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Hit points!
I have a guy in my group who has 18 CON, is a fighter and has rolled "1" for hit points for levels 2,3,4 and last night 5! He has less hit points then the Wizard (16 CON). We have a policy that you roll in front of everyone and you get what you roll. The fighter is mechanically optimised in every way, but given his hp's he's just crap. Don't heal in combat the 'experts' say - well without the cleric dumping every thing on the fighter every round he goes down like a sack.
Anyone else have issues with the Elephant in the Corner? 4e fixed this, variations of 3e fixed this (i.e. A Game of Throne), so why does PF still have the random hp rolls? Perhaps a requirement of 'at least' half on any hp roll. Please tell me I've just missed the relevant rule.
The person in question is ditching the character, unless someone can show we have been wrong by rolling hp's and accepting whatever the dice said. Thing is you can't say he did anything wrong, hp's are rolled during play, and with no control.
Thoughts,
S.
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It's my understanding that you are doing it by the books, but I have to say, as a DM, if this happened in a game of mine I wouldn't mind allowing the player to re-roll. I mean, if it happened once or twice, nah, but when it keeps stacking like that? Either the character needs to deal with the really crappy HP, or you should let him, i dunno... re-roll at least one or two of the HP rolls.
Of course, it is agreeable that this should be fixed. In my game I have my players keep track of what they have rolled for HP in the past, and let them take the average of all of the former rolls rounded down. Wouldn't fix your problem, but it helps even out the randomness a bit. Anyone else with a suggestion?
Hit points!
I have a guy in my group who has 18 CON, is a fighter and has rolled "1" for hit points for levels 2,3,4 and last night 5! He has less hit points then the Wizard (16 CON). We have a policy that you roll in front of everyone and you get what you roll. The fighter is mechanically optimised in every way, but given his hp's he's just crap. Don't heal in combat they 'experts' say - well without the cleric dumping every thing on the fighter every round he goes down like a sack.
Anyone else have issues with the Elephant in the Corner? 4e fixed this, variations of 3e fixed this (i.e. A Game of Throne), so why does PF still have the random hp rolls? Perhaps a requirement of 'at least' half on any hp roll. Please tell me I've just missed the relevant rule.
The person in question is ditching the character, unless someone can show we have been wrong by rolling hp's and accepting whatever the dice said. Thing is you can't say he did anything wrong, hp's are rolled during play, and with no control.
Thoughts,
S.
My groups always play with an "at least half" rule, so if you have d8 HD then you get 4+1d4. Nothing hoses a character as quickly as low HP so we just don't permit it.
Pathfinder Society automatically gives you "1/2 rounded up" when you level: d6 gets 4 HP, d8 gets 5, d10 gets 6, and D12 gets 7.
Either way works. But I'd never let a PC go forth with a 1 on an HP roll. It's just no fun for anyone.
I use average HP in my games. If a player wants to roll, then they eat what they rolled. No takebacks. They have to choose - average HP, or rolled HP. Perfectly fair and above board. I even allow the choice on a per level basis: they can roll for one level and take the average the next. Never had any complaints, because the choice is theirs. Of course, I like to minimize luck whenever possible, so I personally almost always take the average.
Mr. Fishy lets his players reroll under half...Mr. Fishy monsters and villians get to reroll half hit dice too, so it balances out. Dead PCs are hard to play. A few extra HP isn't going to break the game.
One of my players rolled 3 18's and 3 17's right in front of us... 5 of us saw it. One of my other players grabbed the dice and tryed to roll like that and got low rolls... the other player took back his dice and started to roll 18's again. He dosnt do it all the time, but more than average... and with us watching too... and rolls more natural 20's with every body watching too... and with dice we give him...
I use average HP in my games. If a player wants to roll, then they eat what they rolled. No takebacks. They have to choose - average HP, or rolled HP. Perfectly fair and above board. I even allow the choice on a per level basis: they can roll for one level and take the average the next. Never had any complaints, because the choice is theirs. Of course, I like to minimize luck whenever possible, so I personally almost always take the average.
I do exactly the same as this. It has worked out fine. Our whole group has adopted it. I round up on odd levels and round down on even levels to keep it even if players choose the average.
I do have one exception, I have always had a policy of rerolling any second "1" in a row until you get something other than a "1".
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I give three options, and they have to pick before each HD roll.
1. Middle number rounded down.
2. Roll any prechosen number of dice and average them (less risky that straight rolling).
3. Roll one die, and take what you get.
That way if a player is getting 1 hp consistently, he only has himself to blame.
Hit points!
