Horselord |
Look in the bestiary at the description for a Roc. It says it commonly carries an elephant. There is no weight listed for an adult elephant, so real-world examples will have to suffice:
Forest elephant: 2,700 - 6,000 lbs
African elephant: 5,000 - 14,000+ lbs
Asian elephant: 5,000 - 11,000 lbs
The Roc has a Strength of 28 and is gargantuan, which gives it a maximum light load of 3,200 lbs. This means a Roc could only carry the smallest of adult elephants, young and forest elephants - and rocs will avoid hunting in forests due to their size. To carry an average elephant, the roc should have a light load in the order of 6,500 lbs, which is at least +5 Strength.
As an aside, let's see how a roc compares to an eagle ...
Applying the young template until a roc is small gives:
Str 12, Dex 31, Con 1, Natural Armor 6.
Compare this to an eagle:
Str 10, Dex 15, Con 12, Natural Armor 1.
This seems to indicate that a roc's Dexterity is incredibly high and its Constitution is abysmally low.
Advancing an eagle up to gargantuan size and 16 HD gives these stats:
Str 38, Dex 13*, Con 26, Natural Armor 10. (* +1 for every 4 HD)
This seems to give a better comparison. The Dexterity is close enough. There is a shift towards making a roc harder to hit in preference to hit points as natural armor is higher but Constitution is very low (9 points lower seems too much). The standout is the strength - a full 10 points lower for the roc! As an eagle only started at 10, this would mean reversing the tables would leave rocs with 0 Strength. Something definitely isn't adding up here.
Johnnycat93 |
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I don't really have a dog in this, just stopping by to drop off some info to say I don't know why you're bothering to use light loads as a metric. From the little research I've done it appears that medium/heavy loads don't limit flight so a Roc does appear to be able to carry an elephant.
Also, I don't think using templates and such as a comparison is all that fair. In case you weren't aware there are statistics for baby rocs (12/19/9/2/13/11 NA +5)
Pizza Lord |
From what I can see, apparently only flying mounts are unable to fly when wearing medium or heavy armor or with a medium or heavy load.
So it depends on if the roc is considered a mount or not.
...
Flying mounts can’t fly in medium or heavy barding.
...
A barded animal cannot be used to carry any load other than a rider and normal saddlebags.
And medium and heavy loads function as wearing medium or heavy armor.
A medium or heavy load counts as medium or heavy armor for the purpose of abilities or skills that are restricted by armor
So, until (or unless) it's been cleared up elsewhere, an unbarded, unmounted roc should fly with encumbrance penalties to max dex, speed, and skill with armor check penalties.
Maezer |
You could just as easily say the Eagle is too strong. Its stronger than the average adult human.
At some point just recognize that the rules are rules for game play sake. Not a realistic world simulator. If some oddity comes up just deal with it.
Matthew Downie |
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So it depends on if the roc is considered a mount or not.
Druid: "What a mighty beast! See how it carries an elephant! I shall use my powers to make it mine! Roc, will you be my mount?"
Roc: "Yes."The Roc immediately plummets out of the sky, because a mount cannot fly with a medium load.
You could just as easily say the Eagle is too strong. Its stronger than the average adult human.
A standard eagle has a strength of 10 and is small sized so it has only 3/4 of the carrying capacity of a human with strength 10.
Now, a tyrannosaurus being able to swallow a triceratops whole, that's what I call unrealistic...
Jeraa |
From what I can see, apparently only flying mounts are unable to fly when wearing medium or heavy armor or with a medium or heavy load.
So it depends on if the roc is considered a mount or not.
Barding wrote:...
Flying mounts can’t fly in medium or heavy barding.
...
A barded animal cannot be used to carry any load other than a rider and normal saddlebags.And medium and heavy loads function as wearing medium or heavy armor.
Carrying Capacity > Encumbrance by Weight wrote:A medium or heavy load counts as medium or heavy armor for the purpose of abilities or skills that are restricted by armorSo, until (or unless) it's been cleared up elsewhere, an unbarded, unmounted roc should fly with encumbrance penalties to max dex, speed, and skill with armor check penalties.
The rules that limited everyone to flying with a light load at maximum were removed in Pathfinder, along with the descriptions of all other movement modes.
Pathfinder removed the limitation on flying, as evidenced by their giving solar angels full plate armor. The rule still applying to mounts is most likely just an oversight and likely was meant to be removed as well.
Pizza Lord |
Druid: "What a mighty beast! See how it carries an elephant! I shall use my powers to make it mine! Roc, will you be my mount?"
Roc: "Yes."
The Roc immediately plummets out of the sky, because a mount cannot fly with a medium load.
I suppose, if your druid weighs 3,200 pounds or you're overloading the roc with an elephant!
Regardless, your example might be misleading to other readers. Rocs willing to serve druids (clearly your implication) are limited to large size and this is explicitly stated. Big enough to serve as a mount, but clearly in no way, shape, or form, implied to be carrying off elephants.Matthew Downie |
I'm not talking about animal companions.
If you cast Dominate Animal on a standard Bestiary Roc (or achieve something similar with Wild Empathy, Awaken, etc) and order it to be your mount, does it instantly lose its ability to carry off an elephant? Is 'mount' a state of mind, or do you become a mount when something sits on your back?
Pizza Lord |
The rules that limited everyone to flying with a light load at maximum were removed in Pathfinder, along with the descriptions of all other movement modes.
Pathfinder removed the limitation on flying, as evidenced by their giving solar angels full plate armor. The rule still applying to mounts is most likely just an oversight and likely was meant to be removed as well.
That's entirely possible that that was their intent. I can't say for certain (nor is it an issue that impacts me). I can say for certain they've had over a decade to fix or even address it. I only play devil's advocate to help others who might view this thread and have questions or concerns. I prefer completeness and a solid viewpoint from all sides.
It's not that I don't think you're probably right, but your example of a solar angel getting full plate in Pathfinder is not a good example. First off, no one is going to consider a solar angel to fall into the category of a mount nor is its full plate armor considered barding.
I could just as easily point out the Zelekhut Inevitable having a fly speed while wearing plate 'barding' (possibly because it was originally intended to not be used as a mount, which would fall under the 'mounts in medium or heavy barding' category) and Pathfinder removing any mention of barding (or armor at all) from the creature when they realized there was mistake.
This is not specifically a post about barding and mounts so much as whether a roc could carry an elephant above a light load and mentioning barding, flying mounts, and other such things are mostly to help interpret why the OP remembered or was associating light loads with flight (or the inability to do so).
Jeraa |
It's not that I don't think you're probably right, but your example of a solar angel getting full plate in Pathfinder is not a good example. First off, no one is going to consider a solar angel to fall into the category of a mount nor is its full plate armor considered barding.
No, but it is an example of a deliberate change to the flying rules. So there is evidence the rules have changed from 3.5 D&D and that flying with a medium/heavy load is now possible. IT is an example that fits the OP just fine. It isn't my fault others (Edit: you, as it turns out )derailed the thread into a related but ultimately off-topic discussion.
Whether or not that applies while being a mount is an entirely different discussion. And one that has no bearing at all on the OP, which never mentioned mounts at all.