|
Translation: Take the magic, reskin it in a way that is technically higher magic, call it lower magic, and consider that a success?
Let's not even get into the fact that most of the "low magic" types come about to try and avoid basic stat booster items, not realizing the game does not function without them. So they certainly will not reflavor them as innate abilities.
Let's not get into the utility effects, such as flight, teleportation, and haste just to name a few that are most definitely magic. And you still need those.
i've played a character at level 17, that didn't had any of those utility spells, infact neither did the rest of the party, and it was just fine, made us think more how to overcome some challenges but you don't need those
|
Translation: Take the magic, reskin it in a way that is technically higher magic, call it lower magic, and consider that a success?
Let's not even get into the fact that most of the "low magic" types come about to try and avoid basic stat booster items, not realizing the game does not function without them. So they certainly will not reflavor them as innate abilities.
Let's not get into the utility effects, such as flight, teleportation, and haste just to name a few that are most definitely magic. And you still need those.
So higher numbers on your character sheet are automatically magic now? I realize the game assumes you need certain stats, so I address it by giving those stats without magic.
I'm not most "low magic" types. We're discussing my suggestions right now, not theirs.
As for utilities, I said I'm running low magic. That applies to the enemies, too. You don't need flight nearly as much if the enemies don't have much of it, either. The few flying creatures still around when you take out most of the outsiders are things that had natural fly speeds to begin with, and you probably weren't ever going to be able to keep up with them with a standard fly spell anyway. Teleportation isn't exactly necessary. It's nice, but you don't strictly need it. Haste isn't completely needed, but if you really like it, you can still make potions of it.
@cartigan:
Well, the first thing is to draw a line between "big D" design and "little d" design.
For big D, there are a number of lower magic settings that have used the core mechanics of D20 for a low-magic setting. You may have your own opinions of those. I don't tend to use them, because I know what I want. I like to focus on my own game, not some fantasy of a published book.
For little d, I do what is right for the campaign. Low magic usually forces me to design my own monsters/NPCs anyway. I don't rely overmuch on CR ever. I hear stories that it is imprecise, but I don't use it because I prefer to have a range of CRs — sometimes the players dominate, and sometimes they are fools not to flee.
In the context of a basic, starting, low-magic campaign, it is child's-play for a GM to limit some options, expand others, and correct as you go.
In some cases, it is an elegant solution to simply replace magic with a "Quality" rating. Instead of a +4 magic sword, you have a +4 quality sword.
These are just house rules. Unless you completely overlook something, you're not gonna TPK in the first session. You run a game, you correct for the gameplay you want, and you keep playing. This is how people have GMed for generations. For me, the controversial statement is that this is somehow impossible to do... as though CR, treasure tables, and saving throw calculations are somehow integral to the game. They are important for a certain type of play, but you can get a lot of mileage out of attack rolls, the weapon table, armor class, and skills.
I removed more posts. Don't be a jerk.
I removed more posts. Don't be a jerk.
Thanks for your patience, Ross. I have cause to believe I can keep it constructive from now on.
They do when the sources are magical.
As for enemies, still plenty of those that fly without magic, even if you ignore that most "low magic" means "low magic for you, not low magic for the rest of the world". Teleportation is an absolute requirement because short distance teleportation is the only way to escape a decent grapple, medium distance is the only way to escape combats, and long distance is the only way to get to where you need to be within a reasonable time frame. Potions of anything are incredibly overpriced, and waste actions. Meanwhile Haste items are a free action.
Or, you know, you are completely failing to understand the differences in a low magic campaign. There is no retreating with teleport: you have to do it the old fashioned way using your feat. Escape Artist and opposed CMB checks will get you out of a grapple, or you can just kill it first. And you actually have to physically travel from 1 place to annother, likely by boat or horse. This gives you time to use natural healing too, rather than magic. Potions become valuable because you can't get those shiny swift action boots, so you are not hasted every fight. If you have no other way of boosting yourself, the price of a potion of haste starts to look very cost effective.
It may not be your cup of tea, but lots of people like this type of game. With proper encounter design, it is perfectly playable, and often will provide a greater challenge to the players.
|
|
They do when the sources are magical.
As for enemies, still plenty of those that fly without magic, even if you ignore that most "low magic" means "low magic for you, not low magic for the rest of the world". Teleportation is an absolute requirement because short distance teleportation is the only way to escape a decent grapple, medium distance is the only way to escape combats, and long distance is the only way to get to where you need to be within a reasonable time frame. Potions of anything are incredibly overpriced, and waste actions. Meanwhile Haste items are a free action.