I have a guy in my group who has 18 CON, is a fighter and has rolled "1" for hit points for levels 2,3,4 and last night 5! He has less hit points then the Wizard (16 CON). We have a policy that you roll in front of everyone and you get what you roll. The fighter is mechanically optimised in every way, but given his hp's he's just crap. Don't heal in combat the 'experts' say - well without the cleric dumping every thing on the fighter every round he goes down like a sack.
Anyone else have issues with the Elephant in the Corner? 4e fixed this, variations of 3e fixed this (i.e. A Game of Throne), so why does PF still have the random hp rolls? Perhaps a requirement of 'at least' half on any hp roll. Please tell me I've just missed the relevant rule.
The person in question is ditching the character, unless someone can show we have been wrong by rolling hp's and accepting whatever the dice said. Thing is you can't say he did anything wrong, hp's are rolled during play, and with no control.
Thoughts,
S.
It's been a long time since I played with standard rolled HD. I've played with 1d6 HD is rolled as 1d4+2, 1d8 = 1d4+4, 1d10 = 1d4+6, 1d12 = 1d4+8
You always end up with above average HP this way. These are supposed to be healthy characters so bad HPs doesn't make sense.
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They actually intentionally print the 1's on those dice... and thry're designed to roll 1's from time to time. This is not a problem. Its a feature.
Back in 2e days - and even some into 3e - we rolled 1 die under the actual class' hit die type (d8 for fighter, for instance) and added 2 so a fighter got d8+2 (d3+1 for d4 hit die types).
At some point, after 3e came out, we realized that we used point design to make our characters, defined class levels to improve them... then still rolled hit points. So now we use a straight point value based on the hit die type of the PC's class... base = the average of the die type rounded up adjusted by up to +2 points for epic campaigns.
I'm all for what random rolls do for the game... but its just not my group's preference.
I like 1d4 plus the modifer you need to get your classes HD (so d6 is 1d4 +2 and d10 is 1d4 +6)
I've played in games where you were able to reroll any number that was below your constitution modifier. Currently we are gaining at least 1/2 our dice each level.
Obviously, I think that this is something that should be agreed upon by everyone at the table and apply this to monsters as well.
Ive always used the following. My 100%/75%/50% rule for the first 3 levels.
1st lvl - Max HP
2nd level- if you roll less than 3/4 on your HD, you get 3/4 (example 6 on d8)
3rd lvl- if you roll less than 1/2 your HD, you get half (example 4 on a d8).
Always worked great for us.
We generally use the gambling method. The player can either take 1/2, or roll and accept the result. Doesn't penalize people for not taking a risk, and allows those who want to 'let it ride' to do so.
Ouch! If you aren’t interested in using a more generous houserule, I’d just give him a mulligan and let him reroll all 5 hit die.
Houserules we’ve used:
- Reroll 1s.
- 1s count as 2.
Neither of which insures the wizard won’t have more HP than the fighter, but the fighter would have 4+ more hit points right now.
I always let my PCs roll.
If they get below average it becomes average + 1. Anything above average is kept.
So, a d12 hit die character's average is 6.5 or 7. So, if they get a 6, they take 7. If they get a 12, they keep 12. Easy as that.
It makes it so that you do not have the fighter with 18 CON and 40 hit points at level 5, or the swordsage with 14 CON and 35 hp at level 8. That's a d8 hit die class for those wondering. 24 base hp before dice. Oh, yeah.
I made this change soon after playing the swordsage. Yes, it was garbage. It sucked to be a extremely overtuned and ridiculously strong character that was interesting to play... who could easily be one-round killed by creatures 2 CR lower than me. And this is a character that got Intuitive Strike for free! I attacked with Wisdom, used Wisdom instead of Strength for maneuvers, and added my Dex mod to damage. I was awesome.
Then my AC was like, 20. Because we were magic item starved...
Bad memories of limping around half-dead in combat, interspersed with the table going silent as I one-shot killed powerful monsters... oh, the 3.5e days. Where have they gone?
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For me, the randomness is part of the fun. The guy's got a good Con, so he's pulling at least 5 HP per level. Is he choosing the extra HP for favored class? Has he considered the Toughness feat? Combat Expertise? Dodge? Using a ranged weapon? He's had an outstanding run of bad luck, but he's still got lots of ways to compensate. I don't see any reason to DM fiat yet, but I'm getting more and more old school as I age.
At the game that I'm in, the GM has us roll, then we may choose to let the GM reroll our roll for us. I personally on let him reroll 1's and 2's on my d6 because I know just how bad he rolls.
