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Thanks for the link, I've just ordered a copy to show my appreciation for Lou.
Kudos Lou. Write something, anything for Pathfinder, and i'll buy it for your trouble.It's not Pathfinder, but this is an absolutely fantastic work by Lou Agresta and you can get it here.
-Ben.
Wow, I just read the bottom line of this, and did a pretty epic facepalm before reading the preceding bit.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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Wow, I just read the bottom line of this, and did a pretty epic facepalm before reading the preceding bit.Thanks for the link, I've just ordered a copy to show my appreciation for Lou.
Kudos Lou. Write something, anything for Pathfinder, and i'll buy it for your trouble.It's not Pathfinder, but this is an absolutely fantastic work by Lou Agresta and you can get it here.
-Ben.
I think it might be time for you to take a vacation from this thread. Somewhere calming. Maybe you should start a thread on religion and politics in the off-topic forum?
I think it might be time for you to take a vacation from this thread. Somewhere calming. Maybe you should start a thread on religion and politics in the off-topic forum?
Guh. 'Expatriate RPG writers confuse me' perhaps?
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Wow, I just read the bottom line of this, and did a pretty epic facepalm before reading the preceding bit.Thanks for the link, I've just ordered a copy to show my appreciation for Lou.
Kudos Lou. Write something, anything for Pathfinder, and i'll buy it for your trouble.It's not Pathfinder, but this is an absolutely fantastic work by Lou Agresta and you can get it here.
-Ben.
Oops, yeah that would have been pretty darn epic!
For the benefit of anyone else out there risking serious facial injury, I meant to say that I have ordered a copy of Snows of an Early Winter, a Call of Cthulhu supplement written by Louis Agresta and published by Super Genius Games.
Complete is a long way from finished. I don't think it was edited, but converted to Pathfinder. If I'm correct, it's a manuscript which still needs storyboarding, layout, art, and then final proofing. That's a lot of investment. If I'm wrong, and all it needs is art, layout, and proofing, that's slightly less effort.
-Ben.
As far as I am aware, from the details supplied by Lou Argesta and others (including Nic) on the now gonegonegone Sinister forums, the work was essentially complete and ready for layput. Editing had been completed (and by editing, I mean just that, not conversion), artwork was almost complete (there was some talk of a few pieces remaining) and maps were done, except (IIRC) Lou was suggesting that one further map was probably still in order. So according to the information that we were given, there were just a few details remaining and layout. They'd even done a special appendix on sea warfare (or something like that), but this was still to be completed and was going to be released seperately.
It is completely bemusing why Nic hasn't put this out. I'm with the other guys above who said that if it ain't out by the end of this academic summer (so, say, October), then it probably ain't coming. Ever. And that would be sad.
I also agree with what someone else said. I think the majority of us who prepaid would rather get the product than a refund and that it does speaks volumes for what we think of Nic's ability. In spite of everything.
I also agree with what someone else said. I think the majority of us who prepaid would rather get the product than a refund and that it does speaks volumes for what we think of Nic's ability. In spite of everything.
That much is true for me, at least.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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They'd even done a special appendix on sea warfare (or something like that), but this was still to be completed and was going to be released seperately.
Just for clarification, I submitted the final 24,000 word draft of the "Fire as She Bears" rules in July 2010. It still needed final editing, approval and layout at that stage.
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Oh I agree it is highly disappointing. I was just saying I think talking legal action for a mere 30 bucks is a bit silly.Yeah I don't think legal action would be remotely worth it. I mean at this point I just consider it 30 bucks lost. It sucks and I am disappointed but it is not a huge deal and I live month to month.It's definitely not a huge deal dollar wise, i think more of the angst is over being mislead and let down so badly especially when others have lugged the cart over the hump and brought it to the finish line.
Problem is it's not just $30 bucks. I would be happy to send anyone a copy of my invoice showing I paid $112.76 for everything on his site available back on May 23, 2008, which included The Ebon Shroud, Cold Black, The Known Universe Gazetteer, and more.
Money back? Sure, I could use the hundred bucks to buy more Frog God and Legendary games stuff, plus Christopher's and Lou's Citadel of Pain, or half a dozen other products from guys busting their butts and deserving my money.
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For what its worth, I'm trying to stay on top of Nick. I call him and I email him at least once a week, but to date haven't heard back. I won't stop, even if I'm doing it when I'm 80.
@Dementrius -- apologies. I should have emailed you long ago. I had to stop work on Fire as She Bears when Sinister's future grew uncertain. I put substantial effort into revising and expanding the FaSB rules, including synthesizing them with the entry of the runner up. I also brought in an outside specialist who as a favor to me developed it further. Ultimately I just couldn't put more time into a project that might wind up owned by Sinister but take a back seat to so many other of Sinister's commitments.
