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But instead of arguing who is right and who is wrong, maybe we should look at how to find that sweet gooey center of goodness instead.Were you eating a doughnut when you wrote this last part? Just asking :P
Maaayyyybbbeeeee.....mmmmmmm forbidden donut......hey, that would make a good cursed item....
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Maaayyyybbbeeeee.....mmmmmmm forbidden donut......hey, that would make a good cursed item....But instead of arguing who is right and who is wrong, maybe we should look at how to find that sweet gooey center of goodness instead.Were you eating a doughnut when you wrote this last part? Just asking :P
Only if the activated "monster" from it was a jelly that popped out and swallowed the wielder whole.
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Things!
So we have a decent sized community down here. The problem (on my side of town) is we don't have the physical space to run multiple games. One of our 7 local game stores where PFS happens the most is small and we're sharing space with the more numerous 40k tabletop players. It's the only place that's a centralized location for folks, as well as one of the only stores of its kind that stays open in the weekday evenings late enough for us to run sessions after work.
We are by far not short of GMs at all, praise Sarenrae! In that regular group that meets, we have 3-4 people who are willing to GM. And we plan our games in advance so we know folks are eligible to play and all that good stuff. It just blows playing with 6 or 7 folks and breezing through scenarios because you're overpowering foes.
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My appology if I doubted you - will have to look it up. Haven't seen one in play - but my groups I GM are mainly low level.
But it clearly shows why a huge level gap is a problem. And I'm not surpised about your experience as not being fun in these circumstances.Thod
No problem! I love my channeling cleric! 6d6, 9 times a day with a DC 19 will save (undead do not get bonuses to will, wish outsiders would too :P) at 7. At level 9 and onward, he will go straight Holy Vindicator and get his AC up to 35+ with full plate + Vindicator's Shield ability! :)
/Come to think of it, using this EXACT build but a negative channeler would be SICK. 6d6 damage DC 19 for half at level 7 against all those scenarios with living folks would be BEASTLY. And you could take more extra channels since you wouldn't need to take the channel ability that allows you to deny smart undead channel resistance.
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Come to think of it, using this EXACT build but a negative channeler would be SICK. 6d6 damage DC 19 for half at level 7 against all those scenarios with living folks would be BEASTLY. And you could take more extra channels since you wouldn't need to take the channel ability that allows you to deny smart undead channel resistance.
Don't forget that a level 7 wizard is going to do 7d6 damage to a slightly smaller area from a much greater range to almost every target, living or dead. DC is going to be similar, especially if it's an evoker.
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My appology if I doubted you - will have to look it up. Haven't seen one in play - but my groups I GM are mainly low level.
But it clearly shows why a huge level gap is a problem. And I'm not surpised about your experience as not being fun in these circumstances.Thod
No problem! I love my channeling cleric! 6d6, 9 times a day with a DC 19 will save (undead do not get bonuses to will, wish outsiders would too :P) at 7. At level 9 and onward, he will go straight Holy Vindicator and get his AC up to 35+ with full plate + Vindicator's Shield ability! :)
/Come to think of it, using this EXACT build but a negative channeler would be SICK. 6d6 damage DC 19 for half at level 7 against all those scenarios with living folks would be BEASTLY. And you could take more extra channels since you wouldn't need to take the channel ability that allows you to deny smart undead channel resistance.
Actually, Brother Elias (7th level) had a DC22 Will save to his negative channel.
(1/2 level) = 3
(22 Cha) = 6
(Improved Channel Feat) = 2
(Sacred Conduit Trait) = 1
Director of Brand Strategy
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It doesn't really matter whether gold matters or not. There are rules that allow for playing out of one's subtier to determine when one can and can't do so. Even if someone on the boards could prove that playing up wouldn't break the system, it's still not allowed except in specific cases. If Hyrum and I start getting the impression that people are specifically engineering situations that allow them to take advantage of the ability to play up, we'll have to reassess whether these conditional exceptions are actually in the Society's best interest.
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If Hyrum and I start getting the impression that people are specifically engineering situations that allow them to take advantage of the ability to play up, we'll have to reassess whether these conditional exceptions are actually in the Society's best interest.
Fair warning to all, last time Mark said something like this, we lost the replay rules... ;)
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If Hyrum and I start getting the impression that people are specifically engineering situations that allow them to take advantage of the ability to play up, we'll have to reassess whether these conditional exceptions are actually in the Society's best interest.Fair warning to all, last time Mark said something like this, we lost the replay rules... ;)
I think there's this general assumption that life after Josh has changed some of the assumptions that drove PFS rules and is causing an internal Paizo full readdress of the system. So far via my observations, this is not the case.
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If Hyrum and I start getting the impression that people are specifically engineering situations that allow them to take advantage of the ability to play up, we'll have to reassess whether these conditional exceptions are actually in the Society's best interest.
Mark, the rules played as they are meant to *Clarifying the "Playing Up" Rule* are hard to "engineer", near impossible in fact.
The problem is the rules are not written they way Josh meant them to be used.
As written people can come to the conclusion that you can play out of "tier", which you can't. Or can not play down a sub-tier, which you can.
I am sure you and Hyrum are working on clarifying/Changing them in the next update, but as of now they are really hard to understand unless you know what Josh meant.
Edit: also another problem is even when I explain the rules to people I get Play, Play, Play! thrown in my face, And I still don't think that is the intent of Play, Play, Play!
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Everyone should make a new 1st level character when your main character hits their 3rd or 4th level. By keeping a 2 or 3 level gap between your characters you know that no matter what sub-tier everyone else can or wants to play you have a legal character also.
I agree and try to do this myself. Unfortunately, the players who are trying to game the system, either don't do this, or they fail to reveal another character that would be more suited to the party.
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Sometimes playing up is needed to balance out the amount of gold you gain because you have a character that s one level out of ter and to muster a table you have to play that character at the lower tier and there for do not gain the proper amount of gold for you character level.
As for the challenge factor many of the season 0 an season 1 mods just are not challenging in the least at tiers below 4. The two most challenging mods are The Citadel of Flame and the Mod set in the Mana wastes.
Back on topic, I think we need to split up playing at conventions and playing PFS at game stores or at home. Perhaps playing up should not be allowed should not be allowed at conventions were there are a larger pool of gamers present than home play or play at game stores, at my store we have between 12 to 24 gamers per secession and sometimes to muster a table you either have to play up or down depending the needs of the group. Both Pain Lord and Azmyth can confirm this.
I see no reason to limit playing up. If the player wants to take the risk he should reap the rewards in terms of gold. As far as PA goes
I have a el 10 Thief and have only not gotten full PA twice one game I had to leave early and the other we finished the Mod without going to a need place to gain the PA point.
One thing I see on the forums is a bunch of hyperventilating rules lawyers that forget the whole purpose of the game is to have fun and not always get caught up in the of the rules.
I am also of the firm oppion that you should be able to spend more than 2 PA to buy Magic Items otherwise you just hoard PA for Raise dead or to get resurrected.
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As written people can come to the conclusion that you can play out of "tier", which you can't. Or can not play down a sub-tier, which you can.
I'm not convinced that playing out of tier is any worse that playing up a sub tier. In fact it's quit frustrating that a sixth level character can't play in a tier 7-11 subtier 7-8 scenario but can play a sub tier 8-9 in a five to nine scenario. Makes no sense at all from any perspective.