My 16th-level gunslinger can do 4d12 base damage with a single attack AND it's a touch attack! Woohoo! Beat that fighters and wizards!
[/sarcasm]
In all seriousness though, this class is suffering from some horrible balance issues. The above simply cannot compete with a wizard of similar level dealing 28d6 damage with a touch attack or a fighter doing ~200 damage each round with multiple standard attacks (which may well have powerful rider effects by then). Considering its supposed to be a primary damage dealer, it's doing a TERRIBLE job. It doesn't have much else to help make up for that fact either. I mean, no perception? Come on!
Shoulda' been a ranger variant.
(Just wanted to join the chorus.)
Heck, a wizard could do 32d6 with Disintegrate (also a touch attack) provided they fail a Fort save.
EDIT: Disintegrate even has better range than your gun.
Disintegrate? A mid-level Scorching Ray makes the gun look like a toy.
Just using that as an example of how much worse the gun is.
I am of the opinion that the gunslinger and guns in general need some reworking, but, the aforementioned gunslinger would be adding his Dex (easily a 30 by then) + weapon spec and greater weapon spec. Therefore, a 16th level gunslinger with a +5 musket could easily deal 4d12+19, and a X4 crit would mean that you would deal a total of 7d12+76 on a crit. not bad damage on a touch attack.
Course with a musket you'd still have a 10% chance of breaking your gun every time you fire it while crits have less than 5% chance of happening.
Guys, keep in mind that the gunslinger can use the steadfast enchantment to stop misfires by that level. Also, I'm inclined to say that using lighting reload and signature deed (lighting reload) would probably net superior damage than vital strikes at high levels since you can do a full round attack that way. Even though a 4d12 vital strike is nice, you get more +Dex and weapon specialization damage with a full round attack.
I do admit that the gunslinger probably does still need a damage boost, but it isn't quite as bad as you are making it out to be.
Heck, a wizard could do 32d6 with Disintegrate (also a touch attack) provided they fail a Fort save.
EDIT: Disintegrate even has better range than your gun.
At 16th level it does 32d6 damage, IF you win vs Spell Resistance. Otherwise you do Zero damage.
If you win over the spell resistance, then the target gets a Fortitude saving throw vs half damage. So any creature with good Fort saves can cut damage by 1/2 half.
All this assume the creature is not immune to magic, like some golem are, or Will-o-wisp or similar creature.
And as a ray, all the above only applies, if you hit the target, based off the Wizards BAB.
(just point out what the spell has to go thro)
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Now yes 1 shot guns are a pain, but i really do expect for them to come out with revolvers (6 shot), since they are adding a gunslinger class to the game. This does lessen some of the reload pain guns have at low level, until you have the feats to reload faster at higher levels.
16th level Gunslinger has 315,000 gp starting wealth with 25% on weapon has 78,750 to spend. Can buy 2 +4 magic weapon pistoal with 10,000 gp left over for a +2 sword as backup.
34,000 = +1 Pistol + Holy + Flaming.
34,000 = +1 Pistol + Holy + Frost.
(note= assuming gunslinger, does not need a distance enchantment. Replace fire or frost if using a fighter/ranger/barbarian with Distance.)
Damage
4d8 + 1 magic + 2d6 holy (v evil) + 1d6 Flame
4d8 + 1 magic + 2d6 holy (v evil) + 1d6 frost
(note = Perfer Bane weapon as they can do 2d6+2 damage vs Flame or frost, but Bane is DM dependent on campaign style... but very nice vs Demons or Undead type save the world games)
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Once you get revolvers and add magic enchantments, they should not be very far behind other weapon for damage.
PS= Yes, the Misfire rate can ruin your day. I am in the camp, that thinks a masterwork gun should not have any misfire rate at all, (but based on the magic enchantments they listed with guns i doubt it very much they will go that way). Even so a ZERO level Mending spell can be used to restore a broken gun if broken, or 2nd level Make Whole spell if the gun is Destroyed. Both these spell low enough that you should be able to find a cleric or wizard in most medium to large towns that can cast this spell for ( SL x CL x 10gp).
Note = One can swap out Holy (+2 bonus) = for Flame Burst or Frost Burst (+2 bonus). ====change the flame or frost listing to shock or corrosive====
This give +1d6 per shot, and if you do a critical Hit does an extra +3d10 damage extra.
