I think the D&D themed restaurant should be, well . . . THEMED! Hehehe. That would be so cool.
Oh, and it also should serve pizza.
Well, I'll open a Pathfinder-themed restaurant. More friendly waitresses. Greater range of flavours and food styles. And I'll let everyone use my recipes if they say where they get them from and share some of their own recipes. And I will also support take-out and will deliver. You'll be able to have a chat with the chefs and managers.
And all waitresses will be succubus demons. Your restaurant officially can't compete with that! :P
I think the D&D themed restaurant should be, well . . . THEMED! Hehehe. That would be so cool.
Oh, and it also should serve pizza.
Well, I'll open a Pathfinder-themed restaurant. More friendly waitresses. Greater range of flavours and food styles. And I'll let everyone use my recipes if they say where they get them from and share some of their own recipes. And I will also support take-out and will deliver. You'll be able to have a chat with the chefs and managers.
And all waitresses will be succubus demons. Your restaurant officially can't compete with that! :P
You're all wrong, and i've got the opinion to prove it! My restaurant will feature tiers with increasingly better tasting and spicier foods, and stronger drinks. And there will be cards! Oh yes! There will be cards.
So there! I win.
And the reason for WotC's sudden plea for unity is revealed.You think so (I'm seriously asking, no sarcasm)? I have to admit that was my first reaction as well and the timing of the unity request and polling about "what you want in a game" is more evidence to me.
I guess I'm just finding it hard to believe that the current edition of D&D is actually being toppled by another tabletop RPG that is based on and compatible with the previous version of D&D. I really do feel bad for the 4th ed designers they are in a tough tough spot.
Although back in the 90's I remember people were pretty high on the White Wolf RPGs for a brief amount of time and people were predicting doom and gloom for D&D as a result but look how that ended up.
Don't remind me...
I think the D&D themed restaurant should be, well . . . THEMED! Hehehe. That would be so cool.
Oh, and it also should serve pizza.
Well, I'll open a Pathfinder-themed restaurant. More friendly waitresses. Greater range of flavours and food styles. And I'll let everyone use my recipes if they say where they get them from and share some of their own recipes. And I will also support take-out and will deliver. You'll be able to have a chat with the chefs and managers.
And all waitresses will be succubus demons. Your restaurant officially can't compete with that! :P
You're all wrong, and i've got the opinion to prove it! My restaurant will feature tiers with increasingly better tasting and spicier foods, and stronger drinks. And there will be cards! Oh yes! There will be cards.
So there! I win.
I do declare, we are all frustrated enough with Wizards to talk about themed restaurants. I'll take your succubus, knock her over the head and drag her to my man cave. Succys should not care if they are married Neanderthal style. ;)
As for the restuarant with tiered food. . . I'll trump you and bring in Donald Trump to run the business!
Although back in the 90's I remember people were pretty high on the White Wolf RPGs for a brief amount of time and people were predicting doom and gloom for D&D as a result but look how that ended up.Don't remind me...
Well, look at what happened to the WoD franchise. They rebooted it, changed the mechanics and then all the previous backstory was invalidated. That meant $2-3K in books obscolesced in one fell swoop for me. How'd that work out for you WW? That experience was one of the reasons I was so against moving forward into 4e. I bought the basic nWoD intro books, and a few of the first releases, but the magic was gone. I LIKED oWoD, warts and all. Just like I liked 3e, warts and all.
I guess the moral of the story is that radical reboots will alienate a large portion of your fanbase. The $64 dollar question is how much of a shrinking fanbase can you afford to alienate? In WW's case, I'd say too many were alienated. D&D has more depth of history and parent company support, so only time will tell...
And the reason for WotC's sudden plea for unity is revealed.You think so (I'm seriously asking, no sarcasm)? I have to admit that was my first reaction as well and the timing of the unity request and polling about "what you want in a game" is more evidence to me.
I guess I'm just finding it hard to believe that the current edition of D&D is actually being toppled by another tabletop RPG that is based on and compatible with the previous version of D&D. I really do feel bad for the 4th ed designers they are in a tough tough spot.
