I think my perfect gamesystem has a certain limit in rules options - my preference would be for Paizo to produce more fluff and less crunch.Paizo produces lots and lots of fluff: The Campaign Setting (formerly Chronicles) stuff is mostly fluff. Even the Player Companions have plenty of fluff in them.
Modules and APs have a lot of rules content, but that's because they're modules. Can't do them without that stuff.
That only really leaves the RPG line as mostly crunch. And since it's the RPG line, the line for setting-neutral rules, it needs to be mostly crunch. And that line gets 3-4 books a year at most.
Yeah I understand what Paizo are doing. My point (though I'm no doubt in a pretty serious minority) was that I don't want the system to grow at a rate of 3-4 books per year. I was saying that I'd personally be very happy if they stopped the line as it is and increased the resources they devote to the setting.
Yeah I understand what Paizo are doing. My point (though I'm no doubt in a pretty serious minority) was that I don't want the system to grow at a rate of 3-4 books per year. I was saying that I'd personally be very happy if they stopped the line as it is and increased the resources they devote to the setting.
However, from the Paizo point of view it would not be reasonable. As it is clear from many posts on the forum lots of people playing Pathfinder do not use Golarion setting at all - limiting development to setting only would alienate many of them.
Also, there is great potential for nonsetting books focusing on specific topics without excessive bloating of mechanics (there were lists in other topics of desired books).
It took me a long time to realise that when I buy a role-playing game I'm the one who gets to decide how it works. If you want rules-lite than choose the rules you want and ignore the rest. Rules heavy? Add the rules that you want and run with it. Dislike the setting? Throw it away and write your own. But if you're into organised play or you and your players need the consistency of using the rules as sold then check the errata. The best thing that came out for 3.5 was the Rules Compendium which gethered all the information on the various key rules in one place rather than having them scattered across several volumes. That's what I'd like to see for Pathfinder rather than a 2nd edition.
...to not come out for 6 to 8 years.
Try 10-12.
Hey, I can dream.
Also - to be completely backwards-compatible. The next "edition" should simply be a rules clarification update, though there aren't that many rules that need clarifying.
- No more ability damage
- No alignment
- No save or loose spells... actually I don't like saving throws at all and would prefer to hit different defenses such as touch AC or spell AC
Fixed defenses replacing initial saving throws were one of the better changes made in 4th edtion but there remains problem with following saving throws every round - which isn't so good.
Personally, for the sake of people playing characters with spells, I'd like to see some rolls. I think making the PC roll to see if their spell hits is much more proactive and fun than having the DM roll a monster's save for them, determining the effectiveness of it. Just a thought.
Erick Wujick once said in his postscript to Amber Diceless Roleplaying System that if you truly mastered playing Amber, you'd finish by throwing away his rules.
Except there was little to throw away in the first place. Amber was mostly usable as a reference for minor details and source of series timeline when needed than anything else.
It really surprises me how often this comes up. The longer they wait to put out a 2nd edition, the better. Paizo made a great move when they released Pathfinder (because it was SO similar to 3.5 IMO) overhauling the Pathfinder system now or anytime soon would be foolish.
Discuss campaign ideas or anything else really. Leave this alone.
Also, there is great potential for nonsetting books focusing on specific topics without excessive bloating of mechanics (there were lists in other topics of desired books).
They'd be better off just publishing adventures and setting specific books.
So instead of things like Gods and Magic...
Pathfinder 2.0 Chronicles - Attacks of Opportunity and You!
Prepare to strike! Make your opponents regret letting their guard down! This companion book contains thirty pages of advice and tips and tricks on how to make attacks of opportunity, and how to make them as dramatic and grueling as possible! Plus, included are optional rules on more actions that provoke them!
It would like, contain a feat that lets you AoO creatures that 5-ft. step.
So instead of things like Gods and Magic...
Pathfinder 2.0 Chronicles - Attacks of Opportunity and You!
Prepare to strike! Make your opponents regret letting their guard down! This companion book contains thirty pages of advice and tips and tricks on how to make attacks of opportunity, and how to make them as dramatic and grueling as possible! Plus, included are optional rules on more actions that provoke them!It would like, contain a feat that lets you AoO creatures that 5-ft. step.
The problem is who is going to buy that?
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...to not come out for 6 to 8 years.
+infinity.
The idea of a second edition is fully supported by me. Just not for years and years.
Actually, I'd like to see them do what WotC did (I know, I know! here me out!) with Saga Edition.
