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I've had no experience playing Pathfinder at 20th level, but I think that there are circumstances where a CR 19 Ancient Red Dragon could kill your Summoner and his Eidolon handily.
Now, I'm not saying it's a sure thing, and I'm making a few assumptions, such as...
1. The listed dragon has Alter Self as a spell known. I believe that she would use this both to barter with humans to obtain things she wants, and to gather information. That is, she would pose as an adventurer, perhaps a human sorcerer, Teleport to a human city (also a spell known), and arrange to purchase or have crafted one or more items, parting (regretfully) with a portion of her horde to pay for them. For purposes of this post, I'm assuming that she did this for one item only.
2. As to gathering information, by appearing as someone that others can confide in without fear, she can discover some basic information about potential threats. Now I don't know how careful your Summoner has been throughout his career, but from your posts he sounds like he might be anything but subtle. In any event, he's 20th level, so he's probably quite famous. That being said, a lot of what people think they know about you may be misinformation. I'm assuming that the dragon has heard of you, and by reputation knows that you are to be taken seriously, but she doesn't know any fine details about what tactics you employ, or what specific spells you favor. Everyone who discovered that about you in past, discovered it in the last few moments of their lives. So she knows that you're a Summoner, and that you and your pet Eidolon are very dangerous.
3. I'm assuming that there is a reasonable likelihood (albeit not a certainty) that any encounter you have with the dragon will take place when she is in flight. Again, you may have prepared carefully and behaved with devious cleverness prior to the encounter to help set the battlefield (in which case your efforts might well be rewarded), but your Summoner is also very sure of himself. I'm assuming that you did not surprise the dragon, and that she was flying when encountered (most of my encounters with dragons as a player started this way, so I don't think that's a wild stretch).
4. If she sees you, and recognizes you for who you are (and let's face it, your Eidolon is pretty distinctive), she'll do the following...Cast Antimagic Field on herself. No buffs, just that spell. And just to avoid an argument over the size of an Antimagic Field that's just about exactly her size, she casts the spell using a Metamagic Rod of Widen Spell (technically, they don't have this item listed in the Core Book, but I'm assuming someone could make one, and that it would cost the same price as a MM Rod of Maximize...54,000gp, or about a third of it's hoard).
5. So she has an Antimagic Field that is 20 feet in radius, and extends about 10 feet beyond her body. I do this only to avoid an argument that she can be struck without touching the Antimagic Field since she's Gargantuan (plus, it is quite a nice trinket once you kill her).
6. What she will do next is use her 250 ft. Fly speed to drop directly on top of your Summoner. This maneuver doesn't even require a Fly check, even with her Clumsy maneuverability, as she can "descend at any angle at normal speed" per the Fly skill.
7. This maneuver will likely allow her to avoid having to go through your Eidolon to get to you. Assuming that you are in your Twin Eidolon form, contact with the Antimagic Field will instantly dispel this effect, returning you to normal form. All of your supernatural and spell-like abilities go away, which is almost all of your class features. Any spells cast on yourself go away, and any magic items will cease functioning in the field. You should probably get an attack of opportunity, though, before her bulk smacks into you from above.
8. The landing maneuver will be combined with a Crush attack (that is she will move no more than 250 feet (as a move action) and then land on you for a Crush as a standard action. If she is farther than 250 feet from you, she would take a round (or more) getting into position for this maneuver. Even if you are in your Twin Eidolon form, this will affect you, because the moment she is 10 feet from you, you'll revert you your normal (Medium) size. You'll need to succeed on a DC 30 Reflex save (with no spells or items adding to this) or be pinned beneath her. In order to maintain the pin, she'll need to succeed at a Combat Maneuver check against you (again, without access to your buffs). Her CMB is +43. Each round you're trapped beneath her, you'll take 4d6+21 damage from the weight of her body on top of you.
9. She won't bother attacking your Eidolon, she'll just ignore him. Some DMs might rule that the Antimagic Field you're in would sever the link to your Eidolon, returning him home. I don't see that written anywhere, so I'm assuming that he's still around.
10. If the Eidolon attempts to melee the dragon, he'll go away. She's unconcerned with him. Rather than use any other attacks against you or your Eidolon, she simply produces a Gargantuan emery board, and does her nails while she waits for you to expire.
11. If you dismiss your Eidolon, she may believe it's because you've died, and you may be able to Bluff her into taking a peak to see, possibly allowing you to scamper away. Her Sense Motive is +33.
