Uh, Ravingdork, are you actually emjoying the game? If you are frustrated enough that you were going to try to get TPK'd and the GM said he'd just get you to reroll and keep going, your solution shouldn't be ingame, you need to have a serious chat with your GM and remind him that his job is to create an enjoyable game for the players, not to torment them for his own enjoyment like a kid pulling off ant's legs.
Just my 2cp, but from what you've been saying, I would've told the guy to go forth and multiply with himself in an inappropriate manner then left a long time ago.
I remember killing an Ancient Red Dragon with a single hit with my 10th level Fighter / 1st level Ranger.
My trick? The entire Power Attack/Leap Attack chain and a lucky crit with the highest crit multiplier weapon I had.
I'm not saying this is your best bet, but it is possible...
Uh, Ravingdork, are you actually emjoying the game?
When the red dragon isn't around, I enjoy it quite a bit.
Going on the assumption that you're still using some 3.x stuff with your Pathfinder, I at least have some ideas how the wizard could be more effective against such a monster.
As already mentioned, the Orb spells would work great for direct damage, as would any Conjuration (Acid) spells, as they ignore SR.
If you really want to hand this thing it's tail on a platter though, here are a couple of (really cheesy) options...
If you can get to a shop and pick up a couple scrolls...
Assay Spell Resistance (Spell Compendium or Complete Arcane, Sorc/Wiz 4) - for 1 round/level, you get +10 to beat a specific creature's SR.
Plus either:
Avasculate (Spell Compendium, Sorc/Wiz 7) - you'll have to cast this one from the scroll, but it's sure to make the dragon have second thoughts. The target's current hit points are halved. If they make a Fort save, they avoid being stunned for a round.
Or
Explosive Cascade (Magic of Faerun version, Sorc/Wiz 4) - You'll need a way to make this do cold damage instead of fire, but if you can, it's how I once killed a great wyrm white dragon with a 10th level wizard in one shot. Just bounce the iceball up and down every square the dragon inhabits for 10x10d6 cold damage. The GM will probably say hell no to this one though, as the spell has since been errata'd in Spell Compendium so you can't pull this kind of cheese with it.
Maybe Cold energy, Extended, Maximized (from rod) acid arrows? 12 damage for 8 rounds at 10th level. Ranged touch attack, no save. Rince, repeat.
What feats do you have? Can you make scrolls that any of your allies can use?
Maybe Cold energy, Extended, Maximized (from rod) acid arrows? 12 damage for 8 rounds at 10th level. Ranged touch attack, no save. Rince, repeat.
What feats do you have? Can you make scrolls that any of your allies can use?
No allies that are left alive.
The dwarven magus one of the players is making might have some ability to share spells though.
I don't have any advice for you- but i must say you are doing better than I would be. Absent a good way to hide (which is still just a ride down the ole extremely blatant train track) I can't really say as I'd still be part of that campaign.
I Do Not know your DM but it just seems to me that he's decided to play "lets kill the PC's!" occasionally through the campaign. He's already shown through unlimited limited wishes that anything you think of to harm his PC murdering beastie will be automagically defeated.
My advice? Seriously? Stand still, wave at the dragon, and let it eat you. When everyone is dead, look around the table and ask what campaign they want to do next. Preferably with a different DM.
When the DM plays "to win", he always wins- even if he's winning by playing cat and mouse games with the PC's. How do you kill a dragon 9 CR above your APL? You don't. You can't. Even if you *do* it'll be deux ex machina (the spelling of which I might have just butchered) so in fact you still didn't actually defeat it.
I'd either talk to the DM about what the problem is (is he tired of the game or did he do a poor job porting a monster across editions, or what?) and failing that..
Flail arms, die, next campaign please.
In reality there is no way your group can or will kill the dragon. The DM has already shown you that by limited wishing away your ideas or dismissing them out right (the awesome poison plan).
-S
Uh, Ravingdork, are you actually emjoying the game?When the red dragon isn't around, I enjoy it quite a bit.
What common circumstances (if there are any) usually surround an appearance of the dragon?
You're level 10 you say? With poison that not even the dragon can beat? Find (or make) the following 2 people: A cleric of the travel domain and a ranger with max favored enemy dragon. The ranger should have Pin-point targeting and poison every arrow under the sun. Have your wizard use a scry to find the dragon, then have the party put some nice to-hit buffs on the ranger (just to be safe.) Cleric uses one teleport to get the three of you about 110 ft away from the dragon. (Out of his aura and blindsense ranges) Instant surprise round. Ranger uses standard action to fire a poison arrow at the dragon's touch AC, which is easily less than even the favored enemy bonuses. The dragon should now be poisoned. You/Cleric uses standard action to teleport the hell away. Repeat until dragon dies from poison. If you really wanted to, you might be able to cut out the cleric if you feel like you have enough spells. I know nothing about the module, but that's just an option.