I'm sure you figured that out for yourself, but I really should have let you know before now. Very sorry about that.
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Aww, thanks my man. What did you think?For the benefit of anyone else out there risking serious facial injury, I meant to say that I have ordered a copy of Snows of an Early Winter, a Call of Cthulhu supplement written by Louis Agresta and published by Super Genius Games.
I live in the UK, and it hasn't arrived yet!
Aww, thanks my man. What did you think?For the benefit of anyone else out there risking serious facial injury, I meant to say that I have ordered a copy of Snows of an Early Winter, a Call of Cthulhu supplement written by Louis Agresta and published by Super Genius Games.
Do you have any other projects in the works? I'll Pimp the Great City setting yet again- it is full of awesome.
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For what its worth, I'm trying to stay on top of Nick. I call him and I email him at least once a week, but to date haven't heard back.
Do you mean to say he does not even take your phone calls?
Though I understand your sentiment (and attachment to the project), at some point I would advise you to wash your hands of it. Hopefully well before you are 80. I don't think anyone really expects you to insist on making it such a continued factor in your life. At least I would hope not.
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Do you have any other projects in the works? I'll Pimp the Great City setting yet again- it is full of awesome.Aww, thanks my man. What did you think?For the benefit of anyone else out there risking serious facial injury, I meant to say that I have ordered a copy of Snows of an Early Winter, a Call of Cthulhu supplement written by Louis Agresta and published by Super Genius Games.
Thanks for asking (and thanks for the kudos) -- I do. Citadel of Pain, from Gaming Paper Adventures. Gaming Paper will release it at Gen Con, I believe. Patrons of the kickstarter project should be receiving their copies as I type (well somewhere that might be happening). As far as I know it'll be offered on Paizo.
I brought Rone Barton in on the project, and we co-wrote it. I really enjoy working with Rone. We were asked to write the first full-length adventure for Gaming Paper's new Mega Dungeon project. Chris West did the maps, which I thought was pretty cool.
Some people you probably never heard of are doing some shorter, PDF adventures for the Mega Dungeon too. I think their names were something like Greenwood, Cook, Schend, Cortijo... Forget about them. Citadel of Pain's where its at. ;)
Seriously, though, in the adventure we take classic monster races, seal a passel of them up inside a mad alchemist's abandoned fortress and bake until arcane forces and the pressure of cohabitation twist them into unrecognizable newness. A unique ecology/culture evolves, and then we give the players a Jules Verne-like drilling machine to bore their way inside. Shenanigans ensue. :)
If you're at Gen Con, Rone and I are doing a signing Friday, Aug 5 at the Gaming Paper booth from 2-3pm or so. I'll probably run part of CoP in a pick up game at some point. I rarely get to see people's reactions to the writing first hand, so the opportunity is too good to pass up.
PS Unlike Snows, Elvis is not in this adventure.
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For what its worth, I'm trying to stay on top of Nick. I call him and I email him at least once a week, but to date haven't heard back.Do you mean to say he does not even take your phone calls?
Though I understand your sentiment (and attachment to the project), at some point I would advise you to wash your hands of it. Hopefully well before you are 80. I don't think anyone really expects you to insist on making it such a continued factor in your life. At least I would hope not.
Phone tag. I hate phone tag. :(
Isn't Citadel of Pain only available to Patrons or can we purchase it on Paizo.com at some point?
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Oh I agree it is highly disappointing. I was just saying I think talking legal action for a mere 30 bucks is a bit silly.Yeah I don't think legal action would be remotely worth it. I mean at this point I just consider it 30 bucks lost. It sucks and I am disappointed but it is not a huge deal and I live month to month.It's definitely not a huge deal dollar wise, i think more of the angst is over being mislead and let down so badly especially when others have lugged the cart over the hump and brought it to the finish line.Problem is it's not just $30 bucks. I would be happy to send anyone a copy of my invoice showing I paid $112.76 for everything on his site available back on May 23, 2008, which included The Ebon Shroud, Cold Black, The Known Universe Gazetteer, and more.
Money back? Sure, I could use the hundred bucks to buy more Frog God and Legendary games stuff, plus Christopher's and Lou's Citadel of Pain, or half a dozen other products from guys busting their butts and deserving my money.
