10th-level party VS CR 19 red dragon! HELP!


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Phasics wrote:

Enter the Alchemist

10th level half orc alchemist kitted for bombing
fast bombs discovery allow multiple bombs
rapid shot (+1+, improved TWF (+2) and haste (+1)

base 2 attacks

total 7 bomb attacks , the modifers to hit on an optimised build are more than enough as we only need to hit AC5 touch which means baring rolling a 1 you hit with all 7.

Trying to figure out how you are getting 7 bombs in a round.

Base is 2 attacks.
Fast bombs allows you to take both those BAB attacks, instead of being limited to one.
Rapid shot only works on ranged weapons, (fast bombs only says "This functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon." I might be argued into buying this one)
You aren't holding "alchemist bombs" in your hands, so TWF does nothing.
Haste gets you to 3 bombs.
(Maybe 4 tops if you can convince me rapid SHOT works on thrown weapons.


how does rapid shot not work on thrown weapons? daggers?


cranewings wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:

I knew another guy who dealt with a red dragon that was eating local virgins at first level. He and his party just helped rid the town of virginity and the dragon left.

Be creative.

I would have loved to play that.


Pendagast wrote:
how does rapid shot not work on thrown weapons? daggers?

Works on daggers, its a ranged attack. Not a "Throw splash weapon" attack which bombs are.

As far as I can tell, if you're a rogue with quick draw and rapid shot, you still can only throw a single alchemists fire in a round, regardless of if your BAB is +6 or if you have multiples of them (even in 2 hands).


Tarantula wrote:
Pendagast wrote:
how does rapid shot not work on thrown weapons? daggers?

Works on daggers, its a ranged attack. Not a "Throw splash weapon" attack which bombs are.

As far as I can tell, if you're a rogue with quick draw and rapid shot, you still can only throw a single alchemists fire in a round, regardless of if your BAB is +6 or if you have multiples of them (even in 2 hands).

try quick draw, rapid shot, weapon juggle and organized inventory... I think thats what they were getting at when they came up with those feats at least.

Isn't the fast bombs discovery explicitly for the purpose of supplying enough bombs to take advantage of being able to launch more via more attacks and feats?


Pendagast wrote:
you have multiples of them (even in 2 hands).

try quick draw, rapid shot, weapon juggle and organized inventory... I think thats what they were getting at when they came up with those feats at least.

Isn't the fast bombs discovery explicitly for the purpose of supplying enough bombs to take advantage of being able to launch more via more attacks and feats?

Fast bombs: "The alchemist can prepare and throw additional bombs as a full-round action if his base attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional attacks. This functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon."

No. It is to let him throw more than 1 bomb as a function of iterative attacks.


From the APG FAQ:

If an alchemist has the Fast bombs discovery, can he use Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, haste, and similar abilities and effects to add more attacks?

As written, yes, all of these apply because fast bombs "functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon." (SKR, 8/18/10)

Liberty's Edge

Verik Jarrow wrote:
Your magic is bouncing off him, why? Because of SR presumably? I suggest buying a scroll of Gate and having someone UMD it, its reasonable to use such tactics in a silly challenge like that. Gate in a solar sit back.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/gate

And the Solar would help you why?


Here's the deal sparky, you need to get a dragon lance, Isn't this what Tanis did?

Liberty's Edge

Pendagast wrote:
Here's the deal sparky, you need to get a dragon lance, Isn't this what Tanis did?

I'm betting this is a role play issue, as in you can't always blow things up, sometimes you have to solve the puzzles and get the items you need to be able to beat the dragon.

But the basic Red Dragon Pro-Tips

1. Vulnerable to cold. Shoots fire. Make yourself less vulnerable to fire and focusing on the cold. If you are using Spell Compendium, the broken orb spells work nicely, since they are just touch attacks with no SR.