The sources aren't magical anymore. Being built into the character, they're all just sort of there. Since the system assumes you have those bonuses, though, they need to come from somewhere, and low-magic is more flavor as it is anything. I want to play low-magic Pathfinder, not another system, so I make as few changes as possible to keep the game working as it should. Making sure the bonuses are there through building them into the characters accomplishes that.
"Low Magic" does not mean "low magic for you, not low magic for the rest of the world" in my campaign. That's a straw man. I explicitly stated that low magic applies to everyone, not just the players. The enemy doesn't have magical flight, Haste, or teleportation either.
"Decent" grapples can be avoided by having high AC and CMD. Escaping combats isn't a strict necessity, and you can accomplish that with clever tactics or just running like hell, depending on your class. Long distance teleportation isn't a big deal because no one has it in my low-magic campaigns, so the idea of a "reasonable time frame" is vastly different than it is in a normal magic campaign. I changed the way potions work to make them less of an action waste, seeing as anyone can make them in my campaign, the price issue is considerably less important. I do have a few special materials for weapons that act as if they had the Speed property as well.
The enemies outrun you, you die tired. Thus you need teleport, except you can't get it, so you either fight and win or fight and die, but you do not run. Grapplers hold you anyways. Any adventure with a time table you automatically fail, because you can't get there.
Ennemies built to face magic-happy opponents will outrun you.
Adventures with a timetable expecting character to teleport around town will most-likely fail in low magic.Granted, the system as writen takes a large amount of magic into account. Remove availability to magic and the game doesn't work as intended. Therefore the need for a book that IMO, would be very popular.
'findel
The enemies outrun you, you die tired. Thus you need teleport, except you can't get it, so you either fight and win or fight and die, but you do not run. Grapplers hold you anyways. Any adventure with a time table you automatically fail, because you can't get there.
Most enemies can't outrun you, and if you use proper tactics you can make them not want to/unable to pursue in most situations. If you don't have an escape route, you probably should not be engaging in the first place.
Grapplers may hold you, but that is why you have a team, and why you can still full attack while grappled. Grapplers do low damage for the most part. They are a threat, but full BAB classes and people with escape artist can escape appropriate monsters with reasonable rate, even while pinned.
The time table changes. Instead of hours to stop something, you have days. Instead of days, you have weeks. Instead of weeks, you have months. You redefine the challenges to fit the world. In a world with telleport, you may only have seconds to respond to an invading army. In a world without telleport, you can see them marching for days out. Players spend much of their downtime traveling, instead of just telleporting to a new location, but if the GM designed that travel time into the adventure how does that change success or failure?
|
|
Low magic means you do not get any of those stats. Hell, high magic still gets you auto hit.
But with my low magic rules, you can get high AC/CMD. The whole thing is built around getting you the same numbers (or close) as the ones you get in high magic.
Quite the generalization in any case. A sword and board Fighter can get 25 AC at 4th level even under my rules without taking Dodge, Combat Expertise, or Shield Focus, which means the Owlbear, the primary grapple monster at that level, needs to roll a 17 on its attack roll to hit with its grab, and then roll again to hit CMD (albeit with a much higher chance, but it's still not a formality). At 8th level, the same Fighter can have 29 AC(+11 armor, +4 shield, +2 Dex, +2 dodge) without any sort of AC boosting feats, which means your average monster still has to roll about 15+ to hit him. This trend continues through the levels; AC is not just a formality if you devote actual resources to it.
For little d, I do what is right for the campaign. Low magic usually forces me to design my own monsters/NPCs anyway. I don't rely overmuch on CR ever. I hear stories that it is imprecise, but I don't use it because I prefer to have a range of CRs — sometimes the players dominate, and sometimes they are fools not to flee.
So you aren't really playing low magic Pathfinder. You are playing a low magic game with modified Pathfinder classes. That's cool and all, but it's not "low magic" D&D or Pathfinder.
Well, this thread was interesting and inspiring at the start...
I removed some bickering. If you must continue this topic, please take it to another thread.
So you aren't really playing low magic Pathfinder. You are playing a low magic game with modified Pathfinder classes. That's cool and all, but it's not "low magic" D&D or Pathfinder.
For little d, I do what is right for the campaign. Low magic usually forces me to design my own monsters/NPCs anyway. I don't rely overmuch on CR ever. I hear stories that it is imprecise, but I don't use it because I prefer to have a range of CRs — sometimes the players dominate, and sometimes they are fools not to flee.
Okay, sounds fine to me.
If the case being made is "you need a number of changes to the assumptions of the game to run a low-magic campaign" then I can agree with that.
If the case is "there is no such thing as low magic pathfinder: you cannot run a low magic game with Pathfinder as your only rulebook" then I disagree. A low magic game generally involves excluding a number of rules, but making use of things like the equipment chapter, substance hardness and HP, skills, etc.