My only point was, that likely it would cost more in legal fee's than you would ever get back.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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@Dementrius -- apologies. I should have emailed you long ago. I had to stop work on Fire as She Bears when Sinister's future grew uncertain. I put substantial effort into revising and expanding the FaSB rules, including synthesizing them with the entry of the runner up. I also brought in an outside specialist who as a favor to me developed it further. Ultimately I just couldn't put more time into a project that might wind up owned by Sinister but take a back seat to so many other of Sinister's commitments.I'm sure you figured that out for yourself, but I really should have let you know before now. Very sorry about that.
That was my guess as to the state of play. No hard feelings, it's just so... *sighs* disappointing I guess.
Caves and Caverns
Bandits of the Rampant Horror
I also agree with what someone else said. I think the majority of us who prepaid would rather get the product than a refund and that it does speaks volumes for what we think of Nic's ability. In spite of everything.That much is true for me, at least.
Same here.
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Same here.I also agree with what someone else said. I think the majority of us who prepaid would rather get the product than a refund and that it does speaks volumes for what we think of Nic's ability. In spite of everything.That much is true for me, at least.
Same here.
Except I didn't prepay, but the sentiment is still there. I'm looking forward to this book.
Lou, any chance of a publsiher taking your manuscript filing the serial numbers off and releasing it as a high end product...
P.S. I don't care if its Rite Pub, adamant, louis or even if you decide to do it as your own imprint?
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For what its worth, I'm trying to stay on top of Nick. I call him and I email him at least once a week, but to date haven't heard back. I won't stop, even if I'm doing it when I'm 80.
Hi Lou,
I've been following your updates on RC from when the Sinister site was still up and I have to say that I appreciate your hard work on this project!
Lou, any chance of a publsiher taking your manuscript filing the serial numbers off and releasing it as a high end product...
That really does sound like the best thing to do in this situation. I wouldn't see why Nick would have an isuse with that.
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That really does sound like the best thing to do in this situation. I wouldn't see why Nick would have an isuse with that.Lou, any chance of a publsiher taking your manuscript filing the serial numbers off and releasing it as a high end product...
Maybe the people who paid for the creation of content might have an issue with that.
And who besides Nick knows who's still in the preordering list?If Nick had any interest in others releasing that content, he had several chances to do so.
Lou, any chance of a publsiher taking your manuscript filing the serial numbers off and releasing it as a high end product...
P.S. I don't care if its Rite Pub, adamant, louis or even if you decide to do it as your own imprint?
I believe he is refering to Fire as She Bears and not RC. The latter would violate legality.
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Lou, any chance of a publsiher taking your manuscript filing the serial numbers off and releasing it as a high end product...
P.S. I don't care if its Rite Pub, adamant, louis or even if you decide to do it as your own imprint?
Hey Steve,
Thanks for the thought, but it's technically not my manuscript, regardless of what sections I wrote and developed. Nick and Sinister own it. It's something I've been talked to Nick about and will bring up again.Lou
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I believe he is refering to Fire as She Bears and not RC. The latter would violate legality.Lou, any chance of a publsiher taking your manuscript filing the serial numbers off and releasing it as a high end product...
P.S. I don't care if its Rite Pub, adamant, louis or even if you decide to do it as your own imprint?
*facepalm* Of course Steve is talking about FasB. D'oh on me.
Well, legally, it's unclear who owns it. Nick and Sinister because it originated under the auspices of a Sinister Challenge while I was acting as a Sinister representative? Or me, because there was no formal challenge posting with clear rules presented and I developed and changed and wrote significant parts of it? Or the original contest winner and the runner-up, who expected it to be heavily modified and issued as a Sinister project? A very confused situation has now arisen.
My feeling is I'm ethically bound to check with Nick first. If he doesn't consider the FasB property to be his then yes, there is every chance of completing it and releasing it under another imprint.
Lou
My feeling is I'm ethically bound to check with Nick first. If he doesn't consider the FasB property to be his then yes, there is every chance of completing it and releasing it under another imprint.
Sounds good. But good luck in actually getting him to answer. :-(
That really does sound like the best thing to do in this situation. I wouldn't see why Nick would have an isuse with that.Lou, any chance of a publsiher taking your manuscript filing the serial numbers off and releasing it as a high end product...
Maybe the people who paid for the creation of content might have an issue with that.
And who besides Nick knows who's still in the preordering list?
If Nick had any interest in others releasing that content, he had several chances to do so.
Assuming Rite Publishing was doing it, I would just require some minor verification of purchase via preorder (there are many ways) and we would either provide a free copy or a copy at cost.
If no consideration was tendered to the author in exchange for the work then Sinister's claim to ownership would be extremely tenuous legally. (If Nick were even making such a claim, that is.)
