e) It has the means to kill one or more of you in a single round with just an action ( fire breath, powerful physical attacks...), so you can't retaliate effectively after that.
f) you have enough firepower to inflict it some serious damage ( you can see some ideas above) so you can make it rethinking attack you so recklessly.
e) It could literally sit on us during the next ambush to kill us. All it would have to do is turn invisible, fly up as stealthily as it can (it will auto-succeed since our GM rolls our opposed checks) and then it uses it's crush attack. Only hero points allowing us to act out of turn give us any chance at all.
f) Serious firepower? Against a CR 19? Like what?
It's time for this GM to take a break. He may be a good GM, I don't know (I only know what you've told us). In any case, he needs a breather. I would have all the characters either choose to retire or have them killed off. Let someone else run for a bit.
It's time for this GM to take a break. He may be a good GM, I don't know (I only know what you've told us). In any case, he needs a breather. I would have all the characters either choose to retire or have them killed off. Let someone else run for a bit.
If all the remaining characters retire than the WORLD WILL END!!11!1
:P
Contributor
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It's time for this GM to take a break. He may be a good GM, I don't know (I only know what you've told us). In any case, he needs a breather. I would have all the characters either choose to retire or have them killed off. Let someone else run for a bit.If all the remaining characters retire than the WORLD WILL END!!11!1
:P
Sounds like you need a ring of gamemaster control .
It's time for this GM to take a break. He may be a good GM, I don't know (I only know what you've told us). In any case, he needs a breather. I would have all the characters either choose to retire or have them killed off. Let someone else run for a bit.If all the remaining characters retire than the WORLD WILL END!!11!1
:P
That was one of the two options...
All right RD, let me break this in for you:
1. The GM is either clueless or deliberately anal
2. The sooner you talk to him about it, the better
3. If that doesn't work, quit the game
Are you speaking as someone who is familiar with the module?
If there is one thing I know for a fact, it's that the module is very anally designed. I can't complain about much of it though, we all knew what we were getting into when we started.
The GM was VERY clear about how this module was going to be different (CRs not matching up AT ALL, not gaining levels until we reached a certain point, being far more railroady than usual, etc.).
It was even worse while we were running it in v3.5. The module does not allow for you to gain XP under any circumstances, instead leveling you up when you made it from point A to point B. Despite this rules change, they did not include any options for item creation (if you created anything, you'd fall behind the curve) and even included several energy draining monsters! We actually had a guy fall four levels behind with ABSOLUTELY NO WAY TO GET THEM BACK!
The module was THAT poorly designed.
GMs a good guy. I just wish he would frighten us more and kill us less.
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Fine, so the GM is clueless as to module design. No biggie, happens - many GMs walk into running D&D without realizing that it requires at least a modest system mastery in order to avoid the zillion pitfalls.
Approach the guy and use your (considerable, if sometimes misguided :P) rules knowledge and try to convince him that he didn't grasp several important principles of the mechanics. Point him to some well-recieved 3.5/PF module (some say this whole Paizo company did a few) and show-and-tell him how a well-designed module looks like.
If that fails, well, call it quits and go out for a beer with him. Bros before hoes, after all.
I think it is obvious that the dragon is not ment to be killed.
So, if you devise some cheesy solution (like Dust of Cheesing and Poking - which, honestly, is mentioned always when such problems arise) your GM will probably rule around this.
So unless you can use a plot device to overcome the dragon you will die until everyone is fed up.
And @Gorbacz:
RD said the GM warned everyone what this module will mean (though probably not enough) - so I wouldn't conclude that he is clueless.
Finally, I know the old Dl modules and these are RPG garbage all around - quite literally the proofe that good stories often do not make good RP-Adventures because of plot holes and railroading galore.
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..and as long as all can resist the urge to flip out and kill everyone then they make for interesting topics.
I find them very enjoyable!
Sounds to me like you're too frustrated to care by this point anyway.
Talk with your GM and explain your thoughts on the game so far, maybe compromise to try x amount of sessions, and if there is no gain from them, drop the campaign entirely.
I've run several games that my players eventually lost interest in/found too difficult/didn't have time to play anymore and had to end before I felt they saw the greatest parts. It just gives you a chance to try something new for a while, and maybe come back to this campaign some time down the road with a new plan and more ideas.
