Mearls pleading for unity


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The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Is it bad that I didn't know who Mike Mearls was until he was mentioned at a conversation at a pub on the weekend and even then I just nodded and smiled like I knew what they were joking about and then googled him when I got home......

What was the joke?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Jandrem wrote:
It's not going to be called 5e. It's going to fly in under the assumption that it's compatible with 4e, but still new and fresh, so they can have their restart and get rid of the old books at the same time.

This line reminds me of something I just can't put my finger on...


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Jandrem wrote:
It's not going to be called 5e. It's going to fly in under the assumption that it's compatible with 4e, but still new and fresh, so they can have their restart and get rid of the old books at the same time.
This line reminds me of something I just can't put my finger on...

Very true... 5e is going to be a great success!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

:)


Wow, I should have been a Koolaid salesman, instead.

Contributor

Jandrem wrote:
On the contrary, they've made a living off of their fan base arguing semantics(see the fluff conversation upthread). As long as they don't "technically" call it 5e, then it's not really 5e, and half their market share stays intact. It's all speculation and just opinion anyway, so I'm more than likely going to be wrong about this.

I'd say you already are.

Everyone knows how to count, so even if you take the numbers off and start putting on other labels, everyone knows what edition is what, especially since the benchmark of a new edition is discontinuing publication and support of the previous edition, and compatibility issues with accessories from the previous edition.


Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
Jandrem wrote:
On the contrary, they've made a living off of their fan base arguing semantics(see the fluff conversation upthread). As long as they don't "technically" call it 5e, then it's not really 5e, and half their market share stays intact. It's all speculation and just opinion anyway, so I'm more than likely going to be wrong about this.

I'd say you already are.

Everyone knows how to count, so even if you take the numbers off and start putting on other labels, everyone knows what edition is what, especially since the benchmark of a new edition is discontinuing publication and support of the previous edition, and compatibility issues with accessories from the previous edition.

Well, thank you for telling me how wrong I am for having an opinion. I didn't realize you already had insider-knowledge to WotC's next big move.


Now, now, boys - play nice, or I'll summon a daemon to put you in time out. Permanently. =]

Dark Archive

Power Word Unzip wrote:
Now, now, boys - play nice, or I'll summon a daemon to put you in time out. Permanently. =]

Daemon are wimps.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber

Meh, unity? You mean they feel we should recommend their products as equal to anything else? As in, they have a product that is just different?

Hmm. Let me see.

Where's my Dragon Magazine? No unity there.

Where's my Dungeon mag? No Unity there.

Where's software to create characters from every 3.5 Complete book I own? No Unity there.

Where's my Dragonlance for 3.5? No Unity there.

Wow, this is getting a little un-unified. In fact, it seems rather WIPED OUT!

If they think that edition wars was about people prefering a particular product over another, they are way way way sadly mistaken.

Its about how you treat a human being and the response you get for telling them what they should want.

That is what the edition wars are about. No forgiveness.

And I will never forgive them, ever.

But as individual people, they can be quite charming at times.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32

Hey, I'll agree that WotC screwed up their marketing for 4e, in epic fashion. But given how quickly they fire and lay off people, just wait three years when they release the next version and it'll be all new people there!

Seriously, I think Jandrem might be onto something, but I believe the next iteration will be vD&D: Virtual Dungeons & Dragons (also a clever fifth edition reference.) It will consist of a modified 4th edition ruleset and use a virtual tabletop/MMO style world to allow gamers to play D&D with their friends from across the world, though I imagine DMs will each have their version of the shared world to use and abuse as they see fit. I think Hasbro is getting heavily invested in electronics as opposed to physical products and will use the ruleset they have (4e) and put it online. I think the future is a subscription model and it will pretty much be the end of D&D as a tabletop game. And if it's cool, I will totally play it. Not because I dig 4e, but because I, too, have old gaming buddies around the world with whom it would be great to reconnect and game with.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber

On a side note, I still buy Dungeon Tiles.

Some Axis & Allies Games and sometimes the minis for the tabletop game War at Sea.

So, they got something trickling in.

