If i "reach" a spell with range of "touch" (who requires a melee touch) and make it let's say close range do i have to make a ranged touch attack or not?
For example let's say i cast a reach shocking grasp, do i treat my attack roll as a range touch attack for the purposes of shooting into melee, AoO etc.?
No, a close range spell does not require a touch attack.
So, yes as Shocking Grasp normally requires a melee touch attack it now requires a ranged touch attack.Reach Spell (Metamagic)
Your spells go farther than normal.
Benefit: You can alter a spell with a range of touch,
close, or medium to increase its range to a higher
range category, using the following order: touch, close,
medium, and long. A reach spell uses up a spell slot
one level higher than the spell’s actual level for each
increase in range category. For example, a spell with a
range of touch increased to long range uses up a spell
slot three levels higher. Spells modified by this feat
that require melee touch attacks instead require ranged
touch attacks.
Spells that do not have a range of touch, close, or
medium do not benefit from this feat.
How did i miss that?? *facepalm*
I might be getting into rules fuziness here but i have another question:
If i "reach" a spell that has as range "creature touched" but doesn't require a melee touch attack (mostly buffs like invisibility) and target an ally for that effect do i have to roll for ranged touch attack?
I might be getting into rules fuziness here but i have another question:
If i "reach" a spell that has as range "creature touched" but doesn't require a melee touch attack (mostly buffs like invisibility) and target an ally for that effect do i have to roll for ranged touch attack?
Nope. You only have to make the attack roll if the orginal spell called for one. That's why my oracle is going to take this feat asap. Cure light as a short range spell for only a 1 level penalty? Sign me up.
Nope. You only have to make the attack roll if the orginal spell called for one. That's why my oracle is going to take this feat asap. Cure light as a short range spell for only a 1 level penalty? Sign me up.I might be getting into rules fuziness here but i have another question:
If i "reach" a spell that has as range "creature touched" but doesn't require a melee touch attack (mostly buffs like invisibility) and target an ally for that effect do i have to roll for ranged touch attack?
I am thinking of taking with my wizard as well that's why i asked this question.
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How's this for a confusing gray area?
I want to use REACH SPELL with the TELEPORT line of spells, however, said spells say you must be touching your target(s) to teleport them with you.
Is it in keeping with the rules/intent to assume that REACH SPELL allows you to teleport your entire party from short, medium, or long range without the need for bodily contact?
How's this for a confusing gray area?
I want to use REACH SPELL with the TELEPORT line of spells, however, said spells say you must be touching your target(s) to teleport them with you.
Is it in keeping with the rules/intent to assume that REACH SPELL allows you to teleport your entire party from short, medium, or long range without the need for bodily contact?
I don't know if it is intent, but it is interesting enough to FAQ.
How's this for a confusing gray area?
I want to use REACH SPELL with the TELEPORT line of spells, however, said spells say you must be touching your target(s) to teleport them with you.
Is it in keeping with the rules/intent to assume that REACH SPELL allows you to teleport your entire party from short, medium, or long range without the need for bodily contact?
You will see a catchphrase like "the creature you touch" and "the creature hit by this ray" in almost any spell with a range of touch or in spells that materialize rays.That's because every part of the spell's text assumes that it has the range it has.When that changes it's only natural that some other changes must occur.
On a sidenote with the same logic the maximize feat goes like saying you take maximum variable numeric effects for the spell but on the spells it says you roll to see the results.
This kind of logic shouldn't be RAI as it opens as many doors to the realm of madness as can be counted and isn't definitely RAW as in metamagic feats it says that they modify the spells they are put on.
How's this for a confusing gray area?
I want to use REACH SPELL with the TELEPORT line of spells, however, said spells say you must be touching your target(s) to teleport them with you.
Is it in keeping with the rules/intent to assume that REACH SPELL allows you to teleport your entire party from short, medium, or long range without the need for bodily contact?
