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...job stuff...My current job I took a pay cut from what the other companies were offering because it would be more of a challenge, and after nearly 6 years of coasting at Toys R Us I craved something more challenging.
Of course I've since doubled my pay and promoted further than any one else would consider. So it all evens out with time.
That's true if you come in at a low pay grade. But when your "low" is their "maximum we're willing to pay", I don't think my raises would be all that much, honestly.
Yeah, when I went to my first tech company at a low pay rate I enjoyed 10-15% raises every year. At Global Megacorporation I just recently did the calculation and my raw pay today is within 2% of my original salary adjusted for inflation.
EDIT: Nudity, inflation... there's a joke in there somewhere...
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10-15% raises... Tee hee hee...
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10-15% raises... Tee hee hee...
Limey gets cookies.
I was beyond the very top they wanted to pay at my last job. My raises for the final three or four years, when they gave them at all, were 1-2% before inflation was considered. So I was basically "not losing as much money to inflation as people not getting raises".
My boss really didn't understand when I listed the low pay relative to my position and responsibilities as one of my dozen or so reasons for leaving.
Are those percentage points or centimeters?
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My boss really didn't understand when I listed the low pay relative to my position and responsibilities as one of my dozen or so reasons for leaving.I'm confused, what kind of career do you have where you need to justify leaving your place of employment to the business you're quitting?
The tech industry is very close-knit: Burn bridges at one place, end up regretting it for the rest of your life. Hi learned that the hard way: He wrote a very public, very scathing letter on leaving his last job. He's never worked for a tech company since. Word gets around.
So if I leave Global Megacorporation, I have to do it in a polite way in case I ever find myself in search of employment again. If I open up with both barrels on them and tell them everything that they did wrong in a very public manner, I've basically killed my career in that industry.
EDIT: Honestly, Global Megacorporation is in a big enough industry that I might get away with it, but why take the risk? It's not hard to tell your former boss: "You didn't know what I was doing and your raises didn't keep up with inflation, so I'm moving to a position where management has a better understanding of what I do and I'm receiving significantly better compensation."
A polite, non-public truth.
XKCD understands my objection to rounding.That's the rounding equivalent of running something through google translate 37 times.Yes, but... it's what I was complaining about in Impus Major's physics textbook, and it's something that's utterly unforgivable in the sciences.
His book's approach:
(1) Take the sine of an angle. Round off.
(2) Multiply by the force. Round off.
(3) Plug the force into a formula. Round off.
(4) Perform all the additions and subtractions.
(5) Take the square root. Round off.By the time it's done, the "solution" in the back of the book is off from the correct answer by 10-20%. Every time.
Teaching kids to do scientific calculations incorrectly is awful.
Fermi and his dropped pieces of paper disagree. But he was a f'ing genius, so there is that.
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Fermi and his dropped pieces of paper disagree. But he was a f'ing genius, so there is that.XKCD understands my objection to rounding.That's the rounding equivalent of running something through google translate 37 times.Yes, but... it's what I was complaining about in Impus Major's physics textbook, and it's something that's utterly unforgivable in the sciences.
His book's approach:
(1) Take the sine of an angle. Round off.
(2) Multiply by the force. Round off.
(3) Plug the force into a formula. Round off.
(4) Perform all the additions and subtractions.
(5) Take the square root. Round off.By the time it's done, the "solution" in the back of the book is off from the correct answer by 10-20%. Every time.
Teaching kids to do scientific calculations incorrectly is awful.
Physics has two quantities: A "calculation" where you want to be correct within the error and the significant digits, and an "estimate" where anything within an order of magnitude is great.
I loved my upper-division astrophysics class for that: The professor only looked at your order of magnitude and if it was somewhat close, you got credit. Whether the leading number was a 3 or a 7 was completely irrelevant, since it was an "estimate".
But on rare occasions physicists care about accuracy, and I'd argue that the "back of the book answer" to a problem should be one of those occasions.
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And honestly, Shiro inadvertently made a really good point: "$100k is a fortune in Kentucky. You could have your house paid off in 2 years and be moving towards retirement."
In the Bay Area, I'm worth about $170k. But now that most tech work has gone remote, I may well be nowhere worth that much any more. Can't tell without checking around, but it may well be that my work's gone from "boring and underpaid" to "boring and perfectly well paid", which is a far more acceptable circumstance...