Drip

Drip

Drip

Drop


James Martin wrote:

Hey, I'll agree that WotC screwed up their marketing for 4e, in epic fashion. But given how quickly they fire and lay off people, just wait three years when they release the next version and it'll be all new people there!

Seriously, I think Jandrem might be onto something, but I believe the next iteration will be vD&D: Virtual Dungeons & Dragons (also a clever fifth edition reference.) It will consist of a modified 4th edition ruleset and use a virtual tabletop/MMO style world to allow gamers to play D&D with their friends from across the world, though I imagine DMs will each have their version of the shared world to use and abuse as they see fit. I think Hasbro is getting heavily invested in electronics as opposed to physical products and will use the ruleset they have (4e) and put it online. I think the future is a subscription model and it will pretty much be the end of D&D as a tabletop game. And if it's cool, I will totally play it. Not because I dig 4e, but because I, too, have old gaming buddies around the world with whom it would be great to reconnect and game with.

Assuming you're correct (and who the heck knows, at this point), it would have to be one stellar interface to get me on board. For one thing, why not just play DDO if you want a D&D-themed MMO experience? Granted, it's built using the OGL as a framework and not 4E, but it's already there.

Of course, following your theoretical model, GMs would have the ability to change things and lay them out as they see fit - which you can't do in DDO. The problem with that is that such capabilities have to be EXTREMELY accessible and easy to use to garner sufficient subscriber numbers. Heck, I can't even figure out how to build anything too intricate with Little Big Planet, and that's probably less complicated than a fully-featured dungeon builder would be if they're going for a true MMO look and feel.

And then there's the real core of the problem for me as a player and GM, which is that the subscription model just plain irks me. Once I buy a Pathfinder AP, I can run it again and again and again if I so desire, without spending an additional dime for that content. That just isn't the case with a program such as the one you describe.

Finally, the main question that keeps running through in my mind is: if WotC can't manage to produce a good character builder for a monthly subscription cost and deliver on the many promises they made in the course of the digital initiative, what the heck will make consumers believe they can deliver content of the quality such an undertaking suggests?


Dark_Mistress wrote:
Power Word Unzip wrote:
Now, now, boys - play nice, or I'll summon a daemon to put you in time out. Permanently. =]
Daemon are wimps.

This guy begs to differ with your hasty and ill-formed conclusion. =]

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32

I expect that they'll quietly contract out the creation of the software to someone else, and assign their own people as world builders and creative consultants.

NeverWinter Nights had a system like the one you describe and it managed to get a ton of modules made for it, so I imagine it can be done, just not so well in house.

And I think 4e's digital initiative was a test run to see if it was at all plausible, and I think it showed them that it was. It also allowed them to gain a TON of information on gaming habits while the gamers paid them to do it, and that's just brilliant by any measure.

Dark Archive

Power Word Unzip wrote:
Dark_Mistress wrote:
Power Word Unzip wrote:
Now, now, boys - play nice, or I'll summon a daemon to put you in time out. Permanently. =]
Daemon are wimps.
This guy begs to differ with your hasty and ill-formed conclusion. =]

And boring... Me crush, eat soul

*yawn*

us demons now we are scary, we seduce you, destroy you, all the while you love every moment of it and beg for more.


vD&D? It sounds so ... venereal. Not the type of infection I want to encounter. ;-)

The Exchange

James Martin wrote:


Seriously, I think Jandrem might be onto something, but I believe the next iteration will be vD&D: Virtual Dungeons & Dragons (also a clever fifth edition reference.)

"So, what are you doing tonight?"

"I have a VD and D session."
"A VD session?"
"Yeah, I'll be playing by myself at home."
"... okay ..."

Mind you, they told a bunch of people who were willing to spend thousands of dollars annually on their hobby to get lost as part of their marketing for 4ed, so who am I to judge their marketing geniuses.

Edit: Drat, ninja'd by Urizen!

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32

Urizen wrote:
vD&D? It sounds so ... venereal. Not the type of infection I want to encounter. ;-)

"Catch the fever!"


James Martin wrote:
Urizen wrote:
vD&D? It sounds so ... venereal. Not the type of infection I want to encounter. ;-)
"Catch the fever!"

Their holiday promotion could be, "Give the Gift That Keeps On Giving!"