Questions:
How does he always find you? Divinations? Why don't you have misdirection, nondetections and other such funnies protecting you or at very least a lead plated rooms that are almost sure to block divinations?
How does a dragon cast the wishes? He must have the components at hand, not just on some abstact account.
How come that you can't teleport anywhere else? You can always scry on some place far away and at worst you'll appear a bit off unless you really botch the spell a lot. If the place is a corn field, then it won't really matter much.
I'm glad that you are enjoying the game for the most part, from your descriptions it sounded like you were dealing with a killer gm on a power trip. If that's not the case, here are a few more constructive suggestions:
1: Talk to your gm and let him know how frustrated you are by the situation. He might want to rethink his approach with the dragon somewhat, maybe throw in an npc with some advice, or something to throw you a bone.
2: Have you tried getting someone to smuggle you out of town? Maybe you can get past the dragon by hiding in the cargo of a merchant caravan, or maybe split up and travel to a rendevous point in disguises. If those methods aren't enough, maybe try having someone smuggle you out in a portable hole. At tenth level you can probably find some way of surviving in there such as chain casting life bubble. The portable hole plan should foil most attempts at scrying since you are in an extra dimensional space, and no longer on the material plane.
3: Surrender. If you are frustrated enough that you were considering suicide by dragon, this might be a good option... worst case scenario the dragon eats you, sounds to me like you are ok with that, but more likely it will advance the story. An imprisoned party can make for some great roleplaying opportunities, and it can give the gm a chance to give you the clues you need to advance on the way out, or even have the place you are imprisoned at, or near, the mcguffin.
4: Tedious teleports. Try making a point of memorizing spots to teleport to as you travel. That way when the dragon forces you to port back to town to escape, you can wait a bit, then port back out to a spot near where you were. Travel a bit more while memorizing, escape back to town, port back to the trail, lather rinse repeat as needed.
Hope that helps, it doesn't sound like you can kill the dragon, so try and think outside of the box to evade it. Good Luck!
I don't know much about the setting, but this APL 10 vs. CR 19 thing sounds a tad insane. I usually hate cliches, but for a monster with that kind of power, I can fathom how one might search for a weapon powerful enough to stop it. One that would be at a level appropriate to that of the dragon, rather than the PCs. Say, a +5 keen dragonbane longsword for example, flavored with some fancy legendary name. I imagine such a weapon would either be in the dragon's possession, or out of his reach, but under heavy guard.
Only an exaggerated example, of course - it's your GM's choice, as always. Maybe just suggest to him that your party needs some kind of edge against the dragon, one that you could all fight for. It probably involves tweaking the AP, but as is, the situation just seems insurmountably dangerous.
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I usually hate cliches, but for a monster with that kind of power, I can fathom how one might search for a weapon powerful enough to stop it.
It would depend on how we define 'weapon'.
I think the main problem has been a failure of imagination on the PC's part and an unfortunate tendency to fall into 'tried and tested' patterns of behaviour.
It happens to us all one time or another!
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Note: The above is written under the assumptions that your DM is your friend and not actively trying to kill the party for kicks and/or giggles.
A "weapon" could be anything from a sword to an ancient dwarven mecha to some chick in a box who could explode the dragon with a single uppercut.
Very true though. My point is essentially that there is a point at which having good tactics just isn't good enough.
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A "weapon" could be anything from a sword to an ancient dwarven mecha to some chick in a box who could explode the dragon with a single uppercut.
Very true though. My point is essentially that there is a point at which having good tactics just isn't good enough.
Aye - personally if I was the DM and the players were showing signs of distress (and assuming I liked them/they were not jerks) I'd drop a hint or three.
Keep the crowd entertained etc etc...
I'd have hoped the players could talk to the DM and the DM would listen and some kinda dialogue would develop, one that addresses the groups enjoyment of the game and their current dissatisfaction with..
...aaaaaah you know what? This.. I just don't think I can type this without sounding like a patronising jerk. It's 'common sense' stuff. See! Even that remark sounds jerk-esque!
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Hmm. Maybe their DM is loving 'this' and giggles him/her/miscself silly each night at their player's frustration? >_<
O_O
I used to DM the old Dragonlance modules for our group (way back in the day) and never cared for them too much. They were incredibly lethal iirc and we went through a lot of PCs until we finally just said the heck with it and moved on to some other line of modules.
