How / Can I use wings as a natural attack?

[Phage]

Can I use wings (su, Sorcerer Draconic-bloodline lvl 15) as a natural attack?

If they could support my weight to fly (ie not vestigial) it seems like I could attack with them as a secondary natural weapon. I found the chart for wing damage based on size: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules

I have been unable to find any standard rules for what constitutes a natural weapon. Some races start off with claws and bites, so it would seem that if the appendage is fully formed and strong enough to take action (grab, lift, fly, etc) then it should be able to be used offensively.

If I can't normally make use of the wings as a natural attack, any advice on how to make them usable?

[Thazar]

There are a lot of creatures in the bestiary that have wings that do not get a wing attack. Birds, Harpy, etc. Dragons are one of the few that do get it as a secondary attack. I think this fall into the realm of DM and house rule myself.

At best I would suggest making a feat called Wing Attack or the like and see if your DM would allow it.

Of course if it is put into the game there is nothing that prevents a druid or ranger giving their pets the same feat and gaining extra attacks as well so that is worth thinking about too.

[James Risner]

Phage wrote:

Can I use wings (su, Sorcerer Draconic-bloodline lvl 15) as a natural attack?

If they are not listed as a natural weapon, there isn't anything that makes them one.

[Starglim]

You might be able to make an unarmed strike with your wing.

[Rickmeister]

Like hitting someone with your elbow, i can't imagine it being easy to hit someone with your wing for any decent amount.

I would call the -4 on the attack, but if the sorc takes improved unarmed strike (or homebrew "Wingattack") than I would find little problem with it :)

[Phage]

I really like natural attacks so I've been researching the mechanics and rules regarding natural attacks, which honestly seem quite lacking.

So far I've only seen permanent wings from SU from sorcerer, and at 15 I would only have around 9 BaB and 3 str modifier AND wings are a secondary attack so they get -5 to hit (also half str/PA). In no way would these be a huge source of damage, especially when fighters have better DPS from all their added iterative attacks.

Comparing the values to other wing attacks, it looks like a player would only start off with 1d3 damage each, maybe 1d4. Aside from stacking tons of feats or modifiers they would mostly be for flavor.

I guess I'm more bummed that there just doesn't really seem to be any existing rules for strengthening appendages and/or acquiring new ones. There definitely is the framework so these could translate into acquirable feats or other sorts of abilities, just that it isn't released by Paizo.

Right now the best implementation I've found is to use the Adopted trait to acquire the base appendage and then use the table on Improved Natural Attack to get an idea for starting damage and progression, but playing with GMs who play exactly like the rules, this is obviously not likely to fly.

Lack of legal sources make me sad.

[Thomas LeBlanc]

I would allow it. When I was a kid, we raised geese. One broke 3 bones in my mothers hand. It is like it had improved natural attack (wings).

Wings

Go with the chart and allow the wing attack as a secondary.

Just For Fun:

Goose CR 1/2

XP 200

N Small animal

Init +2; Senses low-light vision; Perception +9
---------------
DEFENSE

AC 13, touch 13, flat-footed 11 (+2 Dex, +1 size)

hp 5 (1d8+1)

Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +1
---------------
OFFENSE

Speed 20 ft., swim 10 ft., fly 60 ft. (poor)

Melee 2 wings +3 (1d6), bite +3 (1)
---------------
STATISTICS

Str 11, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 7

Base Atk +0; CMB –1; CMD 11

Feats Weapon Finesse, Improved Natural Attack(wings)[Bonus feat]

Skills Fly +8, Perception +9, Swim +8; Racial Modifiers +8 Perception
---------------
ECOLOGY

Environment forest, mountains, planes, and above water

Organization solitary, pair, gaggle (3-20)

Treasure none

Known around the world for their excellent taste and egg laying abilities, only a farmer can tell you the true horrors of raising geese. They are very aggressive in protecting their young. They warn predators off using honks and hisses. They attack using their wings, which are rumored to be able to crack even a dwarves skull. Their bites are not very dangerous, just painful and humiliating.

A goose has wings which are much larger in proportion to its body when compared to other birds. The wings are designed to glide and a gander of geese fly in a "V" formation.

Geese generally weigh between 12 and 30 pounds, with a wingspan of up to 8 feet, depending on the species.

[BigNorseWolf]

Quote:

Like hitting someone with your elbow, i can't imagine it being easy to hit someone with your wing for any decent amount.

I once had to get a swan untangled from some fishing line. It clocked me in the head with the elbow of its wings multiple times. It felt like i was being punched by an average sized drunk. The muscles that power the wings are strong enough to keep the bird aloft in the air and that joint is hard as a rock.

[Remco Sommeling]

probably you can make an attack like an unarmed strike with it, but seriously not every appendage means an extra attack to deal damage with, I'd definately not have the wings make extra attacks.

So we have a kicking, clawing, winging, biting, headbutting character,
what is that 8 attacks ?

[BigNorseWolf]

Remco Sommeling wrote:

probably you can make an attack like an unarmed strike with it, but seriously not every appendage means an extra attack to deal damage with, I'd definately not have the wings make extra attacks.

So we have a kicking, clawing, winging, biting, headbutting character,
what is that 8 attacks ?

Bite and headbut use the same limb :)

But yes, dual wielding your body parts is getting out of hand.

[Greg Wasson]

James Risner wrote:

Phage wrote:

Can I use wings (su, Sorcerer Draconic-bloodline lvl 15) as a natural attack?

If they are not listed as a natural weapon, there isn't anything that makes them one.

Give the fellow one level of Monk.

Greg

[Phage]

For flavor purposes I really liked natural attacks. Unfortunately, they are lackluster after mid-level where the classes generally fall behind in BaB and number of attacks.

Because natural attacks do not gain iterative bonuses, you're only working with what you got. So I'm confused on how to make a character focusing on natural attacks useful in the higher levels.

[Abrir]

i'm taking the eldrich heritage draconic feat rounds i was wondering if you could TWF using a katana and a claw togeather with twf.
also if i had a gantlet, would it change to fit my hand should i get the glove enchanted?

[blahpers]

Rickmeister wrote:

Like hitting someone with your elbow, i can't imagine it being easy to hit someone with your wing for any decent amount.

I would call the -4 on the attack, but if the sorc takes improved unarmed strike (or homebrew "Wingattack") than I would find little problem with it :)

Hang on...did the first part of that first sentence mean that you can't imagine it being easy to hit someone with your elbow for any decent amount?

[Rynjin]

Wing attacks exist.

But not everyone with wings have a wing attack. It has to specifically say you do for it to apply.

[Halfling Barbarian]

No, you can't, unless you do something like this

[lemeres]

Rickmeister wrote:

Like hitting someone with your elbow, i can't imagine it being easy to hit someone with your wing for any decent amount.

I would call the -4 on the attack, but if the sorc takes improved unarmed strike (or homebrew "Wingattack") than I would find little problem with it :)

...Elbows and knees are some of the hardest parts of the human body, and they are used extensively in Muay Thai. That is how it gained the nickname "the art of eight limbs" (thanks wiki-fu!)

But anyway, unless you find some feat for it (like halfing barbarian showed), then you are restricted from getting an extra attack.