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The class just annoys me. It's doing things that are unique, but uniqueness by itself doesn't make for a good class.
Druid is far more powerful, and that is a problem (with the druid). I think summoner should be buffed because it's far too eidolon based. I really wish the buffs simply allow Summon Monster SLA and eidolon to exist at the same time, those cool SLAs that were completely removed (sure Wish was too good, but a breath weapon?), or better spell list. Give the eidolon more interesting and fun forms. And then balance those out instead of just removing them completely like ALL the SLAs. I also really hate that the summoner just has few spells and a crappy spell list, but I can live with those if the Summoner Monster SLA and eidolon stuff were improved.
People said "don't compare it to the druid". Fine, but nerfing the summoner because the druid is too good is bad design. Nerf the druid (and other classes that are too good), and everything looks better overall.
However, not sure how to improve things without flat out getting rid of a bunch of the old rules. New forms are fine, but additional spells isn't really possible, nor is Summon Monster SLA and eidolon simultaneously easily accomplished now without making an archetype that will get rid of more spells to accomplish this.
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Yes the summoner would also be in a problem if we calculated in soft cover, but atleast in my group there is some discussion if your own allies provide cover or not, so i just avoided it. He could also have been off to the side or something to avoid it.
Off to the side is fine.
if you want RAW, then yes, your allies provide cover to your oppoennts if you are firing through them, and your ally is closer to the opponent than he is to you.
Obviously you can houserule it to play it how you want, but if you are looking for a reasonable 'is this class borked' discussion, it needs to be by RAW. Houserules just complicate the entire system for stuff like that.
Hmm, maybe they should just make this thread a sticky, seems like it comes up about once every other week and the same arguments get retread over and over again.
Sticky? They need a blog series just to cover how the Summoner works...
This is all fascinating reading for a guy who just created a thread wherein I thought I'd found a way to shut down the entire Summoner class all together.
The 100-armed hydra eidolon can pretty much be sent away with dismissal, can't it? Is this really a huge problem people have been experiencing in their games?
Personally I'd think it was great if someone in the community put together a "If your summoner's eidolon seems broken good, here are the 342 details you probably got wrong" list.
I don't think something like that's ever going to end up in a FAQ or errata, and it seems necessary.
This is all fascinating reading for a guy who just created a thread wherein I thought I'd found a way to shut down the entire Summoner class all together.The 100-armed hydra eidolon can pretty much be sent away with dismissal, can't it? Is this really a huge problem people have been experiencing in their games?
ALOT of the problems arise at lower levels I think lvl 4 or so or just after an eidolon gets large at lvl 8
This is all fascinating reading for a guy who just created a thread wherein I thought I'd found a way to shut down the entire Summoner class all together.The 100-armed hydra eidolon can pretty much be sent away with dismissal, can't it? Is this really a huge problem people have been experiencing in their games?
Invest in 4k gold and a ring slot.
-James
Anyone else realize this thread is from 3 years ago?... And do we really need to resurrect something that's already at 1 con and beat it to death again?
But, if we're insistent on liquefying an already pulped horse, might as well...
The Summoner's rather rules wonky, but it's not broken... Seriously, the guy can get shut down pretty freaking easily. It's not like the eidolon's immune to poisons or mind-affecting affects as a base...
"Oh look, 100-armed hydra eidolon's coming my way... Dominate. Go kill your summoner."
And, really... Who's going to go after the arm-beast when there's a squishy mage in the back that appears to be shouting orders at it?
Are people still having problems with these guys in their games? I haven't heard a Summoner complaint in quite a while from anyone who actually reads up on the summoner and takes its rules into consideration...
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Oh sorry I was looking for the rogues suck thread...but this will do
My GF regularly builds summoners. I've built more than my share, across various archetypes. I've also GMed for them.
They're not as bad as everyone thinks, if the GM isn't just running his adventure on auto pilot... Which is really what a lot of "OMGBROKE" comes from, imo.
Then again, I'm old school, brutal, don't play those (usually) poorly-balanced adventure paths, or that atrocity that's PFS, and actively use various checks and balances against my PCs to keep the game fun for everyone. Except for when I started, and when I was getting back into DMing and brushing off the rust, I've never had one PC dominate an encounter more than any other in any significant way that made the rest of the party not have fun. Summoners being played by power gamers included (who proceeded to say the Summoner SUCKED BALLS when I pointed out how the rules actually worked, since they only skimmed it).
Also...
Healing yourself? Only if you heal your eidolon and then transfer it's HPs to yourself. Unless they expanded the list since the last time I checked, the summoner doesn't get healing spells.. Unless you're contriving up a Samsaran getting cure from Bard or Witch...
Oh, so you drop your Eidolon to summon other creatures... Alrighty. Banishment, summoner's conduit, bite the hand... Bite the Hand Mass anyone? Anti Magic, Circles of Protection, various other spells/abilities. Of course, there's also the fact of uh... Anything the PCs can do, the GM can do, so... Enjoy the sudden onrush of summoned creatures to deal with yours from the enemy caster when the enemy organization learns your strategy and tactics. And, yeah... Enjoy battlefield control spells and such used on the party too.
DMs these days are too soft. I'm not advocating actively killing the PCs, but as they say. What's good for the PCs, good for the DM. Specially if the PCs want to run rampant all over the game and ruin the table's fun.
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to answer that lets look at what a summoner does.
Has a mean beat (in the form of a eidolon) stick that fights just as well as the fighter or barbarian but is completely tailored to what works best with you or your party...
Has Wizard/Sorcerer spells while mostly limited to summons they do have access to all of the survivability spells and battlefield control spells, not limited to but including Stoneskin, Black tentacles etc, etc.
Missing all fogs (close down archers) and clouds. They can get wind wall and tentacles, but none of the others.
They are a Pseudo Cleric, that's right they can heal there eidolons and them selves just as well as a cleric could heal them in MOST cases. with Rejuvenate Eidolon mixed with life conduit while sacrificing there own HP to keep the eidolon in the fight far longer.
Once they get that ability at 14th level. Until then, the damage only goes one direction and it only kicks in once the eidolon is at negative hit points. Even then, they are very limited in their healing.
They can and do summon just as well as a druid being able to drop spells for summon monster spells.
They are a spontaneous caster. It isn't that they substitute a spell, it is that they have a very limited number of spells they can cast from a rather restricted list.
An opponent that knows they are going against a summoner doesn't need to do that much research into exactly what spells they have. They just have to be able to find out what the restricted list is and they can plan for it.
They also know how few spells they have. At level twenty they have 30 spells plus attribute bonuses and a SLA for three plus attribute bonus. Druid had a total of 36 spells plus attribute bonuses. Sorcerer has a total of 54 plus attribute bonuses.
Compared to other casters, the summoner has far fewer spells they can do a day. Oh, and their highest level spells are three DC easier to resist or dispel since they only have six levels of spells rather than nine.
they get all this versatility and a D8 HD and a good base attack progression meaning they are just as capable as a ranged attacker between spells as say a rogue (who isn't focused on ranged sneak attack). they have reasonable saves given they are predominantly a caster which is ok.
Is a summoner OP, oh yea very.
anyone who cant see it has a stake in it remaining so.
Or maybe have some experience with the weaknesses?
The summoner is pretty much a one trick pony. A chaotic one really doesn't want a paladin coming for them. I think a cleric of opposing alignment is the best if you are going to hunt one down.
If you only concentrate on what they can do, yeah they look good. Spend a little bit of time thinking about how an opponent would be able to exploit their weaknesses and it isn't so powerful.