I don't specifically recall running the module in question, although it does sound very familiar (it may have been the last one we played, frankly), but in any case it sounds like the DM is running an unbeatable monster (until the appropriate time in the story when it becomes beatable) and you should do your best to avoid it. Trying to come up with ways to beat it that will only get handwaved away is futile.
If the dragon is killing the fun (literally!), then speak to the DM about easing up on the TPKs and have the dragon's presence create more panic than death. As others have pointed out, if the dragon really wanted the PCs dead then they would be dead. Having it show up and slaughter half the party is not doing anything to advance the story. Something needs to give, and it sounds like it's in the DM's hands.
Good luck!
Aye - personally if I was the DM and the players were showing signs of distress (and assuming I liked them/they were not jerks) I'd drop a hint or three.
Why would you game with jerks? You should be gaming with friends and you should all be having a good time. Why waste your gaming nights with frustration!
If the party is wiping again and again, and players are considering accepting the TPK then it is not up to you as a player to design a tactical solution. The DM is failing! He/she is not using the story element of the dragon properly or in this case they seem to be over using it.
I am familiar with the Dragonlance adventures. The dragon is not meant to be wiping the party, I don't want to spoil your adventure with spoilers, but know that in a case like this it is a DM problem and simply saying "well it says in the module this is what happens" is not good enough. The dragon is meant to be a story device not an encounter to continually test the party's endurance.
Players should want to advance the plot and be curious of things to come and not contemplating the next time the dragon arrives rushing into his maw to end the suffering. This screams DM error to me.
Here are some ideas to take down the high AC of the dragon.
Use Cyclopses! If you cannot find any use summon natures Ally V. They have an ability called Flash of Insight: "...Once per day as an immediate action, a cyclops can peer into an occluded visual spectrum of possible futures, gaining insight that allows it to select the exact result of one die roll before the roll is made."
So they attack and pick a natural 20! One guaranteed hit with possible crit.
Summon, oil of bless weapon on axe(auto confirm crits on evil creatures), enlarge person, Potion of Lead Blades, fly, it charges does 18d6+42 (Power Attack). Average 105 damage maxes out at 150.
So for 3 first level spells, one 3rd, and one 5th you can deal 105 damage to an evil guy no matter how high the AC is!!!
Just using the summon spell and oil of bless weapon he will auto crit for 9d6+39: average = 70 with a max of 93.
What common circumstances (if there are any) usually surround an appearance of the dragon?Uh, Ravingdork, are you actually emjoying the game?When the red dragon isn't around, I enjoy it quite a bit.
It's usually out in the open.
I dug up the old adventure paths. Sounds like your on path one of 3.
that being said, i can now tell you the mechanic he is suppose to use.
the dragon has a 10 percent chance plus 10% chance every 6 hours of showing up, During this stage I believe you are suppose to be escorting refuges.
teleporting away from the dragon sorta of ruined things.... you have a TON of peasants with you and there are "combat" rules in the module for allowing you to deal with the dragon and 'drive" it away. Because of the story I can understand why it would "Hunt down" the party after dealing with the peasants.(its supposed to make 2 attacks vs the refuges, the PC's are suppose to hold it off while the refuges escape, and then the PC's are suppose to hide throughout the woods and escape.) at this point you should be using a hexagonal map and telling your DM which squares you would like to go into with the refuges.
That being said. At this point you've failed the Module. ask your DM for a "restart" from where you were suppose to escort the refuges.
(I know this is semi of a spoiler but knowing where you are in the game and what you are suppose to be doing should help you.)
We're past that. The refugees are safe underground with the dwarves. They are staying there until (1) they are driven out or (2) we find a way to stop the draconians and there dragon masters.
I'm glad that you are enjoying the game for the most part, from your descriptions it sounded like you were dealing with a killer gm on a power trip. If that's not the case, here are a few more constructive suggestions:
I think he IS on a small power trip. If he wasn't, he'd be using the story elements properly rather than having had two- to three near-TPKs already. When he killed everyone but myself and the monk this time, (leaving me as the sole original character) I stood up and gleefully said "Yay! I survived again!"
The GM immediately responded "I could have killed you if I wanted. I could have just as easily had the dragon charge you instead of the ranger, but I didn't because I knew we would all have to listen to you whine about why it didn't charge the ranger." My small amount of joy evaporated I, in a barely controlled voice, told him that he could kill any of our characters at any time in any manner for any reason and his statement just now meant exactly JACK S~!+.
