I've had those stats before, but it was by chance on a 4d6 - lowest method. Makes for a generally useful character, but not overpowered. I think people concentrate way too much on stats.
I prefer rolling recently, I used to be against it until all characters basically came out the "same".
So I advocate 3d6 re roll '1'.
that being said some of the better characters we have had have a 6,7,or 8 in one stat (usually because of a racial modifier)
I dont mind an elf with 8 con. a dwarf with a 6-8 chr or a halfling/gnome with a 8 str...it seems "right", as they are stereotypes of the race.
that being said I had a blast with my halfling fighter with 17 str in CoT.
but 42 point buys? REALLY?
Those aren't heroes, they are superheroes.
Its not really about the stats, or even the rules, its just about having fun and playing the game!
Using the standard 15-point buy and having to make meaningful choices in stat allocation also creates "fun" characters.
but 42 point buys? REALLY?
Those aren't heroes, they are superheroes.
This.
Not every hero needs an 18 in his prime stat. In movies and literature, heroes often face foes that are stronger/tougher/quicker/smarter than they are. The villains don't have Dragon-like stats, but they do have one 18, and the hero must beat them by exploiting their weakness.
Now, if you want a rockin', super-powered campaign, awesome! But, as W E Ray pointed out, you also have to turbo-charge every monster. If the end result is every encounter has exactly the same difficulty, what's the point? If it's just about high modifiers, wouldn't it be easier to just give every player +1 million damage and every monster DR/1 million? I guess I just don't get it.
Everyone has different ideas on what proper stats should be. Some like 10 point buy because no one is amasing. Some like 25. Personally, for me that stat line is a bit too good. If I were to give a stat line to all players it would be more like
17 16 15 13 12 10 or (35 point)
18 16 14 12 10 8 or (32 point)
18 15 14 13 12 10 (34 point)
If I gave my players point buy, I might go for 30. I prefer rolling though, and we use 3 sets of 4d6 drop low.
If I had my way, I'd play with that spread from here on out. I'd happily take +1 CR challenges to compensate for the underlying math of the system. Being able to go into any situation with confidence, being able to pull off anything well or at least with competency is the kind of character I want to play.
It's a little more complicated than slapping a +1 CR and calling it a day. The CR system isn't linear. Versus a level 5 party of 4, a CR 10 fight is many, many times more difficult than a CR 6 encounter. Your characters may not have the tools needed to deal with very high CR encounters. A challenging encounter might be APL + 2, but a very difficult encounter could be APL + 6. With that much distance between the expected monsters given a level, balance becomes difficult to maintain. I'm not saying it's impossible -- it just puts more burden on the GM to know the party's capability and judge things just right.
The entire CR system begins to fall apart when starting stats are huge. I've seen this time and time again in games. Resist the temptation to play with huge point buys. 15 point buy is the standard for a (good) reason.
Using the standard 15-point buy and having to make meaningful choices in stat allocation also creates "fun" characters.
If you definition of "fun" is wholly unrelated to playing the game and instead to playing a character. Which, you know, you could just do anyway and not try to drag others down.
The key thing is that it's already a fact that the character will be victorious, so the story is not about IF he will succeed, but HOW he succeeds. An implacable march towards victory. The drama comes from those who won't give in to the inevitability of hope.
But that should be the baseline expectation though, right? I mean, D&D/PF isn't a survival horror game. The PCs are granted plenty of advantages. It's up to the GM to take you to the edge. . . but you're still *supposed* to win.
Now, an adversarial GM might not think that way, but that's a separate issue. . .
Now people might say, "but you'll ruin it for everyone else!" and I can see that being easily the case, if I try and run roughshod over everything. The thing is I do have a good sense of the dramatic, and know very well how to be a team player. So I have no problem holding back and letting others shine. It's just that when I act, I want it to be me just pressing the win button... the key is to just press the button at the right point in the narrative to make it feel like an actual story, rather than some nightmarish, soul sucking spamfest of powergaming.
I think you may be interested in other games besides D&D/PF. I know there are plenty of games that turn the concept of challenge on its head. One lets you (the player) define the exact outcome of what happens -- and its up to the players to be "fair" within the context of the game. So the game functions more like a framework for group-based storytelling instead of a system of managing scaling probabilities.
