What's a plot twist card?
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Like the topic title says. Also, how are your players and/or your GM handling their implementation.
Do you use them differently than the deck intended?
In my Runelords AP I'm running for my friends we have been using the Plot Twist cards and they have been not only lifesavers for the party at times but also alot of fun.
As the GM I enjoy reacting to the unpredictability the cards bring to the table. I have overruled a few card uses but for balance or "it just makes no dang sense to play this" reasons. Its all judgement calls and with a very creative party it gets interesting quick.
I want to add that I have a draw of cards for myself behind the screen too. 7 cards....the 7 sins cards to be specific. Since we are playing Rise of the Runelords I keep these handy to use at appropriate times for the PC's that have been showing off those traits (a flubbed skill check here, etc). They also help to remind me to keep a tally of what player made which sin "offence".
Overall, I'll be using these cards from now on in every Pathfinder game I run.
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The cards kick butt, and my players are loving them. I'm using the deck as described, which is similar to how a GM I used a homebrew card set in a Legend of the Five Rings RPG game. Hasn't caused any issues at the table since I guess I'm old hat at the concept. My player's have been very enthusiastic about their use, and it has really raised their creativity.
What's a plot twist card?
http://paizo.com/store/byCompany/p/paizoPublishingLLC/gameMastery/itemPacks /v5748btpy8b8m
Edit: Darn playtest classes...
Yup. I've been handing them out as rewards for those sessions that are dominated by role-playing. More often then not my players have been using them in combat for their numerical bonuses rather than for abstract plot twists as suggested. It's understandable. Why risk wasting a card on the DM's interpretation when you can just go with a sure thing?
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We were using these in a Kingmaker game that died. Great idea but the GM did not let us even suggest how they would affect the game. We would just play the card and he would make what ever change he wanted. Personally it was pointless to even to have them as a player if I couldn't even provide a little input by letting the GM know what I was thinking when I use the card. "I find a Gem" led to "You hop on your horse and realize something under the saddle is making you uncomfortable". Really? Why the heck did my character decide to randomly hop on my horse... and why didn't I feel this the 36 miles it took to get here?
/rant off
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I handed them out in my 4E game, roughly 1 per session to people. They could keep it, or hand it in at the end of the session and they would get a new one next session. If they use it, they get a new on next session.
I've only stopped one person from ever using the card, only because it made a negotiation absolutely trivial, and a get out of the encounter free card. Otherwise, they've all been great uses and brought something new to the game.
Just ordered them. Looking forward to this, much more rewarding than the fumbles deck.
I've been drawing them in groups of five and using them as a random adventure. It works pretty well.
CEO
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Thanks everybody for posting their experiences with Plot Twist Cards! This is one of the first products here at Paizo that I have taken the reins of from start to finish. In general, I use the cards without the mechanical element. I like to have my players put their own ideas into the story rather than just getting a couple of extra plusses on a roll. I love having to roll with the ideas and incorporate them into the game.
In my Rise of the Runelords campaign, a plot twist card ended up having one of the players find a note at a roadside shrine to Desna that was written by a former best friend from when he was a kid. That best friend ended up being the traitor in Hook Mountain Massacre, so it was neat that there was this backstory that came entirely from a Plot Twist card.
If you love improvising your storyline based on the actions of the players, then you will LOVE these cards.
-Lisa
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Like the topic title says. Also, how are your players and/or your GM handling their implementation.
Do you use them differently than the deck intended?