Depending on if you take feats to improve your crit and stuff.
This thread certainly does show a problem with our (anyone's) early testing - We know how to optimize the base classes, but we don't yet know how to optimize a gunslinger.
I'd love to see a handful of gunslinger builds at 5th, 10th, and 15th level, with the math. We could compare that to standard optimized core characters, and see what the results really are.
This thread certainly does show a problem with our (anyone's) early testing - We know how to optimize the base classes, but we don't yet know how to optimize a gunslinger.
I'd love to see a handful of gunslinger builds at 5th, 10th, and 15th level, with the math. We could compare that to standard optimized core characters, and see what the results really are.
It will fall short of other classes prior to lvl 11. So the 15th level build may have some decent damage, but in the grand scheme it'll still be low compared to what the others are dishing out.
Guys, keep in mind that the gunslinger can use the steadfast enchantment to stop misfires by that level.
Yay! An enchantment tax! Just what the class needed! It further prevents a player's ability from getting his damage up (since you are practically forced to get a +1 steadfast gun rather than a +5 gun).
Also disintegrate is not a save for half, but a save for 5d6. If it were a save for half the spell might actually be GOOD.
Also, I was referencing disintegrate in my OP. Where did I get 28d6 from? My mind must be going.
My 16th-level gunslinger can do 4d12 base damage with a single attack AND it's a touch attack! Woohoo! Beat that fighters and wizards!
[/sarcasm]In all seriousness though, this class is suffering from some horrible balance issues. The above simply cannot compete with a wizard of similar level dealing 28d6 damage with a touch attack or a fighter doing ~200 damage each round with multiple standard attacks (which may well have powerful rider effects by then). Considering its supposed to be a primary damage dealer, it's doing a TERRIBLE job. It doesn't have much else to help make up for that fact either. I mean, no perception? Come on!
Shoulda' been a ranger variant.
(Just wanted to join the chorus.)
Reminds me of the problems the old warlock had.
It did seem, due to the wording in the playtest, that double barreled guns and other options would eventually be presented to get the GS Iterative attacks.
Of course at low levels with the expense of the firearms your going to be limited anyway.
Reminds me of the problems the old warlock had.It did seem, due to the wording in the playtest, that double barreled guns and other options would eventually be presented to get the GS Iterative attacks.
Of course at low levels with the expense of the firearms your going to be limited anyway.
Except the Warlock could permanently fly, had infinite black tentacles, and his EB actually scaled, also there were several means of further bumping its damage. (chausubles and hellfire prc)
Gunslinger gets none of that.
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The gunslinger does not seem to be designed as damage dealing class. They seem to be a fun utility class. At high levels, I'm not grabbing signature deed: lightning reload. In fact, I doubt I'd have lightning reload at all. What I would have is signature deed: Targeting. No save, no spell resistance. That's pretty insane if you ask me. While I won't be doing the most damage, a 4d8 + x touch attack that automatically confuses, knocks prone, or disarms my foe seems pretty nice( I intentionally didn't mention the 2x crit threat range as this seems a silly option to take when compared to the other options ). There are a lot of other deeds that help make the class very versatile and a valued member of the party. DPR is not a valid way to bench mark a class that has so many utility options.
The gunslinger does not seem to be designed as damage dealing class. They seem to be a fun utility class. At high levels, I'm not grabbing signature deed: lightning reload. In fact, I doubt I'd have lightning reload at all. What I would have is signature deed: Targeting. No save, no spell resistance. That's pretty insane if you ask me. While I won't be doing the most damage, a 4d8 + x touch attack that automatically confuses, knocks prone, or disarms my foe seems pretty nice( I intentionally didn't mention the 2x crit threat range as this seems a silly option to take when compared to the other options ). There are a lot of other deeds that help make the class very versatile and a valued member of the party. DPR is not a valid way to bench mark a class that has so many utility options.
Which would be perfectly fine with me if it were based off of a class with more utility (such as the ranger) rather than a straight up combat class (like the fighter).
