Point buy systems p0wnzz U!!!111
Just sayin'
I don't get why anyone would think a minotaur with PC stats would be suitable for a lvl 4 party.. and to compensate he gets extra levels after, the other characters start to catch up a little. The way monster pcs were done in 3.5 might have been a bit weak, but as it is in pathfinder it is too strong to mix with 'normal' Pc races
I recommend this: In the Company of Minotaurs
/thread, imo
That's the best option for PF Minotaurs, without a doubt.
They're a very viable option... IF you allow them and IF they fit into your game.
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If you don't mind me asking, what, in regards to the actual racial traits, archetypes and paragon class did you find confining and what would you have preferred to see. Would more options for customization helped or are you just looking for a complete fluff/crunch package more in line with your campaign world?The need for rape/forced concubine. I think I remember something about cannibalism (eating sentients) The adherence to Mazes, while necessary for a "greek" feel, doesnt work to well for a wandering adventurer.
The race crunch wasnt bad; I would have left the maze stuff out personally, because thats more for BBEG at Site adventures, rather than of use to an adventurer.
The rest? The fluff was too Greek. Not of use for a PC unless your set on Site adventure (Im not) Half-breed was interesting, though.
Im not versed enough in Golarian to know how the backstory actually ties into the world history, seemed to belong in a separate line from everything else, rather than an extension.
Thank you for the feedback.
The back-story is psuedo-grecian mythology, intentionally so, and the race is presented as LE. It is assumed the PCs are most likely breaking away from their race. To fit the creature to the Bestiary, however, the maze inclusion is necessary, and, for as long as I've been playing D&D, the maze has been a part of the Minotaur writeup (this holds true for the Golarion minotaurs too).
That being said, this book's fluff was not meant to be Golarion specific. 3pp publishers can play with Paizo's rules, but generally speaking not with their world. Steve Russell, publisher of Rite and coauthor of the book, originally came up with the taurian backstory for his AE product line and I converted it to Pathfinder rules and redid the fluff just a bit.
Rite Publishings official PFRPG world is Questhaven.. For oriental adventures Rite has the Jade Oath campaign (originally AE but getting slowly converted) and I am working with Michael Tumey to develop Kaidan (Japan based horror setting). Much of Rite's earlier material was for use with with Monte Cook's AE but most of it is currently being developed for Pathfinder. Though also worthy of mention is the work being done on Lords of Gossamer and Shadow, diceless roleplaying.
If you can find a copy of FFG's Dawnforge book you might want to take a look at it. They had Minotaurs as a race along side traditional races and some others. They started relatively even with all the other races (close to those out of the 3.5 PHB IIRC) but, like all the other races, they got racial boosts as they progressed to make them stronger. At the very least it might provide a base line for making a Minotaur race that doesn't require level adjustments.
Here's my World Campaign PC minotaur race. They are a race of militant minotaurs who were magically crossbred with humans by an evil wizard long ago. They aren't as big, strong, or dumb as normal minotaurs.
Sirjif minotaurs are defined by their class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. All Sirjif minotaurs have the following racial traits.
+4 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence: Sirjif minotaurs are physically strong and tough, but their minotaur stock hinders their intelligence.
Medium: Sirjif minotaurs are Medium creatures, and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Normal Speed: Sirjif minotaurs have a base speed of 30 feet (or 6 squares).
Darkvision: Sirjif minotaurs can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Gore: Sirjif minotaurs may gore with their horns inflicting 1d6 points of damage + half Strength modifier.
Natural Cunning: Sirjif minotaurs possess innate cunning and logistics. Thus, they are immune to maze spells, never become lost, are able to track enemies, and are never caught flat-footed.
Powerful Charge: Sirjif minotaurs may charge an enemy for 2d8 points + Strength modifier.
Scent Location: Sirjif minotaurs add half their level to Survival skill checks made to follow or identify tracks by smell.
Skilled: Sirjif minotaurs receive a +2 racial bonus to Intimidate and Knowledge (nobility) skill checks.
Tough Skin: Sirjif minotaurs have tough hide which provides a +2 natural armor bonus.