12. Her Antimagic Field is active for 2 and a half hours. If you're still under her then, you're long dead.
Now, I'm not saying it would definitely play out this way, but it could. And I'm just trying to play a dragon intelligently (I don't pretend to have a 20 INT myself).
Maybe you've got a boatload of things up your sleeve that will help you avoid this. If I had been your DM through 20 levels, I'd know a lot of your tricks. This isn't to say that the dragon would, but I would certainly want to present an encounter that wasn't too much of a pushover.
As to the Summoner, this encounter aside, I would tend to agree with you that the class is quite powerful, especially once they get their capstone ability. But, I don't think that means it wouldn't be better to have an entire party backing your plays.
Anyway, that's one way in which a CR 19 Red Dragon might provide a real challenge to a high level Summoner.
for 1 anything not a PC is an NPC, these are acronyms not words. Non-player controlled is anything under DM's power
for two adding appropriate npc wealth does not adjust it at all otherwise they wouldnt add in being able to take it away to lower the CR (you cant take what your saying isn't there)
for three the CR's are based on a 15 point buy and not 20 so that further reduces CR.
Unlike most arguments, I appreciate you arguing with rules, but please take a little extra time next time to understand them.
I guess you missed my post on "my CR is not your CR", and the post on playstyles. The summoner is broken to you because you run things right out of the book as is, and the game assumes you will account for your group's playstyle and power level, among other things. If your goal is to convince us that an optomized summoner, or almost any other PC class for that matter, can take on an equal CR level opponent straight out of the book then we agreed on that a while ago.
If your goal is to get us to believe that the summoner is too much to deal with when we already have to deal with casters then you will not succeed.
Either way the thread appears to be over unless there is another point to the thread.
PS:
What if I dropped the dragon to a CR 17, and his two 18 level(CR 17) caster buddies went against your eidolon and summoner. It is still a CR 20 encounter, and I am sure after they buff Mr.Dragon he will be harder than his CR 19 counterpart. You will still have to deal with them also.
Are the two casters not allowed to use divination spells to know that you are coming? Are they not allowed to use the alarm spell are use their gold to hire guards who run screaming for help when you encounter them?
edit:I thought Ice was Matthias complaining about not running stock monsters. In any case my above point stands along with the fact that beating up on stock monsters proves nothing on the boards, except that you can beat up stock monsters which is common knowledge. Yes I know I am repeating myself, but I got nothing better to do.
Wrote a lot of stuff that seemed directed at me about how I was being stupid.
Please read back through the thread. I was not the one that chose dragons, the OP did.
A house ruled dragon is not what I was going to do. The reason I said I needed time is because I needed to sit down with the Bestiary and make sure that any Ancient Wyrms or Wyrms I did make for the OPs insistence on showing he can beat one would need to be built per the rules in the Bestiary.
May I suggest you pay attention to it when you're reading it? No wyrm or ancient wyrms are actually statted out. Those are left to the GM to stat out if they need one, which means I can't just take one from the bestiary and tweak it. I have to actually sit down with the rules and stat it out by hand. Which requires as much time as making a character, just about.
EDIT: Also, the tables for advancement of CR do not apply to dragons, who's stats/powers/etc are defined in their entry, under dragons. Specific rules trump general rules. The rules on CR advancement are general, the specific rules on dragons are based on age, not the generic advancement rules.
EDIT2 : Actually, I suppose the general rules would come into play once you've reached Ancient Wyrm stage. So if you wanted to advance an ancient Wyrm in CR, then you'd need those rules.
Take a level 15 fighter
Take a level 15 summonerGive them no buffs they can't provide themselves, give them both equal buffs.
Have them fight a CR 15, CR16, CR17, CR18 monster from the book, see which dominates the fight and provides the best role filler for the typical "fighter PC in a group" spot. If the summoner does more damage, more reliable to more of the encounters this to me could be a problem.
This test right here won't prove anything, right out of the book either class can rape whatever monster you throw at it and then do it two more times without rest. Showing what? that by the book monsters suck? if one character does 600 damage and the other does 1000, the 1000 isn't stepping on any toes because in both cases the monster is dead, initiate just decides whether the fighter or summoner gets to do it.
And AP's very frequently customize monster encounters
I guess you missed my post on "my CR is not your CR", and the post on playstyles. The summoner is broken to you because you run things right out of the book as is, and the game assumes you will account for your group's playstyle and power level, among other things.As I said, I raise the CR of the encounters when things get to easy, I don't make custom monsters and make the CR harder.