I have the players roll hit points and I roll. Then they get to choose which of our rolls they'll take (the higher of the two, naturally). This keeps us rolling, but makes it so that taking only 1 hp is a lot less probable. We basically both have to roll it for the 1 to stick.
In theory, the expected value of the character's hit points, over time, rises to 65% to 70% of max depending on the size of the die involved. It works pretty well. They're insulated a bit from extremely low rolls because they're significantly less probable but with still quite a bit of variation.
Hit points!
I have a guy in my group who has 18 CON, is a fighter and has rolled "1" for hit points for levels 2,3,4 and last night 5! He has less hit points then the Wizard (16 CON). We have a policy that you roll in front of everyone and you get what you roll. The fighter is mechanically optimised in every way, but given his hp's he's just crap. Don't heal in combat the 'experts' say - well without the cleric dumping every thing on the fighter every round he goes down like a sack.
S.
I have to say that that player is a real trooper. Sounds like an unfun character to play. The game is supposed to be fun. Rolling less than half your hit die is is not fun.
As an option, you could allow the player an extra feat or trait if they get a low hit point roll. Something to keep things interesting.
Hit points!
I have a guy in my group who has 18 CON, is a fighter and has rolled "1" for hit points for levels 2,3,4 and last night 5! He has less hit points then the Wizard (16 CON). We have a policy that you roll in front of everyone and you get what you roll. The fighter is mechanically optimised in every way, but given his hp's he's just crap. Don't heal in combat the 'experts' say - well without the cleric dumping every thing on the fighter every round he goes down like a sack.
Anyone else have issues with the Elephant in the Corner? 4e fixed this, variations of 3e fixed this (i.e. A Game of Throne), so why does PF still have the random hp rolls? Perhaps a requirement of 'at least' half on any hp roll. Please tell me I've just missed the relevant rule.
The person in question is ditching the character, unless someone can show we have been wrong by rolling hp's and accepting whatever the dice said. Thing is you can't say he did anything wrong, hp's are rolled during play, and with no control.
Thoughts,
S.
What we do: The player rolls. If he does not like his roll he can ask the DM to roll for him, but if he ask the DM to roll he has to take that roll.
We always assign half+1 hp:
e.g.
d4 = 3hp
d6 = 4hp
d8 = 5hp
d10 = 6hp
d12 = 7hp
Another option I have seen is the d4+X method:
Instead of rolling the proper die, you roll a d4 and add the amount listed on the chart based on your hit die. Makes you always get a respectable amount without throwing variance out completely. This would work out pretty well using d6+X too.
d4 = d4 hp
d6 = d4+2 hp
d8 = d4+4 hp
d10 = d4+6 hp
d12 = d4+8 hp
I have always disagreed with rolling hit points normally - generally, bad rolls are much worse than average than good rolls are better. And the classes that need the hit points the most are the ones with the most variance in their totals.
Bah - you guys are wusses. Sometimes people have bad luck, it's part of the game.
I give my players the option of the average (alternating whether to round up or not), or a roll. It's their choice.
If you can't have fun because you rolled a one, that's a personal problem.
Rolled HP are something of a sore point for me. If we're playing a game where you randomize stats by rolling then I'm all for it. But when using point buy to ensure a consistent level of internal balance in the party, rolling HP completely botches it.
In my own games I mandate using the same HP per level as in PFS save I give characters a boost at 1st level.
The last game I was in where it was rolled HP only and I kept getting crap rolls for HP as the party barbarian, I about quit because of the DM's unwillingness to just allow a choice of straight average HP instead of rolling.
It just makes no sense. All classes have trade-offs Wizards get full spellcasting but have a weak BAB, barbarians are supposed to have lots of HP but lose out on lots of other things like social skills and magic. If high hit points are supposed to be a class feature then rolling them and getting stuck with poor rolls essentially shortchanges that character and gimps their ability to fulfill their role within the party.
So yeah, sore subject for me I guess...
One of my players rolled 3 18's and 3 17's right in front of us... 5 of us saw it. One of my other players grabbed the dice and tryed to roll like that and got low rolls... the other player took back his dice and started to roll 18's again. He dosnt do it all the time, but more than average... and with us watching too... and rolls more natural 20's with every body watching too... and with dice we give him...
Was he rolling 2 dice at a time? Both held in one hand? There's a rolling trick that will allow you to "almost" always roll what you want.
It takes a bit of practice to perfect, but it works. You sure he's not cheating?
My house rules for Player Characters:
1st level. You start with the maximum value.