2. Fly is clumsy, so it hovering isn't a great option, and even invisible it should be loud considering it's size. Plus, if you do damage it has to make a fly check, which is at -8 since it is clumsy fly with more minuses for size.

3. Good luck on your fear save...

Like I said, it is probably something your party failed at role-playing in the rush to blow stuff up.


Umbral Reaver wrote:
Phasics wrote:
Enter the Alchemist

From what I hear, I wouldn't be surprised if the dragon had resist energy.

Edit: By default, ancient red dragons do have resist energy. Expect resist 30 against everything.

They don't have resist 30 everything as default just immunity fire and resist energy spell as a spell like ability

so this assumes the dragon prebuffs before attacking the party.

but you can even get around that.

Force bombs
can't take advantage of the vulnerability to cold but the dragon can't resist it with anything he has available.

5d4+10 x7 = 157dmg of force damage, plus 7 save vs prone, and prone is quite good vs a dragon they can't fly from prone have to spend an action getting up. also the prone is not vs CMB its DC so their insane CMD doesn't come into play and 1 is always a fail.

with the lower dmg output you'd need minimum 2 alchemists to have a reasonable chance of the damage going on fast enough not to mention available bombs/day. but an alchemist with alchemist cohort lv8 would work.

its still the best option to actually put the hurt on a dragon from lv10


Of course the Red Dragon Counter in Dragonlance is of course Silver dragons who need little convincing to help kill a Red dragon.


Phasics wrote:
Umbral Reaver wrote:
Phasics wrote:
Enter the Alchemist

From what I hear, I wouldn't be surprised if the dragon had resist energy.

Edit: By default, ancient red dragons do have resist energy. Expect resist 30 against everything.

They don't have resist 30 everything as default just immunity fire and resist energy spell as a spell like ability

so this assumes the dragon prebuffs before attacking the party.

but you can even get around that.

Force bombs
can't take advantage of the vulnerability to cold but the dragon can't resist it with anything he has available.

5d4+10 x7 = 157dmg of force damage, plus 7 save vs prone, and prone is quite good vs a dragon they can't fly from prone have to spend an action getting up. also the prone is not vs CMB its DC so their insane CMD doesn't come into play and 1 is always a fail.

with the lower dmg output you'd need minimum 2 alchemists to have a reasonable chance of the damage going on fast enough not to mention available bombs/day. but an alchemist with alchemist cohort lv8 would work.

its still the best option to actually put the hurt on a dragon from lv10

You can't knock a flying creature prone in Pathfinder. Since the dragon is always in the open, I doubt he has much reason to land.


Phasics wrote:
Umbral Reaver wrote:
Phasics wrote:
Enter the Alchemist

From what I hear, I wouldn't be surprised if the dragon had resist energy.

Edit: By default, ancient red dragons do have resist energy. Expect resist 30 against everything.

They don't have resist 30 everything as default just immunity fire and resist energy spell as a spell like ability

so this assumes the dragon prebuffs before attacking the party.

but you can even get around that.

Force bombs
can't take advantage of the vulnerability to cold but the dragon can't resist it with anything he has available.

5d4+10 x7 = 157dmg of force damage, plus 7 save vs prone, and prone is quite good vs a dragon they can't fly from prone have to spend an action getting up. also the prone is not vs CMB its DC so their insane CMD doesn't come into play and 1 is always a fail.

with the lower dmg output you'd need minimum 2 alchemists to have a reasonable chance of the damage going on fast enough not to mention available bombs/day. but an alchemist with alchemist cohort lv8 would work.

its still the best option to actually put the hurt on a dragon from lv10

All the dragon has to do is cast resilient sphere and he is basically immune to attacks. Good luck dispelling it.

It is obvious they can't force this, they need to RP it out.


where is bard and his black arrow when you need it?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Pendagast wrote:
where is bard and his black arrow when you need it?

The dragon used a portion of his vast hoard to buy him off.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
You can't knock a flying creature prone in Pathfinder. Since the dragon is always in the open, I doubt he has much reason to land.