Neither WotC nor Hasbro have ever really had a serious competitor before Pathfinder (White Wolf tended to target a different audience, so while a nuisance, really wasn't a direct competitor), so I don't find it hard to imagine that they might start getting worried with something like Pathfinder Basic given the growth of Pathfinder thus far. I personally don't see Pathfinder displacing 4e and/or whatever they come up with for 5e, but given their inability to read the RPG market for the last couple years, I could see at least some people at WotC and Hasbro genuinely believing their position to be threatened. I don't think those actually working with DnD believe this, but the money men behind them sure seem to.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Well, look at what happened to the WoD franchise. They rebooted it, changed the mechanics and then all the previous backstory was invalidated. That meant $2-3K in books obscolesced in one fell swoop for me. How'd that work out for you WW? That experience was one of the reasons I was so against moving forward into 4e. I bought the basic nWoD intro books, and a few of the first releases, but the magic was gone. I LIKED oWoD, warts and all. Just like I liked 3e, warts and all.
I guess the moral of the story is that radical reboots will alienate a large portion of your fanbase. The $64 dollar question is how much of a shrinking fanbase can you afford to alienate? In WW's case, I'd say too many were alienated. D&D has more depth of history and parent company support, so only time will tell...
Well what's left of WW seems to have learned (some of) the lesson, since they released the V:TM/V:TR conversion document (for a price) It would be nice to see a KotE conversion document too, but that's a more massive undertaking.
I will agree I read/collected oWoD for the story. I was mad that (essentially) they ended the lines because they felt Vampire/Werewolf had reached the end of the line. We never got a revised Progenitors (my favourite faction) or NWO book. (Mage was my favourite game)
And yes, some of that bitterness is the same as the Realms being nuked.
What White Wolf failed to understand fully was that WOD players were buying into the story. A good deal of them couldn't have cared less about the mechanics, save for the usual resistance of changing gears to learn a new one.
Those that got torqued off were the ones who felt having the rug yanked out of it becasue they decided to fold up the World of Darkness and toss it in the trashcan for reset. D+D players on the large are comparatively more tolerant for rules resets than Storyteller players were for story resets.
A lot of the D&D players also bought into the 'story'. Witness Matthew's comparison to the Realms Reboot above. I would add the Planes reboot to that, that pretty much lost them to me as a customer. I really could care less about mechanics, but don't ruin my story.
If D+D had remained closed content the way White Wolf still is, it probably not would have survived it's dark days either. While I may hold Ryan Dancey accountable for a lot of faults and destroying a cherished campaign, his creation of open gaming gave the third party renasance which is most likely the sole reason D20 style play is alive today.
While Mr. Dancey will always have free drinks from me if we ever share space at a pub, D&D would have survived better if the OGL wasn't in effect. With no alternative to the edition reboot, the hard-core would either quit playing/buying (I would count myself in that group, having already edged into the MMO world for my gaming fix), kept playing 3e with a dwindling player base and no new materials (much like the 3e players do now), or shrugged and started playing 4e. All in all, the OGL has preserved my favorite way of gaming, and for that I am forever grateful to Mr. Dancey.
What White Wolf failed to understand fully was that WOD players were buying into the story. A good deal of them couldn't have cared less about the mechanics, save for the usual resistance of changing gears to learn a new one.
Those that got torqued off were the ones who felt having the rug yanked out of it becasue they decided to fold up the World of Darkness and toss it in the trashcan for reset. D+D players on the large are comparatively more tolerant for rules resets than Storyteller players were for story resets.
A lot of the D&D players also bought into the 'story'. Witness Matthew's comparison to the Realms Reboot above. I would add the Planes reboot to that, that pretty much lost them to me as a customer. I really could care less about mechanics, but don't ruin my story.
If D+D had remained closed content the way White Wolf still is, it probably not would have survived it's dark days either. While I may hold Ryan Dancey accountable for a lot of faults and destroying a cherished campaign, his creation of open gaming gave the third party renasance which is most likely the sole reason D20 style play is alive today.While Mr. Dancey will always have free drinks from me if we ever share space at a pub, D&D would have survived better if the OGL wasn't in effect. With no alternative to the edition reboot, the hard-core would either quit playing/buying (I would count myself in that group, having already edged into the MMO world for my gaming fix), kept playing 3e with a dwindling player base and no new materials (much like the 3e players do now), or shrugged and started playing 4e. All in all, the OGL has preserved my favorite way of gaming, and for that I am forever grateful to Mr. Dancey.
Indeed. All hail Dancey!!
And the reason for WotC's sudden plea for unity is revealed.
I can't use this link, darn web nazi's!