WotC put out Star Wars Saga Edition in the later half of 3.5, and it has a fair amount of 4th edition stuff in it - the way force powers work, the way skills are handled, simplification of actions, and so on. (incidentally, it also manages to avoid the "combat is the exact same, just takes <current_level> rounds to resolve" issue 4th has; patch Skill Focus (min level 5, with +10 after 11th level) and the system holds up pretty well).
So what I'd like to see is, in 3-4 years, Piazo puts out a d20 Space RPG, a fully-developed, completely independent system that also incorporates many of the new ideas they've got in the works for 2nd edition. People familiar with Pathfinder will recognize many things, and see many new things. Later on, people familiar with Pathfinder 2 will recognize other things in the system.
I could provide a laundry list of things I'd like to see changed. Frankly, that would be premature. So the one thing I will say for now:
For the benefit of our international friends, I'd like to see a core book under 4lbs. :)
Saga really nailed it. The pacing was excellent, the action was far more flexible and dramatic, and the system was far more streamlined. It also made non-combat characters combat viable and having it make thematic sense. It essentially was 3.5 FIXED.I know it isn't coming anytime soon, but I'd leap for joy if Pathfinder 2E came out tomorrow. I don't care at all about 3.5, Pathfinder was a way of rebooting the system and getting rid of all the bloat.
+1
I, and a lot of players I know, don't care about 3.5 comparability. We just want an awesome game.
While I don't disagree with the OP's statement, I think the prime purpose of a 2nd edition for now should be to wait until the 1e has had a nice long run (say 8-10 years).
I mean, c'mon, the core rulebook was 1st published a mere 18 mos. or so ago. WAAAAAY too early to talk about a 2e.
+1.
Just not needed.
The one thing I would like to see in 2nd Edition would be the removal of Acid and the damage type for elemental earth.
And making it physical? And where would the acid end up?
Just asking...
My wish list and things that I think would actually justify a full system rewrite vice a minor revision.
.
.
- No more ability damage
- No alignment
- No save or loose spells... actually I don't like saving throws at all and would prefer to hit different defenses such as touch AC or spell AC
-1
Go play 4th ed.
Also I hated Star Wars Saga...please let not turn Pathfinder into these.
Personaly the best skill system ever was 3.5....sure not everyone like dit but I think the one Pathfinder came up with is a very good compromise.
Also I would like to see it in maybe 10 years...for those who want to see it sooner...you are lucky to have such disposable income...I don't.
By the way for those who think a game news a new edition every 5 years...i'll point to Palladium....say what you want about the rules system....but they have been around a lomg time and have managed to continue to survive even in this economy...even after some stole millions from them...and after a lawsuit to protect their IP. Got to be doing something right. Sure you may despies them and their rules but shouldn't Pathfinder with it's better rules and products last longer than a mere 5 years.
The problem is who is going to buy that?So instead of things like Gods and Magic...
Pathfinder 2.0 Chronicles - Attacks of Opportunity and You!
Prepare to strike! Make your opponents regret letting their guard down! This companion book contains thirty pages of advice and tips and tricks on how to make attacks of opportunity, and how to make them as dramatic and grueling as possible! Plus, included are optional rules on more actions that provoke them!It would like, contain a feat that lets you AoO creatures that 5-ft. step.
Hm. Looking back, I didn't make that product sound crappy enough. I suppose I was going for "nobody would buy it."
A couple of possible answers
the easy one. To not be needed. It seems that the pathfinder community/player base more so than other games really likes the most of the prpg rules. It's a large reason why the game exists. If I was a Paizo manager I would be very hesitant to rock the boat too much.
Actually, the reason is definitely not "we hate change" (or nobody would have gotten PF when the 3e books were still there).
The reasons for the existence of the big PF fanbase are mainly "The time for a new edition has not yet come", "4e is not the game we want" and "You guys are a lot nicer than that other company".
I think PF2e won't be a problem:
The Paizo people have repeatedly said that PF2e will come around 2020, not sooner. Since Paizo has a good track record of kept promises and being truthful, I believe that they don't intent to make it sooner. I think that they'll bring 2e only when they - and the majority of their fans/customers - think that the time has come.
These guys also seem to know what they're doing when it comes to the rules and feel of the game. So I'm quite confident that when they do a new edition, it will still feel like Pathfinder. It won't change the history of the game (and the game that came before), and they won't change the setting to accommodate the changes.
And finally, I don't think they'll just stop being nice guys one day.
Something that would appeal to me would be to really shake up the rules (example changing the core abilities, etc) while maintaining the original product line. Basically when Jason designed Pathfinder he explicitly stated his objective was to stay true to D&D 3.5 which limited how creative he could be. I'd like to see what he could or would do without that constraint. Again while fully maintaining (bringing new products to market) pathfinder 1.0
Unless they become a lot bigger in the next years, they don't really have the manpower to do two games at once. After all, they'd need to do modules and APs for both systems, in addition to RPG books for both systems. Campaign Setting stuff could be done dual-sys, I guess, but I think the APs and RPG stuff is where it all happens for Paizo.