1: Talk to your gm and let him know how frustrated you are by the situation. He might want to rethink his approach with the dragon somewhat, maybe throw in an npc with some advice, or something to throw you a bone.
He already had an old man maguffin (who looked strangely familiar) approach us in the city streets and tell us "your destiny lies within the library." No surprise, we found info about anti-dragon weapons at the library! How lame/cliche is that? Obviously, the GM is aware of our frustrations.
2: Have you tried getting someone to smuggle you out of town? Maybe you can get past the dragon by hiding in the cargo of a merchant caravan, or maybe split up and travel to a rendevous point in disguises. If those methods aren't enough, maybe try having someone smuggle you out in a portable hole. At tenth level you can probably find some way of surviving in there such as chain casting life bubble. The portable hole plan should foil most attempts at scrying since you are in an extra dimensional space, and no longer on the material plane.
I'll think about it.
3: Surrender. If you are frustrated enough that you were considering suicide by dragon, this might be a good option... worst case scenario the dragon eats you, sounds to me like you are ok with that, but more likely it will advance the story. An imprisoned party can make for some great roleplaying opportunities, and it can give the gm a chance to give you the clues you need to advance on the way out, or even have the place you are imprisoned at, or near, the mcguffin.
We've done this already. We escaped while killing a dozen draconians, rescuing hundreds of refugees, AND killing a number of extremely powerful, ableit sleeping, dragons with team coup de graces.
4: Tedious teleports. Try making a point of memorizing spots to teleport to as you travel. That way when the dragon forces you to port back to town to escape, you can wait a bit, then port back out to a spot near where you were. Travel a bit more while memorizing, escape back to town, port back to the trail, lather rinse repeat as needed.
More or less what we've been doing.
Hope that helps, it doesn't sound like you can kill the dragon, so try and think outside of the box to evade it. Good Luck!
Thanks for the advice!
The DragonLance modules for 3.5 are TERRIBLE. I DM'd Dragons of Autumn and although it looked and read awesome it is incredibly railroady, far worse then anything Paizo puts out. If the PCs do anything unexpected (and they always do) you have to wing it and try and get them back on course without making it to obvious. The 2E books were worse in that the DM was instructed to just send increasing large waves of draconians at the PCs until they went in the correct direction.
The plot line is very cool but you have to understand you are playing out a story and you can't deviate from the plot, even when it makes no sense.
Now I don't recall any red dragons in Dragons of Winter but my advice is to try to pick up any hints the DM drops and run with all haste in that direction. The dragon is not going to be killed until the plot wishes it. The best way to play these books is with a group of players who are familiar with the plot and want to play out that plot, anyone else will be frustrated and confused. Just ask my players.
A 5 star GM may be able to pull it off as written, but no one else can.
The DragonLance modules for 3.5 are TERRIBLE. I DM'd Dragons of Autumn and although it looked and read awesome it is incredibly railroady, far worse then anything Paizo puts out. If the PCs do anything unexpected (and they always do) you have to wing it and try and get them back on course without making it to obvious. The 2E books were worse in that the DM was instructed to just send increasing large waves of draconians at the PCs until they went in the correct direction.
The plot line is very cool but you have to understand you are playing out a story and you can't deviate from the plot, even when it makes no sense.
Now I don't recall any red dragons in Dragons of Winter but my advice is to try to pick up any hints the DM drops and run with all haste in that direction. The dragon is not going to be killed until the plot wishes it. The best way to play these books is with a group of players who are familiar with the plot and want to play out that plot, anyone else will be frustrated and confused. Just ask my players.
A 5 star GM may be able to pull it off as written, but no one else can.
Except we were going on the right path (else why have a maguffin put us on that path?) and the dragon STILL came after us. And no dragons in the module? Prior to the red dragon, we just fled from 5 blue ones that annihilated an inn we were meeting up at!
I imagine the red one is just a revenge schtick and everything else is module storyline, which is fine with me, I just wish our heroes could feel more heroic every once in a while, even if it meant heroically running away.
It's one thing to have the dragon nearly TPK the party once to show its power and then have us flee from it every other time we encounter it (that's using story elements to great effect). It's quite another to kill the party off time and time again.
Once the dragon gets my wizard, Haylannar, that's it for the revenge quest. I'm the last remaining survivor of the original group, and the last one he can blame for the murder of his master. Knowing that I will only get the next group of heroes in danger, perhaps I will "heroically" pass on the quest to other young heroes while leading the dragon away for a final one on one confrontation. Kind a like Gandalf and Strider did to Sauron in Lord of the Rings, to give Frodo a chance.