This is one of two rewards I hand out as a GM (besides XP). My players are allowed to sway my vote as well ("What about that awesome and extremely witty thing I said to 'NPC' that allowed me to gain her favor in the coming war?") I hand them out at the end of the night. Any player can only have one card at a time so this encourages a steady use and attempt-to-gain of the cards. I give one card to each of my main villains. My players can't have ALL the fun, right!?! :D
@ Lisa....btw, I was introduced to the PT cards at PaizoCon 2010. So thank you for whoever arranged that game with Greg Vaughn. :)
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I've been using them to run my Shackled City adventure path game. I wasn't sure the players would go for it, but they were keen to give the cards a try. I started everyone with two cards and they get a new one every time their character gains a level. They were a bit slow to start using them--I actually reminded everyone they had cards just in case they'd forgotten--playing only one card in three sessions. However, our last session saw three cards get used. The party will level in the next session and get more cards. I'm still debating on how many cards to let each player keep in their "hand". Maybe I'll cap it at three, where they can still draw a new card at each level but then discard any above three.
I haven't used them yet, but bought them a few months ago.
I have read the instructions and flipped through them, but I am still kind of unsure exactly how they are to be used.
For Example, I just pulled a random card...there is the Title and a skill bonus (+20 to a skill check for one round), then there is 4 things listed after it.
I THINK it is that the players get to use the card for it's mechanical bonus, then the GM mixes in one of the 4 plot points. Is that right?
Whenever a player rolls a natural 20 or natural 1 when making an Intimidate, Bluff, or Diplomacy check, they get to pull from the Plot Twist Deck and incorporate what it says there either positively or negatively, respectively. The character keeps the card for the rest of the session and turns it in at the end of the game that day for 50 XP per card. I have similar mechanics for the Critical Hit and Critical Fumble decks.
I have read the instructions and flipped through them, but I am still kind of unsure exactly how they are to be used.For Example, I just pulled a random card...there is the Title and a skill bonus (+20 to a skill check for one round), then there is 4 things listed after it.
I THINK it is that the players get to use the card for it's mechanical bonus, then the GM mixes in one of the 4 plot points. Is that right?
I am bumping my own post...as I am still not quite sure how these are to be used. I know when they get handed out and such, but how do you actually use them?
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My players have really taken a shine to them. Seriously, they'll get angry if I forget to deal them out!
The way we use them: At the beginning of each session (not adventure), I deal out one random card to each player, and ([number of players]-1)to myself. I reserve the right to veto any card, but if I do, that player can exchange their card for a new card. All cards get returned at the end of the night.
So far the party has mostly used the cards to cause more trouble for themselves (Boss monster! Why not fight two!?), while I use my cards to help the party along the right track. It's worked well.
We started using them last session and had the most fun we've had in a long time, its was totally anarchic madness.
We decided to give everyone (GM included) 1 card, and they can play it at anytime, even if it's not there turn, and you get another card whenever you play it also when you roll a natural 20.
A simple encounter against 3 livardfolk went for 80 minutes and we had a ball.
They reminded us of the Encounter cards for Mayfair games (or Westend?), as well as the cards in TORG.
I bought these for my 4E game, and although we haven't been using them long, I think it's a great little addition.
How I use them is, I hand 1 out each time the players level. They can use it to get the numerical bonus, only if they have a story reason tied to the card, using the 4 below as examples.
Maybe I need an example...So let's say on of my players pulls and decides to play the "Wrath" card.
It says it prevents the target from concentrating for 1 round.
In addition, It has four things listed on it:
-Shopperkeeper hates you
-Someone is looking for revenge
-Foe favors one target
-Rage clouds someone's mind
Okay, I get the player gets to use the effect of the a target not being able to concentrate...but what then?
I feel like I am being extra stupid here, but then what?
Do I just randomly decide that one of the four things listed happens in the near future? Or are those four things examples of how to work the "Wrath" and lack of concentration into the game?
Maybe I need an example...So let's say on of my players pulls and decides to play the "Wrath" card.
It says it prevents the target from concentrating for 1 round.
In addition, It has four things listed on it:
-Shopperkeeper hates you
-Someone is looking for revenge
-Foe favors one target
-Rage clouds someone's mindOkay, I get the player gets to use the effect of the a target not being able to concentrate...but what then?
I feel like I am being extra stupid here, but then what?