Never been in a game with a 15 point buy before,
Im guessing things would be rough for spell casters and those attribute bonuses at level 4 and 8 would be necessary just to cast spells of the next level, could be interesting.
would be harder to qualify for certain feats like TWF and combat expertise and combat reflexes, but then again characters who had them would be all the rarer! and when you whipped it out on someone it would be very unlikely to be countered. I might try a game like that some time.
If you've got 15 point buy the npcs aren't going to be awesome either, which, as you level is going to make a might bit more special.
"I wanna play it my way!"
"Well I wanna play it my way!"
"Mine!"
"Mine!"
As a GM in PF/D&D, it is more difficult for me to put forth an adequately challenging game for your high point buy characters. You may be a grand GM, understand the limitations of the game perfectly, and produce a beautifully balanced adventure. But the reality is, most GMs are not really good. They're. . . average?
So expecting an average GM to produce a balanced game when the CR system falls apart is a bit like gambling. You might make the game too easy. You might make the game too difficult. I'm sure if you do it enough, you can probably make educated guesses. But introduce a new book/monster/feat/class/etc. and *poof* your balanced little micro-universe has to be reconfigured. . . or the book/monster/feat/class/etc. has to go.
The point buy issues really don't affect the players directly. It's the GM that must deal with the resulting issues. Maybe the GM loves doing that. . . if so, you're lucky q:
If you definition of "fun" is wholly unrelated to playing the game and instead to playing a character. Which, you know, you could just do anyway and not try to drag others down.
As a player and a GM, I think I've seen both sides of the argument enough. I actually was on the side of the "higher stats for more exciting characters" argument for the longest time.
Then another GM used the 15-point buy and I've been a convert ever since. It's much less work for the GM, because suddenly challenges are really viable at the level they are supposed to and, surprise!, the PC's still rock.
|
A hard fought victory is annoying to me. I want clean sweeps. It's fine if the other players want to feel challenged, but I want to be like Bill Murray in Ghostbusters, just waltzing through the adventure.
Now people might say, "but you'll ruin it for everyone else!" and I can see that being easily the case, if I try and run roughshod over everything. The thing is I do have a good sense of the dramatic, and know very well how to be a team player. So I have no problem holding back and letting others shine. It's just that when I act, I want it to be me just pressing the win button... the key is to just press the button at the right point in the narrative to make it feel like an actual story, rather than some nightmarish, soul sucking spamfest of powergaming.
So, what you're saying is you want a walk through Disney Land? If things aren't a challenge then what's the point? If slaying a lich was so easy then everyone would do it.
Yes, I understand you want a truly epic hero who's great at everything, but what's the point? When you succeed at everything it becomes boring. Do you really want to play a game where everyone is Superman? That get's dull.
I think if you're looking for a "my character is the best there is" scenario I would reccomend asking your GM to start at a higher level than 1. Ask him/her to start at 5th. That way your character has some experience under their belt and gear to go with it.
I can't remember who said it, "but the most rewarding things in life are those you earn."
PF is already like this to a large degree, the game does favor the players, but it's just an issue of turning the dial further into the PCs direction.
But the game wasn't designed to have the dial turned like that. It offers "high fantasy" and "epic fantasy" -- but the dial can't really support turning any farther ("mega fantasy", "super mega fantasy"?) without really changing how the whole game works. There's no "little fix" method for this.
I run 17 point buy and in Carrion Crown I think I'm going to be allowing hero points. Two traits, too, to help even power scale.
Should be interesting.
With 17 point buy I could easily get 15, 14, 14 10 10 10 if I wanted to. Or 15, 15 14 10 10 8. Or 16, 14, 13, 13, 10, 7. These are before racial mods.
Elven Wizard, 7, 16, 13, 18, 10, 11. Human Fighter, 17, 15, 14, 10, 10, 8. Halfling Bard, 8, 17, 12, 10, 10, 17. Oread Monk, 18, 13, 13, 10, 16, 5.
A little min-maxing is involved. I don't see the problem with that.
Throw Exalted into your gaming rotation, frustrations will be released in a torrent of d10s.