Any other advice on this (from someone not familiar with the story/campaign) seems to have already been said: get fire protection, hide/sleep in pocket planes, and try your best to advance the rest of the plot. Maybe next time you teleport, you go FAR from where you are, then teleport back a few days later while the dragon is on his way to your first spot. Once you're back to your last ambush spot, start scouting to new places and make use of those knowledge skills.
I'll just say this and be done with it...
Shame on the GM for using the "rocks fall, you die" tactic multiple times.
Shame on you for letting him do it multiple times.
Talk or walk, there you go.
Hi from Greece Ravingdork. I've read about your situation and I could suggest some ways to beat that Red Dragon but i must know your party members . If you could post the characters would be great (or just pm me the stats/abilities/feats/gear)
A quick advice is to get use anti-scrying magic until you find greater magic items (with frost or icy burst,dragon-bane,holy, axiomatic weapons - maybe an artifact in a forgotten temple or the hoard of a mighty creature - you can inflict great amounts of damage, or even find unique artifacts that have very special abilities -immunity to fire, immunity to frightful presence etc)
I'll try to find the stats of the creature and post again later. But as i said before i need to know everything of the party members too.
You're asking the wrong question Froze. RD is fond of posting extreme examples like this without bothering to mention that he's not describing an actual game, but tossing out one of his "theorectical exercises."Uh, Ravingdork, are you actually emjoying the game? If you are frustrated enough that you were going to try to get TPK'd and the GM said he'd just get you to reroll and keep going, your solution shouldn't be ingame, you need to have a serious chat with your GM and remind him that his job is to create an enjoyable game for the players, not to torment them for his own enjoyment like a kid pulling off ant's legs.
Just my 2cp, but from what you've been saying, I would've told the guy to go forth and multiply with himself in an inappropriate manner then left a long time ago.
I thought he listed a few as theoretical when they were real.
A warlock with hellrime blast seems perfect for the job. At 10th level, he would do 5d6 (x1.5 from cold vulnerability) and force a Fort save or take -4 Dex penalty (multiples do not stack) for 10 minutes.
Maybe get some Empower, Maximize, and Quicken Spell-like abilities as feats, and lay on the cold damage. Not sure Ability Focus would be worth it.
EDIT:
Just remembered Spell Resistance. Dang it!
You're asking the wrong question Froze. RD is fond of posting extreme examples like this without bothering to mention that he's not describing an actual game, but tossing out one of his "theorectical exercises."
That's not true at all. I'm always quite clear in which of my posts are theoretical and which are real. The situation in this particular thread is quite real I assure you. I said as much in my opening post.
Hi from Greece Ravingdork. I've read about your situation and I could suggest some ways to beat that Red Dragon but i must know your party members . If you could post the characters would be great (or just pm me the stats/abilities/feats/gear)
There's only two characters left, my transmuter, and the wearbunny. Sadly, I don't have access to the wearbunny's stats due to trust issues with that character's player. However, I can provide my own stats: Haylannar Whart (10th-level human mage killer)
EDIT: Just checked my E-mail and one of my players recently finished his newest character as well, a dhampir ninja: Morwen (10th-level dhampir ninja)
Our fourth player claimed he was going to make a dwarven magus, though I don't have stats for that yet.
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Off Topic: What are you using to generate those characters out?
On Topic: This being a module conversion, it's going to have terrible power shift issues. A 1E great wyrm is not the same as a PF great wyrm. Your DM needs to understand this when converting things directly...or he does and enjoys torturing you all.
Here is an example of 1e high level monster power. These are the stats of one of the Demon Princes. not impossible with some strategy. The listing for some demigods in Pathfinder are horrific (The Mantis God is an example, in the Crimson Throne AP)
Demogorgon( Prince of Demons)
Frequency: very rare
no. appearing: 1
AC -8
move 15"
Hit dice: 200hps
%in lair: 50%
no of attacks: 3
damage/attack: all special
special attacks: see below
special defenses: +2 or better weapons to hit
magic resistance: 95%
intelligence: supra genius
alignment: chaotic evil
size: L(18' tall)
psionic ability: 150/head
attacks/defense modes: all/all
Dragons typically have horrible touch AC, so any spell that targets touch AC should be useful. The Spell Compendium has a host of such spells, including one that deals Dexterity damage (unless that was in PHB2). Dragons go down very fast with a few hits of that spell.