...even if prices around here don't seem to be miraculously dropping as a result of all this...
And honestly, Shiro inadvertently made a really good point: "$100k is a fortune in Kentucky. You could have your house paid off in 2 years and be moving towards retirement."
In the Bay Area, I'm worth about $170k. But now that most tech work has gone remote, I may well be nowhere worth that much any more. Can't tell without checking around, but it may well be that my work's gone from "boring and underpaid" to "boring and perfectly well paid", which is a far more acceptable circumstance...
...even if prices around here don't seem to be miraculously dropping as a result of all this...
Half a dollar for a one liter box of drinkable milk here. More for more expensive ones (I think it can reach a dollar for a liter, which might or might not be lactose-free, more for milk substitutes, or weird things like goat milk and such).
Half a dollar for a one liter box of drinkable milk here. More for more expensive ones (I think it can reach a dollar for a liter, which might or might not be lactose-free, more for milk substitutes, or weird things like goat milk and such).And honestly, Shiro inadvertently made a really good point: "$100k is a fortune in Kentucky. You could have your house paid off in 2 years and be moving towards retirement."
In the Bay Area, I'm worth about $170k. But now that most tech work has gone remote, I may well be nowhere worth that much any more. Can't tell without checking around, but it may well be that my work's gone from "boring and underpaid" to "boring and perfectly well paid", which is a far more acceptable circumstance...
...even if prices around here don't seem to be miraculously dropping as a result of all this...
I believe that if I went to Safeway and bought their generic "remotely related to milk" cheapest available milk I could get it for around $1.25/liter. But decent milk starts at around $1.80/liter, and good milk (the kind where your kids don't ask, "What's wrong with the milk? It tastes funny!") is $2/liter or more.
I believe that if I went to Safeway and bought their generic "remotely related to milk" cheapest available milk I could get it for around $1.25/liter. But decent milk starts at around $1.80/liter,Half a dollar for a one liter box of drinkable milk here. More for more expensive ones (I think it can reach a dollar for a liter, which might or might not be lactose-free, more for milk substitutes, or weird things like goat milk and such).And honestly, Shiro inadvertently made a really good point: "$100k is a fortune in Kentucky. You could have your house paid off in 2 years and be moving towards retirement."
In the Bay Area, I'm worth about $170k. But now that most tech work has gone remote, I may well be nowhere worth that much any more. Can't tell without checking around, but it may well be that my work's gone from "boring and underpaid" to "boring and perfectly well paid", which is a far more acceptable circumstance...
...even if prices around here don't seem to be miraculously dropping as a result of all this...
Poland might have a shorter supply chain, with small time farmers selling their milk to dairy companies who deliver them to shops. I am not sure about current milk purchase price but for a long time it was close to 1 złoty or between a half and a third the price of liter of milk in shop.
Of course we are as a whole smaller than Texas so it happens on shorter distances.
and good milk (the kind where your kids don't ask, "What's wrong with the milk? It tastes funny!") is $2/liter or more.
Pasteurized or raw?
Raw tastes awful. Pasteurized is passable.
I like a lot of milk products but milk itself is not terribly high of my list.
And honestly, Shiro inadvertently made a really good point: "$100k is a fortune in Kentucky. You could have your house paid off in 2 years and be moving towards retirement."
In the Bay Area, I'm worth about $170k. But now that most tech work has gone remote, I may well be nowhere worth that much any more. Can't tell without checking around, but it may well be that my work's gone from "boring and underpaid" to "boring and perfectly well paid", which is a far more acceptable circumstance...
...even if prices around here don't seem to be miraculously dropping as a result of all this...
Yeah, the second or third biggest culture shock of moving from the Midwest to Seattle was realizing how much more expensive milk was.
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Yeah, the second or third biggest culture shock of moving from the Midwest to Seattle was realizing how much more expensive milk was.And honestly, Shiro inadvertently made a really good point: "$100k is a fortune in Kentucky. You could have your house paid off in 2 years and be moving towards retirement."
In the Bay Area, I'm worth about $170k. But now that most tech work has gone remote, I may well be nowhere worth that much any more. Can't tell without checking around, but it may well be that my work's gone from "boring and underpaid" to "boring and perfectly well paid", which is a far more acceptable circumstance...