Wrong, you can't succeed on a trip attack against a flying creature. Though, I personally would rule if the dragon was flying, it'd have to make the fly check or lose altitude described in the fly skill. I'd let force bombs double the altitude lost (this would be how I run it, not RAW).

By RAW, if it failed its reflex save against a force bomb, it immediately hits the ground prone.


Tarantula wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
You can't knock a flying creature prone in Pathfinder. Since the dragon is always in the open, I doubt he has much reason to land.

Wrong, you can't succeed on a trip attack against a flying creature. Though, I personally would rule if the dragon was flying, it'd have to make the fly check or lose altitude described in the fly skill. I'd let force bombs double the altitude lost (this would be how I run it, not RAW).

By RAW, if it failed its reflex save against a force bomb, it immediately hits the ground prone.

I was thinking of tripping which ends with the creature being prone. So even though I was wrong on that part, the dragon should simply have to make a Fly check to avoid being knocked to the ground. He wouldn't be instantly knocked to the ground, contrary to what it looks like it says. The dragon should have to make a DC 25 Fly check. He isn't just teleported from flight to prone on the ground. There are times when the GM needs to use a bit of common sense if something doesn't make sense and isn't clearly explained by the rules. Think of it this way, if an alchemist was fighting the dragon a mile in the sky, would the dragon be dropped to the ground instantly just because it was knocked prone? What if the dragon was 2 miles up? There are times when RAW requires a bit of common sense. There is no need to do anything other than require the Fly check. No need to double the altitude lost, gravity doesn't change because the dragon was hit by a bomb.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
There are times when RAW requires a bit of common sense.

I'm sorry where is the RAW saying this?

There are rules for stalls and free falls as far as I recall,

James


Gignere wrote:
Phasics wrote:
Umbral Reaver wrote:
Phasics wrote:
Enter the Alchemist

From what I hear, I wouldn't be surprised if the dragon had resist energy.

Edit: By default, ancient red dragons do have resist energy. Expect resist 30 against everything.

They don't have resist 30 everything as default just immunity fire and resist energy spell as a spell like ability

so this assumes the dragon prebuffs before attacking the party.

but you can even get around that.

Force bombs
can't take advantage of the vulnerability to cold but the dragon can't resist it with anything he has available.

5d4+10 x7 = 157dmg of force damage, plus 7 save vs prone, and prone is quite good vs a dragon they can't fly from prone have to spend an action getting up. also the prone is not vs CMB its DC so their insane CMD doesn't come into play and 1 is always a fail.

with the lower dmg output you'd need minimum 2 alchemists to have a reasonable chance of the damage going on fast enough not to mention available bombs/day. but an alchemist with alchemist cohort lv8 would work.

its still the best option to actually put the hurt on a dragon from lv10

All the dragon has to do is cast resilient sphere and he is basically immune to attacks. Good luck dispelling it.

It is obvious they can't force this, they need to RP it out.

yeah and the party are immune to his attacks too , resilient sphere is not an I win button for the dragon.


james maissen wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
There are times when RAW requires a bit of common sense.

I'm sorry where is the RAW saying this?

There are rules for stalls and free falls as far as I recall,

James

The assumption that was made was that the dragon could be hit with the force bombs and be prone and on the ground if he failed any of his reflex saves. I don't think that is how it is meant to work. Sure, if the dragon is low enough to the ground it makes sense but to simply assume that it would happen without any context (the dragon could be flying very high), doesn't make sense. The dragon would have to fall to the ground, not automatically end up prone. This is where I believe the Fly skill is supposed to come in handy.

I'm not saying that it's not a viable tactic. It is very viable. I just don't think that it should be assumed that it will automatically throw a flying dragon prone just because he failed a Reflex save.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
james maissen wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
There are times when RAW requires a bit of common sense.

I'm sorry where is the RAW saying this?