On Topic: This being a module conversion, it's going to have terrible power shift issues. A 1E great wyrm is not the same as a PF great wyrm. Your DM needs to understand this when converting things directly...or he does and enjoys torturing you all.
Since it's a 3.5 module, the conversions shouldn't have much power shift issues. From what others have said, it seems that the module itself has power shift issues though :)
It took a while to read some of the module. Lets begin
First of all, the module is designed for eight (8) players of nine(9) level each which in a classic four (4) member party of a figher, wizard, cleric, rogue translates into eleven(11) level each. (This is taken from the introduction of the module)
1) So the first thing that must be done is that you and your three (3) friends advance your characters to 11 level
Second, the module clearly states what kind of heroes are good for the adventure, and suggests some archetypes that are similar to some classes. Clearly a magus or a ninja is not stated (and even though they are good and fun classes for RP, i cant say with confidence that they are suitable for this adventure)
2) Convince your fellow party members to play a more "classical"/suitable class preferably one of those suggested in the introduction of the module. (personally i suggest that the party should be of a Fighter, a Wizard, a Cleric and a Rogue)
In order to continue the suggestions I must know at which point of the campaign are you . Have you found/recovered the dragonlances or the dragon orbs? Have you visited the Knights of Solamnia ? Have you gone to the High Clerist Tower ? Can you tell me if the Red Dragon is the female Harkiel the Bender as it is described in the module or converted to a CR 19 Red Dragon by the Pathfinder Rules? And last tell me precisely what books are allowed for play
Dragons of Winter is not a simple hack'n'slash adventure and must be played well - from both sides (DM and players)- the DM must be well informed of all things that can happen and narrate the story without forgeting special events which play important role to the ongoing of the story, and players in the other hand must be creative and know when to fight or when to retreat, when to ask for assistance and when act alone.
From what I've read from the previous posts you mention the blue dragons that destroyed the Red Dragon Inn and then you bring up the refugees and their "rescue".
I really want to help you there (i've been in similar difficult situations that needed special "quest" events/items/triggers in order that we had a chance. In good played campaigns rarely the "charge vs all tactic" have any good results). I speak both as a humble, persecuted, unfortunate player and as a seasoned and "cruel" DM
I'm eagerly waiting for further details
wizard lock the dragon's mouth shut, just to see the look on his face =)
Dragons typically have horrible touch AC, so any spell that targets touch AC should be useful. The Spell Compendium has a host of such spells, including one that deals Dexterity damage (unless that was in PHB2). Dragons go down very fast with a few hits of that spell.
Also look for spells that are not effected by Spell Resistance. (mainly acid spells). As these are they one that do Touch AC while not allowing a Saving throw or SR. (But)= There damage is poor on some acid spells to compensate if they are based on old 2nd ed version, for the advantage they grant.
If the Dragon is immune to Acid... well your out of luck... go buy a Gun !
Dude. Permanent See Invisibility. It literally will NOT be able to sneak up on you...you'll see it from a mile away.
==Aelryinth
You're asking the wrong question Froze. RD is fond of posting extreme examples like this without bothering to mention that he's not describing an actual game, but tossing out one of his "theorectical exercises."That's not true at all. I'm always quite clear in which of my posts are theoretical and which are real. The situation in this particular thread is quite real I assure you. I said as much in my opening post.
Hi from Greece Ravingdork. I've read about your situation and I could suggest some ways to beat that Red Dragon but i must know your party members . If you could post the characters would be great (or just pm me the stats/abilities/feats/gear)There's only two characters left, my transmuter, and the wearbunny. Sadly, I don't have access to the wearbunny's stats due to trust issues with that character's player. However, I can provide my own stats: Haylannar Whart (10th-level human mage killer)
EDIT: Just checked my E-mail and one of my players recently finished his newest character as well, a dhampir ninja: Morwen (10th-level dhampir ninja)
Our fourth player claimed he was going to make a dwarven magus, though I don't have stats for that yet.
The new magus has been created: Regdar Axeblow (10th-level dwarven magus)
'dork, alot of people on these boards think a gunslinger can take the dragon down. suggest someone in the party play a round 2 10th level gunslinger? I'd really like to see those results?