Weapon Familiarity: Sirjif minotaurs are proficient with bastard swords, greatswords, battleaxes and greataxes.
Languages: Sirjif minotaurs begin play speaking Common and Giant. Sirjif minotaurs with high Intelligence scores can choose any of the following: Draconic, Dwarven, Gnoll, Goblin, and Orc.
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My take on the minotaur. Keep in mind this is assuming you abolish racial stat mods.
So let's look at the minotaur.
Ability scores don't matter of course. You're probably maxing Str and mining Int/Cha anyway.
Large size is the first ability we notice. Monstrous humanoid, darkvision 60ft, and Natural Cunning.
So Large size. Well, Enlarge Person is a first level spell. But this is always on. IIRC, having that was a +1 LA in 3.5. So I would say 3HD to be safe.
Monstrous humanoid and darkvision aren't anything special, works for 1st level.
Natural Cunning. Hmm, can't be flat-footed, never gets lost, immunity to one 8th level spell. Forget the spell, it rarely comes into play. Never getting lost is easy to handle by Survival. Can't be flat-footed? Sounds like Uncanny Dodge! Which most classes get at 2nd level. I imagine it doesn't stack, so 1st level it is!
Now to go find something harder.
Edit: Forgot Powerful Charge. Not a big deal, 1st level as well.
Here's a thought, there is a quick template in the back of the Bestiary that costs +1 CR point that increases STR by +2, CON by +2, decreases DEX by -2, increases Natural Armour by +2 and lastly increases the creature by one size category, allowing him to apply this "quickplate" to a character might solve your issues if he just wants the large size category and is not worried about the actual race, this coupled with half orc would work nicely methinks.
Did anyone suggest the minotaur bloodline from Unearthed Arcana, and maybe tweaking it a little? Because if no one has, I will..
First I want to thank everyone who mentioned In The Company of Minotaurs. I really tried to take the Minotaur back to its original mythology. The idea for PCs was that they were the tragic outcasts who rejected their normal evil society.
dave.gillam
The need for rape/forced concubine. I think I remember something about cannibalism (eating sentients) The adherence to Mazes, while necessary for a "greek" feel, doesnt work to well for a wandering adventurer.
The race crunch wasnt bad; I would have left the maze stuff out personally, because thats more for BBEG at Site adventures, rather than of use to an adventurer.
The rest? The fluff was too Greek. Not of use for a PC unless your set on Site adventure (Im not) Half-breed was interesting, though.
Im not versed enough in Golarian to know how the backstory actually ties into the world history, seemed to belong in a separate line from everything else, rather than an extension.
The Taurians do not Rape their concubines, they do capture them and enslave them but it specifically states in their culture that they must love their concubines and their concubines must love them before they risk having a child. Yes it is an evil and twisted relationship but no more so than the Drow. And Minotaurs in all the incarnations of DnD are EVIL!
I am also confused by your statement "adherence to mazes" and it not working well for a wandering adventurer, the Huntseeker minotaurs are specifically mentioned as minotaurs who wander the land as are minotaurs who reject their society, Elves live in tree villiages and this does not lend itself to adventuring either but this does not stop them from adventuring.
Leaving out mazes from minotaurs IMHO would be like leaving out being big from giants, or a parasitic nature from vampires, its a fundamental facet of who and what they are.
If you don't like greek-flavor that's fine I can understand that flavor is always a mater of tase, i chose to embrace its roots and attempted to make it modular rather than generic but to each his own. However I disagree its useless to an adventurer, it gives you your cultural outlook and how that will color the attitudes of your interactions with other races and spends a whole section on taurian adventurers.
Steve Russell
Rite Publishing
Co-Author In the Company of Minotaurs
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I think its a matter of what you want from a "monster" race. Are you looking to have them as
A) A common in-world race, the sort that could walk down the street of your local village without causing a riot, though they might get some stares (like elves and dwarves)
B) A monstrous race with a few oddballs (Drizzt/Drow)
C) Or something in between, a legitimate unified race, seperate from humanity both culturally and morally, but accepted enough that when one visits they are given some acceptance (hobgoblins in Kalamar).
