What is the reduction price percentage when you craft a magic item that requires the user to be of a specific race to use?
Let's say you must be a dwarf to use the cool ring of defense i crafted, how much discount do i get for that? (also where can i find that in the books because i can't seem to find it in the corebook).
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What is the reduction price percentage when you craft a magic item that requires the user to be of a specific race to use?
Let's say you must be a dwarf to use the cool ring of defense i crafted, how much discount do i get for that? (also where can i find that in the books because i can't seem to find it in the corebook).
I haven't seen that one in the books either, only alignment and class. Seems like a DM decision, but in my mind I can't see why the reduction should be any different. Requires skill is a -10%, race is much more restrictive and on par with the two above, i.e. -30% should be in the ballpark...
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You need to be careful before applying discounts like that, else you end up letting in nonsense like
'Can only be used by dwarves, who are fighters, from Stonefist clan, named Snorri Snowbeard, if they have...ummm...let's see...dumdedum...what skills has he got....Aha!....5 ranks in Intimidate.".
'Right, so that knocks the price down to 70% to the power 5, or 0.7x0.7x0.7x0.7x0.7=0.16807x100%= 16.8% normal cost!
WooHoo!'
These aspects either aren't a drawback at all, or they make the item useless to you, so you wouldn't be buying it at all.
Snorter's right.
I'm not a fan of the Item Creation Feats to begin with, but having PCs get reductions in crafting for restrictions on class and race is entering realm of ridiculous.
Wouldn't allow it.
Snorter's right.
I'm not a fan of the Item Creation Feats to begin with, but having PCs get reductions in crafting for restrictions on class and race is entering realm of ridiculous.
Wouldn't allow it.
I understand your opinion although i don't agree with you.
Anyway i asked if there was anything RAW about race, because it is mentioned elsewhere in the book that magic items could be restricted to race but in the magic item creation section doesn't say anything about race.Another question, when you get 10% discount for requiring specific skill to use, what does this mean? having the skill as a class skill? having a specific amount of ranks in that skill? maybe a skill check?
On a side note our GM is willing to give a reduction that varies in %. However you roll a d10 1,2= Dwarf 3,4= Elf 5,6= Gnome 7,8= Halfling and 9,10= Human.
So when making an item and getting the reduction there is a chance it will not be useful, or at least not to your char. In this situation most chars just don't take the reduction ;).
Edit: You can add more races of course (like Orc) and change the dice you roll. Also don't add half-elf or half-orc because they can use Human/Elf and Human/Orc.
On a side note our GM is willing to give a reduction that varies in %. However you roll a d10 1,2= Dwarf 3,4= Elf 5,6= Gnome 7,8= Halfling and 9,10= Human.
So when making an item and getting the reduction there is a chance it will not be useful, or at least not to your char. In this situation most chars just don't take the reduction ;).
Edit: You can add more races of course (like Orc) and change the dice you roll. Also don't add half-elf or half-orc because they can use Human/Elf and Human/Orc.
That kinda lessens the power of the craft feats, remember that the PCs who got those feats essentially sold their feats for gp.
That kinda lessens the power of the craft feats, remember that the PCs who got those feats essentially sold their feats for gp.
We can still sell w/e magic items we make and keep in mind that the group is not all one race. If you don't want to take the risk that the item will be useless to you, don't ask for the reduction in cost. I should also mention that in our group we don't sell items for the most part. We use the feats to get cheaper items (up to 50% cheaper!!!!) so no one is complaining.
Edit: I should clarify. Up to 50% cheaper without race restrictions.
That kinda lessens the power of the craft feats, remember that the PCs who got those feats essentially sold their feats for gp.We can still sell w/e magic items we make and keep in mind that the group is not all one race. If you don't want to take the risk that the item will be useless to you, don't ask for the reduction in cost. I should also mention that in our group we don't sell items for the most part. We use the feats to get cheaper items (up to 50% cheaper!!!!) so no one is complaining.
Edit: I should clarify. Up to 50% cheaper without race restrictions.
First what does w/e means?
When i say that PCs sold their feats i mean that they get really cheap items by creafting them, not by selling what they craft.