My only question: CAN SOMEONE ELSE DM??
Seriously,I'm not just being a smartalec. Are the other players as fed up as you?
My only question: CAN SOMEONE ELSE DM??
Seriously,I'm not just being a smartalec. Are the other players as fed up as you?
I think many of the other players have turned away from whatever frustrations they may have had and have turned their energies towards the excitement of trying some new character classes.
I'm waiting for it to all implode when the dragon next attacks and kills all the new characters before they get much of a chance to use them.
The ranger went through 5 animal companions before he himself died. Some of them literally didn't get an attack off before being taken out of the game. That was particularly frustrating for my friend.
The thing is,the bigger the power gap between the party and the dragon,the easier it is for a DM to fudge rules and prevent you from killing the dragon. I'm not saying that he will do that,but it seems to me that if he railroads you as much as it sounds like,then you won't kill the dragon until he deems it thematically appropriate. Killing a recurring villain is satisfying,but how satisfying will it be if you kill it because the DM decided it was time for you to do so?
That dragon should be dead by now. There were a few ways in that scenario to kill him despite his insane CR.
The only color dragons in Winter are white and red. Autumn was red and black.
The thing is,the bigger the power gap between the party and the dragon,the easier it is for a DM to fudge rules and prevent you from killing the dragon. I'm not saying that he will do that,but it seems to me that if he railroads you as much as it sounds like,then you won't kill the dragon until he deems it thematically appropriate. Killing a recurring villain is satisfying,but how satisfying will it be if you kill it because the DM decided it was time for you to do so?
It's not.
I'm going to try and lead it way from the new party and kill it with dust of sneezing and choking and a ninja with Dastardly Finish. If the GM saves the dragon from that then I will at least know it was always hopeless. Can't cast limited wish when you're stunned.
Anyone know a way around possible contingencies? All I got is dispel magic I think.
** spoiler omitted **
The dragon did a flyby attack with his breath while we were atop the castle. The damage was so high it literally killed EVERYONE outright. (Damned thing keeps getting the jump on us!) So we all used hero points to act out of turn, move out of the area (jumping off the castle walls) and teleporting to safety.
In dragons of autumn we encountered red and black (and possibly others, my memory is fuzzy). In Winter we've encountered red and blue so far (in the first 5 pages according to the GM).
The thing is,the bigger the power gap between the party and the dragon,the easier it is for a DM to fudge rules and prevent you from killing the dragon. I'm not saying that he will do that,but it seems to me that if he railroads you as much as it sounds like,then you won't kill the dragon until he deems it thematically appropriate. Killing a recurring villain is satisfying,but how satisfying will it be if you kill it because the DM decided it was time for you to do so?It's not.
I'm going to try and lead it way from the new party and kill it with dust of sneezing and choking and a ninja with Dastardly Finish. If the GM saves the dragon from that then I will at least know it was always hopeless. Can't cast limited wish when you're stunned.
Anyone know a way around possible contingencies? All I got is dispel magic I think.
How much damage will the ninja do? With a Fort of +22 the dragon will have a good chance to save methinks. Main piece of advice would be to not let the DM in on your plan. Sounds like you can't surprise the dragon without surprising the DM.
I think he IS on a small power trip. If he wasn't, he'd be using the story elements properly rather than having had two- to three near-TPKs already. When he killed everyone but myself and the monk this time, (leaving me as the sole original character) I stood up and gleefully said "Yay! I survived again!"The GM immediately responded "I could have killed you if I wanted. I could have just as easily had the dragon charge you instead of the ranger, but I didn't because I knew we would all have to listen to you whine about why it didn't charge the ranger." My small amount of joy evaporated I, in a barely controlled voice, told him that he could kill any of our characters at any time in any manner for any reason and his statement just now meant exactly JACK s&~!.
If I was in this situation I would have transformed into a rage elemental.
Kudos to you for not flipping the table and going for a drop kick.
I don't have any advice besides laugh, leave and never play with this person again. I've played with DMs that fudge rules to kill players. It's stupid.
Realize a powerful dragon probably has some significant spellcasting ability. The CR 19 dragon in the book can cast up to 7th level spells. That's quite powerful considering the dragon is massively powerful *without* the spells.
You're not really getting burnt so much by the dragon as by the surprise of the dragon getting the jump on you. If you could prepare to fight the dragon, you could at least survive him for a round or two to get away. Even better, if you could somehow prevent the dragon from locating you, that would be ideal.
Think about all the spells he could be using to get the jump on you.
Hint: there are a lot of them. . . but greater scrying kind of "jumps" out (:
Anyone know a way around possible contingencies? All I got is dispel magic I think.