There are rules for stalls and free falls as far as I recall,

James

The assumption that was made was that the dragon could be hit with the force bombs and be prone and on the ground if he failed any of his reflex saves. I don't think that is how it is meant to work. Sure, if the dragon is low enough to the ground it makes sense but to simply assume that it would happen without any context (the dragon could be flying very high), doesn't make sense. The dragon would have to fall to the ground, not automatically end up prone. This is where I believe the Fly skill is supposed to come in handy.

I'm not saying that it's not a viable tactic. It is very viable. I just don't think that it should be assumed that it will automatically throw a flying dragon prone just because he failed a Reflex save.

hehehe ok I'm going make it real simple for people

Alchemist/s throws 17 force bombs at the dragon. the dragon makes 17 ref saves and is not knocked prone the dragon however has taken 382damage and is dying, prone is irrelvant.

Prone is not the lynch pin of the force bomb approach ;)


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
I'm not saying that it's not a viable tactic. It is very viable. I just don't think that it should be assumed that it will automatically throw a flying dragon prone just because he failed a Reflex save.

Consider the range increment of bombs is 20 feet. That means MAX range is 100 feet. Considering his breath weapon is range of 60 feet. If the alchemist throws when he comes in to breath fire, thats 60 feet. Getting hit while flying is a fly check or lose 10 feet, so its very easy the dragon could be on the ground (and prone if failing the save) from being hit by 7 bombs (full round attack)


Tarantula wrote:


Consider the range increment of bombs is 20 feet. That means MAX range is 100 feet. Considering his breath weapon is range of 60 feet. If the alchemist throws when he comes in to breath fire, thats 60 feet. Getting hit while flying is a fly check or lose 10 feet, so its very easy the dragon could be on the ground (and prone if failing the save) from being hit by 7 bombs (full round attack)

That's if the dragon is ever in range.

Dragons have lots of HD.

That gives them high skills and numbers of feats.

An easy choice for a dragon is fly-by attack.

All that said, you're right in that you want to target the dragon with touch attacks that don't require SR.

Personally I'd still go with using shadows to kill it.

-James


james maissen wrote:

That's if the dragon is ever in range.

Dragons have lots of HD.

That gives them high skills and numbers of feats.

An easy choice for a dragon is fly-by attack.

All that said, you're right in that you want to target the dragon with touch attacks that don't require SR.

Personally I'd still go with using shadows to kill it.

-James

Best recommendation I have, since they can use their hero(or whatever they called it) points to act out of turn, is to have the alchemist(s) do that once the dragon is in a reasonable range.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Many of you wanted me to keep you updated on how our game was going.

Well, I finally had a solo session with my GM last night, and boy do I have a story to tell.

Well, after the dragon Ember annihilated my party on the open plains, I grabbed up Wilhelm's corpse and teleported away. The only other survivor being the party monk.

We started from there. I arrived back in the dwarven city from two games ago, specifically in the old inn room that I stayed at before. I surprised a dwarven mother and child who screamed in shock and fear at the burnt man carrying a charred corpse who suddenly appeared before her.

Her scream brought the attention of some other (surprisingly well armed) inn patrons who burst into the room to see what was the matter. Before anyone could say or do anything, I eeped out a "help us" before dramatically collapsing on the floor.

I woke up a while later in what appeared to be a shared hospital room. I quickly identified the head nurse and called her over. Small pleasantries were exchanged, but ultimately I asked about my friend (she gave me a saddened look to which I responded, "so he is dead then"), she asked how I was doing (great), and informed me that the king desired an audience with me if I thought I was well enough to see him (I was).

I thanked her and left to see the king.

Upon my arrival we exchanged formalities and I gave him the rundown of our mission to find the dragon orb, a powerful artifact we would use against the dragon armies (especially that b#*&! Ember). Sadly, Ember caught us on the open plain at night, and, to my knowledge, I was the only survivor forced to teleport away with the corpse with the most loot (hey, I'm CN).