It sounds to me like you (Dave) are looking for "A" when it comes to minotaurs.
In the Company of Minotaurs actually aims at "C." While they perform better in mazes, there is nothing that says they have to stay constantly in mazes and the book talks about commerce with other nations, especially in regards to slaves. As a nation they are LE, but it is assumed that there are good aligned minotaurs living in their vast, dark labyrinth.
Consider: "Paladin: There are few paladins among the taurian
people, but those taurians who follow the will of Heaven
regard these divinely led warriors quite highly. Much
honor is given to paladins, however much is expected of
them as well. Most taurians expect paladins to protect
them for little or no pay, making any sacrifice necessary
for the good of the race."
I'm sorry you found the book not to your taste, its hard to please everyone, but I want to thank you for having purchased and read it.
really all this because the PC wants to play an minotaur?
Anyway, there is some 3.5 monster manual (don't remember where) that there is a minotaur-like race as someone in our group played him, he was more like a satyr variant instead of a human like head he had a minotaur head, dont remember what it was, but it had rules for PCs to play one.
Really, tho honestly, unless the rest of the party is monsters, or you are one of the DMs that makes you make a new character when your old one died, start at level 1, there is no call for a character like this and the answer is just no.
In the campaign we were in where the PC did take a monster race, he had died several times and we were 6th level or so, so he had 5 monster HD and 1 level of barbarian or something. It didnt really matter because he died like THAT very session.
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I was looking for "C" and found the book closer to "B". Im not sure if that was due to space considerations or what, as there were some very interesting concepts presented, that could have used fleshing out.
The part I bolded is the problem. As long as you have "most all the minotaurs live just here", its still a site based monster, not a Player Race.
I don't know that I can agree with that. :)
First of, the labyrinth is their nation. Its not a small maze but a vast underground kingdom, with villages, cities and what-not nestled into a network of caverns. Writing about it made me want to actually write more about it but theres only so much time and other projects beckoned (Time, not space, is the normal deciding factor with writing PDFs.)
Secondly, most elves live in the forest, but that does not make elven PCs a site based monster, it just provides color to the race. In the same way, if your minotaur meets other adventurers in an inn (one of whom is a forest elf, one of whom is a mountain dwarf and one a farm-boy), the fact that the minotaur's father still lives in the Labyrinth kingdom really does not matter too much except as character color. Just as you expect the elf to say nice things when in the forest about how he longs for home, so too the minotaur will be reminded of home when he is in some dungeon cave. But that doesn't prevent him from visiting the forest from time to time in the same way the elf can still visit the dungeon from time to time.
In the end though, its just fluff and whenever I write fluff I figure most DMs are going to change it to suit their campaign and just hope that I am evocative enough to provoke ideas that make the DM want to use some of what I wrote.
My girlfriend played a Minotaur in our old Eberron campaign. Granted, when she joined everyone was 13th level, and Dorn (short for Paradornus, greek for "to give a good thrashing") was no less broken than the rest of us (moderately, I will admit).
The DM for that game worked up a progression based on "Savage Species". The final build ended up being 3 or 4 HD of minotaur, and the rest was Barbarian and Frenzied Berserker.
All of that being said, if you can find a copy of Savage Species, it will take some work, but you can use it for a decent framework for working up a fair progression for a minotaur, choosing at each level to take either a racial hit die or pc level.
Ok, so they buylly them into Stockholm Syndrome, then "Force cuddle" them.
Yes. Again they are EVIL.
And comparing them to Drow doesnt doesnt strengthen your argument.
If you don't like drow that's fine, but from a business stand point. drow are and were the most popular evil race created for the game, they have more products written about them than dragons.
If your going to break the mold and make them player characters, make them interesting
Our goal was not to break the mold, or goal was to make a playable minotaur, the assumption is that the Player will want to play a minotaur with all its greek roots, not a generic fantasy race with horns. If I was going to do something like that I would do a completely original fantasy race like Rite Publishing did with the Mandragoran but again that's not In the Company of Monsters line's goal.
There are 2 whole classes dedicated to keeping Elves in the woods while still playing; ranger and druid.
What lets a Minotaur Stay in his maze and still play with the other Characters?