Only a few things can save you from the dust of sneezing and choking. Life Bubble, Immunity to poison, delay poison, no need to breath (necklace of adaptation, clear spindle ioun stone) are the only ones that come to mind.
A dispell magic can shut down the necklace and ioun stone. An arcane sight up before you pull the trick to see if he has any protective spells up will let you know if he is open to the trick.
Once you shut down those, then spring the dust on the dragon. Don't throw it or anything so the DM does not say "you can't do that" Dim door next to it (perferably 200+ ft up with a fly spell going) then move action open the container.
the dragon plummets 200 ft taking 20d6 then the rest of the party has 5d6 rounds to pound no him.
If you have a bag of holding and a portable hole once he is down stunned place the bag of holding on the ground next to him propped open with a stick then use mage hand to slide the portable hole into the bag. "If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, the portable hole and bag of holding being destroyed in the process. "
As long as the dragon does not have plane shift he is taken care of for awhile.
Heck you have new guys coming in, they can have both, and suicide themselves on the dragon "BONNZAI!!!"
Or let the cleric do it he runs up pops both to the astral plane, and maybe he can get a plane shift off before dying. Either way dragon nullified.
The thing is,the bigger the power gap between the party and the dragon,the easier it is for a DM to fudge rules and prevent you from killing the dragon. I'm not saying that he will do that,but it seems to me that if he railroads you as much as it sounds like,then you won't kill the dragon until he deems it thematically appropriate. Killing a recurring villain is satisfying,but how satisfying will it be if you kill it because the DM decided it was time for you to do so?It's not.
I'm going to try and lead it way from the new party and kill it with dust of sneezing and choking and a ninja with Dastardly Finish. If the GM saves the dragon from that then I will at least know it was always hopeless. Can't cast limited wish when you're stunned.
Anyone know a way around possible contingencies? All I got is dispel magic I think.
Even if he has a contingency to come back to life the dust should still be on him active. He would just come back to life in a stunned condition. As for the contingency I would see that as the DM fudging spells to keep his dragon alive, or bring it back.
I would look at Arcane Sight to find out if the DM has a contingency from the school of conjuration. It won't tell you the exact spell, but healing type spells, and a spell to teleport the dragon away are the only things that I think would save it. If you don't see an aura that dragon should be dead or the DM should be prepared to give a good explanation.@CM:Coup de grace's are hard to save from. Even if the ninja has only a +2 strength and a short sword it can force a realtively high save.
I am assuming a:
Short sword 1d6(x2) + 5d6 sneak attack + strength bonus 2(x2)
Simplification (6d6 x 3.5) + 4 + 10(coup de grace)=35
PS: Even if it fails the first time just keep doing it until it works. Any touch spells can also be used to coup de grace if they do damage.
I don't have much to offer except that your DM is going to keep killing you over and over with that dragon who should already be dead.
PCs aren't going to prevail over a CR19 dragon unless the DM helps out a bit. The dragon should have acted over confident (because he's an awesome dragon and the PCs are puny) playing with the PCs a bit and not trying to slay them all on the first round. By the time the dragon realizes he's in trouble he's already vulnerable allowing the PCs to finish him.
When I ran it, it was a dangerous fight and one of the fighter PC went down. The party threw everything they had at it and the dragon decided to retreat even though it was winning because it was already severely wounded after fighting another dragon earlier and the party was landing enough hits to concern the dragon. The Hammer is a great Deus Ex Machina tool here.
The crazy part is that after this epic battle the PCs rush back to Thorbardin for the climax. Very tough.
The silver lining is that your are going to get to try out lots of different character classes. Good luck.
The thing is,the bigger the power gap between the party and the dragon,the easier it is for a DM to fudge rules and prevent you from killing the dragon. I'm not saying that he will do that,but it seems to me that if he railroads you as much as it sounds like,then you won't kill the dragon until he deems it thematically appropriate. Killing a recurring villain is satisfying,but how satisfying will it be if you kill it because the DM decided it was time for you to do so?It's not.
I'm going to try and lead it way from the new party and kill it with dust of sneezing and choking and a ninja with Dastardly Finish. If the GM saves the dragon from that then I will at least know it was always hopeless. Can't cast limited wish when you're stunned.
Anyone know a way around possible contingencies? All I got is dispel magic I think.
Even if he has a contingency to come back to life the dust should still be on him active. He would just come back to life in a stunned condition. As for the contingency I would see that as the DM fudging spells to keep his dragon alive, or bring it back.