Do I just randomly decide that one of the four things listed happens in the near future? Or are those four things examples of how to work the "Wrath" and lack of concentration into the game?
I haven't seen these Plot Twist cards yet, but I've used similar cards before in the past. From what I can tell through context and conjecture, those four things are merely examples of what could happen. The player proffers the card at the appropriate time, and based on the given examples, the GM makes something similar to the examples happen.
They're a lot of fun, and it gives the players a little control (In their eyes, at least. Heh.) of the plot of the story. Plus, as Lisa mentioned above, in the hands of a creative GM, they can take the plot to the next level.
I try to let the player decide how to use the suggestions to encourage them to be a part of the storytelling.
For your example, I would say they would be using it on a caster most likely, and they invoke the feeling of wrath in that target. So in this instance, the particular player that plays it causes a more than normal angry reaction from that target that forces him to be unable to concentrate.
Based on the player I would modify the flavor (if they didn't add their own).
For a player that always has a witty retort, I would use the 4th flavor option "Over the course of trading barbs, it appears you hit on one that really struck a chord."
For a brooding/serious character I would maybe use the 2nd flavor option. "This person seems to really be determined to put you down, like he has something against you."
Both versions open up a possible story that they can look into, why did the guy react so harshly to a comment about his father? What does he have against the player that he seems to be singling him out? These can lead to interesting side stories, or even help flesh out the enemy, or even better tie-in to the story they are in.
I wasn't a fan of the 'idea' behind these cards. The old 'Masterbook' system had something similiar... And i tried running an Indiana Jones game in that system...
HATED them...
DMs have ENOUGH trouble trying to juggle all the monsters, npcs, rules, and story... without worrying about if the Player is going to 'trump' card you and sidetrack the game...
Not sure how POWERFUL these cards are... but the masterbook ones were nuts...
I think it's curious that almost all of the feedback here is from GMs and not from players. Any more players out there who want to give some feedback?
*looks at the thread heading*
*looks at the completely unhelpful posts from people who arent even using the cards*
Look this thread can actually be really helpful to a few of us here so I'd like to hear from people who are ACTUALLY USING THESE in thier games as opposed to tthe people showing up just to crap in the thread who HAVENT USED THE CARDS.
If you find yourself having something not at all helpful to say please consider starting another thread where you can crap all over this product to your hearts content. Thank You.
back on topic:
I bought these cards in between the 1st and 2nd chapter of Curse of the crimson throne. My game actually started BEFORE the AP and had been using an action point mechanic. My players started the AP at around 2nd or 3rd level. So when they got thier first harrow reading and saw that they got harrow points that were basically action point type stuff I basically giving them an extra action point instead.
They are now 4th level (I shifted them to the slow advancement track during Edge of Anarchy, and back to Medium at the beginning of Seven Days to the Grave, wasnt a perfect solution but I talked to the players about it and they understood) and are about to get their 2nd harrow reading. I'd like to give them Plot Twist cards instead of an extra Action Point and I'm interested in hearing people's ACTUAL EXPERIENCES with the cards so please keep it coming.
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Currently, I am running Kingmaker, and we just started the 4th Module.
I pass out 1 card per game session, and (If unused by game's end), the player can opt to keep the card, or chance it with a new cae Kingdom's foundation.rd at the beginning of the next game.
I also draw 2 cards for my Bad Guys to use, and 2 for use by Allied NPCs (All PCs have Leadership at this point), as well as several NPCs that we have been developing along with the PCs since the early days of the Kingdom's founding.
So, to recap
Each PC: 1 card, may choose to hold it, or get a new one next time.
DM: 2 Pro and 2 Con cards.
-Ron
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Chief Technical Officer
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Can someone describe the actual mechanics (from the box) and some of the possible plot twists?
(And, yeah.... I know I'm a card subscriber but I actually haven't opened by box)
The main rules card, along with some sample cards, are pictured on the product page. (I'd link it if I weren't posting from an iPhone.)