If your goal is to convince us that an optomized summoner, or almost any other PC class for that matter, can take on an equal CR level opponent straight out of the book then we agreed on that a while ago.
If your goal is to get us to believe that the summoner is too much to deal with when we already have to deal with casters then you will not succeed.
Either way the thread appears to be over unless there is another point to the thread.My goal was posted pages ago...
It's to see if the Summoner filled the role of a Fighter better than a Fighter fills that role himself. If he does, something might be wrong..
I have said all along I agree with most of what is said on both sides, it's all in how you play. I have a open mind really...
What can the fighter do in this situation? Nothing.. What could most character do in this situation? Nothing... Your creating a impossibly hard challenge that since no lone PC could defeat it is ill relevant in gauging one PC's ability to "take over" a combat or "fill a...PS:
What if I dropped the dragon to a CR 17, and his two 18 level(CR 17) caster buddies went against your eidolon and summoner. It is still a CR 20 encounter, and I am sure after they buff Mr.Dragon he will be harder than his CR 19 counterpart. You will still have to deal with them also.Are the two casters not allowed to use divination spells to know that you are coming? Are they not allowed to use the alarm spell are use their gold to hire guards who run screaming for help when you encounter them?
Everything I posted was meant for Mattias since I thought you were him, and his goal is to prove the eidolon was broken.
Take a level 15 fighter
Take a level 15 summonerGive them no buffs they can't provide themselves, give them both equal buffs.
Have them fight a CR 15, CR16, CR17, CR18 monster from the book, see which dominates the fight and provides the best role filler for the typical "fighter PC in a group" spot. If the summoner does more damage, more reliable to more of the encounters this to me could be a problem.
This test right here won't prove anything, right out of the book either class can rape whatever monster you throw at it and then do it two more times without rest. Showing what? that by the book monsters suck? if one character does 600 damage and the other does 1000, the 1000 isn't stepping on any toes because in both cases the monster is dead, initiate just decides whether the fighter or summoner gets to do it.
And AP's very frequently customize monster encounters
Exactly.. when 90% of the time a Summoner with Ed is going to have him pounce (going further/faster) and killing the monster in round 1, then this is a issue. If you use adjustable CR's up to CL+4 you will be able to see over the scale if this is a issue. If at CL2-3 the fighter gets to have fun and fill his role as well as a summoner, then who cares! But, at CL+2 or CL+4 you don't need a custom monster thats supposed to be a harder than "epic" battle, and be the same toughness as a reasonable custom CL+1 or CL+2 fight.
AP's frequently use names of custom monster, than use stats from the book, at least when I ran the whole RotRL that was how it was.
Sorry but I am not "wrong" for not using custom monsters, my players have/had fun, and I had 3 PC deaths over the campaign (not one original character made it). Not one "custom" monster was made by myself as well. Your not wrong for using custom monsters as you most likely have optimizing players, I do not.
Now I am posting towards you or however I should word it.
We are only advocating building a monster towards the group. If a group were weak we would also say play the monster down. If the group maximizes their guys as much as they can they the monsters should be done the same way, at least that is how I do it. I would never send uber-dragon against a non-optimized group. With regard to AP's the boss fights don't match the guidelines in the books a lot of the times. An endboss in one AP had more HP, +15 armor, and +10 to all the saves when the PC's walked through the door, and the only deficit was about a -5 on attack rolls but since the character was not made to depend on attack rolls it did not matter.The AP did say that if the monster was difficult for the group that the DM should power it down though.
Now I am posting towards you or however I should word it.
We are only advocating building a monster towards the group. If a group were weak we would also say play the monster down. If the group maximizes their guys as much as they can they the monsters should be done the same way, at least that is how I do it.
I understand, and thats how "most" people do it. Most of the time, I do not do this beyond fixing a dumb spell being memorized/learned (from 3.5) when it now sucks, or adding 10-15HP because getting one more round of attacks (from the badguy) in will make the battle from ok, to good. Generally I only did this when I was learning pathfinder and the AP, and again when my group changed (local gaming store closed). After that I found the "balance" in CR, held my party back story wise and then when they went forward they were being challenged.
To me this wasn't due to the optimization, as I have said I am the biggest optimizer in the group, and well I am not that great. It was due to the AP being 3.5 and the group being PFRPG.