I would look at Arcane Sight to find out if the DM has a contingency from the school of conjuration. It won't tell you the exact spell, but healing type spells, and a spell to teleport the dragon away are the only things that I think would save it. If you don't see an aura that dragon should be dead or the DM should be prepared to give a good explanation.@CM:Coup de grace's are hard to save from. Even if the ninja has only a +2 strength and a short sword it can force a realtively high save.
I am assuming a:
Short sword 1d6(x2) + 5d6 sneak attack + strength bonus 2(x2)
Simplification (6d6 x 3.5) + 4 + 10(coup de grace)=35
PS: Even if it fails the first time just keep doing it until it works. Any touch spells can also be used to coup de grace if they do damage.
Right,so the dragon needs a 13 to save,but they can coup de grace every round for 5d6 rounds. Gotcha.
The thing is,the bigger the power gap between the party and the dragon,the easier it is for a DM to fudge rules and prevent you from killing the dragon. I'm not saying that he will do that,but it seems to me that if he railroads you as much as it sounds like,then you won't kill the dragon until he deems it thematically appropriate. Killing a recurring villain is satisfying,but how satisfying will it be if you kill it because the DM decided it was time for you to do so?It's not.
I'm going to try and lead it way from the new party and kill it with dust of sneezing and choking and a ninja with Dastardly Finish. If the GM saves the dragon from that then I will at least know it was always hopeless. Can't cast limited wish when you're stunned.
Anyone know a way around possible contingencies? All I got is dispel magic I think.
Even if he has a contingency to come back to life the dust should still be on him active. He would just come back to life in a stunned condition. As for the contingency I would see that as the DM fudging spells to keep his dragon alive, or bring it back.
I would look at Arcane Sight to find out if the DM has a contingency from the school of conjuration. It won't tell you the exact spell, but healing type spells, and a spell to teleport the dragon away are the only things that I think would save it. If you don't see an aura that dragon should be dead or the DM should be prepared to give a good explanation.@CM:Coup de grace's are hard to save from. Even if the ninja has only a +2 strength and a short sword it can force a realtively high save.
I am assuming a:
Short sword 1d6(x2) + 5d6 sneak attack + strength bonus 2(x2)
Simplification (6d6 x 3.5) + 4 + 10(coup de grace)=35
PS: Even if it fails the first time just keep doing it until it works. Any touch spells can also be used to coup de grace if they do damage.
Actually that should have been 7d6 so the average is now about 16.
That means it is possible to roll high enough so that the dragon needs a nat 20.
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Aye - personally if I was the DM and the players were showing signs of distress (and assuming I liked them/they were not jerks) I'd drop a hint or three.Why would you game with jerks? You should be gaming with friends and you should all be having a good time. Why waste your gaming nights with frustration!
Aye aye, I hear ya! For the record I felt I needed to include the jerk qualifier for the sake of clarity! :)
This screams DM error to me.
Hell yes.
Has your character or any of the new ones coming in know where some green slime is? If so carefully put some in glass jugs with glass stoppers, and safely carry them in your handy haversacks.
Toss them on him (touch attack) does 1d6 con damage per round, can be scrapped off destroying the tool used, so he cannot use his own claws. Would have to burn it off. He can breath only every 1d4 rounds, so there are going to be rounds that he spend breathing on himself then you throw more no him. should take about 7 doses to drop his con below 0. The you fireball the pile to destroy the green slime.
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Has your character or any of the new ones coming in know where some green slime is? If so carefully put some in glass jugs with glass stoppers, and safely carry them in your handy haversacks.
Toss them on him (touch attack) does 1d6 con damage per round, can be scrapped off destroying the tool used, so he cannot use his own claws. Would have to burn it off. He can breath only every 1d4 rounds, so there are going to be rounds that he spend breathing on himself then you throw more no him. should take about 7 doses to drop his con below 0. The you fireball the pile to destroy the green slime.
Heeell, cast Protection from Elements or the like on the slime! :D
Has your character or any of the new ones coming in know where some green slime is? If so carefully put some in glass jugs with glass stoppers, and safely carry them in your handy haversacks.
Toss them on him (touch attack) does 1d6 con damage per round, can be scrapped off destroying the tool used, so he cannot use his own claws. Would have to burn it off. He can breath only every 1d4 rounds, so there are going to be rounds that he spend breathing on himself then you throw more no him. should take about 7 doses to drop his con below 0. The you fireball the pile to destroy the green slime.
Don't forget to loot the "infinite horde" the dragon carries around for all the wish spells.