You will see a catchphrase like "the creature you touch" and "the creature hit by this ray" in almost any spell with a range of touch or in spells that materialize rays.That's because every part of the spell's text assumes that it has the range it has.When that changes it's only natural that some other changes must occur.
On a sidenote with the same logic the maximize feat goes like saying you take maximum variable numeric effects for the spell but on the spells it says you roll to see the results.
This kind of logic shouldn't be RAI as it opens as many doors to the realm of madness as can be counted and isn't definitely RAW as in metamagic feats it says that they modify the spells they are put on.
So you are of the opinion that, for an 8th-level spell, I could teleport my entire party to safety, even though they are hundreds of feet away from me?
Cool. :D
How's this for a confusing gray area?
I want to use REACH SPELL with the TELEPORT line of spells, however, said spells say you must be touching your target(s) to teleport them with you.
Is it in keeping with the rules/intent to assume that REACH SPELL allows you to teleport your entire party from short, medium, or long range without the need for bodily contact?
You will see a catchphrase like "the creature you touch" and "the creature hit by this ray" in almost any spell with a range of touch or in spells that materialize rays.That's because every part of the spell's text assumes that it has the range it has.When that changes it's only natural that some other changes must occur.
On a sidenote with the same logic the maximize feat goes like saying you take maximum variable numeric effects for the spell but on the spells it says you roll to see the results.
This kind of logic shouldn't be RAI as it opens as many doors to the realm of madness as can be counted and isn't definitely RAW as in metamagic feats it says that they modify the spells they are put on.
So you are of the opinion that, for an 8th-level spell, I could teleport my entire party to safety, even though they are hundreds of feet away from me?
Cool. :D
I thought touch spells became short ranged(25+5/2 caster levels). That is not hundreds of feet, but at high level it is normally more than close enough.
My vote.
Range touch attack, to take 1 person at range with you on the teleport (unless the other people are touching you).
You are paying +1 spell level for each range increase after all.
The problem I see with this feat is that it basically invalidates the Enlarge Spell feat. The latter can only be applied to spells that have a range of close, medium, or long. Not let's see what both feats do to these kinds of spells:
.
.
.
.
Close range
- Normal: 25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels
- Enlarge: 50 ft. + 5 ft./level
- Reach: 100 ft. + 10 ft./level
- Normal: 100 ft. + 10 ft./level
- Enlarge: 200 ft. + 20 ft./level
- Reach: 400 ft. + 40 ft./level
- Normal: 400 ft. + 40 ft./level
- Enlarge: 800 ft. + 80 ft./level
- Reach: N/A
So, we see, Reach Spell doubles the range in regard to Enlarge Spell, at the same cost. The only thing Reach Spell can't do is extend the range of spells that are already long, but seriously, who does that? Reach Spell, however, can convert touch spells to ranged spells, which is arguably quite better.
So, why would anyone take Enlarge Spell anymore?
Reach feat is very good spell for cleric and druids as there spells have touch or close range to them.
Reach for wizards is almost pointless with spectral Hand spell. All wizard spell 3rd level have med to long range already.
On the other hand
Enlarge is great for wizard, as it double all those long range damage spells.
Enlarge while doubling close range spells, has no effect on touch spells. So almost not worth the feat for a cleric or druid, at low levels, and at high level still not worth it. (cleric and druids need the feats for other more worth while things).
....................
Reach is a god send for cleric and druids.
Enlarge is a great for wizards/sorcerers.
The problem I see with this feat is that it basically invalidates the Enlarge Spell feat. The latter can only be applied to spells that have a range of close, medium, or long. Not let's see what both feats do to these kinds of spells:
.
.
.
.