And it's perfectly fine for you to do whatever you want in your game, and run it however you want. I'm a big believer in running your game the way that makes fun for everyone. When I run, I usually don't bother optimizing enemies. I just make the enemies something that seem about right, usually right out of the book. However, if my players are optimized out the yin-yang, then I boost the HP on the enemies to even it out some. You prefer using the CR advancement rules to adjust them. Neither method is 'wrong', they're both 'right' for that specific game.
When you post a 3 page diatribe telling someone they are wrong for not doing it your way, and saying they are not following the rules to the letter when they were, just not the way you prefer them to be used, then you end up coming off as an arrogant *#@$&*.
This makes it harder for anyone to give your posts any credence.
@Ice Deep
I was planning on comparing how I did vs the dragon vs how a fighter would do.
Level 15 won't work, Ice. I'm trying to show that the Twin Eidolon power is completely broken compared to what most other classes get.
I agree on the CR though... these guys seems to be less focused on Summoner/Eidolon discussion and more focused on "You don't play your dragons correctly" discussion... when we are only using the thing as a test dummy punching bag.
@Wraith/MDT/James
Sorry, if it's not a vanilla setting I won't do it. Of course, any DM can tweak an encounter to demolish the PCs. Doing so increases CR as Ice has pointed out.
Why don't you just ask me to start out stunned and in it's mouth.
PS:
What if I dropped the dragon to a CR 17, and his two 18 level(CR 17) caster buddies went against your eidolon and summoner. It is still a CR 20 encounter, and I am sure after they buff Mr.Dragon he will be harder than his CR 19 counterpart. You will still have to deal with them also.Are the two casters not allowed to use divination spells to know that you are coming? Are they not allowed to use the alarm spell are use their gold to hire guards who run screaming for help when you encounter them?
What can the fighter do in this situation? Nothing.. What could most character do in this situation? Nothing... Your creating a impossibly hard challenge that since no lone PC could defeat it is ill relevant in gauging one PC's ability to "take over" a combat or "fill a role better" than another PC's ability to do so.
This!!!!!! (except "ill relevant" you mean irrelevant)
The dragon is just there as a test dummy to show one optimized classes potential vs anothers.
@Wraith/MDT/JamesSorry, if it's not a vanilla setting I won't do it. Of course, any DM can tweak an encounter to demolish the PCs. Doing so increases CR as Ice has pointed out.
Why don't you just ask me to start out stunned and in it's mouth.
Because you're the one affecting the CR.
You are curving the CR downward by insisting on putting the dragon in an arena. Creature CRs are based not on arena battles where everyone starts 30 feet apart and goes to it. They are based on the creature, with appropriate wealth, and any equipment it could reasonably have as part of it's treasure.
What you're asking for is for the dragon to be completely surprised by your character, to have no access to his treasure hoard, and to be in one round of movement for your summoner and eidelon. Your entire 'I kill him in 2 rounds' is based on the fact you can surprise him and attack in the first round.
Does that sound like a GM tweak to demolish PCs if you reverse the situation? In other words, if the GM teleported your summoner, sans equipment, into an arena, and put him 30 feet from an Ancient Wyrm who had all the equipment it wanted from it's hoard and knew you were coming, and had a scroll of banishment, would you consider that a fair test of your character vs the dragon? That's pretty much what you're asking for in reverse. You want to start one move from the dragon, you want to beat his initiative, you want a class ability to copy the effects of a spell when the power doesn't say it can, and you refuse to discuss the effects of that (For example, does your twin eidelon form lose the immunity you granted with surge if surge is purged from your eidelon? If so, then doesn't that prove that you are duplicating the spell effect? If not, then how do you justify the fact that your eidelon's form and your twin form are now different?).
What we are saying is you are intentionally setting yourself up with maximum benefits in this scenario to 'prove' your contention, and we don't think it's a valid demonstration.
I am not sure if this is relevant to the discussion. but I found at lvl 9 my eidolon did not have the survivability of a fighter it basically went down every fightbor every other fight.
@MDT
Read the bolded print in my last post...
...and then reallize that the more you optimize your dragon the larger the divide will be between Summoner/Eidolon and the meatshields of the group which we are trying to compare them.
Edit:
@James
Of course it's not as broken... as a DM fixing a fight.
That's like me saying "Hello... Goliath is totally broken, he wins all fights... and our performs the Davids of the world!"
and then you say "Hello... God could grant David +27 to hit and +5000 to damage. Goliath isn't broken!"