...even if prices around here don't seem to be miraculously dropping as a result of all this...
It's the dearth of milkmaids around there...
Freehold will not be pleased when he learns that.
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I have just spent two hours discussing boots with a friend...
Two middle-aged men speaking of shoes. For two hours.
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It involves me getting new boots.
<.<
>.>
For free.
But still. Two hours talking about shoes.
My boss really didn't understand when I listed the low pay relative to my position and responsibilities as one of my dozen or so reasons for leaving.I'm confused, what kind of career do you have where you need to justify leaving your place of employment to the business you're quitting?
I got phone calls on my personal cell from both my direct manager and the CIO asking me why I was leaving. It wasn't just one thing like "you're not paying me enough". That was a component, certainly, but there was a lot more going on at the time.
Exit interviews are supposed to be handled by HR, but our HR also wasn't particularly competent, so there's that.
Also the CIO left about 2 months after I did.
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It's wonderful when things just work out and give you a sense that there really is karma in the universe; it just doesn't work large-scale:
(1) GothBard's always been extremely pleasant with the clerks at Trader Joe's. Over the weekend she bought some wine, then tripped on the stairs on the way into the house and shattered a bottle. As she was there yesterday to get a replacement bottle she mentioned it to the clerk. He immediately summoned a manager who approved comping her the replacement wine.
Solely because she was decent to them and they were decent right back. Go figure.
(2) Although GothBard vastly prefers my lamb curry, I like to make a lentil curry with tofu because it's vastly cheaper and easier, and both Impus Major and I still find it quite tasty. I just happened to make it 100% vegan this time...
...and Impus Minor has a female friend over who's vegan.
She gratefully declined the meal, but it clearly made her feel more welcome in the house.
Little things make the world better. You just kind of have to shuffle the big ones under the carpet every so often...
It's wonderful when things just work out and give you a sense that there really is karma in the universe; it just doesn't work large-scale:
(1) GothBard's always been extremely pleasant with the clerks at Trader Joe's. Over the weekend she bought some wine, then tripped on the stairs on the way into the house and shattered a bottle. As she was there yesterday to get a replacement bottle she mentioned it to the clerk. He immediately summoned a manager who approved comping her the replacement wine.
Solely because she was decent to them and they were decent right back. Go figure.
(2) Although GothBard vastly prefers my lamb curry, I like to make a lentil curry with tofu because it's vastly cheaper and easier, and both Impus Major and I still find it quite tasty. I just happened to make it 100% vegan this time...
...and Impus Minor has a female friend over who's vegan.
She gratefully declined the meal, but it clearly made her feel more welcome in the house.Little things make the world better. You just kind of have to shuffle the big ones under the carpet every so often...
Ooh, can you email me the vegetarian curry recipe? WW is always asking me to cook more plant-based food.
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"It's like every other grocery store. They sell bagels. They sell pizza rolls. Sleeves of Skoal. And AR-15s. Just a normal grocery store."
That is how Walmart works!
Not since 2015."It's like every other grocery store. They sell bagels. They sell pizza rolls. Sleeves of Skoal. And AR-15s. Just a normal grocery store."That is how Walmart works!
If you ask enough people at a Walmart I bet you can find someone willing to hook you up with an AR-15 no problem.
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OMG OMG OMG Shackleton's ship Endurance was found on Saturday, and the video showing the preservation of the wreck is astounding. Take a look!
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The public school system is much the same. Cyz saw a position available for school psych but the principal there was the assistant principal at another district who did not have a good impression of her when she left there.
It can almost be worse - I didn't realize how interconnected the districts statewide were until I interviewed here. I hadn't told any of my coworkers, but the day after the interview, one of my fellow teachers asked about it...because she'd taught for a couple years in another small town with one of the people I was interviewing with, and they'd called her to ask about me. And one district was almost completely on the hypoteneuse end of the state from the other. It was an odd feeling.
True. But that is different than Walmart selling you one.If you ask enough people at a Walmart I bet you can find someone willing to hook you up with an AR-15 no problem.Not since 2015."It's like every other grocery store. They sell bagels. They sell pizza rolls. Sleeves of Skoal. And AR-15s. Just a normal grocery store."That is how Walmart works!
That's not what I said.