I would like to agree; that i do not like restricting weapon based on race. For the race creating the weapon, this really is no restriction at all. For other races, the item is now worthless.
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That being said, If some player really wanted to make his magic item, race only.
I would use "Item Requires Skill to Use: Some items require a specific skill to get them to function. This factor should reduce the cost about 10%"
Like i said, race restriction, is almost no restriction at all for the race creating the magic item, and i equate that to a skill restriction.
I would like to agree; that i do not like restricting weapon based on race. For the race creating the weapon, this really is no restriction at all. For other races, the item is now worthless.
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That being said, If some player really wanted to make his magic item, race only.
I would use "Item Requires Skill to Use: Some items require a specific skill to get them to function. This factor should reduce the cost about 10%"
Like i said, race restriction, is almost no restriction at all for the race creating the magic item, and i equate that to a skill restriction.
I get what you say but a specific race is WAY more restrictive than skills(from a completely objectively point of view).
Also:
Another question, when you get 10% discount for requiring specific skill to use, what does this mean? having the skill as a class skill? having a specific amount of ranks in that skill? maybe a skill check?
To each his own.
If i was a elf player, and found out i could reduce the cost of creating magic items, buy make it race only.
I would do it in a heart beat. This would prevent all my magic stuff from being used against me if i am captured, stuff stolen, or disarmed.
Also, prevent those bloody hobgoblins from using the +3 magic bows & Elven cloaks of Invisibility, from our elven comrades that have fallen in battle.
Why would any race make stuff usable to another race, would be another question.
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Sleepwalker beat me to the post :)
There might be a need to ADD a +10% to creation cost, since this could be looked at as a racial advantage.
So why do the books (i think that 3.5 did the same) have it as a discount?
I believe it was because Magic Item creation rules were originally created for DMs to create magic items. Not for players to create their own magical items.
I don't know you, so I cannot judge you, but this sounds like you are looking to get a discount for nothing. Which will be harmful to your game. If you make an item that can only be used by your race and your alignment for a 20% discount then that is just bad for the game, for character balance and so on.
I have had a similar conversation with players who want to create rings of constant True Strike [or shield etc etc etc]. Sure the rules say that, but common sense plays a part as well.
You can use the rules as written for creating standard items, as soon as you start creating custom items, you need to work with your DM and compare it to other items in the books.
You yourself have explained that you picked up the item creation feats to trade feats for gold, when the designers looked at that they realized that players with such feats could buy items for 50% off market price. This was factored into the game. I doubt they also planned you to get a previous 30% off the item because you required the wielder to be of a certain race, a certain alignment, and have a certain skill.
As a DM, btw, I use Skill/Race/Alignment reduction percentages only when I think an item is too expensive otherwise. Usually because the ability it grants isn't worth as much in the current campaign as it would be in a normal campaign.
I am not thinking only about myself, i want to be able to craft for the entire party (and i will only have wondrous items, the cleric will be the one having weapons and armor). Also my DM decided to use the the table on page 461 for magic items (and roll randomly to see what items are in the city) and Korvosa is only a large city it will be almost impossible to find something either i or any other of the party will want, so i plan to make the most out of the craft feats.
So why do the books (i think that 3.5 did the same) have it as a discount?
PF core borrowed EXTREMELY heavily from 3.5 in order to establish their base (compare spell lists for example). So the question we have to ask is why did 3.5 have it? Basically flavor reasons. There are a handful of other things where WotC went flavor over function and we are still living the consequences. The problem with things being put in a flavor over function manner is that you're basically throwing at a dart board while blindfolded to see how balanced it is. Cost reductions are a place where things can get very dangerous, both MIC and metamagic.
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You need to be careful before applying discounts like that, else you end up letting in nonsense like
'Can only be used by dwarves, who are fighters, from Stonefist clan, named Snorri Snowbeard, if they have...ummm...let's see...dumdedum...what skills has he got....Aha!....5 ranks in Intimidate.".
'Right, so that knocks the price down to 70% to the power 5, or 0.7x0.7x0.7x0.7x0.7=0.16807x100%= 16.8% normal cost!