Can I get a summary of what this links contains or what was said?|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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This is interesting. I guess I would have been in the "kept playing 3e with a dwindling player base and no new materials" group since I had no interest in going into a completely mechanically revamped game at this stage in my gaming life (my players as well).
With no alternative to the edition reboot, the hard-core would either quit playing/buying (I would count myself in that group, having already edged into the MMO world for my gaming fix), kept playing 3e with a dwindling player base and no new materials (much like the 3e players do now), or shrugged and started playing 4e. All in all, the OGL has preserved my favorite way of gaming, and for that I am forever grateful to Mr. Dancey.
See, I'd have been in this camp too. I had my APs but would have dropped Paizo if they'd gone 4e, just like I dropped WotC and Goodman when they went 4e. Pathfinder gets my money because of the quality of the product *and* the fact that the game is still largely the 3.x game.
Also along these lines, I bought the Dragon Age RPG because I find the decisions made in the world of Thedas interesting (Caste based dwarves, degenerated elven race, etc.)
And the reason for WotC's sudden plea for unity is revealed.I can't use this link, darn web nazi's!
Can I get a summary of what this links contains or what was said?
And the reason for WotC's sudden plea for unity is revealed.I can't use this link, darn web nazi's!
Can I get a summary of what this links contains or what was said?
It's a picture of the Pathfinder basic set.
This should help.And the reason for WotC's sudden plea for unity is revealed.I can't use this link, darn web nazi's!
Can I get a summary of what this links contains or what was said?
Interesting.
Also along these lines, I bought the Dragon Age RPG because I find the decisions made in the world of Thedas interesting (Caste based dwarves, degenerated elven race, etc.)
I think you guys have summed up pretty well my opinions on the risks of hard mecahnic/ setting resets, and why I also moved away from WW
I do want to know how the Dragon Age RPG is playing Matthew as I also liked a lot of the world decisions they made.
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Neither WotC nor Hasbro have ever really had a serious competitor before Pathfinder (White Wolf tended to target a different audience, so while a nuisance, really wasn't a direct competitor), so I don't find it hard to imagine that they might start getting worried with something like Pathfinder Basic given the growth of Pathfinder thus far. I personally don't see Pathfinder displacing 4e and/or whatever they come up with for 5e, but given their inability to read the RPG market for the last couple years, I could see at least some people at WotC and Hasbro genuinely believing their position to be threatened. I don't think those actually working with DnD believe this, but the money men behind them sure seem to.And the reason for WotC's sudden plea for unity is revealed.You think so (I'm seriously asking, no sarcasm)? I have to admit that was my first reaction as well and the timing of the unity request and polling about "what you want in a game" is more evidence to me.
I guess I'm just finding it hard to believe that the current edition of D&D is actually being toppled by another tabletop RPG that is based on and compatible with the previous version of D&D. I really do feel bad for the 4th ed designers they are in a tough tough spot.
Not sure I would agree with WoD not targeting the same people. Most DnD players I know played WoD. Many of them left 2E DnD for WoD and returned with 3E DnD. Of the ones I know that didn't play WoD they mostly got into gaming after the nWoD when it was on a decline. For the record for numbers of the overlaping grous there is 15 players, 8 played WoD and DnD before it. 2 started with WoD, 4 started with in the last 5-6 years and started with 3E and only one never played WoD and was RPing in the 90's.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Also along these lines, I bought the Dragon Age RPG because I find the decisions made in the world of Thedas interesting (Caste based dwarves, degenerated elven race, etc.)I think you guys have summed up pretty well my opinions on the risks of hard mecahnic/ setting resets, and why I also moved away from WW
I do want to know how the Dragon Age RPG is playing Matthew as I also liked a lot of the world decisions they made.
I've not had a chance to play it yet, I will admit I was hoping the stats would mirror the video game a bit more. The 'stunts' mechanic is interesting.
Hopefully now that DA2 is out we can get away from "Every PC wants to be a Grey Warden."
Awakenings Spoiler:
Not sure I would agree with WoD not targeting the same people. Most DnD players I know played WoD. Many of them left 2E DnD for WoD and returned with 3E DnD. Of the ones I know that didn't play WoD they mostly got into gaming after the nWoD when it was on a decline. For the record for numbers of the overlaping grous there is 15 players, 8 played WoD and DnD before it. 2 started with WoD, 4 started with in the last 5-6 years and started with 3E and only one never played WoD and was RPing in the 90's.
