Stephen said he had a lot on his plate, and that his wife is sick. Have some patience and let him take care of her. He'll get us the update as soon as he's able to. Until then, just test it as is. Any information will still help them write a better class.
Stephen said he had a lot on his plate, and that his wife is sick. Have some patience and let him take care of her. He'll get us the update as soon as he's able to. Until then, just test it as is. Any information will still help them write a better class.
I just posted this on another thread, but there will be a second round of gunslinger playtesting with an updated version of the class. Look for it soon.
Stephen said he had a lot on his plate, and that his wife is sick. Have some patience and let him take care of her. He'll get us the update as soon as he's able to. Until then, just test it as is. Any information will still help them write a better class.I just posted this on another thread, but there will be a second round of gunslinger playtesting with an updated version of the class. Look for it soon.
Oh, please Please PLEASE tell me you guys have awwn this thread and have taken some of that into consideration or even made it part of the class.
That would just make me so friggin' happy...
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You happy and me sad ;-)
Why ? The suggestions and ideas in this version are interesting enough to be taken into account since they come from pretty much everyone who commented on the official playtest. Rejecting it in five words and a smile without even giving an opinion or a single argument on the class isn't helping anything at all, except at making other people's work and suggestions look bad from A to Z.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Why ? ... Rejecting it in five words and a smile
I've got a number of issues with the current Gunslinger and both the Alpha one you and A. worked up.
- I don't like that only Gunslingers are effective with guns. They should be able to do interesting things while using guns like in Equilibrium Movie.
- I don't like the Grit system, especially with low number of points that probability is against you refilling.
- I don't like the Guns with their Touch AC in first increment
- I don't like the 34 DPR at level 10 and 121 DPR at level 11 due to free action reload. Either make that lower level or make a feat everyone can take to grant free action reload.
- I don't like DeadEye, or put another way, I don't like Touch AC at all.
I'm sure there are more things I didn't like that I've post about and just didn't remember right now.
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I've got a number of issues with the current Gunslinger and both the Alpha one you and A. worked up.
* I don't like that only Gunslingers are effective with guns. They should be able to do interesting things while using guns like in Equilibrium Movie.
* I don't like the Grit system, especially with low number of points that probability is against you refilling.
* I don't like the Guns with their Touch AC in first increment
* I don't like the 34 DPR at level 10 and 121 DPR at level 11 due to free action reload. Either make that lower level or make a feat everyone can take to grant free action reload.
* I don't like DeadEye, or put another way, I don't like Touch AC at all.I'm sure there are more things I didn't like that I've post about and just didn't remember right now.
What strikes me the most is probably that you simply don't like the gunslinger in itself, and probably didn't read the 1.4. This isn't a bad thing, but it seems like a majority of people are interested in the gunslinger being good with guns, since it's a bit like an alchemist being good with alchemy...
At first, we used Ashiel's rules for firearms when adapting his Gunslinger, to help improve the class for people having the same opinion than you, but it would have been useless to perseverate when it was clear that the rules where already clearly established this way : first range increment = Touch AC. Sadly, it was not gonna change, even with whining or pwetty pwease with sugar on the top... so, the 1.4 objective was to propose a heavy variant from the official alpha, all the while using the official firearm rules and still don't make the class a too powerful or too weak one.The number of grit points isn't so low, especially since you can replenish it. You speak of equilibrium, and I suggest you to look at the John Preston Gun-kata gunslinger build I put on the 1.4 topic. I'm amazed myself to finally have been able to get one that could work and do cool things without sucking. The build is good with guns but good in melee too, can shoot everywhere... not a lot more than another class using a gun, but more versatile. The reloading issue was also adressed with low-level innovations, deeds and feats to reload faster, have more shots, use all attacks in one bullet, etc.