The gunslinger does not seem to be designed as damage dealing class. They seem to be a fun utility class. At high levels, I'm not grabbing signature deed: lightning reload. In fact, I doubt I'd have lightning reload at all. What I would have is signature deed: Targeting. No save, no spell resistance. That's pretty insane if you ask me. While I won't be doing the most damage, a 4d8 + x touch attack that automatically confuses, knocks prone, or disarms my foe seems pretty nice( I intentionally didn't mention the 2x crit threat range as this seems a silly option to take when compared to the other options ). There are a lot of other deeds that help make the class very versatile and a valued member of the party. DPR is not a valid way to bench mark a class that has so many utility options.While I think you're right on the utility aspect, I can all but guarantee that Targeting (specifically hand and leg/wing) will be getting a big nerf before the next playtest/release.
I certainly hope not. It's the one good thing gunslingers have going for them. Spellcasters with the right spells can already do so much worse to an enemy (and at longer ranges).
The gunslinger does not seem to be designed as damage dealing class. They seem to be a fun utility class. At high levels, I'm not grabbing signature deed: lightning reload. In fact, I doubt I'd have lightning reload at all. What I would have is signature deed: Targeting. No save, no spell resistance. That's pretty insane if you ask me. While I won't be doing the most damage, a 4d8 + x touch attack that automatically confuses, knocks prone, or disarms my foe seems pretty nice( I intentionally didn't mention the 2x crit threat range as this seems a silly option to take when compared to the other options ). There are a lot of other deeds that help make the class very versatile and a valued member of the party. DPR is not a valid way to bench mark a class that has so many utility options.Which would be perfectly fine with me if it were based off of a class with more utility (such as the ranger) rather than a straight up combat class (like the fighter).
...which in retrospect, doesn't really matter, because it doesn't look like a fighter to begin with. Basing it on the ranger wouldn't make a bit of difference. The problem isn't the class, it's the class' stupid, high-risk weapons (which his abilities barely support, so wait, it is the class' fault).
I am of the opinion that the gunslinger and guns in general need some reworking, but, the aforementioned gunslinger would be adding his Dex (easily a 30 by then) + weapon spec and greater weapon spec. Therefore, a 16th level gunslinger with a +5 musket could easily deal 4d12+19, and a X4 crit would mean that you would deal a total of 7d12+76 on a crit. not bad damage on a touch attack.
Or you could get Scythe and Power Attack do 8d4+42 with a +29 to-hit and a crit-range of 19-20 using Improved Critical. A critical with that will run you 16d4+168.
(I think I got all those numbers right - using same Str and +5 weapon)
My 16th-level gunslinger can do 4d12 base damage with a single attack AND it's a touch attack! Woohoo! Beat that fighters and wizards!
[/sarcasm]In all seriousness though, this class is suffering from some horrible balance issues. The above simply cannot compete with a wizard of similar level dealing 28d6 damage with a touch attack or a fighter doing ~200 damage each round with multiple standard attacks (which may well have powerful rider effects by then). Considering its supposed to be a primary damage dealer, it's doing a TERRIBLE job. It doesn't have much else to help make up for that fact either. I mean, no perception? Come on!
Shoulda' been a ranger variant.
(Just wanted to join the chorus.)
Its a play test.
But perhaps we should sticky a:
1. Constructive Criticism thread.
and
2. Complaint Thread.
Then the other threads can be lovely discussion. :D
But surely. Most of my friends view the rules of guns as a bit powerful. Especially since the wording does imply that more barrels may come available. Like.. A six shooter, or a double barrel shotgun. You can bet they'll be as expensive as an adamantine masterwork bastard sword though. Perhaps the gunslinger will get crafting abilities when it comes to guns. Or. Well. Anyone would really.
Make a crafting feat even.
Or, have the misfires happen so that the first time you roll the misfire range, you have to make a certain check of a certain DC, or it breaks.
Though, I still maintain. Shooting a broken gun is realistically not intelligent. So. That point is just moot for me.
Though yes, right now. One shot type of guns at high levels are pretty weak. Fortunately ladies and gentlemen. This is a play test. Which, thank the Paizo gods they actually do. Rather than just releasing them as is telling the players. -Enjoy-! And when the players open it up, they see the CW Samurai staring them in the face.
I for one, have seen it once, and never want to see it again, thank you.