I'm sure at one point, given the content available in 3.5 (including the BoVD), Exalted was pretty balanced. You just had to know exactly what to add (as a GM) to make the game balanced. In fact, if you assume a campaign revolves around the BoED and BoVD, it's probably fine.
Throw Exalted stuff in any random game and it's probably not going to make sense/be imbalanced/etc.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As a GM in PF/D&D, it is more difficult for me to put forth an adequately challenging game for your high point buy characters.
Let me stop you right there.
YOU do not have to GM for ME. Therefore, what problems you have, have nothing to do with how I play.
Which is why things like THIS:
So, what you're saying is you want a walk through Disney Land?
irk me to no end.
Play your way, and stop looking down on me for the way I play.
Play your way, and stop looking down on me for the way I play.
Actually, the whole point of this forum is to discuss the Pathfinder game. If you play far from the baseline game. . . a customized, tweaked version of the game. . . we're really not talking about the same game anymore. We're alternating between the baseline game and your game. And I'm sure that causes plenty of confusion.
You can customize the game as much as you want. It's just when we discuss the game, no one has any knowledge of what you do to make your particular game work. We all should be speaking a common language.
When we say that playing with high stats messes up the CR system in the base game, this has been true through all of 3.X and PF. It's a common issue. No one is saying that you're a terrible GM for deviating from the baseline game. It's just that it doesn't work for other GMs who want to play the baseline game.
Actually, he's refering to another game system entirely, called Exalted, where you play heroic individuals gifted by the gods to kick all kinds of ass, not the Book of Exalted DeedsThrow Exalted into your gaming rotation, frustrations will be released in a torrent of d10s.I'm sure at one point, given the content available in 3.5 (including the BoVD), Exalted was pretty balanced. You just had to know exactly what to add (as a GM) to make the game balanced. In fact, if you assume a campaign revolves around the BoED and BoVD, it's probably fine.
Throw Exalted stuff in any random game and it's probably not going to make sense/be imbalanced/etc.
Oh, my bad (:
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
After reading so many threads, even creating ones, that involve something to do with point buy, I've realized the array spread that I want for my characters. {18, 16, 14, 14, 13, 12} ... If I had my way, I'd play with that spread from here on out.
Okay.
The way I analyze that spread, it would work out to a +2 CR adjustment. So, in a party where everyone else is 3rd Level with a 15-point buy, you'll have extraordinary statistics and the feats / skill ranks / hit points of a 1st-level character.
I'm not saying this in a snotty kind of way: "Okaaaaay. But you'll be sooorry." Not at all. I am reminded of a lesson from "Shadow Knight", the supplement to the AMBER RPG from years ago: the players tell the GM what kind of campaign they want, by the way they invest in their PCs. You'd rather have high baseline abilities, and you'd be willing to trade off the power from higher levels for that.
If I had to guess, Mok, I'd say that you probably like to play low-magic characters, since a 22-Int 3rd-level wizard is still going to be in the shadow of his 18-Int 5th-level wizard colleague. Meanwhile, a 6th-level ranger with terrific stats will be closer to the capabilities of his 8th-level ranger with lower attributes.
Your character will be less focused, more a "jack-of-all-trades", passable at most things, but not as exceptional in one talent as his peers. And that's not a terrible character to play.
I recently did a 1d6 + 9 for all my players. Then I gave them 5 pts to put where they want. We are playing through temple of elemental evil with 3 people and I figured that they would need all the help they could get. I also have all my monsters have max hit points so I think it all balances out.
I've been using a static array for D&D/PF for many years. I usually give the players 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8 , arrange as desired, you may move points from higher attributes to lower. That's a 32 point buy value if you don't move any points.
What I like about this array is that everyone can be maxed in one thing, so your fighter is really strong and your wizard is really smart, without having to cripple themselves in other areas. It also allows a weakness or two, but not in a radical way.
I've always liked point-buy systems, but never liked the D&D3/PF point buy. My complaint is that, while bonuses are a flat two-for-one, point buy costs are curved, making high numbers too expensive and encouraging min-maxing through blandness. I even played in a d20 Star Wars game where every character had 14, 14, 14, 12, 10, 10. Seriously? We were about to play a crew of slightly above average people who are also Jedi? I talked the GM into an array and we ended up with much more interesting characters! The Wookie was super strong, the Twi'lek was super charismatic, etc. Much more fun!