That's interesting; I guess I never pictured WoD appealing to the same crowd as DnD. Do they play both because they genuinely like both or because they have a few friends that are playing both but they themselves really are only particularly interested in one of them? I'm curious how much is genuine interest and how much is "well, my friends are playing it, so I might as well"? Neither is a bad reason to play, but the ratio can be an indicator of how likely it is to happen in a different community with different social groups.
That's interesting; I guess I never pictured WoD appealing to the same crowd as DnD. Do they play both because they genuinely like both or because they have a few friends that are playing both but they themselves really are only particularly interested in one of them? I'm curious how much is genuine interest and how much is "well, my friends are playing it, so I might as well"? Neither is a bad reason to play, but the ratio can be an indicator of how likely it is to happen in a different community with different social groups.
Me personally, I enjoyed both as well as Earthdawn, Shadowrun, Rifts from that era. I did not enjoy MERP, Rolemaster, the D6 based Star Wars, or Ars Magica (mechanically speaking, i did crib some ideas for Vampire/Mage from it); all of which I played because a friend was into it.
That's interesting; I guess I never pictured WoD appealing to the same crowd as DnD. Do they play both because they genuinely like both or because they have a few friends that are playing both but they themselves really are only particularly interested in one of them? I'm curious how much is genuine interest and how much is "well, my friends are playing it, so I might as well"? Neither is a bad reason to play, but the ratio can be an indicator of how likely it is to happen in a different community with different social groups.Me personally, I enjoyed both as well as Earthdawn, Shadowrun, Rifts from that era. I did not enjoy MERP, Rolemaster, the D6 based Star Wars, or Ars Magica (mechanically speaking, i did crib some ideas for Vampire/Mage from it); all of which I played because a friend was into it.
Interesting...I loved Shadowrun, D6 Star Wars(D64LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!), Marvel Super Heroes, and White Wolf.
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Not sure I would agree with WoD not targeting the same people. Most DnD players I know played WoD. Many of them left 2E DnD for WoD and returned with 3E DnD. Of the ones I know that didn't play WoD they mostly got into gaming after the nWoD when it was on a decline. For the record for numbers of the overlaping grous there is 15 players, 8 played WoD and DnD before it. 2 started with WoD, 4 started with in the last 5-6 years and started with 3E and only one never played WoD and was RPing in the 90's.That's interesting; I guess I never pictured WoD appealing to the same crowd as DnD. Do they play both because they genuinely like both or because they have a few friends that are playing both but they themselves really are only particularly interested in one of them? I'm curious how much is genuine interest and how much is "well, my friends are playing it, so I might as well"? Neither is a bad reason to play, but the ratio can be an indicator of how likely it is to happen in a different community with different social groups.
All but one of them seemed to really enjoy it. One I would say he didn't hate it but did it cause that was what the group did.(some of them was the same group I had played with before) We are like Dragonsong, most of us have and or do play in a variety of games. I have rarely meet anyone that only plays a single game and thats it. Most people I know play and enjoy a variety of games and most like to switch up now and again as a change of pace.
Now when it comes to preferred games, I would say it is a bit all over. I know one guy likes Space master most(scifi version of Rolemaster), a couple like WoD old one, one is toon(don't ask), a couple is DnD etc. But the thing I have noticed is this. While not everyone likes most of the other games. Everyone in the people I know would rate DnD in their top 3 best RPG's. No one actively dislikes DnD, though some do dislike other games. *shrug*
Interesting...I loved Shadowrun, D6 Star Wars(D64LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!), Marvel Super Heroes, and White Wolf.That's interesting; I guess I never pictured WoD appealing to the same crowd as DnD. Do they play both because they genuinely like both or because they have a few friends that are playing both but they themselves really are only particularly interested in one of them? I'm curious how much is genuine interest and how much is "well, my friends are playing it, so I might as well"? Neither is a bad reason to play, but the ratio can be an indicator of how likely it is to happen in a different community with different social groups.Me personally, I enjoyed both as well as Earthdawn, Shadowrun, Rifts from that era. I did not enjoy MERP, Rolemaster, the D6 based Star Wars, or Ars Magica (mechanically speaking, i did crib some ideas for Vampire/Mage from it); all of which I played because a friend was into it.