Nobody here is saying ill against the playtest itself. Just on the bad initial design of the gunslinger.
Nobody here is saying ill against the playtest itself. Just on the bad initial design of the gunslinger.
Honestly its mostly not even the gunslingers own fault, its those stupid things he carries around in holsters. If his class features worked on crossbows it would be a perfectly servicable if a little underpowered class.
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Nobody here is saying ill against the playtest itself. Just on the bad initial design of the gunslinger.Honestly its mostly not even the gunslingers own fault, its those stupid things he carries around in holsters. If his class features worked on crossbows it would be a perfectly servicable if a little underpowered class.
I used a musket from the setting book with a rogue. I greatly enjoyed using the musket and I found the misfire issue to be minimal. If nothing else it creates interesting situations =D
I used a musket from the setting book with a rogue. I greatly enjoyed using the musket and I found the misfire issue to be minimal. If nothing else it creates interesting situations =DNobody here is saying ill against the playtest itself. Just on the bad initial design of the gunslinger.Honestly its mostly not even the gunslingers own fault, its those stupid things he carries around in holsters. If his class features worked on crossbows it would be a perfectly servicable if a little underpowered class.
Raving.
Just wait until they introduce the Major Artifact.
The Gatling Gun.
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My 16th-level gunslinger can do 4d12 base damage with a single attack AND it's a touch attack! Woohoo! Beat that fighters and wizards!
Just curious, but where are you getting 4d12 from a single attack at 16th level? Are you talking about cumulative damage from a full-round attack (i.e. four attacks at 16th level)? Or are you seeing a scaled attack somewhere that I am missing?
I think he's climbing the Vital Strike tree, which is quite a viable choice for this class: Vital strike (or improved/greater version) and lightning reload could be performed in the same round. Rapid reload could be used as a move action with a pistol to avoid using valuable grit points, although signature deed could do that too.
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Its a play test.But perhaps we should sticky a:
1. Constructive Criticism thread.
and
2. Complaint Thread.Then the other threads can be lovely discussion. :D
But surely. Most of my friends view the rules of guns as a bit powerful. Especially since the wording does imply that more barrels may come available. Like.. A six shooter, or a double barrel shotgun. You can bet they'll be as expensive as an adamantine masterwork bastard sword though. Perhaps the gunslinger will get crafting abilities when it comes to guns. Or. Well. Anyone would really.
Make a crafting feat even.
Or, have the misfires happen so that the first time you roll the misfire range, you have to make a certain check of a certain DC, or it breaks.
Though, I still maintain. Shooting a broken gun is realistically not intelligent. So. That point is just moot for me.
Though yes, right now. One shot type of guns at high levels are pretty weak. Fortunately ladies and gentlemen. This is a play test. Which, thank the Paizo gods they actually do. Rather than just releasing them as is telling the players. -Enjoy-! And when the players open it up, they see the CW Samurai staring them in the face.
I for one, have seen it once, and never want to see it again, thank you.
you missed the section stating that the rules for guns were already on the way to the printer and therefore finalized? When 90% of the problems with the class comes from colossally stupid decision of locking down the most important part of the class (the tools of his trade) before playtest, the dev team deserve each and every complaint thread that spawns afterward.
He is getting 4d12 from a musket with greater vital strike.
The gunslinger is such a good idea. Now it looks like I have to build one of these guys and see if I can't be happy with it. Most of the time I see comments that 'x' class sucks and I can still get a build that pleases me. I'll come back with questions.
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you missed the section stating that the rules for guns were already on the way to the printer and therefore finalized? When 90% of the problems with the class comes from colossally stupid decision of locking down the most important part of the class (the tools of his trade) before playtest, the dev team deserve each and every complaint thread that spawns afterward.
Damn... it... wheres...the....like...button...smurf...
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Shoulda' been a ranger variant.
I think the fighter is more appropriate. The way it has been presented is more like a base class than an archetype.
I am sure there will be a firearms combat style and an archetype. Arhcetypes should also be made for the alchemist, cavalier, inquisitor, paladin, rogue, and whoever else wants to tote one.
Maybe the Gunslinger should get some kind of precision damage that scales with his level, something like the rogue's sneak attack damage. That could help him a little.