So saying that the designers shouldn't look at what was being said is a bit hard to understand when almost all issues you're talking about have at least one example of solution in the pdf - except for the Touch AC, which is already RAW. It would have been a loss of time to build something for rules like Ashiel's, since the 1.4 was supposed to help building the final gunslinger, and not be a 3rd Party variant.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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What strikes me the most is probably that you simply don't like the gunslinger in itself, and probably didn't read the 1.4.
Yes and No
I don't like the Gunslinger making guns from something entirely unusable to something excellent.
I don't like the massive power boost your 1.4 and A's version give the guns. It is almost like you didn't look at the DPR values of the post 11th level Alpha from Paizo (80 percent of Longbow DPR) and giving them better crit modifiers will almost certainly exceed anything Longbow users can accomplish.
I see a lot of people wanting exactly that. They want DPR for a Gunslinger to be 150+. They want it to out DPR any other class ever printed.
And if it wasn't crystal clear, yes I read every version of both you and A's Gunslinger.
I dont see anything wrong with the gunslinger out damaging the archer.
IMO archers were always a broken part of the game anyway.
The Gun should have every available option to increase its crit threat as everything else.
However, the one thing that made the gun the "mighty weapon" it has become in real life, is it's ease of use and training.
Without it becoming an 'everyman' weapon because it's so easy to kill someone with, even the modern real life guns would be put to shame by ninja and norsemen.
So in an alternate universe, where everything gets better with experience, do you want your 15 th level fighter to get killed by a commoner with a gun?
No.
So therefor, it HAS to work the other way (ie guns get better with more experience too)
So guns HAVE to be better in the hands of a gunslinger than everyone else. OTHERwise a gunslinger is just going to be a fighter with a gun.
The Gunslinger concept is one of someone taking something that was NOT a viable everyman weapon (like early guns) and turning it into something special.
It's very similar to an alchemist. Who takes something that basically does not work for anyone else (or at least is subpar to other things that are available) and makes them kickin.
I don't see why a gunslinger can't be 150+ DPR eventually, don't high level fighters do damage like that?
Things about guns and gunslingers I do and don't like.
Ranged Touch attack is how it should be IMHO, and I think that armor piercing should be a part of it, but it DOESN'T have to be an all or nothing! Try to find some middle ground -- and throw in a Strength Bonus and Strength Requirement like you do with bows (does it matter whether your bow is strung more tightly or whether there is more powder packed in your weapon).
Misfire is a BIG mistake! Only players who would grab their Wand of Wonder and start casting in the middle of a big battle would pack a pistol that could explode after two shots. If you really, really, really need misfire, exclude it at least for masterwork weapons. Don't go for a magical solution to this, as that would be unavailable in Alkenstar (Golarion campaign setting where Guns originate)
Gunslinger abilities should just be simmered down into firearm combat feats -- if any character wanted to focus on firearms they could take those feats. Having a new class JUST for firearms is a waste.
If you really feel obliged to have a Gunslinger specialist, make it an alternate Archetype for different classes: Fighter, Alchemist, Rogue, Ranger, Paladin, even Wizards or Sorceresses. I think that would be more creative, diverse, and fun than having just be one class.
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I don't like the massive power boost your 1.4 and A's version give the guns. It is almost like you didn't look at the DPR values of the post 11th level Alpha from Paizo (80 percent of Longbow DPR) and giving them better crit modifiers will almost certainly exceed anything Longbow users can accomplish.
I see a lot of people wanting exactly that. They want DPR for a Gunslinger to be 150+. They want it to out DPR any other class ever printed.
Well, the crossbowman variant does pretty much that (though crossbows are a bad example of good designing), same for the monk and unarmed fight. Half the issues you've got with the class will stay in the final version = they will again be good mith guns, they will have grit, they will have high crit, they will hit touch AC.