WooHoo!'These aspects either aren't a drawback at all, or they make the item useless to you, so you wouldn't be buying it at all.
Adding reductions and making them cumulative will result in this kind of silliness, yes. I wouldn't allow it at my table though. Apply only one reduction, max -30%, and they are not cumulative, DM fiat. Would be interesting to know what RAW and devs have to say about the stacking of these reductions...?
Adding reductions and making them cumulative will result in this kind of silliness, yes. I wouldn't allow it at my table though. Apply only one reduction, max -30%, and they are not cumulative, DM fiat. Would be interesting to know what RAW and devs have to say about the stacking of these reductions...?
In the same vein bonuses of the same type don't stack, those reductions of price should be typed as well. And not stack by default.
Those stacking should be typed differently (5% from the Hedge Magician trait, 25% from the 3.5 feat Magic Artisan, etc.)Back to the initial question: RAW says nothing about race-specific discount, but it's an interesting one, even more restrictive than requiring a given class.
I'd say it warrants 40% if the required race is generic ("human blood" allows for all half-and-half out there, as well as those taking a feat to indicate they have a human ascendent)
Then, 50% if the race is specific but common (dwarf, elf -but not half-elf-, gnome, etc.)
Then, 60% if the race is oddly specific (celestial-blooded dwarf for instance).
However, these options would be offered only to those crafters it does NOT apply to. Nothing like an outsider to really determine what defines your people.
$0.02-worth of house rules.
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Then, 50% if the race is specific but common (dwarf, elf -but not half-elf-, gnome, etc.)
$0.02-worth of house rules.
The bolded part can't be done.
The half-breeds are always considered to be of their parents races.
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The restriction is a benefit for the term the item is used. Once the item is no longer useful (reincarnation, death, better item) it suddenly becomes a liability. Selling the item becomes very difficult depending on the race. Selling something for a half-orc in Cheliax means a very steep discount indeed.
If you are reincarnated then all your race stuff just became worthless to you.
If you die then most of the party likely cannot use your stuff and will try to sell it. Which has its own problems as mentioned above.
Being polymorphed or otherwise shapechanged can cause problems. Also certain prestige class benefits could be a problem as they change your character type.
While they get the cool item for less cost when the cool item is no longer useful that lower cost is all you get out of it.
Finally, and unrelated, I think race based restrictions should only be allowed for things that relate to the race, such as axes for dwarves or curve blades for elves. A wand of fireballs relates to not race and as DM I would not allow a racial restriction.
Also unrelated, I would allow an area restriction such as a city or country or geographic area (like desert, mountains, or underground).
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The ironic thing is that the crafting things won't actually help your party. Why, you may ask?
Because an encounter is supposed to consume about 20% of a partys resources. Which means that the better your gear, the more dangerous foes you have to fight to gain the same amount of experience. There *is* a cr exp adjustment if your party is just tearing through bad guys like paper :D
Now, on to the mathy stuff!
From the magic item section pg 549:
Item requires skill to use: 10% reduction
Item requires specific class or alignment: 30% reduction
*Not all items adhere to these formulas. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point.
What does this mean? It means that every time you craft a magical item that isn't a carbon copy of one in the book, you have to ask your dm to evaluate a fair price. You can show him the calculations with as many reductions as you want, but he actually has to make a judgement call on every item you want to make with a price reduction, or that otherwise isn't an exact duplicate of one in the book.
If you have a lenient DM, you can get a lot for a little. A non-lenient one? Stick to the core stuff.
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Because an encounter is supposed to consume about 20% of a partys resources. Which means that the better your gear, the more dangerous foes you have to fight to gain the same amount of experience. There *is* a cr exp adjustment if your party is just tearing through bad guys like paper :D
That 20% is daily resources, spells, hp, etc. Because to consume 1/5th of all of a party's resources every fight is insane. The real issue in a fight is action economy and use activated items still need an action to use. The wizard who uses his fireball wand is foregoing using his other, possibly more powerful, spells. Cheaper items merely give him more options on what to do in a particular round