I also explained to him my desire to look for volunteers among his people and the refugees they were housing in order to continue my quest for the orb.

He said he would do all that he could to help me, including but not limited to, making a grand announcement to his entire kingdom about the quest and the need for heroes. While he did that, I prepared for the coming re-quest by playing "merchants and makers" in his metropolis.

When I returned, the king had gathered 3 dwarven heroes (all "axe and board" level 7 fighters) to accompany me. He also allowed me access to his personal sage, who knew of a small village FAR to the north full of people who were thought to know the location of the dragon orb.

The sage sent magical messages to the village, and made arrangements for them to meet us out on the open tundra. He also brought with him two scrolls of teleport. In only a day after my encounter with Ember, I was already on the move again.

After taking proper precautions against cold weather, the four dwarves and I teleported over a thousand miles north, arriving in an endless patch of snow. The three fighters immedietly spread out, looking for potential threats while I used prestigitation to change my red robes into blue/white robes (to better blend in with the snow and sky) and then flew high into the sky with overland flight to get an idea of our surroundings. We were to meet the "snow people" at this location, though we had arrived rather early due to teleportation (the snow people having to get there via snow skiffs--small sailing vessels that sail over snow).

I spotted something off in the distance--what appeared to be a crashed snow skiff. I used my message spell to inform the dwarves far below of what I had found, and for them to meet me at the site. I then flew on ahead to investigate (made easy due to my Perception ranks and having every knowledge skill in the game).

I first determined that there was no immediate threat in the area. The crew were all dead, many of them scattered about. Some were torn apart, as though by a vicious animal and frozen, while others were simply frozen in strange positions (such as in a dead run).

My heal checks determined that some were mauled by a large creature (one was even snapped in half at the waist) while others were simply flash frozen (there's my 28 intelligence at work ;P ). The sailing skiff had been snapped in half.

I tried to determine what kind of creature or magic from this region could cause such a mess, and after some thought (knowledge: checks) determined that it was either a frost worm or a white dragon.

The dwarves caught up then, and with their combined Survival expertise, were able to determine that neither a frost worm or a white dragon was still in the area. They also came to the realization that a terrible blizzard was fast approaching.

I searched the skiff in hopes of determining whether these dead humans were the snow people we were to meet with, or were some other unfortunate victims. The great bear furs and trade items in the back of the skiff lead me to believe they were hunters and traders, not the representatives of the snow tribe.

We crawled into the snow skiff's compartments as best we could, covering the walls with the thick furs and burying the exterior under mounds of snow in order to trap the heat. I also found a small primitive stove, which I was able to repair with a few mending spells. Soon we had a fire going.

The blizzard lasted four days. Though we were protected against the cold with magic, we weren't about to travel to mountainous regions in a blinding/howling blizzard only to walk off a cliff to our deaths.

So we waited it out. Well, sort of. On day two I prepared some scrying spells and teleportation spells. I scryed my other companions and quickly determined that the only one yet living was the monk.

I teleported to her and asked her to re-join the quest for the dragon orb. She called me suicidal and said she didn't want to have anything to do with it. The dragon Ember was after those who slew her master, of which I was the only one left. She asked me to leave her before I got her killed. (The player decided weeks ago that, the monk was going to be retired, I just finalized it in game.)

So I left her and rejoined the dwarves in our modest igloo/skiff thing. because conditions were tolerable enough to prepare spells, I asked the GM if I could do some magic item crafting. After all, the dwarves predicted the blizzard would last several days yet and crafting time in this campaign is a RARE commodity.

Always one to be prepared, I had already bought thousands of gold worth of "magic item crafting supplies" though I could just as easily have teleported and bought some. :P

I asked my GM if it was okay for me to craft some dust of choking and sneezing. He said "sure" so by the time the blizzard ended I had four such uses of dust of choking and sneezing to use as "get out of jail free cards" should an overwhelming enemy pounces on us (which is OFTEN the case).