If I started a campaign tomorrow, and I said "Pathfinder, Low Magic" my players would know precisely what I meant. It means GM approval for half or full casters (depending on setting), alternate abilities for Rangers and Paladin spellcasting. Skills will feature heavily, there will be no magic shops, and dragons might exist but they won't talk or cast spells.
But it is Pathfinder. About half the rulebook still applies.
I don't need another book to play this way, but if I were a new GM who hasn't been doing this for two decades, I might benefit from such a book.
A low magic game generally involves excluding a number of rules, but making use of things like the equipment chapter, substance hardness and HP, skills, etc.
Which reinforces the argument that Pathfinder is NOT low magic. Once you start tossing out all that information, you aren't playing the same game.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
|
Pathfinder is certainly not a "low magic" game.
I think we could probably do a "gritty" cap system that modifies the rules to make them work for a "low magic" style campaign, but you'd have to change so much about the way the system works (monster abilities, how encounters work, and treasure, just to pull three major ones out of the air) that it would probably take an entire book to do it.
I can think of a huge number of books that would probably sell better than an endeavor like this, so I don't think it's very likely to be high on the list of "things to do next."
|
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
|
To expand a bit on that, speaking as the publisher, I'm a lot more interested in books that help you play the Pathfinder game as it is expressed in the Core Rulebook than I am in books that fiddle with those assumptions and shift the baseline to something that a smaller number of customers are going to be interested in.
So, for example, a book like the Advanced Player's Guide or Ultimate Magic is a potential sale to every customer who bought a Core Rulebook, whereas a book that modifies the Core Rules to provide, say, a Cowboy experience is going to appeal to a significantly smaller audience.
That's not to say we can't or won't get into the niche stuff, but I want to make sure we keep the focus on books appropriate to the largest segment of the audience first.
At some point the ideas left for rulebooks will be so niche and specialized that a huge part of the audience will stop buying them. That point is probably inevitable, but I will be doing my duty to ensure that we put it off as long as humanly possible.
Which reinforces the argument that Pathfinder is NOT low magic. Once you start tossing out all that information, you aren't playing the same game.A low magic game generally involves excluding a number of rules, but making use of things like the equipment chapter, substance hardness and HP, skills, etc.
I guess you can say that, but it certainly ain't Shadowrun or Dark Heresy either. And I'm taking all of my rules from a book that says Pathfinder on the front.
We can agree that we're arguing semantics, right?
|
|
Pathfinder is certainly not a "low magic" game.
I think we could probably do a "gritty" cap system that modifies the rules to make them work for a "low magic" style campaign, but you'd have to change so much about the way the system works (monster abilities, how encounters work, and treasure, just to pull three major ones out of the air) that it would probably take an entire book to do it.
I can think of a huge number of books that would probably sell better than an endeavor like this, so I don't think it's very likely to be high on the list of "things to do next."
+1. Such a book, though, would be great material for a 3PP to cover.
I think we could probably do a "gritty" cap system that modifies the rules to make them work for a "low magic" style campaign, but you'd have to change so much about the way the system works (monster abilities, how encounters work, and treasure, just to pull three major ones out of the air) that it would probably take an entire book to do it.
How about a few pages of advice for running a low magic* setting? I would also love some advice about running other types of campaigns, high magic, espionage, inter-planar, Gothic horror, etc. Sort of like a guide with a little section with advice for running a campaign based in each of the headings? The more advice from the pros about how to run different things, the better.
But I wouldn't really expect to see a book like that until a year or two after the setting book was released.
*low magic being like 50% less magic then base core.
I think we could probably do a "gritty" cap system that modifies the rules to make them work for a "low magic" style campaign, but you'd have to change so much about the way the system works (monster abilities, how encounters work, and treasure, just to pull three major ones out of the air) that it would probably take an entire book to do it.How about a few pages of advice for running a low magic* setting? I would also love some advice about running other types of campaigns, high magic, espionage, inter-planar, Gothic horror, etc. Sort of like a guide with a little section with advice for running a campaign based in each of the headings? The more advice from the pros about how to run different things, the better.
But I wouldn't really expect to see a book like that until a year or two after the setting book was released.
*low magic being like 50% less magic then base core.
Probably a quick first pass would be cutting all full casters, a few mid casters like the summoner, and giving everyone the master craftsmen feat if you choose to keep MIC.
I am still figuring out the critter difficulties, but even in my pathfinder by the book game, I allow alot less magic items, all I have to do is realize that a critters CR is basically higher. So a CR10 encounter may be more like a CR12 encounter to my party. That has been working so far. I am slowly getting a feel for that. But I have to admit for that type of style it is easier to play an earlier edition of the game (for now) than pathfinder. But pathfinder has much to offer when we feel like the monty haul game. My players call it playing Munchkins. It's fun from time to time.
