Taking a level of monk to gain its ki pool is not a "fix".
Just because you met that one guy one time, doesn't mean all ninjitsu is based on cha.
Like Bones, she lacked cha early on. Sure she look good, but she is a tv character, they pretty much always look good. But she would flat out tell Booth things about people dieing or their genitals being removed etc.
And well, it disturbed Booth. Not because Bones is trained in ninjitsu or how to use her cha effectively. But simply because of information. A person of high int and low cha can frighten you.. passively. Because they don't act the way you do. A kid who plays with dead animals and dissects them for fun is pretty scary.
The biggest problem is the fact that cha isn't your force of will in mechanics. That's wisdom. Hence will saves are cha based.
We are not proponents of making just wis based, but for the ability to have cha or wis be available for the ninja ki pool, just like many of us would like wis or cha to be for gunslingers grit pool.
Huh, funny, pathfinder words so many things infinitely better than 3.5, but this is lost in translation?
heres what I mean:
Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting. Charisma is most important for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to turn undead. Every creature has a Charisma score.
...Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance. It is the most important ability for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to channel energy. For undead
Whoops, I don't know why I wrote will saves are cha based, cause they arn't.
But that is one of the things that does irk me quite a bit. Specifically the thing you bolded from 3.5 and how easily a high cha person is so easily destroyed by will saves.
It is one of the reasons back in my Why Cha is a Dump stat thread that I've said that cha should be able to do something for your will saves.
Yeah, change the game and make will saves CHA dependant^^
Why you even bother about such things? It´s a game and you can only influence it by becoming a developer or whatever at Paizo. Or you can homebrew and houserule.
Just think of the consequences: Sorcerers, bards, ninjas and some rogues suddenly getting superhigh will saves. That means no more will saves for rogues to resist that shiny big treasure :)
Yeah, change the game and make will saves CHA dependant^^
Why you even bother about such things? It´s a game and you can only influence it by becoming a developer or whatever at Paizo. Or you can homebrew and houserule.
Just think of the consequences: Sorcerers, bards, ninjas and some rogues suddenly getting superhigh will saves. That means no more will saves for rogues to resist that shiny big treasure :)
I fail to see how the rogue/ninjas will get super high will saves. Sorc and bard yes. But you know... Clerics right now..
I also fail to see how one cannot influence it by being a regular guy who posts an Idea that a developer sees. Especially in the middle of play test forum. This isn't a forum where they just simply ignore you.. you know?
the big thing though is not just to make will saves cha dependant, because then that makes wis the dump stat.
I fail to see how the rogue/ninjas will get super high will saves. Sorc and bard yes. But you know... Clerics right now..
As a *sane* ninja, you would max DEX and CHA, because CHA makes the saves for your save or whatever abilities too and all the nice skills you can use with it like disguise, diplomacy, use magic device,...so itts not really difficult to get a +6 or +7 there or even on both stats over time, what makes for high saves.
I also fail to see how one cannot influence it by being a regular guy who posts an Idea that a developer sees. Especially in the middle of play test forum. This isn't a forum where they just simply ignore you.. you know?the big thing though is not just to make will saves cha dependant, because then that makes wis the dump stat.
That might be both true. However i like the ninja how it is now, its nice and cool and balanced too. The only thing that could change is some ninja tricks becoming abilities that the ninja gets in addition with leveling, especially bombs, darkvision, featherfall, such stuff. That would make the forgotten trick unnecessary too.
I just can't seen this being Cha based. This SHOULD be Wis based. I just don't get it.
P.S. I see Ninja/Paladins in the future!
I fail to see how the rogue/ninjas will get super high will saves. Sorc and bard yes. But you know... Clerics right now..As a *sane* ninja, you would max DEX and CHA, because CHA makes the saves for your save or whatever abilities too and all the nice skills you can use with it like disguise, diplomacy, use magic device,...so itts not really difficult to get a +6 or +7 there or even on both stats over time, what makes for high saves.