Conversely, a Magus with a bout 3 levels of gunslinger would be interesting to see in play as well.
Knowing about this dragon means you should all cash in your excess gear and get fire protection and evasion for everyone.
What about polymorphing the entire party? He cant hunt people he doesn't know.
I would suggest a combination of doing all three.
At the rate new characters seem to be joining your party, does the dragon even recognize them as the ones that wronged him? Don't see how it could. Send them after the anti-dragon whatsit and have the people he's familiar with act as a diversion. Unless he happens to be omniscient, I don't get how he would know about that magus for example, since they have never met.
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I think it is obvious that the dragon is not ment to be killed.
So, if you devise some cheesy solution (like Dust of Cheesing and Poking - which, honestly, is mentioned always when such problems arise) your GM will probably rule around this.
So unless you can use a plot device to overcome the dragon you will die until everyone is fed up.
And @Gorbacz:
RD said the GM warned everyone what this module will mean (though probably not enough) - so I wouldn't conclude that he is clueless.Finally, I know the old Dl modules and these are RPG garbage all around - quite literally the proofe that good stories often do not make good RP-Adventures because of plot holes and railroading galore.
Not to nitpick with folks, but the modules predate the novels by a little bit.
I remember buying them as a teenager, trying to run them... A decent read, but none of us had a 'feel' for the characters.insert Catch 22: Novels come out, some folks read them, fall in love with this or that PC...but then know about what will transpire in the damned modules.
I think we made it halfway into DL1.
RD, at least you have Cleric options...In 1st Ed, the DL World had NO Clerics, other than the NPC bad guys ...Ugh.
-Uriel
Pet Peeve: I am STILL Mad that my favoriet character, Sturm Brightblade...a lvl 6 fighter with a Con 17 (6D10+18) had 29 HP.... He would have had to roll a '2' every single Level... there's well-designed Module-building for you.
WTF
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Regarding new players joining and if the dragon would still recognise the original offenders..
..could this all be an effort to take out your wizard?
Drama!
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......Regarding new players joining and if the dragon would still recognise the original offenders..
..could this all be an effort to take out your wizard?
Drama!
I doubt it. He could have done that a long time ago while leaving the rest of the party intact.
In order to continue the suggestions I must know at which point of the campaign are you . Have you found/recovered the dragonlances or the dragon orbs? Have you visited the Knights of Solamnia ? Have you gone to the High Clerist Tower ? Can you tell me if the Red Dragon is the female Harkiel the Bender as it is described in the module or converted to a CR 19 Red Dragon by the Pathfinder Rules? And last tell me precisely what books are allowed for play
In case you didn't see or read my last post i quoted the things that need explanation. Again i eagerly wait for an answer :)
Not to nitpick with folks, but the modules predate the novels by a little bit...
Yes, right, but Dragonlance was from the start conceptualized as a multi-product-range-line.
So the Adventures were written with the story in mind rather than with roleplaying in mind. The books/comics took longer to finish but were started around the same time.
In case you didn't see or read my last post i quoted the things that need explanation. Again i eagerly wait for an answer :)
I have (and continue to) actively skip over your post because it appears to be chock full of spoilers.
From what little bit I was unfortunate enough to glance at in passing, however, we have not done any of what you describe. Had you read the thread more closely, you should already be aware that we are headed to the far south to recover an anti-dragon orb artifact. You would also be aware that I did not want any spoilers (as I have not played through the modules nor have I read the novels).
I have (and continue to) actively skip over your post because it appears to be chock full of spoilers.From what little bit I was unfortunate enough to glance at in passing, however, we have not done any of what you describe. Had you read the thread more closely, you should already be aware that we are headed to the far south to recover an anti-dragon orb artifact. You would also be aware that I did not want any spoilers (as I have not played through the modules nor have I read the novels).
Are you kidding me? The only "spoiler" is the mentioning of the High Clerist Tower and even for that i doubt. If you thought that everything was a spoiler your DM runs very badly the campaign or he runs the campaign with no sense of balance (i believe both of them having read the module). Also i read the previous posts carefully but the scene with the refugees is before the attack of the Blue Dragons at the Red Dragon Inn. Finally you could be more cooperative and told me at least the books you are allowed to use....