I do hope that when they do a new edition, they will not burden themselves overmuch with backwards compatibility for rules. The important part is that they'll retain backwards compatibility for fluff!
I don't think they'll just stop being nice guys one day.
In fairness, we're talking about a company, not the individuals it comprises. Companies have cultures, true, but that's not quite the same thing. After all, many of the nice people to whom you are referring used to work for WotC!
I'd also love to see a 2e. 2e could be done next year and I'd be more than happy, if it was a good system. Current Pathfinder isn't a young system, it's roots are really over ten years old. The mechanics are old, there are some definite elements that can be improved.
I'd rather paizo kept the system fresh with regular revisions, and not allow it to stagnate and flounder under the weight of tons of bloat. They have to release material to turn a profit, so either it's a fresh new take on the system, or more crap thrown in on top of it.
The next iteration should definitely focus on speed, combat is way to slow. Nothing close to 4e, 4e combat was interactive, and quick, but lost too much RP. We need RP while maintaining fun, and interactive. I loved the prospect of melee classes getting interesting effects. 4e dropped the ball hard in makes the interesting effects feel more like anime effects.
All in all, I hope this doesn't go 10 years with out a refresh.
I don't think they'll just stop being nice guys one day.In fairness, we're talking about a company, not the individuals it comprises. Companies have cultures, true, but that's not quite the same thing. After all, many of the nice people to whom you are referring used to work for WotC!
More importantly the CEO of Paizo is a gamer, and uses the products they sell. No matter how cool the D&D Brand Manager is, he still has to answer to the quarterly earnings report and all the overhead from being owned by Hasbro.
If Paizo is ever sold to a toy company, I'd start to be worried.
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Go play 4th ed.
Such a well reasoned and thoughtful response. Guess I shouldn't have expected much more. For the record I do play 4E and its not a game without merit. Sadly WotC seems to have forgotten how to write a good adventure, as all the published ones (and especially all the LFR mods I played) are not fun.
By the way for those who think a game news a new edition every 5 years...i'll point to Palladium....say what you want about the rules system....but they have been around a lomg time and have managed to continue to survive even in this economy...even after some stole millions from them...and after a lawsuit to protect their IP. Got to be doing something right. Sure you may despies them and their rules but shouldn't Pathfinder with it's better rules and products last longer than a mere 5 years.
I doubt Palladiums level of success is what the good folks at Paizo desire.
Also, if you think its fun to be shut out of the fight because monster X hit you with a save or go sit in a corner spell then I don't think we're having the same experiences at all. And for the record, unlike those screaming for a new book now to fix stealth (?) I don't think any of this is super urgent. I do think that it breaks the flow of the game when I have to stop and give a short lecture on how to handle con damage in the middle of combat to my players when the fighter takes poison damage.
To the original point, A Prime Purpose of a Pathfinder 2nd Edition Should Be...
To not come into existence until there's a need, agreed upon by the illustrious staff at Paizo and the gamers who support them, that the time has come to move on to a new edition. Everything in its time. When that time comes, rules can be looked at, spells tweaked, classes overhauled. But Pathfinder 2.0 shouldn't come about until the majority of people who love the game are ready to move on.
Yeah I understand what Paizo are doing. My point (though I'm no doubt in a pretty serious minority) was that I don't want the system to grow at a rate of 3-4 books per year. I was saying that I'd personally be very happy if they stopped the line as it is and increased the resources they devote to the setting.However, from the Paizo point of view it would not be reasonable. As it is clear from many posts on the forum lots of people playing Pathfinder do not use Golarion setting at all - limiting development to setting only would alienate many of them.
I hoped to capture this with the 'pretty serious minority' remark.
Essentially, I'm not expecting to have my preferences met - nonetheless, there have been one or two times where I didn't say anything and then Paizo changed something I quite liked. I don't see any point in not stating my wants or interests just because most people disagree - I think that would only be a problem if I started clamouring about how 'obviously correct' my prefered approach is.
Essentially, I'm not expecting to have my preferences met - nonetheless, there have been one or two times where I didn't say anything and then Paizo changed something I quite liked. I don't see any point in not stating my wants or interests just because most people disagree - I think that would only be a problem if I started clamouring about how 'obviously correct' my prefered approach is.