Dark_Mistress wrote:
Power Word Unzip wrote:
Dark_Mistress wrote:
Power Word Unzip wrote:
Now, now, boys - play nice, or I'll summon a daemon to put you in time out. Permanently. =]
Daemon are wimps.
This guy begs to differ with your hasty and ill-formed conclusion. =]

And boring... Me crush, eat soul

*yawn*

us demons now we are scary, we seduce you, destroy you, all the while you love every moment of it and beg for more.

Well, you know what they say: When the only tool you have is a hammer, you might as well smash the ever-loving crap out of your enemies.


Power Word Unzip wrote:
James Martin wrote:
Urizen wrote:
vD&D? It sounds so ... venereal. Not the type of infection I want to encounter. ;-)
"Catch the fever!"
Their holiday promotion could be, "Give the Gift That Keeps On Giving!"

You, sir, get The Clap!

*golf clap*


Infectious, the clap.

;-)

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32

Power Word Unzip wrote:
James Martin wrote:
Urizen wrote:
vD&D? It sounds so ... venereal. Not the type of infection I want to encounter. ;-)
"Catch the fever!"
Their holiday promotion could be, "Give the Gift That Keeps On Giving!"

"Spread the love! Give vD&D to a friend!"


Urizen wrote:

Infectious, the clap.

;-)

I couldn't agree more.


Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
Jandrem wrote:
On the contrary, they've made a living off of their fan base arguing semantics(see the fluff conversation upthread). As long as they don't "technically" call it 5e, then it's not really 5e, and half their market share stays intact. It's all speculation and just opinion anyway, so I'm more than likely going to be wrong about this.

I'd say you already are.

Everyone knows how to count, so even if you take the numbers off and start putting on other labels, everyone knows what edition is what, especially since the benchmark of a new edition is discontinuing publication and support of the previous edition, and compatibility issues with accessories from the previous edition.

You split the difference. They wait a few years and then they don't eliminate everyones library all at once. Instead they announce that the only thing being updated is the 1st players handbook. The update will be compatible with practically everything else that they have put out. All it is is an update of the original classes using everything they have so far learned so some powers will move around and some of the wording will change. A few will be added and some will be eliminated but the overall goal is to improve the classes. They are scrupulous about making sure that martial power and the rest of the books still work. Oh sure there are a few problem powers and such but they put significant effort into making sure that these get an errata and they are very responsive when the character optimizers show how build X or Y is busted when its combined with some option from Open Grave.

Do the same with PHB2 the next year but also release a new compendium style book with both PHB1 and PHB2 included. Now if they can pull this off and they really are improvements then I'm not even really complaining even as they eliminate two of my books. Its not like they wiped out my library over night. Done carefully they can pretty much cycle through my whole library and never get it to the point where I'm not basically happy with the improvements. Eventually they even get back around to new versions of the Essentials classes.

They have even already, more or less, pulled it off in one case. Monster Vault is pretty much Monster Manual 1 all over again - but its clearly a superior product (admittedly it was easy here - MM1 really was not that good a monster book and what has been learned in how to make good monsters since its release is pretty dramatic). Now Monster Manual 1 has not been discontinued. The nature of 4Es monster system meant that you can straight up have multiple versions of kobolds or Red Dragons and one does not nullify the other. However when I'm picking monsters for my adventure I'm leaning hard toward Monster Vault monsters and not MM1 monsters because the Monster Vault ones are better versions of the same monsters.

The end result is 4E never really dies - their customer base never unsubscribes enmasse but at some point all the material I'm using has been updated and come out in another compilation - note though that the books themselves are not the big sellers, they are a supplement for those people who like books - everything is always also available on the DDI. The real goal is keeping me interested in the DDI - this is Blizzards model and its a very good model.


Power Word Unzip wrote:
Urizen wrote:

Infectious, the clap.

;-)

I couldn't agree more.

\m/(o,o)\m/ Rawk on!


As to the virtual table top becoming the new D&D. Especially the idea that it'll be where they announce a new D&D. The VTT is basically competition for Fantasy Grounds and the like. Nothing we have seen recently appears to make it much more then that with WotC IP supported.