However any Sane cleric would max out wis. Because Wis makes the saves for your save or whatever abilities too and the nice skills such as Pereption and Sense Motive, Profession, heal, survival.. So its not really difficult for a cleric to gain 12-14 there.. which makes for very high saves as well.
That might be both true. However i like the ninja how it is now, its nice and cool and balanced too. The only thing that could change is some ninja tricks becoming abilities that the ninja gets in addition with leveling, especially bombs, darkvision, featherfall, such stuff. That would make the forgotten trick unnecessary too.
I also fail to see how one cannot influence it by being a regular guy who posts an Idea that a developer sees. Especially in the middle of play test forum. This isn't a forum where they just simply ignore you.. you know?the big thing though is not just to make will saves cha dependant, because then that makes wis the dump stat.
So you like the way the ninja is now, so your goal then is to shut off extra opinions that don't go along with what you find cool? Like I've said, The argument can be made for both wis and cha to run ki of the ninja, why not make it such an option?
My lance for this is the Tengu Ninja.
So you like the way the ninja is now, so your goal then is to shut off extra opinions that don't go along with what you find cool? Like I've said, The argument can be made for both wis and cha to run ki of the ninja, why not make it such an option?My lance for this is the Tengu Ninja.
No, that is not my goal at all. Freedom of speech and opinion is deemed very high in many many countries of this world and i do the same. I solely express my opinion and i think a lot of the meh about ninja class here is a little bit too much. Perhaps its also the way of expression some use, what might be due to cultural differences. Some think making a strong ego point is a good way of expression, other might look at that as cowboyism. I think there should not be too much interpretation into such things and friendlyness should be kept. On the other hand it seems more to me that you want to cut out other opinions by using such sentences as above, what seems quite popular in the US to have mudfights and argue with offensive arguments. :)
Giving the option to choose between CHA and WIS is like 4e. You can tap into monk and have ki of from WIS then, its already possible.
And what is a Tengu Ninja?
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We can debate the historical ninja's infiltration abilities forever. However, with Wisdom being a more important stat (saves / perception ftw) coupled with the increase in abilities / power for the ninja makes charisma a better fit mechanically. Any move to base ki off of wisdom should require a decrease in abilities and power. Otherwise, the ninja completely overshadows the rogue.
Furthermore, there is already a stealthy class with ki based off wisdom. I can see a variant ninja based off of wisdom with less powers / abilities similar to the new sorcerer variants in Complete magic thou.
So you like the way the ninja is now, so your goal then is to shut off extra opinions that don't go along with what you find cool? Like I've said, The argument can be made for both wis and cha to run ki of the ninja, why not make it such an option?My lance for this is the Tengu Ninja.
No, that is not my goal at all. Freedom of speech and opinion is deemed very high in many many countries of this world and i do the same. I solely express my opinion and i think a lot of the meh about ninja class here is a little bit too much. Perhaps its also the way of expression some use, what might be due to cultural differences. Some think making a strong ego point is a good way of expression, other might look at that as cowboyism. I think there should not be too much interpretation into such things and friendlyness should be kept. On the other hand it seems more to me that you want to cut out other opinions by using such sentences as above, what seems quite popular in the US to have mudfights and argue with offensive arguments. :)
Giving the option to choose between CHA and WIS is like 4e. You can tap into monk and have ki of from WIS then, its already possible.
And what is a Tengu Ninja?
Tengu are oriental bird like creatures, or sometimes creatures with extremely long noses. Often they are portrayed as ninjas.