And you are completly right. I think the developers here at least listen to opinions of everyone as long as they are reasonable and try to find the way to please as large part of pathfinder players as they can. However sometimes choices must be made between incompatibile options. And focusing solely on setting materials is rather incompatibile with retaining materials that aren't setting specific.
...
It can sit next to sonic. Sonic gets lonely all by it's self with only a few visits from Force every now and then.
There are other damage types that are not linked to an element. I see no reason to link a damage type that really isnt all that fitting for the element it represents. Heck I would even take Sonic as the energy type for Earth (vibration/temors) before I see acid fitting.
Also have to second the folks that dont want to see a 2nd edition coming anytime soon. I would rather they wait and when they do a 2nd edition have it really address things that need to be addressed rather than rush it and carry over a lot of the same things that could have used improving.
Heh, sonic is actually everone's (crash of the waves, crackle and hiss of the flame, hurricane roar to add a few and of course that almost everyting does make a sound in one way or another, as it's really a vibration wave that we can or can't detect), just like the force is probably. Acid are minerals dissolved in water, thus it's wearth/water and water has been already given cold (it could have had electricity as well, but that was given to air IMO because the cold is in direct opposition to fire).
Go play 4th ed.
Such a well reasoned and thoughtful response. Guess I shouldn't have expected much more. For the record I do play 4E and its not a game without merit. Sadly WotC seems to have forgotten how to write a good adventure, as all the published ones (and especially all the LFR mods I played) are not fun.
By the way for those who think a game news a new edition every 5 years...i'll point to Palladium....say what you want about the rules system....but they have been around a lomg time and have managed to continue to survive even in this economy...even after some stole millions from them...and after a lawsuit to protect their IP. Got to be doing something right. Sure you may despies them and their rules but shouldn't Pathfinder with it's better rules and products last longer than a mere 5 years.
I doubt Palladiums level of success is what the good folks at Paizo desire.
Also, if you think its fun to be shut out of the fight because monster X hit you with a save or go sit in a corner spell then I don't think we're having the same experiences at all. And for the record, unlike those screaming for a new book now to fix stealth (?) I don't think any of this is super urgent. I do think that it breaks the flow of the game when I have to stop and give a short lecture on how to handle con damage in the middle of combat to my players when the fighter takes poison damage.
Why did you take my comment as a insult? Is there a problem with plating a game system? While I don't like 4th ed...people do. But if somebody complained about things like the above list than I would suggest go play that game. No insult was intended...not every game is intended for everyone. People do have different taste. What you suggest would mean I could not play the kinda game I want...so how is that fair. Pathfinder already changed alot to applease people who like the game you like...how much compromise do I have to give?
As to Palladium success...I imagine Pazio would be thrilled to have their success. With very meh rule set and a guy with the bussiness sense of a rock they have managed to stay in bussiness the longest out of any gaming company currently out there( with the exception of Hero games and maybe Whit Wolf)...
I think Pazio with a better rule set and people working for them with actual bussiness sense reaaly don't need to change editions just yet.
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Why did you take my comment as a insult? Is there a problem with plating a game system? While I don't like 4th ed...people do. But if somebody complained about things like the above list than I would suggest go play that game. No insult was intended...not every game is intended for everyone. People do have different taste. What you suggest would mean I could not play the kinda game I want...so how is that fair. Pathfinder already changed alot to applease people who like the game you like...how much compromise do I have to give?As to Palladium success...I imagine Pazio would be thrilled to have their success. With very meh rule set and a guy with the bussiness sense of a rock they have managed to stay in bussiness the longest out of any gaming company currently out there( with the exception of Hero games and maybe Whit Wolf)...
I think Pazio with a better rule set and people working for them with actual bussiness sense reaaly don't need to change editions just yet.
I am having difficulty parsing your comments, so I'll try to respond as I understand them.
There's significantly more to 4E than the items I mentioned. The list is long and obvious.
I don't require you to compromise one iota. I do hope that Paizo keeps aware of trends in the gaming industry and isn't too stuck in their ways to use a good idea when they find it.
My friend said it best when I mentioned your post to him "Pallaidum who?"
I would also like to see some kind of non-class benefit for levels 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18. At all other levels, PCs get a non-class benefit of some kind, such as a regular feat or an ability score improvement. I think some racial traits would be good for these "dead" levels. They can be used for some iconic but over-powered for first level abilities that some races might have, like flight, spell resistance, racial spell-like or supernatural abilities, water breathing, natural armor increases, energy resistances, extra traits, new ways to use certain skills, feats, spells, or class features, etc. etc.
Nice one- I really like this idea. :)
What I want to see for Pathfinder 2-
1) Fix the problems that 4e fixed, but keep the flexibility of char. gen. that Pathfinder has.