Close rangeMedium Range
- Normal: 25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels
- Enlarge: 50 ft. + 5 ft./level
- Reach: 100 ft. + 10 ft./level
Long Range
- Normal: 100 ft. + 10 ft./level
- Enlarge: 200 ft. + 20 ft./level
- Reach: 400 ft. + 40 ft./level
- Normal: 400 ft. + 40 ft./level
- Enlarge: 800 ft. + 80 ft./level
- Reach: N/A
So, we see, Reach Spell doubles the range in regard to Enlarge Spell, at the same cost. The only thing Reach Spell can't do is extend the range of spells that are already long, but seriously, who does that? Reach Spell, however, can convert touch spells to ranged spells, which is arguably quite better.So, why would anyone take Enlarge Spell anymore?
While I agree with you, there are some uses:
Back in an old game, we were in a city that was being besieged by a hostile army. They set their lines back behind what a "long" range spell could hit from the walls. We gave them time to set up, start putting together siege engines, and then our sorceress showed them that she was fully capable of lobbing enlarged fireballs.
That example aside, I've never personally taken Enlarge. It strikes me as not worth the feat for something that comes up rarely. Generally I just memorize (or have known) one or two long range spells. It does bother me that Reach Spell is better then Enlarge 99% of the time. When the new material is more powerful then the old, I start having flashbacks to 3.5 power creep and splatbook proliferation.
On the other hand, it makes sense to replace Enlange Spell, which is obviously an inferior feat with something better.
How's this for a confusing gray area?
I want to use REACH SPELL with the TELEPORT line of spells, however, said spells say you must be touching your target(s) to teleport them with you.
Is it in keeping with the rules/intent to assume that REACH SPELL allows you to teleport your entire party from short, medium, or long range without the need for bodily contact?
I don't see where the gray area is...
Reach spell reads: "You can alter a spell with a range of touch,
close, or medium to increase its range to a higher
range category, using the following order: touch, close,
medium, and long."
Teleport reads: "Range - personal and touch"
The range of teleport does not fall into the categories of touch, close, or medium. Therefore it is not eligible to have reach spell applied to it.
How's this for a confusing gray area?
I want to use REACH SPELL with the TELEPORT line of spells, however, said spells say you must be touching your target(s) to teleport them with you.
Is it in keeping with the rules/intent to assume that REACH SPELL allows you to teleport your entire party from short, medium, or long range without the need for bodily contact?
I don't see where the gray area is...
Reach spell reads: "You can alter a spell with a range of touch,
close, or medium to increase its range to a higher
range category, using the following order: touch, close,
medium, and long."Teleport reads: "Range - personal and touch"
The range of teleport does not fall into the categories of touch, close, or medium. Therefore it is not eligible to have reach spell applied to it.
Couldn't a person choose not to activate it as a personal range spell, but as a touch spell, and then simply touch himself like he would another?
Couldn't a person choose not to activate it as a personal range spell, but as a touch spell, and then simply touch himself like he would another?How's this for a confusing gray area?
I want to use REACH SPELL with the TELEPORT line of spells, however, said spells say you must be touching your target(s) to teleport them with you.
Is it in keeping with the rules/intent to assume that REACH SPELL allows you to teleport your entire party from short, medium, or long range without the need for bodily contact?
I don't see where the gray area is...
Reach spell reads: "You can alter a spell with a range of touch,
close, or medium to increase its range to a higher
range category, using the following order: touch, close,
medium, and long."Teleport reads: "Range - personal and touch"
The range of teleport does not fall into the categories of touch, close, or medium. Therefore it is not eligible to have reach spell applied to it.
No you don't get to choose activation. That was a good catch. It is personal because it always affects the caster, and the touch part allows him to bring other people if he can touch them.
No you don't get to choose activation. That was a good catch. It is personal because it always affects the caster, and the touch part allows him to bring other people if he can touch them.
Agreed. you can't just adjust a spell's range to fit what you're doing. That would make it a different spell. For example, you can't choose to ignore scorching ray's close range and use it as a touch attack instead.
Does reach spell specifically state it doesn't work with personal range spells? Or does it simply say that the spell in question needs to have a range of touch, close, or medium? If it is the latter, than teleport does indeed qualify for the feat (just because it is also a personal range spell does not mean it isn't a touch spell as well).