@MDT
Read the bolded print in my last post...
...and then reallize that the more you optimize your dragon the larger the divide will be between Summoner/Eidolon and the meatshields of the group which we are trying to compare them.
I read the bolded part.
Did you bother reading my post?
There are no Wyrm/Elder Wyrm dragons in the bestiary.
The one you linked to is one created by someone. Not Paizo, not me, not you.
I did't say 'Optimized', I said 'crated by the rules'.
Again, you are asking for the dragon to be surprised, alone, without cover, without equipment, without anything.
Are you ok with me doing the same to you? Take your summoner and eidelon, take away all your equipment and put you in an arena at a random distance from each other?
Obviously, you want everything your way to prove your point. What you don't see is that your point is meaningless if you are going to optimize everything in your favor. A level 1 thief can take out a dragon if you start off with it magically asleep, because he can coup-de-gras it.
In other words, your request that the dragon be at every disadvantage you think you can get away with completely and totally invalidates your argument that the summoner is overpowered. The more you argue that you can't take him on on even footing the more you prove your own point wrong.
Dude, that makes no difference! Then use the CR 19 Red Dragon...
For the love! IT's A FRIGGIN TEST DUMMY... IT's JUST THERE TO COMPARE!!!!!!!!
You guys really take the cake....
I'm done with this thread.
Full circle.
You cannot compare anything to something it is not.
And no two things in pathfinder are exactly the same. Much less at lv20.
An apple is inferior to a rock for the purposes of breaking a window. IF you are into window-breaking, the rock makes the apple redundant.
However, a rock is inferior to an apple in terms of providing sustenance. If you are into survival and not dying from starvation, an apple is completely overpowered compared to the rock, which is completely useless as a source of nourishment.
In terms of dealing damage, yes, the summoner and his pet is superior. In terms of staying power, I am not convinced. Magic is always better, that is a truth in this game. For that reason alone, I think a summoner can provide more to a party than a fighter. Same is true with a druid. Is the druid overpowered?
I am not opening that can of worms.
And I am glad you're out, for your own sake. This kind of "discussion" is not a very useful, nor even healthy, way to spend you free time. Play a game instead, try to have fun, and if someone makes a character that stomps on someone's toes, we as human beings have the ability to go "Dude... not cool."
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The Dragon can win simply by snatching and dropping the Summoner over and over again. If Snatches uses grapple takes the summoner up to terminal velocity and drops him. Rinse and repeat. The Dragon can stay out of the Eidolon's range go off do its nails and come back. Dragons are not stupid they will pick off the Summoner its not going to waste its time entering into melee unless its forced to when it can fly by use its breath weapon or spells then come back around for another pass in a bit.
The dragon will be like oh this guy uses summoned creatures to fight for him what do I have that I can use to get rid of them so I can get at the meaty snack. Every Magic item you stuck on the Eidolon is one you can't use yourself.
Why is it everyone assumes that monsters will just let you walk up and cast spells and beat on them without actually using tactics, the terrain and the items in thier possesion?
I was simply trying to explain my point of view, I apologize if I came across as arrogant, I try to tone down that part of my personality, but it comes out. The point was to just show how i saw things, and to point out using level 20 character made things a lot tougher.
No problem. I was a bit fed up with the thread at the time too. :) These 'ZOMG it's borked' threads usually end up like this on did. When you try to pin the OP down on a specific setup, they want a setup that proves their point, but ignore the fact that their setup is broken to begin with. Usually they want three things, surprise, one move from target, and to have picked their spells for the encounter, but to use generic spells for the target's spells known.
In other words, they stack the deck in their favor, then cry foul and say it's just a test don't worry about it if you point this out. Anything that keeps the target from being fat dumb and happy when they start their uber death move is 'GM Fiat'.
That annoys me to no end. I have no problem saying something is broken if it is (personally, I feel the summoner is pretty useless as is, I ended up completely rewriting the class for my own games). But useless =/= broken.
Good post, though I still feel a actual demonstration over a variety of CR's out of the beastiary from APL+1 to APL+5 or until either the fighter, or the summoner "pulls away" even if that means APL+8 or 10, but I think that wouldn't be needed.
Actually, the CR 19 red dragon could shred his build.
If dragon wins initiative :
Quickened Grease under Eidelon
Force Wall 5 feet in front of pair.