Finally, the blizzard ended. Soon after, the representatives arrives on their own snow skiff. After some minor greetings, they took us to their village where I met with their chieftain and (powerless) shaman.

Luckily, I didn't have to explain much to the chief, as the king's sage had already communicated much of my need.

THEN THIS HAPPENED. <--- additional story in another post, please keep that story's replies in that thread, and keep dragon discussion in this thread.

Anyways, now I am at the village, joined by a new party of powerful PCs, one of which is a dhampir ninja with the Dastardly Finish feat and a crap ton of sneak attack (which if you don't already know, essentially means auto win when combined with the dust I created).

Bring it on Ember. Bring it on.


Ravingdork wrote:
Dragonslie wrote:
Spoiler fest
What makes it worse is that the only way for us to survive these encounters is to teleport away. However, you can't really teleport to a new place you've never been before, so we almost always end up teleporting to an old town we just came from. To add salt to the wound, the module, being based on novels (which I have not read so NO SPOILERS!) does not grant XP, but instead levels up characters at predetermined points within the story. That means we can never get more powerful during our dragon encounters and eventually overcome him, nor can we progress because the damned dragon keeps pushing us further back!

Teleport to the last major settlement you've been to and then find a merchant/traveler whatever who is from a city you want to go to. Example; find some guy from Palanthas (may not have spelled that right) and have him describe some landmark in extreme detail to the wizard, then teleport there. (This presumes an at least semi-reasonable amount of time before the dragon finds you.)

Liberty's Edge

You might want to consider the following option.
Summoner Lvl 10 get Summon Monster V as a standard action.
Summon 1d4+1 Lantern Archons. Next round Cast the spell Summon Monster V. Note: You can only have 1 use of you spell like summon monster active at a time, but nothing prevents you from casting it from you spell list. Repeat 1d4+1 Latern Archon. Repeat. Follow with haste. Hopefully the die rolls have been kind to you, BYI any caster can get in on the summoning action, and I will assume with average roll you'll have 9 or more Latern Archons. Activate Gestalt Mode. Have fun. Or skip Gestalt Mode and have 9 Hasted Lantern Archons firing 3 beams of light each per round doing 1d6 points of damage per ranged touch attack (that bypasses all damage reduction and SR. You may not suceed in killing the bastard, but you will severly bloody it nose at roughly 27d6 per round that only has to hit it's touch AC. Also feel free to look up Gestalt Mode and see the nastiness that will be brought about there. FYI, I shouldn't have to say it, but keep the archons spread out UNLESS you use gestalt mode. That way they won't be wiped out with a single spell or breath weapon.
I've got 2 suggestions I'll post later. I'm using a crappy keyboard and it's driving me crazy.


Don't know if you're still allowed to use 3.5 stuff but if you are, the Draconomicon has a ton of really useful stuff in it for fighting dragons.

If you're specifically looking to get the drop on the dragon there is a seventh level spell called Hide from Dragons. You could spellcraft the scroll and it would protect your whole party from all dragon senses for a couple of hours with one casting.

Other than gunslingers and alchemists, I guess I would just suggest recuperating in areas the dragon's size can't get to, such as under the earth in a narrow cave system.

Luring it under the ocean after casting water breathing is another option. Red dragons don't breathe water, don't have swim checks, and without water breathing cannot cast spells with verbal components. Limited Wish might solve the dragons problems under water, but then it's wasting time and spells on making itself into an aqua dragon. Creatures like Giant Moray Eels, Orcas, and Large Water Elementals would have a tactical advantage as each of the dragons physical attacks would deal half damage under water. The rest of the party should have some sort of Touch of the Sea (APG) to keep them mobile. The dragon would have to either take a tactical risk to fight you in an unfriendly environment, or leave you alone to make more preparations.