If it is, some how, possible to get everyone to play the game in that manner (again I doubt it, fun D&D is not so much the rules of the game but a social experience...VTT can't replace that) they don't start that off by announcing - everyone give up getting together with your friends on Thursday for our new online game. Instead you release the VTT and see if, all of a sudden, every one gives up game night (which I very much doubt would happen - I'd rather play charades with my buddies on Thursday night then play the VTT all alone). If people abandon game night en masse your good to go...otherwise you stick with making a table top game with the VTT as one more incentive for people to subscribe.


Power Word Unzip wrote:
Dark_Mistress wrote:
Power Word Unzip wrote:
Now, now, boys - play nice, or I'll summon a daemon to put you in time out. Permanently. =]
Daemon are wimps.
This guy begs to differ with your hasty and ill-formed conclusion. =]

That's their leader? He has a challenge rating. Wimptastic.


John Kretzer wrote:
The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Is it bad that I didn't know who Mike Mearls was until he was mentioned at a conversation at a pub on the weekend and even then I just nodded and smiled like I knew what they were joking about and then googled him when I got home......
What was the joke?

The Mike Mearls ruined everything meme..


Dark_Mistress wrote:


Daemon are wimps.

*eyebrow*

;)


The 8th Dwarf wrote:
John Kretzer wrote:
The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Is it bad that I didn't know who Mike Mearls was until he was mentioned at a conversation at a pub on the weekend and even then I just nodded and smiled like I knew what they were joking about and then googled him when I got home......
What was the joke?
The Mike Mearls ruined everything meme..

Is this a bad time to mention my long-standing enmnity with people named Mike?


Zuxius wrote:

On a side note, I still buy Dungeon Tiles.

Some Axis & Allies Games and sometimes the minis for the tabletop game War at Sea.

So, they got something trickling in.

Drip

Drip

Drip

Drop

I thought Axis & Allies minis were also getting axed.

Silver Crusade

Dark_Mistress wrote:

*yawn*

us demons now we are scary, we seduce you, destroy you, all the while you love every moment of it and beg for more.

I like my damnation like I like my coffee. Eternal and excruciating with a possibility for promotion.

...

We got some weird blends in our area.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Mikaze wrote:
I like my damnation like I like my coffee.

In a plastic cup? ;)

Liberty's Edge

Mikaze wrote:
I like my damnation like I like my coffee.

Full of herring? Mmm, herring.

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

Mikaze wrote:


At least we got Jet Set Radio, Powerstone, Resident Evil: Code Veronica, Berserk, Phantasy Star Online and Soul Calibur out of it before it keeled over.

Don't forget Shenmue! That was probably the most beautiful, engaging, and fun game I've ever played that could also accurately be described as boring.

I loved it! :)


Erik Mona wrote:
Mikaze wrote:


At least we got Jet Set Radio, Powerstone, Resident Evil: Code Veronica, Berserk, Phantasy Star Online and Soul Calibur out of it before it keeled over.

Don't forget Shenmue! That was probably the most beautiful, engaging, and fun game I've ever played that could also accurately be described as boring.

I loved it! :)

Are you sending us a secret message? You are, aren't you! Where's my Mona decoder ring?

Liberty's Edge

Erik Mona wrote:
Mikaze wrote:


At least we got Jet Set Radio, Powerstone, Resident Evil: Code Veronica, Berserk, Phantasy Star Online and Soul Calibur out of it before it keeled over.

Don't forget Shenmue! That was probably the most beautiful, engaging, and fun game I've ever played that could also accurately be described as boring.

I loved it! :)

*pours a 40 on the curb for dreamcast*

Silver Crusade

On damnation, yes. All of the above.

Erik Mona wrote:
Mikaze wrote:


At least we got Jet Set Radio, Powerstone, Resident Evil: Code Veronica, Berserk, Phantasy Star Online and Soul Calibur out of it before it keeled over.

Don't forget Shenmue! That was probably the most beautiful, engaging, and fun game I've ever played that could also accurately be described as boring.

I loved it! :)

Oh man, my heart really does go out to Shenmue fans that are still waiting for the third game. They've got it even worse than those of us waiting on Half-life 2 Episode 3.

...then again, Duke Nukem Forever has managed to beat both of them to the store shelves.....geez....