But lets see what can you do and what you cant :
I take for granted that the dragon attacks alone, otherwise there is no chance to win. Also that all players have all their spells/abilities/powers available meaning that you all have rested. Finally I assume that only Pathfinder stuff is used.
Before combat the party must get buffed. Enlarge person magus, overland flight wizard, fly to magus and ninja, haste to all, greater invisibility to all (this will be countered but it may work for 1-2 rounds), stoneskin to magus, protection from energy or resist energy magus, protection from evil to all, displacement or blur to magus. If you could cast heroism it would be great.
Magus with those buffs should have against the dragon with his +3 Dragonbane, Icy Burst Waraxe and Arcane Accuracy, Arcane Pool wielded Two-Handed:
7(base)+5(str)-1(size)+7(arcane accuracy)+1(haste)+3(weapon enchantment) +2(dragonbane property)+2(from flank)+1(weapon focus)= +27/+22 to hit for [2d6+7(str)+3(enchantment)+2(dragonbane)]+1d6cold(icy burst)+2d6(dragonbane)= (2d6+12)+2d6+1d6cold
The magus is the only one possible of inflicting damage to the dragon with these builds, as both ninja and monk can only hit with a 20 on the dice.
Ninja and monk go as soon as possible near to the dragon while invisible and you cast web with the two ends attached to them or better attach the web to dragon's wings(they will pass the saving throw with ease but the dragon may fail, thus becoming grapled). Your role after that should be to cast enervation or touch of idiocy until you pass the spell resistance. Ninja and monk try to hit, and magus goes for the flank bonus to hit for sure almost 50%+ of the time.
With these builds and abilities/feats/powers its the only thing that may damage the dragon, and that for about 2-3 rounds when he will cast see invisibility or even worse antimagic field and then he wipes out all of you.
Tell you DM to read carefully the campaign because the conversion of anything from 3.x to Pathfinder might ruin the balance. And specifically your DM is really harsh with his players. Speak with him and tell him to use the original dragon for the encounters.
Have a nice session, gl hf
best regards, wild_captain (and really sry for any spoilers)
In case you didn't see or read my last post i quoted the things that need explanation. Again i eagerly wait for an answer :)I have (and continue to) actively skip over your post because it appears to be chock full of spoilers.
From what little bit I was unfortunate enough to glance at in passing, however, we have not done any of what you describe. Had you read the thread more closely, you should already be aware that we are headed to the far south to recover an anti-dragon orb artifact. You would also be aware that I did not want any spoilers (as I have not played through the modules nor have I read the novels).
I suggested this in the other thread you had "Phasers set to stun".
You need to split the party up into two groups with both groups having access to scry(or some other means to communicate with one another) and teleport.
This way when Dragon attacks group A, group A teleports to group B, and vice versa. Then the group splits up again with both of them riding night and day towards the orb.
Unless the dragon can split into two you will reach the orb.
It's a good idea.
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If it was a goblin I would buy it TWO beers!.
..count 'em!
I hated Lord of the Rings. It was boring and full of plot holes. All they did was run away, all the way to the very end. Even in the end it was never adequately explained why they didn't just fly to Mordor on the damned eagles to begin with.
You need to read the books to understand why the eagles didn't help in the first place (agreed, it doesn't make any sense in the movies). As for the module, if you and all the other players don't like it, you should tell it to your GM instead of wasting your time not having fun. Maybe one of you will then start running a better module for the group.
As i said before the DM has bad sense of balance, the original Red Dragon a CR 20 creature has 33 AC and 24 SR and up to 5th lvl Spells vs 8 players of 9 lvl each (or 4 players 11 lvl each),while the Dragon that the DM is using is a CR 19 (by Pathfinder rules) who has 38AC and 30 SR and up to 7th lvl Spells vs 4(?!?) lvl 10 players (and only one of these 4 is suggested, not that this is a bad thing, but the original party had a milion times more chances of confronding her)
Also at this time of the campaign the Red Dragon has no business with the PCs (except they visited her place, also highly unlikely because they dont even know the High Clerist Tower, oups "spoiler")
Spoiler? Sry I forgot that the DM forgot to introduce the PCs to some important NPCs who are supposed to give information to the party - and even accompany them - information that even without meeting these NPCs the party should have heard (Diplomancy, Knowledge, Invistigating - Gather Information)
I'm really sry for not being polite, but..........