EDIT: Just looked it up. The spell needs to have a range of touch, close, or medium. Since teleport has a range of touch, it most certainly qualifies for the feat. The feat mentions what the spell needs to have in order to qualify. It does NOT mention any kind of disqualifiers.
The only thing anyone can say MIGHT prevent the combo, insofar as I can tell, is the teleport spell's body text which reads: "All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you."
I suspect that the intent may be that, that line doesn't prohibit the use of the feat, however.
Does reach spell specifically state it doesn't work with personal range spells? Or does it simply say that the spell in question needs to have a range of touch, close, or medium? If it is the latter, than teleport does indeed qualify for the feat (just because it is also a personal range spell does not mean it isn't a touch spell as well).
It states the second. Now I'm of two minds here:
RAW it states that it works on spells with a range of touch, close, or medium. As such it can't work on teleport because teleport has a range of "personal and touch" -- the personal part disqualifies the spell since it isn't "only" touch. However the "only" part isn't actually in the feat -- it simply states it works on spells with a range of touch, close or medium. As such I can easily see that it allows teleport to be used since it has a range of touch.
Does reach spell specifically state it doesn't work with personal range spells? Or does it simply say that the spell in question needs to have a range of touch, close, or medium? If it is the latter, than teleport does indeed qualify for the feat (just because it is also a personal range spell does not mean it isn't a touch spell as well).It states the second. Now I'm of two minds here:
RAW it states that it works on spells with a range of touch, close, or medium. As such it can't work on teleport because teleport has a range of "personal and touch" -- the personal part disqualifies the spell since it isn't "only" touch. However the "only" part isn't actually in the feat -- it simply states it works on spells with a range of touch, close or medium. As such I can easily see that it allows teleport to be used since it has a range of touch.
You ninja'd me edit above. Coincidentally enough, I rebutted your interpretation before I had even read it.
I don't think you did, since I stated both cases and didn't make a choice. Hard to rebut someone that doesn't make a stance. Third Jin and all that.
I don't think you did, since I stated both cases and didn't make a choice. Hard to rebut someone that doesn't make a stance. Third Jin and all that.
True that.
Does reach spell specifically state it doesn't work with personal range spells? Or does it simply say that the spell in question needs to have a range of touch, close, or medium? If it is the latter, than teleport does indeed qualify for the feat (just because it is also a personal range spell does not mean it isn't a touch spell as well).
EDIT: Just looked it up. The spell needs to have a range of touch, close, or medium. Since teleport has a range of touch, it most certainly qualifies for the feat. The feat mentions what the spell needs to have in order to qualify. It does NOT mention any kind of disqualifiers.
The only thing anyone can say MIGHT prevent the combo, insofar as I can tell, is the teleport spell's body text which reads: "All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you."
I suspect that the intent may be that, that line doesn't prohibit the use of the feat, however.
I am confused by your reading. The feat states: "You can alter a spell with a range of touch, close, or medium to increase its range to a higher range category, using the following order: touch, close, medium, and long."
Teleport has range of "personal and touch".
If it were personal or touch, I can see the argument that if you chose to make it touch, you could apply reach spell to this feat. That usage of the spell would mean that you could teleport other people without going yourself... which is a different spell than the current incarnation of teleport. In its current incarnation, I don't see how it fits within the well-defined definition of the feat.
I have a question about Reach and Rusting Grasp.
Rusting Grasp say 1 round per level duration.
Does this mean i get to make a Ranged Touch Attack, once each round.
..............
I think it does, but just double checking.
The same question would be with chill touch.
How did i miss that?? *facepalm*
Failed your spot check?
I don't see where the gray area is...
Reach spell reads: "You can alter a spell with a range of touch,
close, or medium to increase its range to a higher
range category, using the following order: touch, close,
medium, and long."Teleport reads: "Range - personal and touch"
The range of teleport does not fall into the categories of touch, close, or medium. Therefore it is not eligible to have reach spell applied to it.