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The tech industry is very close-knit: Burn bridges at one place, end up regretting it for the rest of your life. Hi learned that the hard way: He wrote a very public, very scathing letter on leaving his last job. He's never worked for a tech company since. Word gets around.I'm confused, what kind of career do you have where you need to justify leaving your place of employment to the business you're quitting?
Yeah, that's exactly my point... and a perfect example of what not to do and why I believe you should always avoid discussing those details with the business you're leaving, a scathing letter sounds exactly like the kind of justification/excuse/reasoning/explanation that I was talking about so maybe I just made my point poorly again.
Obviously like anything, it's just my own opinion but when discussing with a current and soon-to-be-former employer I would think one would be are far better off just giving whatever kind of notice timeframe is most appropriate for that position and leaving quietly. I'm having a hard time thinking of a profession (other than perhaps security/police/military service where one needs to be fully debriefed, NDA'd to hell, and perform exit interviews) it would be beneficial to discuss at length the detailed reasons for leaving. Isn't it better to simply state you're seeking opportunities elsewhere and to leave it at that?
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Isn't it better to simply state you're seeking opportunities elsewhere and to leave it at that?
Their point is that that usually isn't enough. Current employers as well as coworkers will hound you for more details and prospective future ones will want to know why you're changing jobs and if that's going to be a regular issue for them going forward.
The culture in a lot of places here is that if you're willing to leave one job without being fired or forced into leaving, you'll be willing to leave another, which makes you a "less-reliable" prospective employee who can't be counted on to stick your butt in one place until the system decides you're not worth paying anymore. So in attempt to mitigate that everyone wants to know precisely why you decided to break from the day-to-day status quo of "this is your job, stick with it" and look elsewhere to change your situation.
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Yikes, what a freaking quagmire... I don't have any experience at all in that kind of socially demanding work environment I guess, and I'm not sure I really ever would want to, certainly making friends and allies at work is one thing but I don't think I could ever truly be comfortable with employers who want to have their nose that far into my own personal business and driving motives/priorities.
Is this maybe tangentially related to the whole "we're a family" sort of mentality/culture that I've heard some businesses and industries push?
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Yikes, what a freaking quagmire... I don't have any experience at all in that kind of socially demanding work environment I guess, and I'm not sure I really ever would want to, certainly making friends and allies at work is one thing but I don't think I could ever truly be comfortable with employers who want to have their nose that far into my own personal business and driving motives/priorities.
Is this maybe tangentially related to the whole "we're a family" sort of mentality/culture that I've heard some businesses and industries push?
I think you may be misconstruing these exit "interviews". It's not so much, "How dare you leave?" as it is, "What did we do wrong, is there anything we can do to mitigate it, and is there a way we can convince you to stay?"
Training up tech workers is expensive. Losing them is costly. I'm not justifying my departure, I'm explaining my reasons for departing so they can try to do better in the future.
Case in point: My VP learned I was a flight risk. She immediately approved the management structure most likely to keep me around, with instructions to those managers to give me the lead on choosing my projects. She wanted to know why I was likely to leave so she could figure out a way to convince me to stay, and to improve her processes so she wouldn't be as likely to lose employees in the future.
Yes, your cynicism is well-placed: Most companies do this as lip service and don't actually try to improve their processes or working conditions. But Global Megacorporation was making huge strides in improving employee morale even before the pandemic by listening to the employees who were leaving: Their incredibly limited vacation policy became infinite vacation. They started allowing more work from home even before the pandemic. They encouraged managers to allow more flexible work schedules and eliminate overtime (also a cost savings for them).
So believe it or not, some companies care about why you're leaving so that they can try to do better and lose the churn. Hiring and training new employees is expensive, even at places like McDonald's or Wal*Mart.
EDIT: In the tech industry, many companies (Global Megacorporation included) use it as the standard for getting a decent raise.
"Why are you leaving?"
"You don't pay me enough."
"Do you have any proof of that?"
"Yes. This other company just offered me a 15% raise to leave."
"OK. We'll give you a 15% raise to stay."
EDIT 2: And for the record, I know of at least three employees who left Global Megacorporation, were asked, "Why are you leaving?", and responded with, "I'd rather not discuss it," and it wasn't an issue. So it's not like you have to do the interview; they'd just like you to do the interview.
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Ooh, can you email me the vegetarian curry recipe? WW is always asking me to cook more plant-based food.
Sorry -- Impus Major has his first physics midterm today so last night was hectic.