Liberty's Edge

Back with another slightly more twisted solution. Granted, this would only work because of the fire subtype for the Red Dragon, but you would need a ranger or other 2 weapon fighting specialist and 2 rods of extinguish flames. The rods come with 10 charges. If you touch a fire subtype creature with the rod, for a cost of 3 charges you do 6d6 point of damage. Haste said fighter, then teleport him into melee range. At 10th level, with improve 2 wpn fighting and hast you'll do 5 touch attacks for 6d6 each. No save. Again, won't kill him, will probably kill the fighter, but guarentee that he'll be the one retreating at the end of that round. If your fight survives he's still got one more touch for 6d6 left in the off hand rod. 36d6 will probably do around 144 - 180 in total, likely a good 4th to a 3rd of its HP. Follow up with a en mass summoning of lanter archons and watch those tiny little tie fighters take down the deathstar, or the dragon in this case.


I assume you've tried obvious things like using yourself as bait to draw it into a trap you've created using Marvelous Pigments. The "nose hair" gambit also seems to have failed on this dragon.

In the end you will probably have to figure out what the module wants you to do to level up and find some weapon that lets you even out the odds.

Have you tried recruiting a high level dragon killing ranger by promising him a majority of the dragon's hoard on the dragon's death?

If you have to fight the dragon, I would try to find a way to immobilize it. A huge steel cable net might hold him long enough to do some real damage. The net and an apparatus for launching the net should be something you could create with marvelous pigments. Make a big pit, fill it with razor sharp spikes, draw the dragon down and fire the net over the dragon so it gets netted and falls in the pit, then release the catch holding the steel bars so they cover the pit, trapping the dragon within. Adding a "Silence" spell on the net would be a good trick. Of course you'd have to build and conceal all this, but your marvelous pigments should help there.

Or something like that. Lure it into a big cave and drop steel bars while you escape out a crack in the rock.

In our experience the only way we've been able to defeat high level dragons with lower level characters is to first immobilize the dragon. As long as it is free to fly and fight, you're probably going to lose. Tie it down and then you can blast away at will. Then all the things like summoning Archons becomes even more effective.


Ok, I haven't gone through the entire thread extensively, so, apologies if any of these comments are repeats.

First - in these old modules/versions (Dnd 1.0 and 2.0), an ancient Red had 80-88 hp? Dragons got a huge power boost into 3.0/3.5 - which has continued into PF. So, the DM has blown it in adapting the module to the power level of the characters.

But, if you're stuck with it anyways, time to cheese things up. Assay Resistance to give you a better shot at overcoming SR. Then, I know there is a spell out there that drains DEX. Find it. Use it. Dragons have crappy dex - you drain it and they fall out of the sky. Then sit back from distance and bombard with magic arrows (Greater Magic Weapon cast by a cleric or a mage).

Another uber-cheese maneuver - it will cost you a character, but, given the losses to date, I'd go for it: Get/build a portable hole. Get/build a Hewards Handy Haversack. I don't have the rules in front of me, but sticking one in the other will trigger a nice rift that draws all creatures within "x" feet into another plane/dimension. I don't believe there is a save. Load up a couple characters with these bombs and get one, just one of em, up close and personal with the dragon (use energy protection spells). Then go for a trip and take the dragon with you.

If the DM brings the darn thing back from another plane/dimension - I then suggest you grab his module and burn it. Just so he knows what its like to get burned a bit himself.

:-)


You already have the answer to your problem in your bags, loaded dice (DC 30), just pop those out at the gaming table :)


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For this situation you need to do what you always need to do when you can't take something in a fair fight. Make sure that it is not a fair fight. To this point the dragon has held the strategic initiative and engaged when and where he chooses. The party desperately needs to reverse that or die. I won't go into individual tactics because there are many, many options. Just follow these general guidelines:
1. You pick when and where - do not engage on its terms
2. Do your homework - research the beastie for strengths and weaknesses so you can
3. Be prepared for its most common attack forms
4. Hit first and hard
5. Maintain the initiative - make him react to your actions
6. Fight dirty
7. Always have a quick way out so you can escape if things go wrong

As I always tell my group when I'm party leader: If we end up in a fair fight I haven't done my job right.