Fly back 200 feet
Cast anti-magic field
Wait for Eidelon to get close (since it's going forward while summoner buffs), then fly up and over eidelon. Land on other side of force wall next to summoner. Summoner's buff spells go down.
Full attack Summoner. Summoner can't do any damage to the dragon due to DR (antimagic field, no magic attacks/weapons work). Eidelon is on the other side of force wall and has to run back around it while the dragon tears the summoner apart. By the time the eidelon get's back, the summoenr is going to be pretty trashed, if not dead.
If the dragon doesn't win initiative :
Fly up 100 feet (accept AoO by one attack).
Cast greater dispel on Eidelon (no more immunity, even using mathias's interpretation of surge, both lose immunity)
Cast magic missile at summoner for 8 rounds just to be a jerk about it from maximum range, laughing repeatedly (move each round to try to draw eidelon away).
If at any point in the fight your hp get's below half, cast teleport to get away. Heal with potions, teleport back and kick summoner again, now that you have warning he's there.
Actually, the CR 19 red dragon could shred his build.Summoner can't do any damage to the dragon due to DR (antimagic field, no magic attacks/weapons work).
While I agree with the first statement, the rest isn't so good.
The later is in fact wrong. In an anti-magic field DR/magic goes away entirely.
Well, Damage Reduction is either (Ex) or (Su). Dragon DR isn't specified as to which one it is. I've always taken it as (Ex) and due to extremely hard scales and hide. Obviously, you take it as (Su). I've never seen anything that said it had to be one or the other unless specified.
That said, the summoner will be back to his natural form and unable to hit the Dragon DR or no DR.The Dragon does its best to keep the summoner in it's anti-magic field, likely by crush or other form of grapple.
The Eidolon can't exist in the antimagic field, so is a moot point and not a concern.
I'm not sure that particular one is true. The eidelon is an outsider, special summoned. It's not affected by things that normally would affect a summon. Not sure that it would disappear in an anti-magic field. I think that would need an FAQ honestly. If anti-magic gets rid of the eidelon, then that's a big nerf to the class, considering the abundance of anti-magic fields in higher level dungeons.
In either case the summoner build is assuming that closing in 1 round and killing in the next is acceptable. This is wrong, for many of the above reasons.-James
100% agreement here.
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I am not an expert at high levels, but:
If it ever in it's lifetime the dragon bothered with a permanent non-detection, the scry and pop trick would not be easily effective against it. If he had bothered with the first, then a permanent see invisibility would have been also procured by the beast. So, sneaking up for that first strike seems very unlikely.
Here is a little tidbit most everyone has been missing. The dragon has twice the visual acuity range of the summoner or eidolon, and a +33 perception vs. the +18 or +24 of his enemies. So, at +1 per ten feet, then doubled that means the dragon sees his enemies at 180' before they see him. Therefore, unless there is a 1 and 20 both rolled for perception at the exact right time, I submit that dragon will always get to choose when combat starts, at what range, and what buffs it has.
Then again, the eidolon could attempt a stealth roll... ;-)
Well, Damage Reduction is either (Ex) or (Su). Dragon DR isn't specified as to which one it is.
It depends upon what bypasses the DR. Magic and alignment DRs are SU, material DRs are Ex.
I think that this was clear in 3.5, not sure if it became obfuscated in Pathfinder or not (I haven't looked it up, rather assumed things had not changed too much).
I can't find any rule that states that though, in either 3.5 or PF. Most creatures that have DR don't have any spec for it. So it's kind of gray.
I'm not sure that particular one is true. The eidelon is an outsider, special summoned. It's not affected by things that normally would affect a summon. Not sure that it would disappear in an anti-magic field.Well I agree with you that they made the summoner class so full of exceptions that you do wonder what normal rules apply.
However in this case, I would treat them as a summoned creature just as I would for dismissal and the like. They have exceptions for protection from alignment spells and for dispel magic, but since they are still summoned creatures they should be treated as such elsewhere. But you are right that they have made something so full of exceptions that they need to rule on the normal rules applying to them now..
-James
It's the dispel that makes me wonder if it should be immune to anti-magic field. Any spells or su abilities should go away (like elemental attacks, magic weapons, etc), but I think it's body should still be usable as is (straight natural attacks).
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The Eidolon can't exist in the antimagic field, so is a moot point and not a concern.