Subsequent levels: Any roll of less than half the hit die value is raised to the half value. For example, if you've a d8, and you roll a 1,2 or 3, it's raised to a 4.
+1, this exactly is how my group games as well. Fantastically beautiful minds must think alike..
I give my characters at least average hitpoints for their level, but I let them roll and try to get better than that. It ends up with most characters having a bit better than average hitpoints, overall minor differences.
By the way, the first Die full isn't a houserule I think ?
There are many ways to solve the OP's problem pre-emptively:
- additional HP from race: "frail" races (elf, halfling, gnome) get +4, "strong" ones (half-orc, dwarf) get +8, intermediate (others) get +6
- choosing a minimum on the dice: all 1s are treated as 2s, all 1s and 2s are treated as 3s, etc.
- allowing to choose between rolling or taking the average value (or both: roll, and if below average, take average)
All this has to be chosen (and agreed upon) before actual play, though. You can't really just decide to change HPs mid-game.
However, like all character drawbacks, this can be an interesting plot hook. Let's imagine that your currently frail fighter, sipping a beverage at the local tavern, hears a rumor of a miraculous font capable of giving health to anyone bathing in it. Finding and using the font would be a quest in itself, and the font could have the effect of granting enough permanent HP to bring one character to what their average HP would be (and, to prevent abuse, this could be once a year, and it could be a fixed value, reducing HPs if above average).
All this has to be chosen (and agreed upon) before actual play, though. You can't really just decide to change HPs mid-game.
I changed hitpoints mid-game, just like that ;)
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I think that part of the issue here is what role are the players filling in the campaign world.
In the 2 campaigns that I am currently TTGing the players are the heroes. They were built using the heroic (25) points cost and they are well and above individually more powerful than their peers.
We don't roll hp at all and instead assign Max hp at 1st level, 75% for the rest, and keep the odd .5 to add to the next level's hit points.
Mobs and NPCs in general are given the average expected unless we are talking about the BBEG or someone heroically significant.
This constitutes a heroic focus.
On the other hand if you are playing with the party members being just another adventuring group in a world of adventurers (where many others are at least as if not more powerful than your players)then random die rolling for stats and hp is probably appropriate.
Still as a GM you need to realise that regardless what the campaign focus is, the game is about people having fun. If your Player has consistantly rolled 1s then I would suggest either Macro-game and say ok sport re-roll until you get at least an average total on 5d10 or turn it into an adventure opportunity.
Could it be that there is an ancient curse on the players line? Did his great grandfather run over an old leprechaun or something with his fruit cart? Was his great great aunt someone who stole a simple bauble which had enormous significance to the lich and it cursed that any male of the line who inherits it will be thin of blood? Maybe something as simple as finding out what it is and rectifying or appeasing the parties involved will allow you the GM to grant the re-rolls or just assign him a result you want.
Of course if you want to turn it into an adventure make it so that it will not require lots of fighting (otherwise you will kill the player off while he is trying to fix himself!)
I think that part of the issue here is what role are the players filling in the campaign world.
In the 2 campaigns that I am currently TTGing the players are the heroes. They were built using the heroic (25) points cost and they are well and above individually more powerful than their peers.
Bah you only handed out 20 points you jibby-merchant! :P
But yeah, as a GM I handed out 25 points to make the players solid and robust, and to really keep on point that they were significant players in and around their Duchy. They were/are pretty much the apex go-to guys (even at L5) for getting things done. At L7 they are pretty much the biggest game in town.
By having them have access to higher stats I have been able to provide them with enough meat to kick around in a confident and heroic manner without getting too easily mashed by random bad luck - otherwise to achieve the same result I'd have to grant more levels. But that becomes apples and organges at around L10 where its all about the Levels... and things get 'different', and the game (in my opinion) can devolve away from the scope I was trying to create... that makes a 'national' level campaign as opposed to 'regional' where I needed them
I wanted them to be heroes, and something special, and also tough enough to really put the boot into from time to time, Tough enough to tackle a BBEG yet STILL be in some sort of danger when the rabble roused sufficiently.
we roll our HP's but we use some house rules to elviate bad roles and bad choices.
we use retraining inspired by 3.5
each level up my players can retrain 1 feat, 1 spell, a level up worth of skill points, or retrain just about any selectable feature. they can only choose to retrain ONE of these categories though. in the case of HP every player keeps track of previous rolls. retraining has some limitations as well, they can only swap out features that they qualified at the time of what ever feature there retraining. so they could swap out say weapon focus they took at level 1 for toughness but not swap out for craft magical arms and armor as they did not qualify at level 1. when they retrain HP rolls they keep the better of the 2 rolls. the previous or the new one. this gives players the chance that have nothing to retrain or made no poor choices to still make use of the rule, they can always go back and have a small chance of changing that 7 they rolled for HP into a 8 with no penalty.