I liked Marvel until I played Mayfair's DC Heroes the point buy and tweaks to the powers list really let me hone in on the supers concepts I Had. I, personally, would play both over Champions. I could see a lot of promise with Star Wars. I will admit that part of my problem was wanting to be a Vulpine (I think thats what they are called, the space bugs wo got bounses to tech skills) techie/ smuggler with a group that wanted to be Jedi's.
Addendum In response to Dark Mistress:
After you spoke about the mutiple game avenues your group uses I realized that I am currently the most "Game Monogamous" I have been in almost 20 years. Aside from playtesting a developing game for some friends the only thing even on my radar is PF. But i have also had less sucess finding gamers in Boulder, CO than I did anywhere I lived in the south.
I will admit that part of my problem was wanting to be a Vulpine (I think thats what they are called, the space bugs wo got bounses to tech skills) techie/ smuggler with a group that wanted to be Jedi's.
You mean Verpine.
I will admit that part of my problem was wanting to be a Vulpine (I think thats what they are called, the space bugs wo got bounses to tech skills) techie/ smuggler with a group that wanted to be Jedi's.You mean Verpine.
I did indeed thank you.
I liked Marvel until I played Mayfair's DC Heroes the point buy and tweaks to the powers list really let me hone in on the supers concepts I Had. I, personally, would play both over Champions. I could see a lot of promise with Star Wars. I will admit that part of my problem was wanting to be a Vulpine (I think thats what they are called, the space bugs wo got bounses to tech skills) techie/ smuggler with a group that wanted to be Jedi's.
After a few different campaigns in Star Wars Saga Edition, I've found that the cohesiveness and direction of the party plays a huge part of what kind of campaign it ends up being. I guess the same could be said for any RPG. but especially with Star Wars, if one player wants to be a Jedi, while the rest of the party wants to be space pirates and smugglers, it's just not going to work. I can think of a dozen ways a techie Verpine would fit great with a party of would-be Jedi, but every group is different.
Example
In the KotOR era game I ran, one player was a former Sith turned Jedi, who set out to try and save the galaxy, while another player was a stubborn smuggler who wanted nothing to do with saving anyone but himself. Imagine if Han Solo was even more of a prick at the beginning of Episode IV, and never came around... This is a great starting point for character development, but the thing is, throughout the campaign, the smuggler never budged or "developed", he did everything in his power to drag his heels and complain whenever the party did anything that didn't result in a massive paycheck. Pretty irritating from a GM standpoint, too.
EDIT: err, Verpine, I totally meant. Thanks Seldriss.
That's interesting; I guess I never pictured WoD appealing to the same crowd as DnD. Do they play both because they genuinely like both or because they have a few friends that are playing both but they themselves really are only particularly interested in one of them? I'm curious how much is genuine interest and how much is "well, my friends are playing it, so I might as well"? Neither is a bad reason to play, but the ratio can be an indicator of how likely it is to happen in a different community with different social groups.
I have played alot of different games over the years(I think the list is over thirty)...right now I am active in atleast 5 different games( 3.5/pathfinder, Rifts, Champions, Dark Hersey, L5R)...and looking to start a 7th Sea game. I love RPGs in general...though some I don't like....never liked WoD...I hated the confining storyline. But I have played mostly because I have friends who play it. And that is a important thing to me...if I enjoy the people I am playing with it usualy does not matter what system I am playing.
The thing I never understood is the system elitism I see. The idea of 4th ed(or insert whatever RPG you care to mention) and nothing else mentality. Never understood how the system can tear groups apart.
I can think of a dozen ways a techie Verpine would fit great with a party of would-be Jedi, but every group is different.
Example ** spoiler omitted **
EDIT: err, Verpine, I totally meant. Thanks Seldriss.
I would agree usually but sadly I was not able to keep up in the heavy Jedi mysticism bent the game took. It happens even with the best of intentions all around one of those cases that reinforced my belief that communication all the way around is hyper critical.
After a few different campaigns in Star Wars Saga Edition, I've found that the cohesiveness and direction of the party plays a huge part of what kind of campaign it ends up being. I guess the same could be said for any RPG. but especially with Star Wars, if one player wants to be a Jedi, while the rest of the party wants to be space pirates and smugglers, it's just not going to work. I can think of a dozen ways a techie Verpine would fit great with a party of would-be Jedi, but every group is different.
Example ** spoiler omitted **
We had a similar discussion last night on the way over. The smuggler in your example sounds a lot like the smuggler in the other story you mentioned yesterday. Coincidence? :)