I reject your characterization, the ranger and the druid are not keeping any PCs in the woods. When the adventure is in the Labyrinth of Madness by Monte Cook the elven ranger and the elven druid can go right along with the minotaur paragon, and both races and classes can go into Kingmaker just as easily.
but lets skip that:
What lets a character say in a specific environment ans still play with other characters....an adventure set in that environment that's what, A minotaur druid in his maze is just as interesting as a sea elf druid in his river or sea, but nothing stops them from going elsewhere (and a sea elf in pathfinder is amphibious with no limitation for adventuring on the land)
So your saying mazes, a stationary site, are "who they are", inseparable from the concept of minotaur? That would make them "monster only" or "Fixed site adventurer only", not "wandering adventurer class"; You end up with "drizt syndrome" where the only PCs are all the "oddball" and there are no "normal" ones left.
See again I reject the idea that oddball is bad, a PC playing a minotaur is an oddball to begin with. Yet beyond that
"As Taurians grow older, we most often become rather settled, comfortable where we are at and set in our ways. Not so our young bulls. They are filled with a need to prove themselves, claim their mates and sire children. Prowess in battle is a sure way to rise in the esteem of their peers and a comely lass is more likely to choose one whose courage and cunning have been tested.
For this reason, young taurians often venture to the edges of the Labyrinth and beyond, seeking adventure and battle. It is not unknown for a warrior, just come of age, to take leave of his father and journey to the sunlit lands. There they learn of the world and of the truth of our teachings. Some of our greatest leaders and warriors have made such journeys. Indeed I myself in my youth, for a time did wander amid strange lands and strange people, far from the chambers of my birth.
That is not to say that all opportunity for battle is found far from the Labyrinth. Indeed, as we claim new tunnels and chambers, it is necessary first for our warriors to explore, map and conquer. Every year, as the borders of our domain expands, we discover new adversaries and new challenges."
So culturally the Taurians encourage the young bulls to get out and see the world, to soil their wild oats and adventure, Its also a point to prove themselves in battle Proud Warrior Race guys that they are. Oh and there is also a hook where you are serving your community via exploration and mapping territories near their domains.
Also you can encounter a maze in any enviroment.... in the forest you find a hedgemaze, underground you find a maze of caverns, a labrinth carved in the glacier, hell you could even have one in a corn field or grape fence fields.
Anyway this is my last word on the issue. You have read it and formed you opinion, I disagree with it but I respect it. It did not do what you wanted, and I can understand your frustration with that; but as your said there will be those who do like it.
Thank you again
Steve Russell
Rite Publishing.
Minotaur stat adjustments are STR +8, CON +4, INT -4, CHA -2.
You could let him start as a plain Minotaur at level 4, and he'd get his first class level when reaching level 5.
If your player wants to start at an earlier level than that, I'd say you'd have to make some kind of "Half-Minotaur" race, with lower stat adjustments.
+1
A minotaur would follow the following progression :Level 4 : Minotaur 6D10
Level 5 : Minotaur 6D10/Class Level 1
Level 6 : Minotaur 6D10/Class Level 2
Level 6.5:Minotaur 6D10/Class Level 3
Level 7 : Minotaur 6D10/Class Level 4
Level 8 : Minotaur 6D10/Class Level 5
Level 9 : Minotaur 6D10/Class Level 6
Level 9.5:Minotaur 6D10/Class Level 7
Level 10: Minotaur 6D10/Class Level 8
Level 11: Minotaur 6D10/Class Level 9
...
Level 20: Minotaur 6D10/Class Level 18Note that the racial hit dice are not maxed at 1st level, only his first Class Level are maxed at the first class level (character level 5). So, his HP at level 4 are 33 + (6 * CON MOD). At 5th, he gains Max HD for class level + CON MOD.
Skill points at Level 4 are : 24 + (INT MOD * 6)
Skill points equal to 4 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for monstrous humanoids: Climb, Craft, Fly, Intimidate, Perception, Ride, Stealth, Survival, and Swim.
Sry for necro thread.
So u saying at lvl 4 the minotaur have 6 hit dice and +6/+1 BAB?