Depending on your group's desires, they can choose one of the themed suggestions, *or* use the provided mechanical benefit.
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Since our Kingmaker game is very story driven and sandboxy, I thought it was the perfect time to introduce these cards and try them out. I am using them a little different:
I had each player draw a card and keep it face up for them to play. I also had them draw a card without looking at it and I recorded it secretly. The first card was the action card, the second card was the reaction card.
Players each get one plot twist card they can play at any time. If they want to use it in combat, you get the black banner effect. If you want to use the story aspect, you tell the GM who or what situation you are playing the card on. Most importantly, the card will always have a beneficial effect for that individual, or if possible the party.
When the action plot card is played, the GM plays the reaction card secretly and the effect is meant to be consequential to the party, sort of a equal and opposite reaction that establishes balance again.
This way the party can change the storyline, but sometimes there are side effects.
As a final note, once they play their plot card, I award them a hero point.
They get new cards every so often, and if they have not used their existing card, it gets replaced.
So far it was worked well, though some of the cards have been played in ways I have to work VERY creatively to make them positive for the players, LOL. For instance, one of my players played the lust card on Kesten and Svetlana...umm what?
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OK first up our group HAS BEEN USING the plot twist cards for about 7 sessions and I'm starting to dislike them. I think they could have been designed better so that they listed effects such as "In Combat", "Spellcasting", "Roleplaying", "Out of Combat" etc and then be centered around the specific theme as they are. That way players could use them at the appropriate moment ie in combat they can use the "In Combat" effect
At the moment the cards can be ridiculously random, virtually useless or game breaking. My players try and just use them up at odd times because the specific card they have doesn't fit into any situation they're in. An example is the one where you fall into a pit and find a gem "Yay free gp!" - lame.
Another issues is some of the cards have the potential to be game breakers if the DM is not careful or quick thinking. For example in one session a player used the "An Artifact is Destroyed" card to destroy an artifact. This pretty much nullified the adventure I had intended to run. Luckily I was able to lead this event into another adventure but you can't expect all DMs to do that.
Another session had a player collapse a temple on the BBEG thus thwarting that encounter and just last session while playing City of Golden Death a player collapsed the bridge a tough encounter was on thus avoiding that encounter as well.
I don't like having to tell the players they can't use a card but I've been forced to because the situation they wanted to use didn't make sense, for example one player was in a room of magical darkness being attacked by an invisible creature and he decided to play the card "You catch a glimpse of an unseen foe" WTH?! That makes no sense?!
My advice is if you don't want your carefully constructed adventure/session/campaign to be potentially ruined, don't use these cards. If you are a quick thinking DM who agrees to veto the cards that don't make sense, have fun with them!
Reebo
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Reebo, I agree with you that these are not really tools an inexperienced GM should use, since they require thinking outside the box and adapting on the fly to *even* more things the players can do to completely change your storyline in unexpected ways.
Two things might help though...
One is I interpret the cards, not the players, and if you look at the card from the perspective of a mercurial djinn granting a player a wish, it becomes easier (at least it was for me) to come up with a good way to have the plot twist take place. If the wish is reasonable and not too powerful, they grant it. If the player tries to overstep whats reasonable, feel free to twist the plot twist. In other words, train your players what the limits are of the cards, and they will adjust their use accordingly, after a few hard knocks. Or you can just come out and tell them if you would rather.....
Second, only allow the cards use when you have time to think about things before you adjust the storyline.
Also, it is good for a GM to think about how powerful he wants the cards to be before anyone actually uses them. For instance, I would probably never let a card destroy an artifact, because they aren't that directly powerful in my game. Perhaps a card could allow it to be lost or stolen temporarily, but we all know artifacts have a way of letting themselves be found or changing hands if they really want, so its really little impact on your storyline except a brief interlude without the artifact.
I think these cards might be difficult to use in a more railroady campaign like some of the APs, but they seem like they would work better in homebrews and sandbox style adventures, where the story is more open.