Giving a huge power boost to make the class the most powerful possible is not the intent at all, or else we would have say "hey, it would be cool to give 3d8+250 damage at level 0, because you know, GUNS !". And I'm on the same opinion about 1.4 that it is right now too powerful, still it doesn't take back the global goodness of the suggestions. Personnaly, I want guns to hit more easily when at close range, because it's how guns are by RAW, but to do less average damage than an archer. After all, archers got a lot of shots at high range + strength bonus to damage, when guns hit easier when closer but don't deal a lot of base damage and can even jam on a low hit to become 20x2 weapons. Between something like +13(x2)/+13/+10 (1d8+6 20x3) and Touch AC +15/+10 (1d12+5 20x4) at level 6, considering that the Archer can also use Deadly Aim, you really think the x4 makes it SO much powerful ?I want the class to be balanced whatever the build you want when imagining your character, from musketeer to sniper passing by gun-kata or hunter. I don't care so much about huge DPR actually, it needs to do enough damage to be considered good like a pistol fighter when using all it's class abilities, and seem cool enough to make me have a good time when playing with it. It needs to not be a pain in the ass with how to reload, and not push you to the saaaame build again and again just to be able to not lose one round after each shot like in the first alpha gunslinger.
So if you have suggestions on what to drop, what to change, etc. in the actual take on the gunslinger, feel free to point them in the topic, but right now I think this simply isn't a class that you will like, whatever they do of it since it is based around things you dislike.
I dont see anything wrong with the gunslinger out damaging the archer.
Right now, I see the gun as more potential damage/shot, but less damage/round. Maybe the Gunslinger could out-damage an archer at close range, but they need to have their own niche each.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I dont see anything wrong with the gunslinger out damaging the archer.
It's bad game design to keep adding new classes that out damage the old classes and it's bad game design to create a class that outdamages the Fighter class even if it is an Alternate Fighter class.
Well, the crossbowman variant does pretty much that
same for the monk and unarmed fight.you really think the x4 makes it SO much powerful?
Crossbowmen can't out damage a well built Fighter Archer now, neither can a Ranger.
No Monk can outdamage a well built Fighter, even with Ki addl attack.
I know the math, as I've had this debate in other threads and provided the 15th level builds to demonstrate the DPR of a Fighter exceeds both.
As for whether or not I think increasing the Gun threat/multiplier is a problem. I don't think, I know the math. Either increase makes it exceed all that can be done with a Bow or Crossbow currently. Granted they both consider the existence of the 11th level Free action reload. But builds are weight by the best possible, not some nebulus of "what might be the average" or some other thought.
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Maybe it's simply the Archer Fighter that's broken... but well, I hope Paizo will make the gunslinger a good fighter, but still under the archer in terms of DPR - including in concern of the 1d8/1d12 20x4 damage. I see the gunslinger as more of a utility/control shooter than a high damager, or it should be in a blaster way, with cone effects or unique vital shots.
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I didn't say that archers got a huge issue. But at low-to mid level, an archer is often the guy that stays in back and never gets caught. Yes, you can still make him cry with a little Sunder or a simple Wind Wall, though in the game I'm playing, I got a fellow level 8 fighter who makes 2d6+21 on Power Attack with his greatsword, and 1d8+16 with one arrow and Deadly Aim when fighting from far away.
I'm TWF with a spiked bashing light shield and a longsword, and I can do 4 attacks each round at +15/10/+15/+10 for 1d8+8 sword/1d8+10 shield. It's two more attacks on melee, better to-hit and a 29 AC at level 8, but the problem isn't the DPR, it's more the fact that the archer(s, including a ranger) is always behind and never gets mauled to death by the big bosses, because we are four on melee. Maybe the archer is harder to play in little groups or in skirmishes (and it happened a lot to them, including a surprise round with an hidden 2HF fighter variant who did a critical + power attack + 2x strength bonus with an adamantium Earthbreaker. Useless to say the fighter didn't understand what happened when he broke in little pieces), but in groups a bit larger and in semi-opened battlefields, they get a huge advantage by being the one that doesn't have to take a lot of risks and just stay behind, making count of how much they kill. But after all I don't care, as long as I don't feel useless and that my friends have fun. :)