) and they were fully adequate to stop the bullet of the firearms of their days even at close range.
They even tested using a modern rifle and it still stopped the bullet.
No your making a serious error a kevlar vest won't stop a rifle. At close or long range. Flack vest yes, Kevlar vest no. Pure muzzle velocity wins even against most handguns a kevlar vest will only stop it from killing you. Stopping the bullet and the kinetic energy being transferred inwards killing the person are two very different and not mutually exclusive events.
Glaser safety slugs are a prime example of this. The typical method of killing people in plate was blunt force trauma not actual penetration of the armor.
Touch attack is not going. Sorry folks. I don't like shutting down threads, but I'm going to do it here.