...Actually that should have been 7d6 soThe thing is,the bigger the power gap between the party and the dragon,the easier it is for a DM to fudge rules and prevent you from killing the dragon. I'm not saying that he will do that,but it seems to me that if he railroads you as much as it sounds like,then you won't kill the dragon until he deems it thematically appropriate. Killing a recurring villain is satisfying,but how satisfying will it be if you kill it because the DM decided it was time for you to do so?It's not.
I'm going to try and lead it way from the new party and kill it with dust of sneezing and choking and a ninja with Dastardly Finish. If the GM saves the dragon from that then I will at least know it was always hopeless. Can't cast limited wish when you're stunned.
Anyone know a way around possible contingencies? All I got is dispel magic I think.
Even if he has a contingency to come back to life the dust should still be on him active. He would just come back to life in a stunned condition. As for the contingency I would see that as the DM fudging spells to keep his dragon alive, or bring it back.
I would look at Arcane Sight to find out if the DM has a contingency from the school of conjuration. It won't tell you the exact spell, but healing type spells, and a spell to teleport the dragon away are the only things that I think would save it. If you don't see an aura that dragon should be dead or the DM should be prepared to give a good explanation.@CM:Coup de grace's are hard to save from. Even if the ninja has only a +2 strength and a short sword it can force a realtively high save.
I am assuming a:
Short sword 1d6(x2) + 5d6 sneak attack + strength bonus 2(x2)
Simplification (6d6 x 3.5) + 4 + 10(coup de grace)=35
PS: Even if it fails the first time just keep doing it until it works. Any touch spells can also be used to coup de grace if they do damage.
Enchant the short sword. +2 or +3,maybe dragnosbane?
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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I've prepared for just such an event. I have 50+ doses of poison on my person at any one time, just in case I get eaten the others may have a chance. I've even distributed these poisons to other party members in case they get eaten.
The ranger was killed by a single greater vital strike power attack bite attack. Basically snapped him up leaving just his feet in his boots.
But since dragons don't have a swallow whole mechanic, the GM claimed that it missed swallowing the poison altogether (which not even the dragon could have withstood). The dragon flew away with the remains of the ranger's remains for who knows what reason.
You're doing it wrong. You are trying to do it by carrying poison. No dragon will eat your gear. You have to poison its food. Animate a dead bad guy and major image it to look like one of you. Then poison the s+!# out of it and try to get the dragon to eat it.
Has your character or any of the new ones coming in know where some green slime is? If so carefully put some in glass jugs with glass stoppers, and safely carry them in your handy haversacks.
Toss them on him (touch attack) does 1d6 con damage per round, can be scrapped off destroying the tool used, so he cannot use his own claws. Would have to burn it off. He can breath only every 1d4 rounds, so there are going to be rounds that he spend breathing on himself then you throw more no him. should take about 7 doses to drop his con below 0. The you fireball the pile to destroy the green slime.
My character actually possesses several such vials of green slime, and the GM knows it. I've used it on him, and he just wished it away after the first round of damage with limited wish.
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I don't have much to add, but this is definitely Dragonlance at it's best/worse.
SPOILER ALERT
I think I remember the books had it tricking an old and feeble red into attacking Verminaard's mount (the dragon they are facing), and they both crashed into a mountain, destroying the mountain. Pretty epic when told in a story. There's nothing you can do to stop it. The DM should have stopped it by now. The dragon probably should have been recalled to Nekra, and reassigned to another Dragon Highlord. Verminaard was level 15 as I recall. I wonder if Ariakand is a 20/20 wizard/cleric like before...He was a plot event kill also IIRC.
And that's why Dragonlance was great/awesome/terrible. Since dragons have been missing for thousands of years...there are ONLY old to ancients and older level dragons around, so every single dragon encounter is life or death experience.
/END SPOILER ALERT
My character actually possesses several such vials of green slime, and the GM knows it. I've used it on him, and he just wished it away after the first round of damage with limited wish.Has your character or any of the new ones coming in know where some green slime is? If so carefully put some in glass jugs with glass stoppers, and safely carry them in your handy haversacks.
Toss them on him (touch attack) does 1d6 con damage per round, can be scrapped off destroying the tool used, so he cannot use his own claws. Would have to burn it off. He can breath only every 1d4 rounds, so there are going to be rounds that he spend breathing on himself then you throw more no him. should take about 7 doses to drop his con below 0. The you fireball the pile to destroy the green slime.
I would stun him with the dust and then throw the green slime on him. It makes those coup de grace fort saves a lot harder.
@BYC: Why didn't you use the spoiler code?
["spoiler"] stuff to be spoilered ["/spoiler"]