2) It must ABSOLUTELY not be just a minor revision or rules clarification, but an actual new edition. I wouldn't waste my money on anything less.
3) Don't worry about backwards compatibility at all. The only thing that should stay compatible is fluff when making an edition change.
4) An end to iterative attacks, as someone stated above. They're so much more trouble than they're worth. (See the Gunslinger playtest for an excellent example of this.)
5) Maintain the Pathfinder tradition of open playtesting- give it a full alpha/beta/final playtest cycle. With multiple releases of each, if necessary.
All of this can wait quite a while, tho- as my group doesn't get through APs very quick. :)
As to Palladium success...I imagine Pazio would be thrilled to have their success. With very meh rule set and a guy with the bussiness sense of a rock they have managed to stay in bussiness the longest out of any gaming company currently out there( with the exception of Hero games and maybe Whit Wolf)...
Steve Jackson Games is here a bit longer than Palladium Books and seems to be fine. Chaosium and ICE still exist after all those years. White Wolf is quite young in comparison to them (Oh, they changed website. Haven't been there for some time... ).
I don't think they'll just stop being nice guys one day.In fairness, we're talking about a company, not the individuals it comprises. Companies have cultures, true, but that's not quite the same thing. After all, many of the nice people to whom you are referring used to work for WotC!
Paizo made being nice and affable a company policy. And I don't know for sure, but I'm quite sure those people we're talking about were nice people even back when they worked for wotc.
wotc might or might not have nice people working there, but it doesn't matter since rudeness and complete disregard to a certain part of their potential customer base pretty much is a company policy for them. Regardless of what some of their employees think about these things, the official responses where what drove people away.
And it makes sense: No matter how nice some employees might be, if the company itself shows unacceptable behaviour, you don't give it any money.
The opposite works, too: Most people working at Paizo are probably nice people. Maybe all. I don't know any of them personally, only from the boards (where they seem nice enough), so I can't say for sure.
But even if they might happen to have some complete bastard working for them, that guy will not be rude to the fan-base, since it's against the company's policy. Such a person might risk being fired when he lashes out against people here.
So Paizo consists of people who are by all appearances nice and affable, and that is further reinforced by a general "be nice to people" company policy.
Beyond that, Paizo seems like a company comprised of people who actually care about what they're doing, all of them, and to make a profit by making great stuff people will want to buy. They're a company composed of gamers. They make people feel like they're more than just a company out for our money.
wotc just doesn't. Individual staffers might have that opinion, but they don't manage to make it stick to the company they work for.
I'd rather paizo kept the system fresh with regular revisions
Among the PFRPG fan base, you're a minority with that. If Paizo started releasing a new core rulebook every couple of years, they'd probably haemorrhage customers.
1) It should be called TruePathfinder.
2) Not come out any time soon.
3) Should be Pathfinder Modern.
As an aside and not to derail:
I ask this in all honesty. I ask because I was very disappointed.
My impression (maybe faulty): the skill system is even more restrictive than 3.5 and Jedi are one trick a fight ponies with none of the movie fluff. Force Jump is an encounter power? How many encounters is the final battle in Phantom Menace?
1) to instate Nick Logue at a very central position of design.
2) to shift the design guidelines so that Hook Mountain Massacre once again becomes possible.
I can dream, can't I?
There is only one thing I'd really like to see: examples of play.
Lots of them, in neat sidebars in EVERY single page of the book.
Examples of play that shows examples of combat, particular situations, use of complex spells, virtually anything unclear that has shown up in the boards. Want to make a magical items? 3 or 4 examples in a sidebar in the page on creating magical items.
Hero System did a very good work with sidebars.
Alternatively, a whole page of examples and clarification could take place on Paizo's official website. I love the design days on the blogs, but I'd rather read a few examples of combat instead. I keep hearing people saying "really it works this way? I always played it differently".
Poison and disease, for example. I'd like to see a bunch of diseases described technically as if they were part of a story.
4) An end to iterative attacks, as someone stated above. They're so much more trouble than they're worth. (See the Gunslinger playtest for an excellent example of this.)
I'd like to say a word on iterative attacks,since several people now have mentioned them. Iterative attacks are not a bad thing, regardless of how much bookkeeping they lead to. Multiple attacks are something I really, really like about the system. What I don't like is the degenerating base attack bonus applied to them over several strokes - after all, 1st and 2nd edition din't make anyone take a penalty to extra attacks. It would work out far better if they all got the same bonus (So, for example, a 20th level fighter would get 4 at +20, while a 20th level rogue would get 3 at +15).
Oooh... gold plated yacht!
Which means 2ed. will be coming out sooner rather then later. ;D