At the very least Sega is still talking about it like it'll happen eventually.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Mikaze wrote:

On damnation, yes. All of the above.

Erik Mona wrote:
Mikaze wrote:


At least we got Jet Set Radio, Powerstone, Resident Evil: Code Veronica, Berserk, Phantasy Star Online and Soul Calibur out of it before it keeled over.

Don't forget Shenmue! That was probably the most beautiful, engaging, and fun game I've ever played that could also accurately be described as boring.

I loved it! :)

Oh man, my heart really does go out to Shenmue fans that are still waiting for the third game. They've got it even worse than those of us waiting on Half-life 2 Episode 3.

...then again, Duke Nukem Forever has managed to beat both of them to the store shelves.....geez....

I disbelief that Duke Nukem Forever exists. ;)

Liberty's Edge

Mikaze wrote:

On damnation, yes. All of the above.

Erik Mona wrote:
Mikaze wrote:


At least we got Jet Set Radio, Powerstone, Resident Evil: Code Veronica, Berserk, Phantasy Star Online and Soul Calibur out of it before it keeled over.

Don't forget Shenmue! That was probably the most beautiful, engaging, and fun game I've ever played that could also accurately be described as boring.

I loved it! :)

Oh man, my heart really does go out to Shenmue fans that are still waiting for the third game. They've got it even worse than those of us waiting on Half-life 2 Episode 3.

...then again, Duke Nukem Forever has managed to beat both of them to the store shelves.....geez....

*rocks, sobbing*

Where is my Episode 3!? Aperture! X_X

Silver Crusade

Justin Franklin wrote:
I disbelief that Duke Nukem Forever exists. ;)

I don't want the magic to be over either, but even the best running gags have to come to a close some day. :)

(holy crap I just realized that Third Edition D&D, both 3.0 and 3.5, AND the release of 4th Edition all happened within the span of Duke Nukem Forever's development. WOW)

Liberty's Edge

Mikaze wrote:
Justin Franklin wrote:
I disbelief that Duke Nukem Forever exists. ;)
I don't want the magic to be over either, but even the best running gags have to come to a close some day. :)

The cake is a lie!

All your base are belong to us!
Hey Macarena!


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Studpuffin wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
Justin Franklin wrote:
I disbelief that Duke Nukem Forever exists. ;)
I don't want the magic to be over either, but even the best running gags have to come to a close some day. :)

The cake is a lie!

All your base are belong to us!
Hey Macarena!

Time to YouTube Jonathon Coulton.

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

Was Shenmue 2 ever released in the US? I had to get one from China that I had to use a bootleg international decoder disk to even play, and that got tedious after a while so I quit.

I cannot bring myself to throw out my Dreamcast, though. I probably never will.

Silver Crusade

Erik Mona wrote:

Was Shenmue 2 ever released in the US? I had to get one from China that I had to use a bootleg international decoder disk to even play, and that got tedious after a while so I quit.

I cannot bring myself to throw out my Dreamcast, though. I probably never will.

IIRC, it was released Stateside on the original Xbox in 2003. Europe got it on Dreamcast in 2001. The Xbox version is probably easy enough to track down used. I'm not sure if it'll run perfectly on an Xbox360 or not....

And never throw a console away! (even if it's a NES you have to blow into and tap just right to work properly ;) )


Erik Mona wrote:
Mikaze wrote:


At least we got Jet Set Radio, Powerstone, Resident Evil: Code Veronica, Berserk, Phantasy Star Online and Soul Calibur out of it before it keeled over.

Don't forget Shenmue! That was probably the most beautiful, engaging, and fun game I've ever played that could also accurately be described as boring.

I loved it! :)

Once described by my friend as "Virtua S*&#-Job" for the forklift thing. Incidentally, he loved it too.


Justin Franklin wrote:


I disbelief that Duke Nukem Forever exists. ;)

You're welcome :)

link


Erik Mona wrote:

Was Shenmue 2 ever released in the US? I had to get one from China that I had to use a bootleg international decoder disk to even play, and that got tedious after a while so I quit.

I cannot bring myself to throw out my Dreamcast, though. I probably never will.

Biggest. Fistbump. Evar.

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