Yeah you can use wis to tap into ki, but that's when you play a monk not a ninja. I do not see how giving the ability to choose is a bad thing. (As most people tend to equate 4e=bad)
Making the ki based off wisdom wouldn't make the ninja overshadow the rogue. Making a class called ninja and releasing it would however for a brief time until people got used to ninja and then its population would wan.
i don't believe ninja were known for thier social presence.
there were just as mentally and spiritually focused as monks were
they had a great deal of common sense and saw that it was easier to dissapear by becoming one of the crowd, a task tht requires a weak presence combined with anonymity.
i would say make the Ki pool wisdom based.
ninja tried not to be noticed, a high charisma means one is highly distinguished and has a stronger presence, meaning they are more likely to be noticed.
ninja were not the flashy cannon fodder in black pajamas hollywood made them out to be.
i would suggest a class feature for adding 1/2 your ninja level to disguise and bluff checks to simulate the requisite training in these skills without enforcing the need for charisma and allowing a wisdom based ninja to accomplish his/her tasks.
ninja were not very chatty either. a higher will save and lower charisma suits that. they were very focused on finishing the task as soon as possible and tried thier best to avoid unneccessary distractions.
i don't believe ninja were known for thier social presence.
there were just as mentally and spiritually focused as monks were
they had a great deal of common sense and saw that it was easier to dissapear by becoming one of the crowd, a task tht requires a weak presence combined with anonymity.
i would say make the Ki pool wisdom based.
ninja tried not to be noticed, a high charisma means one is highly distinguished and has a stronger presence, meaning they are more likely to be noticed.
ninja were not the flashy cannon fodder in black pajamas hollywood made them out to be.
i would suggest a class feature for adding 1/2 your ninja level to disguise and bluff checks to simulate the requisite training in these skills without enforcing the need for charisma and allowing a wisdom based ninja to accomplish his/her tasks.
ninja were not very chatty either. a higher will save and lower charisma suits that. they were very focused on finishing the task as soon as possible and tried thier best to avoid unneccessary distractions.
Real ninja's or fantasy movie ninja's? because the devs stated they were modeling after the latter.
Well then they are only doing really 1/2 of the fantasy movie ninjas..
For example one ninja in Samurai Deeper Kyo is quite obviously ninja and is used to create smoke screens out of mist and the like. But is often left there by the other characters much to his jargon. (They forgot about him.)
Then you have the Tenchu Stealth Assassin Ninjas...
and a couple of other ninjas that appear in various animes and are nothing more than throw aways. (The other characters care very little about the ninjas and will just send them to death.)
Well then they are only doing really 1/2 of the fantasy movie ninjas..
For example one ninja in Samurai Deeper Kyo is quite obviously ninja and is used to create smoke screens out of mist and the like. But is often left there by the other characters much to his jargon. (They forgot about him.)
Then you have the Tenchu Stealth Assassin Ninjas...
and a couple of other ninjas that appear in various animes and are nothing more than throw aways. (The other characters care very little about the ninjas and will just send them to death.)
Im pretty sure we're talking main character ninja's
The problem with basing it off main characters.... The main character always is giving the illusion of having huge amounts of cha, even if they are the greatest dirt back in the world or have absolutely no personality to speak of. See for example Desert Punk or that thing in those twilight movies.
Not to mention, why is it they would suddenly want to base Ninjas off the main characters of movies as an excuse to use Cha when they don't do similar with gunslingers? Or Tom Cruises? Oh I means Samurai.
Real ninja's or fantasy movie ninja's? because the devs stated they were modeling after the latter.
Other than stealthy the two things a ninja has always been from what I can see, in history and fantasy, is observant and determined. Things get wanky when you start throwing in RL ninja's.
You know...
People were all like "Well sorcerers use cha instead of int like wizards an no one complained.."
Guess what?
Sorcerers, with the proper bloodines, can now use Wis, Int, or Cha.. Options.. go figure.
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I'm really excited to see it be Cha. If I see a bunch of Cha 8 ninjas to hang out with the Cha 8 monks I'm going to wonder how all of Asia managed to produce such unlikable character classes!
Along with the Cha 8 Samurais, it's a veritable cornucopia of ugly, or jerks, or ugly jerks in the case of dwarves.
If i read it right, wizards with the proper feat could use CHA or WIS as well instead of INT. Same for every other caster.
Not feat. School.
Like the Super duper Charm school that allows a wizard to use cha instead of int.
Or the bloodmage bloodline/school that lets you use con instead of cha/int.
I also vote for Wisdom-based ki.