The problem with this is that this is not a computer game. 100% literal is not the only, and often not even the best, interpretation of everything.
Failed your spot check?
How did i miss that?? *facepalm*
Yes i rolled 1.
The problem with this is that this is not a computer game. 100% literal is not the only, and often not even the best, interpretation of everything.I don't see where the gray area is...
Reach spell reads: "You can alter a spell with a range of touch,
close, or medium to increase its range to a higher
range category, using the following order: touch, close,
medium, and long."Teleport reads: "Range - personal and touch"
The range of teleport does not fall into the categories of touch, close, or medium. Therefore it is not eligible to have reach spell applied to it.
I can see both interpretations of the RAW, so there is some grey here. The next step is to look at the fun and game balance aspects. Is it game breaking to teleport your team at range? Not really. It helps a LOT when using it as an evac,so you don't TPK. Anything that helps there I don't have a lot of problems with, as everyone dying is rarely fun. Plus it does use a higher level spell slot. For non-evacuation uses it seems a very high cost (in spell levels) just to shuffle people around.
I'd let it fly were I running, at least until someone used it to break the game. YMMV
I can see both interpretations of the RAW, so there is some grey here. The next step is to look at the fun and game balance aspects. Is it game breaking to teleport your team at range? Not really. It helps a LOT when using it as an evac,so you don't TPK. Anything that helps there I don't have a lot of problems with, as everyone dying is rarely fun. Plus it does use a higher level spell slot. For non-evacuation uses it seems a very high cost (in spell levels) just to shuffle people around.
I'd let it fly were I running, at least until someone used it to break the game. YMMV
I understand the concept of literal nitpicking not being the best way to run a game, but in this case I think that being able to teleport without having to touch someone is extremely powerful. It effectively makes a whole giant part of the game, such as terrain useless for the GM. It gives the spells utility WAY beyond what it was meant to have for a very small price.
Additionally it introduces additional ambiguity headaches. Okay I am a 15th level caster and I raise teleport to 8th level (long range). So now I and my buddy 1000 feet away can both get wisped away by my teleport. But where do we appear? Do I appear at my destination and my buddy is still 1000 feet away from me? Do we suddenly appear next to each other?
RE Rusting Grasp and Chill Touch: Yes, as far as I can tell it would just change the melee attack(s) into a ranged touch attack as per the description of the spell.
I see no problem with an 8th level spell letting you do that. The caster would still need to have line of sight to the ally 1000ft away. As for the destination, Teleport doesnt teleport you X number of miles in X direction. It teleports all targets to X location which must be in Y distance. The only odd situation that I see this creating is what if the caster is within range of the destination and the fighter 1000ft away is not. Then I would say he either gets left behind or just say that...
I am in fact not aware of any spell at 8th level that allows you to teleport people from 1000 feet away, and I view that as one of the major limitations on the entire subschool of teleportation. Personally I like to try to avoid breaking the game, but maybe that's just my take o.O
Additionally it introduces additional ambiguity headaches. Okay I am a 15th level caster and I raise teleport to 8th level (long range). So now I and my buddy 1000 feet away can both get wisped away by my teleport. But where do we appear? Do I appear at my destination and my buddy is still 1000 feet away from me? Do we suddenly appear next to each other?
This "ambiguity headache" exists even without the Reach Spell feat. There is absolutely nothing in the spell's text that says everyone shows up in the same relative positions as those prior to their departure, or if the caster can choose everyone's new positions upon arrival.
Back to the enlarge/reach comparison.
don't forget that you can combine: a touch -> close ,then enlarged.
Except it is better to go from touch to close to medium with the same +2 spell level adjustment using Reach Spell alone.
also enlarge works on fixed-range spells.
It does not. It specifically states close, medium or long range spell. All other ranges are unaffected.
So I'd agree that reach is better; but it's not replacing enlarge
I am afraid that the only use for Enlarge Spell now is to double long rage, which is only rarely useful (like in mentioned siege example).