Ala if Sinister never paid you for the manuscript then you own it. And my point would be to remove all Sinister IP from the product so at to avoid all legal entanglements.
If your truly concerned about it, my suggestion Lou is to send a certified letter via snail mail (we have friends in the UK who can do this if you don't want to pay the international mail cost). Informing Nick that he has 30 days which with to respond to your notification of intent or you consider ownership of the manuscript to belong to you.
And if a consideration needs to be made to the original authors we can work with that as well.
sure we could .....if I could come to the werewolf dinner!!!! (is tired of looking at miranda's pouty face every time it comes up that we were special guests last year and someone else gets to be special this year).
Isn't Citadel of Pain only available to Patrons or can we purchase it on Paizo.com at some point?
Citadel of Pain should be available through Paizo.com, most likely after GenCon. :)
Isn't Citadel of Pain only available to Patrons or can we purchase it on Paizo.com at some point?Citadel of Pain should be available through Paizo.com, most likely after GenCon. :)
Awesome! Consider it already purchased. :)
True love to all of Lou's work. But, I gotta say, this thread that I started has turned into the biggest bunch of hypothetical BS and, quite possibly, the biggest farce in all of RPG history. Nick, have you no shame? (That was just for show, I figured that out myself a few years ago).
Citadel of Pain!
Yes, I saw that. There goes more money!
My only point was, that likely it would cost more in legal fee's than you would ever get back.
Let me put this to bed now. DM is correct.
No lawyer would take that case. Really? A class action, where the class is a group of RPGers who preordered? That's not a class. It wouldn't get certified as a class action. Maybe, what, 100 people? So that leaves everyone to act individually. With total damages at $30 plus some statutory interest? Most plaintiff work (which is what this is) is done on a contingency fee (33%). So the lawyer would get $10?
This is a small claims case at best. Even if you filed (which usually costs some money, around $41 plus service of process here in my jurisdiction). So even that cost is more than your recovery. But lets say you did it on principle and got a default judgment. Even then, good luck executing on the judgment on a guy in a foreign country (or even out of your home state). And no, no judge would issue any "warrant" for his arrest from non-payment of a judgment. That's called debtor's prison, we don't have that in America :) (yes, you can get warrants of attachment in some circumstances, not this one)
A lawyer might write a nasty gram for $300 though. Not sure what help that would be.
I think its time to give up on the legal remedy, folks. :) And I am both a lawyer, and a judge. Hope that helps.
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I've been thinking about this situation for some time. I even talked with the Legendary Games guys a few months ago about reaching out to Nick as I see Bill has done. Good job, Bill. But it has become clear to me that this whole thing is just too overwhelming for Nick. People want nice clear logical reasons for what he is doing. I don't know him. But in my job I see people in similar situations--situations that have just gotten way out of control. And I can tell you they don't act logically and clearly in the way people here want.
It also seems everyone (well, almost everyone) wants to help Nick, to see him succeed. I sure do. He's written some of the best stuff I've ever read. He is very talented.
Keeping up the pressure on these boards or by private emails or calls will likely have the exact opposite effect.
My hope is this, people let the dust settle. Nick reestablishes contact with someone. Rehabs his name a bit with the RPG group. And if that helped him get his feet under him and turn to handling RC all the better.
Maybe backing off is the best way to see Nick's return, which I think is what everyone wants. Just a thought. And maybe back off a bit on the judgment of him. I mean, I can think of times in my life I've dug myself into a hole or made mistakes or done things I wish I hadn't. I'm pretty sure we all can. And saying "yeah, but not as bad as HIM" is hardly a helpful response. This industry is way too small to be out for blood. Don't waste that hate on an artist who has gotten himself in a hole.
Again, just my thoughts. Your mileage may vary.
Clark
Silly us customers for supporting the hobby.
And, as someone who spends $60+ a month on this RPG stuff, this thing turns me off big time on the entire industry. That and I already have too much bloat with rules. The focus should be on adventures, thus the need to look outside of Paizo/official releases.
Clark said what I said much more eloquently.
Well, it was the last threat we had.
It's a good thought, especially because it might just work.
Why, Lou? Because he hasn't had enough time to respond? Love your stuff, but I've been taking all my money out of RPG stuff. No more Open Design, Pathfinder, Rite Publishing, etc. There are so many other things to do that money that is set aside for fun.
Did you ever really have it?
Well, it was the last threat we had.
Ahhh, nice job being something I can't spell out here.
What is your problem?Good thing none of your avatars are in my games. DB
Come on RPG industry burn more bridges.
Successful Troll has no problem. Successful Troll is engaged in earnest discussion.