There can be ninja tricks to enhance Bluff and/or Disguise checks if folk are worried about low Charisma ninja being masters of disguise or feinting in combat.
Also, trapfinding should be a either a core class ability or a ninja trick that can be selected.
I wouldn't be adverse for the Ki Pool class feature being at 1st level, and have a corresponding Ki Reserve power, like the +2 to Will Saves the 3.5 Ninja gets when she has at least 1 point in her ki pool. A selection of abilities that are roughly equivalent to a feat might be nice, like Alertness, Defensive Combat Training, Dodge (Or monk-like Wisdom to AC?), Endurance, Fleet (or +10 to speed), Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative (or Wisdom modifier added to Initiative?), Iron Will, Skill Focus, etc.
For all it's worth, I would also prefer that the ki pool is based off wisdom. I don't see sufficient reasons to make it different from the monk one, which is called and functions fairly similarly. If anything, I think the rogue should be more reliant on charisma - the archetypes from history, myth and media it is based on cover not just burglars and assassins, but conmen, swashbucklers and other rakish ne'er-do-wells: the kind of smooth criminals that tend to live and die by their wits and charm. As far as I am aware, ninja archetypes tend to stress their charm a lot less - and while charisma does also cover issues such as deception or disguise, these are hardly fields where "rogues" are supposed to be lacking either. Perhaps the rogue could also get a "canny tricks" pool they can use, say to get minor bonuses or fuel abilities currently capped at once per day? I don't see much sense why a rogue with the "master of disguise" talent can only be a master once daily ;) .
Ideally, I would prefer the ninja as a kind of large archetype for the rogue, kind of like the qigong monk. If no, I would prefer if it focused on stealth and perception, going with a high wisdom rather than charisma. Perhaps a cha-based ninja could be an archetype?
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Those in favor of Wisdom being the ki-stat, what would you guys do with the rogue then? I mean, to make it competetive once Ultimate Combat is released and PFS is inundated with ninjas. The only thing going for rogues then will be trapfinding and you can get that AND a slew of cool abilities and spells by going bard or ranger.
Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure Charisma will stay as the main statistic of ninjas, exactly because of rogues. Some semblance of balance at least.
Maybe Wisdom for Ki and only 6 + Int skill ranks?
I would almost suggest using 3.5 Sudden Strike....it's relatively easy to get it with a stealthy character, but it's not quite as potent as a 2 weapon rogue flanking with the fighter or barbarian or summoned beastie.
Personally, I was pleased to see that Cha was the chosen stat to increase the Ki pool of the ninja class. As someone else pointed out, it takes stage presence to make people look where you want, and Wis doesn't do that. I also like the idea of Ki not just being connected with one stat - sort of a Yin/Yang thing. One is a passive force (Wis: focused on the within; an introvert) while the other is an active force (Cha: focused on the without; extrovert). Not a perfect analogy, I know, but Cha makes far more sense to me for the ninja than Wis.
Just my opinion.
I really like your analogy of Wis: Introvert, Cha: Extrovert. Unsurprisingly it is very similar to why I liked the idea of having another version of Ki, being CHA based, and specially the idea of coming form the Ninja.
It definitely feels the right move for me, but then again I don't like multiclassing, making the lack of synergy with Monk a non-issue, and enhancing the flavor by the idea of a different Ki user, like someone mentioned before, the Sorcerer to the Monk's Wizard.
Personally, I was pleased to see that Cha was the chosen stat to increase the Ki pool of the ninja class. As someone else pointed out, it takes stage presence to make people look where you want, and Wis doesn't do that. I also like the idea of Ki not just being connected with one stat - sort of a Yin/Yang thing. One is a passive force (Wis: focused on the within; an introvert) while the other is an active force (Cha: focused on the without; extrovert). Not a perfect analogy, I know, but Cha makes far more sense to me for the ninja than Wis.
Just my opinion.
I really like your analogy of Wis: Introvert, Cha: Extrovert. Unsurprisingly it is very similar to why I liked the idea of having another version of Ki, being CHA based, and specially the idea of coming form the Ninja.