I'm not sure that particular one is true. The eidelon is an outsider, special summoned. It's not affected by things that normally would affect a summon. Not sure that it would disappear in an anti-magic field. I think that would need an FAQ honestly. If anti-magic gets rid of the eidelon, then that's a big nerf to the class, considering the abundance of anti-magic fields in higher level dungeons.
Actually, the APG says the eidolon would disappear.
"Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score. In addition, due to its tie to its summoner, an eidolon can touch or attack creatures warded by protection from evil and similar effects that prevent contact with summoned creatures".
The rules specify in what ways an eidolon is treated differently than a summoned creature. There's no mention of immunity to antimagic fields, so they they react precisely as any other summoned creature when they encounter one.
3.5 stuff
Ah, I'm assuming you meant FAQ and not SRD? Since I didn't find that on the SRD, and it looks like an FAQ entry.
Ok, fair enough. I'll apply it that way until Paizo comes out with a different example.
3 things to run by you guys.
1. the huge eidolon does not completely disappear. Any part outside the antimagic field is unaffected. Furthermore, if an eidolon with SR gets into melee range before the antimagic field goes off, the dragon has to make a caster level check to make the eidolon disappear.
The eidelon isn't a whif of smoke that can be partially removed. He's a whole entity, if he goes is affected by anti-magic, then he's gone. Y
I'd have to read up on the anti-magic and such in more detail to answer the other question, with regards to S/R.
2. By level 20, can't a summoner can use his gate spell like ability to call over his eidolon? If antimagic field is so scary he should just bring in his eidolon this way.
Only the most idiotic summoner in the world would ever do this. A gated creature that is killed is killed permanently. So one bad fight and his eidelon is gone forever.
1. It says in the last line of antimagic field, should the creature be larger than the area enclosed in the antimagic field, any part outside the field is unaffected.
2. Could you with gate call your type of eidolon?(perhaps these suckers are lined up in rows somewhere) Gate allows you to bring in a type of creature.
1) That's only for things like DR/Magic, outside the field, the creature's DR still works. Inside, it doesn't. Same for magical armor and weapons. For something that is dismissed by anti-magic, it's all or nothing. Sort of like being pregnant, you either are or you aren't, you're not sort of pregnant around the belly area only. :)
2) The eidelon is a specific unique creature. Not one of hundreds like it. If it dies from gating, it's gone.
1. on the antimagic field, I think you are drawing conclusions that are very specific. It does not claim to be only those things. It could be that the parts of the eidolon inside the field disappear(wonder if the summon would bleed out).
2. for gate, the eidolon's have a home plane. I does not say they are unique. I just think that the rules are a bit blank on this idea. They are not really for or against gating an eidolon that is like your but not exactly yours. In this case, I do not believe the phrase, "If the rules don't say you can't, then you can..." In this case, I suspect the rules just say nothing(it would require dm arbitration to make it happen or for paizo to expand the rules to consider this situation). It would be funny for a dm to let you pull some random person's eidolon over only to have it die. A week or 2 later you meet an insane summoner npc who has the equivalent of his very real imaginary friend.
1. if you make half a creature disappear then the corresponding damage will kill it, so having part remain is moot anyway.
2. you can't gate other summoners edilions. or do you want you DM to tell you "oh sorry your edilion was gated to someone else a min ago"
1. on the antimagic field, I think you are drawing conclusions that are very specific. It does not claim to be only those things. It could be that the parts of the eidolon inside the field disappear(wonder if the summon would bleed out).
2. for gate, the eidolon's have a home plane. I does not say they are unique. I just think that the rules are a bit blank on this idea. They are not really for or against gating an eidolon that is like your but not exactly yours. In this case, I do not believe the phrase, "If the rules don't say you can't, then you can..." In this case, I suspect the rules just say nothing(it would require dm arbitration to make it happen or for paizo to expand the rules to consider this situation). It would be funny for a dm to let you pull some random person's eidolon over only to have it die. A week or 2 later you meet an insane summoner npc who has the equivalent of his very real imaginary friend.
1) Since there is nothing in the rules, anywhere, to suggest that any creature anywhere can be 'partially banished', only fully banished (any discussion of banishment discusses banishing the creature, not it's left arm), I think I'm safe on saying it's all or nothing. If you can point to any rule anywhere in PF or even 3.5 that talks about banishing part of a summoned creature but not the entire creature, I'll listen. Otherwise, I consider this one closed, and you can house rule it however you want.