If you're a scrawny 95 lb freshman challenged to a fight by a 220 lb senior, do you stand tall and obey Marquis of Queensbury rules? No. You kick him in the balls, run like hell, grab a baseball bat and lay him out if he chases you.


If crunch ain't gonna work:

Make a deal with it, surely there's something it covets more than revenge?

Have a palaver and sell the good guys out. Or do the old switcheroo when the party's in a better position to handle it.

Sounds like you're not meant to kill this creature. Yet.


Ravingdork wrote:

Our GM is running our party through a hella-hard series of modules. We are a 10th-level party of four made with 25-point buy who make use of the Hero Point optional rules. Some of us are over geared.

These modules have a reoccurring villain: a CR 19 ancient red dragon. The dragon is systematically hunting us all down.

In v3.5, it broke down a wall, won initiative and killed everyone in our party with its opening breath weapon except for my wizard (polymorphed into a fire-immune hellhound at the time), our cleric (delay death), and the party druid (protection from energy from the cleric). We escaped by the skin of our teeth. The druid reincarnated the party ranger later on, leaving only one party fighter permanently killed (the spirit refused to return).

The cleric later retired, we gained a wear-rabbit monk (no joke) and wizard/fighter eldritch knight, and our party "upgraded" to the Pathfinder rules.

We encountered the dragon's "rider" and slew him in one on four combat. Now the dragon wants revenge for his (master's?) death.

He ambushed us at a castle a few weeks ago, with us only surviving because we all used hero points to act out of turn, jump off the castle wall simultaneously (out of the area of the dragon's killing breath weapon), and teleport away to safety.

Tonight he ambushed us on the open plain, using invisibility, Flyby Attack, and his breath weapon to put half the party in the hurt locker before we could even respond. Luckily, we all passed our saves and we weren't killed outright. Furthermore, the monk and and eldritch knight had evasion (the latter from a ring) and took no damage. The dragon took his time mauling us with Greater Vital Strike/Power Attack melee attacks.

My spells bounce off this guy like I'm shooting spit balls. We've only been able to hit him with the ranger's favored enemy (dragon) dragonbane bow on a natural 20. We are SO outmatched it's not even funny.

Tonight my wizard escaped (via teleportation) as did the wearbunny monk (disappearing into knee high...

this is a great post. The dang game should be mean at times. Its dndfinder not wussies and weirdos!

Sometimes its best to just leave the area til you can try to beat it.

If you get frustrated enough you guys should make a do or die assault on the bugger. Never retreat!

This has to be the greatest post I've read on these forums.

booger=boy

Grand Lodge

cranewings wrote:


I knew another guy who dealt with a red dragon that was eating local virgins at first level. He and his party just helped rid the town of virginity and the dragon left.

Its just brutal what adventurers are called upon to do sometimes...


Helaman wrote:
cranewings wrote:


I knew another guy who dealt with a red dragon that was eating local virgins at first level. He and his party just helped rid the town of virginity and the dragon left.
Its just brutal what adventurers are called upon to do sometimes...

I was thinking the same thing the first time I read that a while back. I think the intent was that they took the virgins away from the town, but that is not how I would have solved it. :)


Assay Resistance
Terrible Remorse

Profit.

Edit: This only works if you're allowed to have Assay Resistance, as I don't believe it exists in PF, but it was in one of the splat books for 3.5 (Complete Arcane, I believe).


That sounds pretty difficult! But maybe if you make some sort of contest with it that you cant loose... that might do something... You could also trick it maybe...

I dunno, all I know is that you cant defeat it in combat...

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