From that one thread about mathematically probabilities of success... I think I'd want to have 90% rate on any give roll or defense. I want to be far enough ahead of the power curve that failures are more of just cosmetic "difficulties" to make it seem like there is any real challenge.
One of the key things for myself, and I know I'm quite different about this than many other players, is that I DO NOT want to feel challenged. I specifically want to act within a fantasy world with effortless grace.
A hard fought victory is annoying to me. I want clean sweeps. It's fine if the other players want to feel challenged, but I want to be like Bill Murray in Ghostbusters, just waltzing through the adventure.
Now people might say, "but you'll ruin it for everyone else!" and I can see that being easily the case, if I try and run roughshod over everything. The thing is I do have a good sense of the dramatic, and know very well how to be a team player. So I have no problem holding back and letting others shine. It's just that when I act, I want it to be me just pressing the win button... the key is to just press the button at the right point in the narrative to make it feel like an actual story, rather than some nightmarish, soul sucking spamfest of powergaming.
I appreciate your honesty, Mok. I don't think you are quite as alone as you think, but I think few people would be willing to come out and admit (or are even self-aware enough to realize) that they prefer the game set on "Easy" mode. I hope you don't object to my portraying it that way, but it seemed the obvious analogy to what you describe.
From the responses I got in the thread you mention, and from multiple other threads here, I think there is a significant minority that plays somewhat similar to the way you like it, and lots more who want the superpowered characters, but also want superpowered challenges that make failure a real possibility. If anything, I think those of us who prefer to keep the power level ratcheted down, or who prefer power to be something a character develops rather than is born with are in an ever decreasing minority.
In any event, you have hit on a key point that your preferred gameplay style has to be compatible with the others in your group. I have no doubt that you can find others who feel like you do and want to play that way.
I wish you good luck and good gaming, and keep the honest exchange flowing.
The key thing is that it's already a fact that the character will be victorious, so the story is not about IF he will succeed, but HOW he succeeds.
That may be in your games, but I don't hand victories out, and there are other DM's that don't do so either. As a player all I ask for is a fair chance at success. If I know I am going to be victorious it makes the game less fun.
Ah, great stories about stat-generation...
One adventure we were using the standard method (4d6 drop 1). I proceeded to roll in my usual horrible habit (7,9,10,11,11,13).
One of the other players, known for generating excitement around the table, grabbed his dice and started rolling...
17. Many cheers were to be had.
17. A chorus of applause.
17. Jaws hit the floor.
17. And go through the floor.
17. And wrap around the earth.
13. "Awww...."
If I remember correctly, he made a pretty awesome monk after that.
---------------
I've yet to find my preferred method of stat generation. Point buy is too bland, rolling dice is too swingy, making them up is no fun. I've been playing around with doing 6+3d4 and it seems the closest to what I want. You don't get horrible scores, but it's not horribly weighted towards high scores.
I'll probably just end up stealing Blueluck's method.
Ah, great stories about stat-generation...
One adventure we were using the standard method (4d6 drop 1). I proceeded to roll in my usual horrible habit (7,9,10,11,11,13).
I am pretty sure that is officially a Mulligan.
I am pretty sure that is officially a Mulligan.Ah, great stories about stat-generation...
One adventure we were using the standard method (4d6 drop 1). I proceeded to roll in my usual horrible habit (7,9,10,11,11,13).
How did I never notice that section?! Gah.
So, what you're saying is you want a walk through Disney Land? If things aren't a challenge then what's the point? If slaying a lich was so easy then everyone would do it.
That's part of the thing, no one else is as awesome as your group. That's why no one else has done it. You and the lich are the two major superpowers. You're the clashing titans. That's why it's fun: if you don't do it, no one else will- the world depends on your success.
Yes, I understand you want a truly epic hero who's great at everything, but what's the point? When you succeed at everything it becomes boring. Do you really want to play a game where everyone is Superman? That get's dull.