this house rule has no effect on overall power really and gives players chances to correct mistakes or features that are no longer viable at higher levels.
i wanted to use the AVG HD rule but could never find it until recently in the DMG. i always thought it was a houserule.
now at level up my players can choose to take the avg or roll, they don't get the best however unless the choose to retrain. now they have the option of retraining there HP to the avg and later on trying to retrain and beat the AVG once all there roles are avg.
i like the 1d4+ remaining HD that some use. i might have to start using that as well. i think i will make it 1d6+ remaining though. this will give spellcasters less HP and unable to utilize it but gives fighter types more. and i feel that actually makes sense.
My group liked one of the options from the Beta, double max HP at first level.
For other levels, the player and GM each roll, player takes the best one.
I use average HP in my games. If a player wants to roll, then they eat what they rolled. No takebacks. They have to choose - average HP, or rolled HP. Perfectly fair and above board. I even allow the choice on a per level basis: they can roll for one level and take the average the next. Never had any complaints, because the choice is theirs. Of course, I like to minimize luck whenever possible, so I personally almost always take the average.
I do very similarly. At the start of a campaign, players are asked to choose
1. Roll HP, re-roll 1s.
2. Take the average (so a d8 you would take 4, 5, 4, 5 as you leveled)
The whole group has to do it the same way. They've picked rolling--which were I a player, is not what I would pick, but as you say, it's their choice so they seem happy with it.
Hit points!
I have a guy in my group who has 18 CON, is a fighter and has rolled "1" for hit points for levels 2,3,4 and last night 5! He has less hit points then the Wizard (16 CON).
Thoughts,
S.
Are you sure the wizard's not cheating.
Fighter, as described 10 + 4 + 4*5 = 34
Wizard, (all max rolls!) (4+3) *5 = 35
That's one lucky wizard.
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Addressing your post. I've rolled hp forever. Sure 1s suck, but never had a problem. Recently a PC has suffered a fate similar to your fighter. It did make play problematic for him. I've instituted a soft "1/4 hp minimum per level" . I haven't set anything in stone yet. But a series of 1s is a killer.
Our rule is and has always been that you can re-roll the 1's.. Nothing that will upset the system, but it makes a huge difference for the fighter/barbarian who rolled 1-2, and nobody else complains :D
I'd suggest you find a way to give the character HP's permanently through an in-game event. If they player dumped the character due to bad die rolls, everyone loses. So it is likely better for your campaign to fix it. You could do it with a 'redo', or you could acknowledge that fate tends to balance out and have something cool happen in-game to that improves the character's ability to take hits.
It sounds like he's around 20 points lower than average would dictate. You could have a role-playing interaction with some celestial (or whatever is appropriate for your campaign) end up with him being 'touched' and getting the 20 points. Or you could make up for it with DR 5/- or Fast Heal 3. You'd want to carefully consider both of those, since the next ten levels could all be a roll of '10'. But it is a different way to achieve the same goal.
Definitely fix it is my suggestion.
I see how this can be an issue, but the opposite of the spectrum can be true just as easily - that is the nature of the dice. I have a player who has rolled his max HD amount twice or thrice, while other players rolled a 2 or 3. Of course, I'm the same guy who is liberal with how ability scores are generated, so I can't say I'm completely submissive to the dice gods.
I don't see it being particularly gamebreaking, but as other posters have said, 1/2 HD is generally the standard. You could always allow the player to make that decision him/herself - play it safe and get the set amount, or potentially get more or less.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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What we do: The player rolls. If he does not like his roll he can ask the DM to roll for him, but if he ask the DM to roll he has to take that roll.
This is how our local group does things as well. Tends to elevate the average just a little bit. Does occasionally backfire for a player when they roll a 3 on a d10 and take the GM's roll, who then gets a 1 or 2.
It's possible I'll be socially ostracizing myself here, but for all the groups I GM for I offered up max HP at every level (obviously nobody turned it down). It makes it easier for everybody, and it also means that the player characters continue to be "heroic." Of course I also do the same with monsters and NPCs, so it keeps it in balance.
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Our rule is and has always been that you can re-roll the 1's.. Nothing that will upset the system, but it makes a huge difference for the fighter/barbarian who rolled 1-2, and nobody else complains :D
I often do this as well. After all, if the players don't have enough HP, then you can't throw the scarier monsters at them. :P