The following are books that I would particularly enjoy.
(most of what JJ posted as possibilities)
Urban Fantasy
Stronghold Book (Like Stronghold Builders Guide, of which I own two.)
Alternate Rules (Unearthed Arcana-esque. I didn't use it much, but it was neat.)
Magic Item Book (Involving both high numbers of magic items as well as more involved crafting, such as the idea of finding actual reagents that can be used to enchant a weapon. Nothing as awesome as having to get that dragon heart to actually make your flaming burst weapon.)
Anyway, those are the ones that I'm particularly interested in. Particularly the last one.
I know this is the Internet where reasoned arguments are plague rats to many people, however, there is a wide range of playstyles that Pathfinder can support that exist between the poles of High Fantasy & Low Magic.
Several in this thread have stated that anything other than high fantasy cannot be played within the Pathfinder RPG. This is patently false.
1. The sword-n-sorcery genre, which is the primary source of inspiration for the original game is not high fantasy. However, it is not low magic, either. There are several d20/OGL variants that were published during the days of 3e D&D - all using the d20 framework which is the roots/core mechanic of Pathfinder. [Conan OGL, Thieves' World, Game of Thrones, Grim Tales, etc.]
Since people (myself included) were expressing a desire for an EXPANSION/OPTION supplement, it's certainly do-able. What we were expressing a desire for was a Paizo-written book of this nature.
Lower magic doesn't necessarily mean "no magic", "low magic", or "gritty". It can, but it usually means high adventure where magic is rare and dangerous.
2. Paizo themselves "try different things" within their APs and rulebooks. New subsytems, new mini-games (e.g. kingdom-building), etc. These are not intrinsically tied to high fantasy. Does this mean they shouldn't be part of the game?
3. Epic play moves beyond the 20-level framework and almost becomes a different game unto itself. It's High Fantasy dialed up to 11. Yet somehow, it's viable but lower magic is not? Why? Just because YOU like it?
4. Paizo has stated consistently that the best selling modules & AP installments are in the lower half of the level spectrum. You know, the 1st 10 levels that best emulate sword-n-sorcery style gaming. I wonder why that is...
5. I'm also to believe that in a RPG that has 3 scales for leveling, guides for scaling treasure, and a CR system it's IMPOSSIBLE to lower the amount of magic without breaking the game? Don't be an ridiculous.
6. James cites a desire to publish a horror-themed RPG supplement. Yet horror is typically easier to pull off in swords-n-sorcery (it's a common trope of the genre) than in High Fantasy. Is James playing the game wrong?
I know the following statement is directed to a select, yet very vocal, few. --> Your style of play is not the One True Way. Just because you state an OPINION doesn't make it FACT. It's more than a little tiring being told (paraphrasing) "You're playing wrong."
read previous post
+1
I want low-magic support. :D At the VERY least a bunch of cool magic items that aren't +1 longswords and helms of beast-obliteration.
Wouldn't parking of the full casters on the slow progression XP table and non-casters on fast one help to make a low-magic play more like it? Okay, okay, problems with multiclass, and low level play follow ;)
Assuming the NPCs are following the same "low magic" rules the PCs are, the only real problems with such a game are monster stas and mathematical artefacts (such as BAB shooting through the roof) -- which are the same kinds of problems you face in any "nonstandard" game, from epic to an all-cleric party. They're not unsurmountable by any means, they just take a little extra GM work.
Heck, crank the XP down to "slow," restrict arcane classes to the Bard and the Alchemist, and re-skin the cleric as a "warlord," and you're practically ready to go.
It's not half the problem peole make it out to be, especially below 10th level.
-The Gneech
read previous post+1
I want low-magic support. :D At the VERY least a bunch of cool magic items that aren't +1 longswords and helms of beast-obliteration.
I'd like to see (and buy) a rulebook dealing with low/rare magic topics and alternate rules as well. Even an entire 'alternate' PHB like Monte's AE would be a cool way to do it.
|
So you aren't really playing low magic Pathfinder. You are playing a low magic game with modified Pathfinder classes. That's cool and all, but it's not "low magic" D&D or Pathfinder.
Almost every game I've ever played in has had some sort of house rules involved. So I'd say that the only games meeting your definition of Pathfinder would be PFS games (and even they could be borderline, as the GM might have to make up something to deal with a character's actions, as happened in my first PFS game).
Even the APs themselves often introduce new mechanics that aren't in the Pahtfinder RPG line, so running them RAW wouldn't count as "true" Pathfinder by your definition.