I'll try to write up some kind of recipe tonight that's better than, "Add these spices until it tastes right and cook until done."
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GothBard's take on it was similar: "It's really a company's only chance to get honest, open feedback about what's wrong: Learn about bad managers, bad management techniques, HR issues that need to be addressed, processes that are broken, and anything else that's driving employees to quit. Most companies are very invested in exit interviews as a way to improve the conditions for the rest of their employees, so I'd be leery of working for any company that didn't do exit interviews."
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Probably says something that I've never had an exit interview. Granted, I've also never left a job to simply get a better job; I've always even been fired/let go, or had to quit because I was moving. So might not say anything at all.
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New guy learned a very important lesson about NOT using my tools. And fear.
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Anyone here a lore buff on Greyhawk and/or Dragonlance? Could use some advice/suggestions.
I know a bit about Dragonlance but it's been fifteen years.
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A proactive doctor who reaches out to you to provide lifestyle advice based on your medical tests may be intrusive, but at least you know they mean well.
A proactive doctor who reaches out to you before even reading your medical history to provide lifestyle advice based on your medical tests comes across as an uncaring idiot.
My cholesterol's been creeping back up again, so at my annual physical in December the doctor recommended I increase my statins to daily and re-test in 3 months to see how effective it was. It wasn't bad -- my cholesterol numbers dropped by 10-15%, but not *quite* into the normal range, so still a little bit high.
I expected a call to discuss whether or not we should increase my dosage.
Instead I got a call from one of the nurse practitioners: "While your numbers aren't high enough for us to put you on statins yet, I'd like to discuss some possible lifestyle changes with you..."
"Can I stop you right there and point out that I've been on statins for over 20 years now?"
"Oh. Well, about those lifestyle changes..."
"Here's the list I know I should be following from 20 years of battling high cholesterol. Were you going to expand on that this?"
"Er, no."
I'm a strong advocate of medical professionals proactively reaching out, because health maintenance is much better for everyone involved. But can you at least read my chart before calling me?!?!?
I was beyond the very top they wanted to pay at my last job. My raises for the final three or four years, when they gave them at all, were 1-2% before inflation was considered. So I was basically "not losing as much money to inflation as people not getting raises".
My boss really didn't understand when I listed the low pay relative to my position and responsibilities as one of my dozen or so reasons for leaving.
It really, really bothers me that your boss was so mystified.
Anyone here a lore buff on Greyhawk and/or Dragonlance? Could use some advice/suggestions.
Have some Greyhawk stuff, love Dragonlance and was active in the commmunity there until things...took a turn and I ended up being a part of paizo. That was a number of years ago.
EDIT: Just discovered the Greyhawk stuff I have is out of print. Huh.
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My VP learned I was a flight risk. She immediately approved the management structure most likely to keep me around, with instructions to those managers to give me the lead on choosing my projects. She wanted to know why I was likely to leave so she could figure out a way to convince me to stay, and to improve her processes so she wouldn't be as likely to lose employees in the future.
Nobody leaves! NOBODY!
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Yikes, what a freaking quagmire... I don't have any experience at all in that kind of socially demanding work environment I guess, and I'm not sure I really ever would want to, certainly making friends and allies at work is one thing but I don't think I could ever truly be comfortable with employers who want to have their nose that far into my own personal business and driving motives/priorities.
Is this maybe tangentially related to the whole "we're a family" sort of mentality/culture that I've heard some businesses and industries push?
I think you may be misconstruing these exit "interviews". It's not so much, "How dare you leave?" as it is, "What did we do wrong, is there anything we can do to mitigate it, and is there a way we can convince you to stay?"
It bothers me that after the party(with cake) and tearful sendoff my boss got when he retired, all I got when I left was shock, sporadic thanks, and mostly polite inquiries over why I was leaving/ if I REALLY wanted to leave, quietly implying that I was making a mistake. Maybe that is petty of me, but after the... incident, I think I can be a little petty.
Just a little
Not too much
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Ooh, can you email me the vegetarian curry recipe? WW is always asking me to cook more plant-based food.Sorry -- Impus Major has his first physics midterm today so last night was hectic.
I'll try to write up some kind of recipe tonight that's better than, "Add these spices until it tastes right and cook until done."
Dammit! NobodysHome cracked my secret recipe!