It definitely feels the right move for me, but then again I don't like multiclassing, making the lack of synergy with Monk a non-issue, and enhancing the flavor by the idea of a different Ki user, like someone mentioned before, the Sorcerer to the Monk's Wizard.
ALthough i totally agree with before posters, in my opinion this is really not a good analogy and i can explain why:
1.Basically it seems good to say WIS is introverted and CHA is extroverted, nut there are some problems.You can imagine calm monks and clerics and charming bards and sorcerers.
But! The stats are actually not about that. Thats more about playstyle. Else you would be limited playing your character very heavily. Of course INT makes a pretty hard limitation, but thats still in a slightly different way. Its more hardcoded limits. What we are talking here are more aspects of personality, which are free.
You can play an extroverted cleric or monk and an introverted bard or sorcerer. The stats only are for abilities at this moment, like CHA is not a pure indicator for good looks. Not even the force of personality thing is really grasping it. More the word itself: Charisma.
Imagine the successful boss who has a lot of personality force, but can´t really get along with a lot of people because he is an social dumbass. Would he have a high CHA?
2. You can see actors, singers and entertainers have a high CHA. Also some politicians (i dont want to go into detail here because i dont want to hurt feelings or national pride and i dont want to get this post deleted). Thats why bards get high CHA and the ninja too. Its not meant to fight directly in the open. but dependant on trickery, disguise etc. Unlike the rogue its even more a social type, hence CHA dependant in several ways. Ninjas also dont go into monasteries or retreat to have religious meditations, thats also why its not WIS.
I still think a LACK of Charisma can be expressed as stealth. Like Kragar from the Vlad Taltos books by Steven Brust. Kragar is so unassuming that people don't notice he's there. This was disastrous when he had to lead soldiers in combat, but extremely advantageous once he joined the Jhereg and became a thief, assassin, and right hand man to Vlad Taltos.
it should be wis, plain and simple.
Cha has nothing to do with likeablity. it's presence. some of the most unlikeable people i know have amazing presence inside the courtroom.
To me making ki based on cha is much like the antogize feat, it ruins the internal logic of the game.
the mental powers of charisma is different from wisdom.
Ki comes from the same place as the willpower to be on the offensive and still keep blocking and maintain gap control. it is best decribe as an aspect of willpower, mental toughness= wisdom.
Charisma mental attritubes to me is best describe as presence and it has nothing to with likeability. the fact is most of the truly charismatic persons in history were monsters- ceaser, hitler, stalin pr arrogant pricks; ceaser,napoleon, rasputin or just plain self absorbed jerks naiomi campbell, and long list of actor and musicians.
it is completely illogical based upon our reality, and the reality of the game, to make Ki cha based. I don't care if it's a good idea, or makes cha more useful, it's ilogical and down right silly.
Wait it is illogical for a ninja, an assassin that relied entirely on misdirection and tricks to make themselves seem stronger/faster/scarier then they actually were, to be based on the mental equivalent of presence?
You lost me their, you know if it had been called the ninja trick pool no one would have complained, everyone is hung up on the term Ki and not what is actually being done with it. Ninja tricks let the ninja do things that make them faster (extra speed boost, massive jumps), stronger (bleeding attack, pressure points), and scarier (disguise and invisibility making their attacks come from nowhere.) This is all powered by how much of an impact their presence makes on people not some inner mental mystic power they use to make magic.
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Odd, I was thinking it was the ninja making the laws of physics sit in a corner, much the way sorcerers do: through sheer force of personality, or the "Because I'm telling the laws of physics to cow-tow beneath my mighty todger." approach.
Unlike the sorcerer, who uses their personality to throw fireballs, the ninja tells gravity, sound, and several degrees of logic to shut up.
They aren't as good at telling the laws of physics that they can dive under a burning tractor, because the ninja is also concerned with sneaky-back-stabbing-dirtbag shenanigans, that are the basis for their primary jobs: gathering information and killing people.
well maybe they should use charisma for something else but not for ki then
Maye the ninja is more something like a Jedi/Sith?