I counter that it's similarly dull to play a member of the bumbling, hapless masses who succeeds more because of the bonuses from favorable conditions and magic equipment than his own abilities. 45 point buy doesn't mean you automatically succeed- at low levels, it makes less of a difference than your D20 roll to hit or your roll to damage, and at high levels, you're swimming in magic items anyway. What it did for my games was put my new players out of range of the "Oops, kobold rolled a crit. You have how many hit points? You're dead." scenario, which has been one of many reasons new people have quit the hobby before really starting.
I think if you're looking for a "my character is the best there is" scenario I would reccomend asking your GM to start at a higher level than 1. Ask him/her to start at 5th. That way your character has some experience under their belt and gear to go with it.
This has already been responded to, but this solution doesn't really work. Unless you're suggesting that he face level 1 challenges at level 5, it doesn't matter what you set their level to, the game "adjusts" to default.
I can't remember who said it, "but the most rewarding things in life are those you earn."
Funny thing: You still have to earn rewards no matter what your stats are. It might matter less that you rolled a 9 instead of a 13, but if you don't go out adventuring- you know, follow the story- you don't earn rewards.
Don't get me wrong, I still love reading stories and watching movies about underdog victories. Silent Hill is a fun video game series. But when I get to create a character to represent myself in a story, I don't want someone just "capable." I want someone mighty. I don't want "You might win, if the odds favor you. Otherwise you sit and wait for everyone else to rescue you, or you all fail unless I decide to fudge things." I want "You're more than likely going to win, but it's up to you to make it awesome." I don't have to go play Exhalted, D&D can do that. Pathfinder can do that. 15 point buy, though, doesn't really do that.
I'm reminded of when I looked at the game Dark Heresy: it's a sci-fi game set in the Warhammer 40,000 universe. I was really excited to play the game, since the setting is very over-the-top about how powerful the characters and monsters are. When I rolled up a character, however... I noticed that the things my character was supposedly skilled in, I would have less than a 50% chance (skills and attributes are direct percentages) of doing an average, day-to-day task in a professional sense. You wouldn't keep a secretary who filed your documents in the wrong place more than half the time, would you? Yet the assumption was that my character was hand-picked by a representative of a shadowy theocratic government over billions of other humans for my exceptional skills... skills that would translate into a guardsman who could take an action to aim a quality rifle at a dummy 15' away and still miss roughly 30% of the time. Not my cup of tea.
I am pretty sure that is officially a Mulligan.Ah, great stories about stat-generation...
One adventure we were using the standard method (4d6 drop 1). I proceeded to roll in my usual horrible habit (7,9,10,11,11,13).
Depends on the game, players, and GM.
The groups I play with we use either 3d6 place to taste, or 3d6 for each stat in order. And you play what you roll. I ended up with a Barbarian with 18/00 str and 18 cha that way once in 2e. Also ended up with Bob the Barbarian that way (18/00 str, 6 int) both of whom were great fun to RP.
In other games I have had arrays handed to me, used point buys, rolled 4d6 drop the lowest, 4d6 drop the highest, 5d6 drop the lowest and the highest, and dice pool (only once my 18, 18, 15, 15, 12, 12 array ended that experiment).
My favorite method though was when we were told to build our perfect "concept character," (2e) no stat before race mods was to be higher than an 18, beyond that go wild. I built this sweet Elf Barbarian with an 18 str, 17 con, 16 dex, 10 int, 12 wis, and 8 cha. Then once we were done we were told to Pass the Character sheet to the left! I got stuck with a Dwarf Thief with a 8 str, 18 dex, 19 con, 14 int, 10 wis, and 17 cha. That was one of the most interesting games I ever played in.
|
Well, you can do exactly what you're suggesting. If your GM is cool with that, and the rest of the group is, rock on.
I personally would be frustrated, but to each his own.
I would second the Exalted game system, as well as the Diceless RPG Amber as both will let you pull off that kind of shenanigans as written.
The Mutants & Masterminds game system also allows for great flexibility in design, and with some tweaking, you really do feel like a Big Damn Hero, capable of saving the day, "The Incredibles" style.
The groups I play with we use either 3d6 place to taste, or 3d6 for each stat in order.
Just like inflating point buy can wreck the baseline game, super low stats can do the same thing. Just like the baseline game, if the GM wants to tweak the game to make it work, it can work. Just don't assume that it'll work in a baseline game.
Hey, some people think it's fun to play with super low stats (: