The 'Eidelon broken, zomg' arguments, especially when theoretical, always start off assuming the eidelon get's a full attack and wins initiative the first round of combat.
Uhm, guess what. That pretty much assures anything is going to win at higher levels. Making it level 20 is pretty much the same. Give someone initiative at level 20 and they'll utterly destroy one creature.
Most eidelons are glass cannons. They are hyper effective against one opponent. However, they are extremely weak against multiple opponents. You can take out a summoner and it's eidelon with two dozen ranged creatures with a CR = 1/2 the summoner's level without too much difficulty. Because the eidelon is going to get shredded. Yep, he can pounce and shred one enemy per round. But he's going to get pincushioned by the other 23 creatures. The summoner can only keep him up so long by feeding him his HP. And heaven help the summoner if one or two of those guys can see invisible (assuming the summoner can cast it).
This doesn't make them broken, it just makes them require different tactics as a GM to threaten.
If defending weapons were meant to stack with THEMSELVES, it would say so in the descriptor. They stack with all other bonuses, meaning it is not shield, not deflection, not dodge, not natural armor, not armor, nor dex. It is "defending".
This falls under the "obvious abuse" column, as a 64k investment and a friendly cleric can provide +40 AC. It is not a matter of what the book says, this is blatantly obvious that it would never fly with any GM.
Or... I might let you do it, only to let you meet a fully buffed and PC-equipped marilith Antipaladin1 (ECR19) with 6 defending weapon, defending armor spikes, an amulet of mighty fists (defending) to enhance her tail slap. And let you perish at the hands of an AC 101/113 (+4 deflection, +40 defending, +14 armor, +20 natural armor, +9 dex, +4 shield, +12 if smiting) monster. To hit, she has +30 or so, but with PC gear and ranks in UMD, she whips out her scroll of time stop, and casts divine favor, divine power, righteous might, blessing of fervor and whatever. Now she has +47 or whatever.
No, I didn't need to go so far with the AC, but I did, just to prove a point about PCs vs GMs.
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1) I just don't see these Kryptonite Weaknesses you refer to. I only see the Summoner/Eidolon outdamaging other damage builds by a huge margin and also able to cast spells and tank.
Weaknesses.
- "If the summoner is unconscious, asleep, or killed, his eidolon is immediately banished." so I hope no one ever attacks the camp at night, or the inn you are staying at since...
- "A summoner can summon his eidolon in a ritual that takes 1 minute to perform." so even if you aren't attacked at night, I hope you aren't in a situation where having your eidelon out is a problem, particularly for towns or large eidelons in small places.
- "...spells such as dismissal and banishment work normally"
- Whenever the summoner gains a level, he must decide how these points are spent, ,and they are set until he gains another level of summoner."
- Equipment is divided between you and your eidolon, and as noted "An eidolon cannot wear armor of any kind, as the armor interferes with the summoner’s connection to the eidolon."
- "If the eidolon is more than 10,000 feet away, it is immediately returned to its home plane.
- 3/4 BAB
That is off the top of my head.
Also, James isn't trolling. He's disagreeing with you. And frankly he's making good points.
- "If the eidolon is more than 10,000 feet away, it is immediately returned to its home plane.- 3/4 BAB
I must say, 10 000 feet away is reaaaally circumstantial. Also, 3/4 BAB isn't really a weakness, it's just lack of a strength. The others I agree with though, especially sleep. That's a huge frakkin weakness.
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I must say, 10 000 feet away is reaaaally circumstantial. Also, 3/4 BAB isn't really a weakness, it's just lack of a strength. The others I agree with though, especially sleep. That's a huge frakkin weakness.
- "If the eidolon is more than 10,000 feet away, it is immediately returned to its home plane.- 3/4 BAB
It is circumstantial, until you teleport or plane shift, which is something you do at 20th level. And if you're going to melee, 3/4 bab matters when you are comparing directly with full BAB.
But I would agree those are far lesser to the others.
1) I just don't see these Kryptonite Weaknesses you refer to. I only see the Summoner/Eidolon outdamaging other damage builds by a huge margin and also able to cast spells and tank.
Weaknesses.
- "If the summoner is unconscious, asleep, or killed, his eidolon is immediately banished." so I hope no one ever attacks the camp at night, or the inn you are staying at since...
- "A summoner can summon his eidolon in a ritual that takes 1 minute to perform." so even if you aren't attacked at night, I hope you aren't in a situation where having your eidelon out is a problem, particularly for towns or large eidelons in small places.
- "...spells such as dismissal and banishment work normally"
- Whenever the summoner gains a level, he must decide how these points are spent, ,and they are set until he gains another level of summoner."
- Equipment is divided between you and your eidolon, and as noted "An eidolon cannot wear armor of any kind, as the armor interferes with the summoner’s connection to the eidolon."
- "If the eidolon is more than 10,000 feet away, it is immediately returned to its home plane.
- 3/4 BAB
That is off the top of my head.
Also, James isn't trolling. He's disagreeing with you. And frankly he's making good points.
1)2nd Level Spell, Summon Eidolon. Takes 1 round. Or perhaps I can cast Summon Monster 9 as a Standard Action.
2)Transmogrify - This spell allows you to change your eidolon and all evolutions (even Aspects on yourself) once per day. This change is permanent until I cast this again or level up... etc.
3)Equipment. This one is actually a valid point that someone else brought up as well. However, I have already shown to have Great Saves, Plenty of AC, Lots of Hitpoints (and the ability to swap damage with Eidolon), and the BEST damage... all within the confines of starting wealth at my level... so Gear doesn't limit me that much.
4)I don't see the Eidolon moving 10,000ft away as a realistic problem. Also, I can cast a spell on him that allows him to do this no problem. Unfetter
5)3/4 BAB is actually just pretty nice. Also, 3/4 attack bonus doesn't matter much to me when I get 14 secondary attacks that all go at my best attack bonus.
Would you rather have 1 more attack at +5, or 14 more attacks equal to a FIghters second iterative? Even so, I get an enormous strength bonus which offsets the +5.
6)James keeps mocking me, telling me that I don't know what I am talking about (without adding substance to his arguments). He then seems to fall back on how I should stick to level 10 as I don't have experience with level 20. THAT has gotten old.
<snip a lot of text>
Here's the issue. You've picked a level 20 character out of the ether and said 'this has broken the game'. However, a level 20 full caster has 9th level spells. All level 20 full casters have broken the game.
A summoner plucked out of thin air and built at level 20 might very well beat all martial characters at their game at level 20, when they too are plucked out of thin air and built. But most games don't start at level 20... again, by the mid-high levels, pretty much every GM acknowledges that Martials are no longer keeping up properly with the full casters, and in real games this means lots of Artifact Swords and Plot Armors and Unobtanium Amulets for the fighter types.
So, building 'arena death builds' at level 20 has very little real world application. This is why many people are encouraging you to explore the power curve at level 1, level 5, level 10, level 15. This will compare the summoner/eidolon to martial characters in more 'real' situations.
Now, if you are playing level 20 arena games, then fine. What I'd like to see personally (and heck, maybe I'll bother to do it if I'm bored) is a fighter and a summoner/eidolon built with equivalent levels of CharOp through all 20 levels, just to see where the gap shows up and if it keeps getting worse or if it wavers back and forth.
1) Level 20 Games happen.
2) Above Level 20 games will eventually happen (Epic levels people!)
3) Most good players will work out a build and get Feats at certain level to complete that build... So this is as much about people starting at level 20 as people reaching level 20.
4) I OBVIOUSLY do not think that other casters break the game. They don't.... they are powerful, but they do not step on other players toes. The party which I playtested the summoner with was made up of all casters at level 20 (Sorcerer,Conjuration Wizard,Battle Oracle, and Summoner). My summoner took over every battle to the extreme.
Before you start flaming, these were NOT bad players and they were playing great builds. I didn't even have this Summoner build, I had a lesser one and it was still rocking. We all agreed that is was making the other classes obsolete.
4) I OBVIOUSLY do not think that other casters break the game. They don't.... they are powerful, but they do not step on other players toes. The party which I playtested the summoner with was made up of all casters at level 20 (Sorcerer,Conjuration Wizard,Battle Oracle, and Summoner). My summoner took over every battle to the extreme.
Not to be rude, but DUH.
Sorry, but... you're comparing a summoner's martial prowess to a Sorcerer, Conjuration Wizard, and Battle Oracle?!! Of course he's going to outshine them. The only one that should be close is the Battle Oracle. The rest are going to SUCK at melee type combat.
If you wanted to compare them to something that already exists, you should have had a Level 20 druid with an Animal Companion/Melee build.
At level 20, a Druid with a Tiger companion who's built for melee usually blows an eidelon/summoner out of the water.
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6)James keeps mocking me, telling me that I don't know what I am talking about (without adding substance to his arguments). He then seems to fall back on how I should stick to level 10 as I don't have experience with level 20. THAT has gotten old.
I really don't see how he was mocking you. It actually looked like he was making an assumption based on your posts. But if mocking someone makes someone a troll, you should be afraid of fire and acid...
Seriously, do how do you guys even play this game with some of the questions you are asking?
If you wanted to compare them to something that already exists, you should have had a Level 20 druid with an Animal Companion/Melee build.At level 20, a Druid with a Tiger companion who's built for melee usually blows an eidelon/summoner out of the water.
I would actually like to see this. Would a lvl 20 druid with a tiger companion actually be better at melee? I do not doubt that overall he would be better as he will still have 9th lvl spells while dicking around as a melee character. The tiger companion is not going to be equivalent to a eidolon for sure. You could animal growth the tiger but 12 bab vs 15 vs, weaker abilities and fewer attacks makes that one easy to guess. And then it would be twin eidolon vs wild shape or perhaps you are casting shapechange. Is this a real opinion?
Personally, if there was enough space for us to be roaming around as gargantuan creatures, I would think man there is enough space for my 20th lvl druid to create a tornado class storm and wreck everybody. Why even waste effort on melee.
You're missing the big advantage the tiger has over the eidelon.
You can put equipment on the tiger and still equip the druid.
That means your tiger can be wearing a modified harness to gain +6 to all physical stats, barding, amulet of mighty fists, etc. Yes you're splitting your wbl. However, the druid can take craft wondrous item and make most of his equipment and save a few gold on the build to counteract that. A fully kitted out tiger with the right magic equipment is usually a great match for an eidelon, and is a terror in combat. Add onto that buffs from the druid, direct damage druid spells, and you get some really nasty combinations. Add in wildshape and natural spell and the right equipment, and you get a druid who's uber nasty flanking with a tiger who's kitted out and nasty as well. Which is a very good match for the level 20 summoner ability to emulate his eidelon for a limited time each day.
1) Level 20 Games happen.
2) Above Level 20 games will eventually happen (Epic levels people!)
3) Most good players will work out a build and get Feats at certain level to complete that build... So this is as much about people starting at level 20 as people reaching level 20.
4) I OBVIOUSLY do not think that other casters break the game. They don't.... they are powerful, but they do not step on other players toes. The party which I playtested the summoner with was made up of all casters at level 20 (Sorcerer,Conjuration Wizard,Battle Oracle, and Summoner). My summoner took over every battle to the extreme.
Before you start flaming, these were NOT bad players and they were playing great builds. I didn't even have this Summoner build, I had a lesser one and it was still rocking. We all agreed that is was making the other classes obsolete.
5) I am a HUGE fan of martial classes, with the Fighter being my favorite (Paladin 2nd fav). They are very viable at high level... but now that the Summoner is in Twin Eidolon... not anymore.
@MDT
I AM NOT ONLY LOOKING AT MELEE DAMAGE.. DUHHHH. I am looking at how the entire encounter was dominated by the summoner (whether the players threw spells, timestopped, buffed, or summoned monsters.)
Also, I have proven over and over in this thread that the summoner has outdamaged other builds by a significant amount. Please... put forth a top notch build and give me an AC and we can show how overpowered the Summoner is even moreso.
If you wanted to compare them to something that already exists, you should have had a Level 20 druid with an Animal Companion/Melee build.At level 20, a Druid with a Tiger companion who's built for melee usually blows an eidelon/summoner out of the water.
I would actually like to see this. Would a lvl 20 druid with a tiger companion actually be better at melee? I do not doubt that overall he would be better as he will still have 9th lvl spells while dicking around as a melee character. The tiger companion is not going to be equivalent to a eidolon for sure. You could animal growth the tiger but 12 bab vs 15 vs, weaker abilities and fewer attacks makes that one easy to guess. And then it would be twin eidolon vs wild shape or perhaps you are casting shapechange. Is this a real opinion?
Personally, if there was enough space for us to be roaming around as gargantuan creatures, I would think man there is enough space for my 20th lvl druid to create a tornado class storm and wreck everybody. Why even waste effort on melee.
You're missing the big advantage the tiger has over the eidelon.
You can put equipment on the tiger and still equip the druid.
That means your tiger can be wearing a modified harness to gain +6 to all physical stats, barding, amulet of mighty fists, etc. Yes you're splitting your wbl. However, the druid can take craft wondrous item and make most of his equipment and save a few gold on the build to counteract that. A fully kitted out tiger with the right magic equipment is usually a great match for an eidelon, and is a terror in combat. Add onto that buffs from the druid, direct damage druid spells, and you get some really nasty combinations. Add in wildshape and natural spell and the right equipment, and you get a druid who's uber nasty flanking with a tiger who's kitted out and nasty as well. Which is a very good match for the level 20 summoner ability to emulate his eidelon for a limited time each day.
Jason Buhlmann wrote this on Eidolon's in another thread:
They suffer the normal penalties for wielding more than one weapon, regardless of the number of arms they possess. Eidolons cannot wear armor, due to their shifting form, but those that take the proper feat can use a shield. Eidolons can use some magic items. Each eidolon can wear up to two rings, if it has the limbs (arms) evolution. Each eidolon can wear a single magic item in the following slots: eyes, head, neck, and shoulders. An eidolon with the limbs (arms) evolution or the tentacle evolution can drink potions.I have not bothered to put items on my Eidolon, but I could.
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mdt was pointing out the difference between a druid and his animal companion and a summoner and his eidolon: Eidolons and their Summoners have to share item slots.
If the eidolon is wearing a ring, then the summoner can only use one ring. If the eidolon is wearing two rings, then the summoner cannot use magical rings, and vice versa.
Druids and their animal companions do not have this limitation.
Jason Buhlmann wrote this on Eidolon's in another thread:
They suffer the normal penalties for wielding more than one weapon, regardless of the number of arms they possess. Eidolons cannot wear armor, due to their shifting form, but those that take the proper feat can use a shield. Eidolons can use some magic items. Each eidolon can wear up to two rings, if it has the limbs (arms) evolution. Each eidolon can wear a single magic item in the following slots: eyes, head, neck, and shoulders. An eidolon with the limbs (arms) evolution or the tentacle evolution can drink potions.I have not bothered to put items on my Eidolon, but I could.
If you check, I think you'll find that that was for the playtest. Not the final APG version.
Link (Ex): A summoner and his eidolon share a mental link allows for communication across any distance (as long as they are on the same plane). This communication is a free action, allowing the summoner to give orders to his eidolon at any time. In addition, magic items interfere with the summoner's connection to his eidolon. As a result, the summoner and his eidolon share magic item slots. For example, if the summoner is wearing a ring, his eidolon can wear no more than one ring. In case of a conflict, the items worn by the summoner remain active, and those used by the eidolon become dormant. The eidolon must possess the appropriate appendages to utilize a magic item.
This was my point above, this limitation does not apply to a druid's animal companion.
As to building a hyper uber combat model of druid at level 20, sorry, I don't have the 3 hours to spend on combing through and doing it. I don't build intentionally broken builds, it literally takes me hours to work out how to break things, since I have always built things to be balanced. Every build I've ever posted on here has been mocked as 'not optimized' enough for the min/max crowd. If you want an optimized druid build at level 20, I suggest going over to Treantmonks guide thread, he has quite a few optimized builds over there.
I'm sure someone who has more time can do a better job at min/maxing a druid and animal companion into a borked game breaking build than I can.
I see. Thanks. I don't really need any items on my Eidolon except weapons though.
Please, build your level 20 druid and lets see how it matches against the Eidolon. You can also set the AC of whatever we are going up against. I'd like to see if a summoner will outshine a druid.
I OBVIOUSLY do not think that other casters break the game. They don't.... they are powerful, but they do not step on other players toes. The party which I playtested the summoner with was made up of all casters at level 20 (Sorcerer,Conjuration Wizard,Battle Oracle, and Summoner). My summoner took over every battle to the extreme.
Ok, so you played a 4-person, level 20 game with three full casters and a Summoner, and the summoner kicked everyone's butts in the Melee portion of the proceedings, and you're surprised?
First off, you're not playing Pathfinder-only if you have a Battle Oracle, secondly, you're doing weird things with Aspect and Defending weapons Idon't think should work, and thirdly, I have no idea what you were fighting at level 20 that three full casters felt out-fought by a single Summoner/Eidolon.
Also, I again posit that starting at level 20 is a little silly, but I'll work on this challenge, and try to build a couple of characters that I think can match up to a level 20 Summoner vs standard level 20 foes. Give me a few hours. I'm thinking both an Archer Paladin and a Druid can make the Eidolon/Summoner combo look less than amazing.
Ok, so you played a 4-person, level 20 game with three full casters and a Summoner, and the summoner kicked everyone's butts in the Melee portion of the proceedings, and you're surprised?
Just stop and listen to what I am saying. ITS NOT JUST ABOUT THE MELEE... it's about stealing the spotlight of encounter after encounter. It's about straight up damage, not wether that damage was done by a melee or a ranged. The Summoner is overpowered, I can rock it out at range as well by simply teleporting my Eidolon right next to things far away.
First off, you're not playing Pathfinder-only if you have a Battle Oracle, secondly, you're doing weird things with Aspect and Defending weapons Idon't think should work, and thirdly, I have no idea what you were fighting at level 20 that three full casters felt out-fought by a single Summoner/Eidolon.
1) YEs... the Advanced Players Guide is a Pathfinder book where you will find the Battle Revelation Oracle.
2)There is nothing wierd being done with aspect. Read the rules and understand them. I lose my natural attacks but retain all class features. In other words, I lose my humanoid forms natural attacks, but retain ANYTHING ANYTHING ANYTHING gained by class features (including Aspects)
3)The defending weapons have nothing to do with what makes the Summoner/Eidolon overpowered. I happen to think that something that says "This bonus stacks with all other bonuses" means what it says.
4) Whoever said we were fighting a single level 20? It was multiple CR 20s...
Also, I again posit that starting at level 20 is a little silly, but I'll work on this challenge, and try to build a couple of characters that I think can match up to a level 20 Summoner vs standard level 20 foes. Give me a few hours. I'm thinking both an Archer Paladin and a Druid can make the Eidolon/Summoner combo look less than amazing.
Thanks, Please min max it out, that way there will be no question in your mind that the Summoner is overpowered.
I've played the Game from 1st-4th and 20th.
I've GMed from 1st-13th.
I've DMed many 3.x games 1st-30th
I've played 3.x games 1st-20th.
STOP ASKING IRRELEVENT QUESTIONS! I've played the game. I've DMed the game. I've read the books. I've played and GMed many other systems as well! I understand that everyone gets more powerful at level 20!!
That doesn't stop the summoner from being broken. None of that does. This isn't a thread about "Melee" damage vs "ranged" damage... it's just about DAMAGE straight up... the ability to overpower and outshine other classes in Adapatability, Survivability, and Damage Per Round.
Please, James... create a character... put him here in the same way that I have posted the Summoner and Eidolon. Then we can compare classes...
PS: I didn't say ANYTHING about picking up weapons of the ground! Where did you even READ THAT!? I posted previously that I would store my weapons in "extradimensional space" equipment... or on my mount (the eidolon) or have squires carry them.
There's this cool item called Metamagic Rod of Quicken (lesser) and this cool spell summoners get at 3rd level called dimension door. Why does everyone assume you need to walk up to something to whack the daylights out of it?
I removed a post and the replies to it. Flag it and move on, folks.
I've played the Game from 1st-4th and 20th.
I've GMed from 1st-13th.
I've DMed many 3.x games 1st-30th
I've played 3.x games 1st-20th.STOP ASKING IRRELEVENT QUESTIONS!
Yelling and screaming doesn't encourage anyone to discuss this with you.
Just saying.
Oh, that wasn't my aim...
I was trying to discourage him from asking irrelevent questions, see...
*points to all caps statement*
Oh, that wasn't my aim...
I was trying to discourage him from asking irrelevent questions, see...*points to all caps statement*
That was my point. I'm assuming you didn't realize at this point, but, all caps is seen as shouting in internet ettiquette.
That was my point. I'm assuming you didn't realize at this point, but, all caps is seen as shouting in internet ettiquette.
I think what he's saying is he doesn't mind discouraging irrelevant questions.
Ok, Level 20 Paladin.
Initial Stats (20 point buy):
13/15/15/7/10/15
At level 20, with Belt of Physical Perfection, headband of Mental Prowess
20/22/22/8/16/22
Skills/traits: inconsequential
Other items:
cloak of resistance +5
amulet of natural armor +5,
+5 holy, merciful, frost, thundering mighty longbow
+5 mithril heavy fort full plate
+5 ring of protection
ring of freedom of movement
HP: 280 (max hp 1st level, average thereafter)
AC: 37 (42 vs smite target)
DR/10 evil
Immune to fear, disease, charms, compulsions (spells and spell-like abilities)
Saves: Fort +28, Ref +22, Will +25
Feats of note: Weapon Focus (longbow), point-blank shot, rapid shot, many shot, deadly aim, precise shot, improved precise shot, pinpoint targeting, toughness
Full Attack with Bow: 4 iterative attacks, plus manyshot and rapid fire
Bow is +33 to hit, +31 when firing with deadly aim, rapid fire, and a smite target for the following attack routine:
+31 (two hits)/+31/+26/+21/+16
Damage for a hit is 1d8+5d6+35 vs smite target, +55 on the first hit if it's an evil outsider, undead, or dragon.
The paladin also has a magical beast as a companion that is equivalent to a druid's companion except it's celestial (so it can smite evil) and has SR 31 and a couple hundred grand of wealth left over to equip it. I haven't gotten to that yet.
In addition, the paladin can heal self for 10d6 every round 16 times per day, removing shaken, staggered, poisioned, exhausted, blinded, and stunned (or other mercies, these may not be ideal).
In addition, the paladin has 1-4th level cleric spells, which would primarily be used for long-term buffs, increasing combat potential, like greater magic weapon on ammunition, and various long-term self buffs.
This is my starting point, work has been busy, so I'm not to the optimization point yet, sadly. I need to pick up a couple more feats, build the divine bond mount, figure out optimal spell selection and reasonable buffing, etc.
That was my point. I'm assuming you didn't realize at this point, but, all caps is seen as shouting in internet ettiquette.I think what he's saying is he doesn't mind discouraging irrelevant questions.
I think what I was saying is that the way he did it discourages people from contributing at all.
I must say, 10 000 feet away is reaaaally circumstantial. Also, 3/4 BAB isn't really a weakness, it's just lack of a strength. The others I agree with though, especially sleep. That's a huge frakkin weakness.
- "If the eidolon is more than 10,000 feet away, it is immediately returned to its home plane.- 3/4 BAB
It is circumstantial, until you teleport or plane shift, which is something you do at 20th level. And if you're going to melee, 3/4 bab matters when you are comparing directly with full BAB.
But I would agree those are far lesser to the others.
Psst, Maze one of them away. No save. Heck Maze both of them away. Summon an army, cast time stop when they get back, and then hide behind CR18+ meat shields that are buffed.
I see. Thanks. I don't really need any items on my Eidolon except weapons though.
Please, build your level 20 druid and lets see how it matches against the Eidolon. You can also set the AC of whatever we are going up against. I'd like to see if a summoner will outshine a druid.
I don't know how long you have been on the boards but saying something happened does not go over well. You will need to post a battle description.
I've played the Game from 1st-4th and 20th.
I've GMed from 1st-13th.
I've DMed many 3.x games 1st-30th
I've played 3.x games 1st-20th.STOP ASKING IRRELEVENT QUESTIONS! I've played the game. I've DMed the game. I've read the books. I've played and GMed many other systems as well! I understand that everyone gets more powerful at level 20!!
That doesn't stop the summoner from being broken. None of that does. This isn't a thread about "Melee" damage vs "ranged" damage... it's just about DAMAGE straight up... the ability to overpower and outshine other classes in Adapatability, Survivability, and Damage Per Round.
Please, James... create a character... put him here in the same way that I have posted the Summoner and Eidolon. Then we can compare classes...
PS: I didn't say ANYTHING about picking up weapons of the ground! Where did you even READ THAT!? I posted previously that I would store my weapons in "extradimensional space" equipment... or on my mount (the eidolon) or have squires carry them.
The most important factor in a class's power is playing style and DM'ing style. We just had another poster saying fighters were overpowered. I have seen post with overpowered monks. Often the result is the OP admitting some house rule or group preference is the culprit.
There's this cool item called Metamagic Rod of Quicken (lesser) and this cool spell summoners get at 3rd level called dimension door. Why does everyone assume you need to walk up to something to whack the daylights out of it?
The spell does not allow for attacks after it is cast*, and if any monster stand in front of an Eidolon or fighter to receive a full round attack that is just bad DM'ing.
*"After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn."
And this is why having SR at high levels is so important. Being completely defenseless sucks. Of course, a summoner is likely to just plane shift or summon his eidolon while in the maze and then bring his eidolon with him while plane shifting. They don't even have to come back to where you are.
Psst, Maze one of them away. No save. Heck Maze both of them away. Summon an army, cast time stop when they get back, and then hide behind CR18+ meat shields that are buffed.
Once he is mazed he is past the maximun distance. You are right they don't have to come back, but most players will or their party will be upset for being abandoned.
PS:I do realize the eidolon can use the summon eidolon spell to bring the eidolon back since the class feature has been used for the day, but a simple dismissal or banishment spell takes care of that.
This is not an arena dueling battle thread.
However, if I was in a maze, I would simply stay in it and wait. Holding my action until I got out, gaining the initiative.
Or I could buff and attempt to come out at a random interval... say... waiting 7.2 minutes. many spells would be wasted guessing when I was coming out.
Maze would only serve to slow down the fight... it's not especially dangerous or troublesome.
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** spoiler omitted **
1)2nd Level Spell, Summon Eidolon. Takes 1 round. Or perhaps I can cast Summon Monster 9 as a Standard Action.
2)Transmogrify - This spell allows you to change your eidolon and all evolutions (even Aspects on yourself) once per day. This change is permanent until I cast this again or level up... etc.
3)Equipment. This one is actually a valid point that someone else brought up as well. However, I have already shown to have Great Saves, Plenty of AC, Lots of Hitpoints (and the ability to swap damage with Eidolon), and the BEST damage... all within the confines of starting wealth...
1) http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/summon-eidolon
"You open a rift between dimensions that summons your eidolon.
Treat this as if you had summoned your eidolon normally, except that it only remains with you for the duration of this spell.While summoned in this way, your eidolon cannot touch any creature warded by protection from evil or a similar effect and your eidolon can be sent back to its home plane by dispel magic.
2. Once a day, 1000 gold pieces, 4th level spell, which you don't even get until 10th.
3. Lets assume the 14 weapon things is legit. Now you have to buy 14 weapons, with appropriate enhancement, as at 20th most everything has damage reduction of some kind, so you need at least a +1 enhancement to do much of any damage, and frankly with only 3/4 bab that +1 to hit isn't much at all.
So how much damage is a single attack doing at what base attack, overcoming what damage reduction with how much spent on each weapon. If I have DR/10 (very reasonable at 20th level) what do I care if you have 14 attacks that don't do any damage, even if they hit?
4. Unfetter means you lose your life link.
3. Lets assume the 14 weapon things is legit. Now you have to buy 14 weapons, with appropriate enhancement, as at 20th most everything has damage reduction of some kind, so you need at least a +1 enhancement to do much of any damage, and frankly with only 3/4 bab that +1 to hit isn't much at all.So how much damage is a single attack doing at what base attack, overcoming what damage reduction with how much spent on each weapon. If I have DR/10 (very reasonable at 20th level) what do I care if you have 14 attacks that don't do any damage, even if they hit?
Worse than that. Your glass cannon 14 attack monster with 14 +1 swords loses all his swords when he get's banished or goes poof because you got shunted to another dimension for one round. Upon returning, he has lost a bunch of his power output, and provokes AoO to pick them back up and re-equip. And he can't pick up a weapon and attack with the one's he's already picked up in the same round. Sounds like shredder time to me.
Or you're spending all your evo points on attacks and limbs, but there's a limit to those hard-wired in, so the glass cannon becomes a glass scatter gun.
And this is why having SR at high levels is so important. Being completely defenseless sucks. Of course, a summoner is likely to just plane shift or summon his eidolon while in the maze and then bring his eidolon with him while plane shifting. They don't even have to come back to where you are.
Psst, Maze one of them away. No save. Heck Maze both of them away. Summon an army, cast time stop when they get back, and then hide behind CR18+ meat shields that are buffed.
Once he is mazed he is past the maximun distance. You are right they don't have to come back, but most players will or their party will be upset for being abandoned.
PS:I do realize the eidolon can use the summon eidolon spell to bring the eidolon back since the class feature has been used for the day, but a simple dismissal or banishment spell takes care of that.
Which is why, I am of the opinion that SR is a supremely important option for summoner's and their pet. This is directed more at people who think SR is bad because it makes mid combat healing difficult. Healing is a smaller loss than the gain of protection against no save spells and save or horrible effect spells that also allow for SR.
I didn't realize you had turned it into a party event. I thought you were describing the wizard's 1v1 duel with said summoner. There is no way a wizard would waste 2 rounds on 1 character in a party fight. Especially if he is basically just trading a lvl 8 maze slot for a summoner's lvl 5 plane shift slot and both of them just used up a standard action.
Since we are talking of the summoner being broken I was assuming we were using actual game play issues. I do think clarifying the nature of the events is important, and if someone mazed my Eidolon or myself away I would not come back. It is not smart to fight on someone else's terms.
This is not an arena dueling battle thread.
However, if I was in a maze, I would simply stay in it and wait. Holding my action until I got out, gaining the initiative.Or I could buff and attempt to come out at a random interval... say... waiting 7.2 minutes. many spells would be wasted guessing when I was coming out.
Maze would only serve to slow down the fight... it's not especially dangerous or troublesome.
If you wait all 20 rounds the other guys will have a ridiculous number of buffs up. It is better to not even come back. You have no idea where he will be on the map of even if he will still be there. He probably just gated in a bunch of high CR monsters, and is scrying from safety. He pops back in when it is opportunistic to do so, and attempts to finish you off.
Yes this assumes he has the gold to pay all those creatures. Even if he does not you have no idea of battlefield conditions, and you are still coming in blind.
Loss of life link is not too big a deal. But does unfetter mean that being mazed doesn't cost you your eidolon? If it does, maze is not a viable attack on the summoner. It is a 1 standard action for another standard action trade.Well the first question is does the wizard attacking you have a greater arcane sight up to know whether or not the eidolon is unfettered?
If you've been able to buff 1min/level spells there are other issues for the combat.
Honestly I don't think maze is all that great an action on a summoner compared to other likely viable targets. The pet isn't all that much of a threat comparatively at 20th.
-James
We know this, but the OP doesn't. He is comparing stock monsters unbuffed to a PC which is a fight any almost any PC can win. Home games have DM's that adjust things to fit.