As for LotR books > movies
We've been discussing this for 3 or 4 days on the boards. What did your DM say when you told him your concerns?
We've been discussing this for 3 or 4 days on the boards. What did your DM say when you told him your concerns?
Haven't had a chance to talk to him yet, really. He lives in town and I'm out in the country so we only really meet up on the weekends.
And with all due respect for the GM, I actually encouraged him to use the Bestiary dragons rather than those in the module. I thought it would save him a lot of conversion work.
I had no idea they would be significantly more powerful. He told me the one in the module was CR 20 so I naturally assumed we were getting a break against the Bestiary dragons (I have not seen the stats for the one in the module).
We've been discussing this for 3 or 4 days on the boards. What did your DM say when you told him your concerns?Haven't had a chance to talk to him yet, really. He lives in town and I'm out in the country so we only really meet up on the weekends.
And with all due respect for the GM, I actually encouraged him to use the Bestiary dragons rather than those in the module. I thought it would save him a lot of conversion work.
I had no idea they would be significantly more powerful. He told me the one in the module was CR 20 so I naturally assumed we were getting a break against the Bestiary dragons (I have not seen the stats for the one in the module).
I do think the dragon in this case, assuming he is faithful to the module, should be beyond the party's means to defeat. I think the issue, according to spoilers I have read, is that he has edited the module either intentionally or on purpose, or you have left out information from the story accidentally.
And with all due respect for the GM, I actually encouraged him to use the Bestiary dragons rather than those in the module. I thought it would save him a lot of conversion work.
I had no idea they would be significantly more powerful. He told me the one in the module was CR 20 so I naturally assumed we were getting a break against the Bestiary dragons (I have not seen the stats for the one in the module).
Really there is no problem with that, but the DM must adjust the party in such a way that they are able to hurt her at least. I'm sure after you adress your concerns to the DM (and he listens) the campaign will be much more fun to play.
I do think the dragon in this case, assuming he is faithful to the module, should be beyond the party's means to defeat. I think the issue, according to spoilers I have read, is that he has edited the module either intentionally or on purpose, or you have left out information from the story accidentally.
If he was faithful to the whole module everything that I mentioned wouldn't be conceived as spoiler :).
And with all due respect for the GM, I actually encouraged him to use the Bestiary dragons rather than those in the module. I thought it would save him a lot of conversion work.
I had no idea they would be significantly more powerful. He told me the one in the module was CR 20 so I naturally assumed we were getting a break against the Bestiary dragons (I have not seen the stats for the one in the module).
Really there is no problem with that, but the DM must adjust the party in such a way that they are able to hurt her at least. I'm sure after you adress your concerns to the DM (and he listens) the campaign will be much more fun to play.
I do think the dragon in this case, assuming he is faithful to the module, should be beyond the party's means to defeat. I think the issue, according to spoilers I have read, is that he has edited the module either intentionally or on purpose, or you have left out information from the story accidentally.If he was faithful to the whole module everything that I mentioned wouldn't be conceived as spoiler :). ** spoiler omitted **
With regard to spoilers: I guess a CR 15 version or a special CR 14 would have been more appropriate then. That makes it unlikely but probable that the PC's have a chance.
Enter the Alchemist
10th level half orc alchemist kitted for bombing
fast bombs discovery allow multiple bombs
rapid shot (+1+, improved TWF (+2) and haste (+1)
base 2 attacks
total 7 bomb attacks , the modifers to hit on an optimised build are more than enough as we only need to hit AC5 touch which means baring rolling a 1 you hit with all 7.
assuming an 20INT which I think is avg for a 10th level +5 to dmg plus another +5 from favoured class bonus
each bomb does 5d6+10dmg
frost bombs discovery makes it cold dmg plus it needs to make 7 fort saves against your bomb DC or be staggered, 1 is always a fail
7 bombs = 35d6+70dmg = 192dmg avg plus vunerbility +50% = 288dmg
so thats 288/362
Round 2 another 288dmg
576dmg dmg done total = dead dragon
2 alchs and its over in 1 round
if all 5 character take the leadership feat 5 lv8 cohort alchemists will also do it in 1 round.
Enter the Alchemist
From what I hear, I wouldn't be surprised if the dragon had resist energy.
Edit: By default, ancient red dragons do have resist energy. Expect resist 30 against everything.