2)
Eidolon: A summoner begins play with the ability to summon to his side a powerful outsider called an eidolon. The eidolon forms a link with the summoner, who, forever after, summons an aspect of the same creature.
An aspect of the same creature. So, one of these two things apply :
Either you can't gate in an Eidelon at all (since it's not an actual creature, just an aspect of a creature), or you have to gate in the creature that it's an aspect of. If the former, spell wasted. If the latter, summoning your eidelon's master creature would result in untold circumstances. And if it's killed, your eidelon is gone forever (as an aspect can't exist if the base outsider is dead).
As to summoning someone elses eidelon, same two things apply. I'd say that the outsider of an Eidelon is a unique creature (since it's got an aspect in the real world). So it would likely be uncontrolled. And even if it wasn't, I guarantee the base eidelon outsider has more than 20 HD. It probably has more than 200 HD, and you have no chance of controlling it. Since you're summoning 'Eidelon core entity' you might get a Chaotic Evil one that would ruin your day. :)
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1. on the antimagic field, I think you are drawing conclusions that are very specific. It does not claim to be only those things. It could be that the parts of the eidolon inside the field disappear(wonder if the summon would bleed out).
The eidolon wouldn't bleed out, since he's supposed to reappear once the antimagic field goes away or moves away from the eidolon. I'd have to believe that the eidolon would blink out, but he's not being dismissed. He winks out, only to reappear once the antimagic field is no longer in effect. By the way, would you rule that a Medium sized summon who sticks his arm in an antimagic field has it severed, and is waving around a bloody stump? No, he winks out while the field is present, and returns after it's gone (unless the duration on the summon has expired). That's why if I'm surrounded in an antimagic field, an eidolon can't harm me, unless...
...you are correct about spell resistance. If an eidolon has spell resistance on it, the caster of the antimagic field needs to overcome this. This is mentioned specifically in the text of antimagic field. Of course, it's hard to get really good spell resistance through an item. If the 20th level summoner is part of an adventuring party, he and his eidolon might have access to SR 32 from their friend, the 20th level cleric or oracle. A lone summoner who shuns a party won't have spell resistance on his spell list.
In any event, in the absence of spell resistance, any intelligent caster isn't going to go after the eidolon when he's surrounded by an antimagic field. He's going to go after the summoner. Whether he winks out or not, the eidolon can't lay a claw on you. The summoner in an antimagic field is shut down, losing virtually all class abilities, including his capstone Twin Eidolon, and all spellcasting. If you're far more capable in melee than an unbuffed summoner (like, if you're a dragon, for instance), you pin the summoner and kill him.
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1) Since there is nothing in the rules, anywhere, to suggest that any creature anywhere can be 'partially banished', only fully banished (any discussion of banishment discusses banishing the creature, not it's left arm), I think I'm safe on saying it's all or nothing. If you can point to any rule anywhere in PF or even 3.5 that talks about banishing part of a summoned creature but not the entire creature, I'll listen. Otherwise, I consider this one closed, and you can house rule it however you want.
I agree with everything you've written here, except...
A summoned creature or eidolon is not banished in an antimagic field. It's suppressed until the effect is removed. And yes, I would have to agree that the entire creature is suppressed.
Now for real eidolon/summoner issue of antimagic field. It is called... a reach weapon(or reach/lunged regular weapons). Since a dragon basically kills his armor class by casting the field, it is pretty likely that an eidolon/summoner pounce wielding multiple reach weapons or with reach/lunged manufactured weapons might deal near lethal damage.
I see where you were going with this but the dragon just has to move by the edilion on his way to the summoner and it blinks out and drops everything it is carrying. which is a move action a piece to pick up
I see where you were going with this but the dragon just has to move by the edilion on his way to the summoner and it blinks out and drops everything it is carrying. which is a move action a piece to pick up
Now for real eidolon/summoner issue of antimagic field. It is called... a reach weapon(or reach/lunged regular weapons). Since a dragon basically kills his armor class by casting the field, it is pretty likely that an eidolon/summoner pounce wielding multiple reach weapons or with reach/lunged manufactured weapons might deal near lethal damage.
Not only that, but I fail to see how he's 'killing his AC'. Natural Armor is (Ex), not Su. The only thing he'd lose is DR. Since he's canceling the eidelon, and negating the dual eidelon Su ability, thus leaving him to shred a human caster in light armor with low hit points and even lower AC, I don't think that's a problem.