And Ki points are really force points?
Ninjas can jump higher, attack faster, move faster, a lot of similar things. There is even a choking attack ( at least something similar), only the lightning is missing.^^
Odd, I was thinking it was the ninja making the laws of physics sit in a corner, much the way sorcerers do: through sheer force of personality, or the "Because I'm telling the laws of physics to cow-tow beneath my mighty todger." approach.
Unlike the sorcerer, who uses their personality to throw fireballs, the ninja tells gravity, sound, and several degrees of logic to shut up.
They aren't as good at telling the laws of physics that they can dive under a burning tractor, because the ninja is also concerned with sneaky-back-stabbing-dirtbag shenanigans, that are the basis for their primary jobs: gathering information and killing people.
You can't train to be a sorceror, no one can train you have presence you either have it or you don't. no one can train themselves to be bill clinton or mozart or johnnie cohcran, you either have or you dont, no amount of training or mediation is ever going to give you presence.
Ninja's are all about training, whether fictional and fanatasy, a ninja is the ultimate manufactured warriors. half the myths about ninjas are about the intensity of thier training.
Other than working for hire mythical stories about monks and ninja are practically identical. young men are brought into a clan/temple where there minds and bodies are honed.
making ki cha is trying to fit a square peg into a round whole. Every cultural conception of Ki in recorded human history is pretty much wisdom.
There is not a single tradition of Ki that functions the way charisma functions in our real world understanding or pathfinding. Development of Ki is never somthing spontaneous or fluid in the way tradition cha powers are, like poerty, music or oration.
Modern Ninjas ie, CIA Special activities Division doesnt give a rats about cha. its physical ability and mental toughness ( read again wis).
you don't need cha to blend in, in fact the opposite, the best operative is the person who blends in with the background, who disapeares. who live somewhere and just be un notices.
Again the point of the ninja is to go unnoticed, it's not be james bond. it's to be the spy, to be somewhere and have no one remember you were there. absoultely nothing to do with presence.
It's a silly immersion breaking idea, whose sole purpose is to make cha more useful. i dont have a problem making cha more useful but this is the wrong way to go about it.
I think all the whining and arguing is pretty useless now.
The book is in print and soon we will all knonw what they changed or not.
Untill then its like waiting for Christmas.
If they changed it to WIS, i will have to make a new ninja concept and start whining myself about how Paizo can listen to whiners in such a way.
A ninja with WIS as a main stat would just be ridiculous, since its countering the weak rogue type will save and akig it very strong there.
Wouldnt fit into the whole concept that stands behind this type of character as it was ever since.
Some here should just play an lawful evil monk and take levels in assasin, if they don´t see the differences.
Maybe they should give you the option of selecting Charisma or Wisdom to determine the size of your Ki Pool, etc. Then both sides of the debate can be happy, it adds some choice and versatility, and it broadens the character concepts that can be made.
well maybe they should use charisma for something else but not for ki then
Stop calling it Ki then, don't get so hung up on the name of the pool of points.
@ikarinokami's, for one, where Ki comes from means zero to this conversation, it is only named such so that it has an already established game mechanic, ninja Ki and monk Ki have absolutely nothing to do with each other, they are probably a different force entirely, just both can be used to accomplish the same actions.
Sure One of the myths about ninjas is how hard they train, the rest go along the lines of being masters of disguise, able to disappear in an instant, moving through walls like ghosts, walk on water, and a whole host of other things they did to seem more threatening, you ever think maybe the myth about training their bodies to be able to perform such feats wasn't also just malarkey?
Ninja's trained their bodies but did not train to harden their minds to perform extraordinary tasks, they trained their minds to be able to screw with their opponents head. If you shoot a mythical ninja with a bullet he dies, he doesn't have some mystical ability to stop it, what he does have is the ability to make you think your bullets are ineffective so you stop trying to shoot him.
It takes different levels of presence to pull this stuff off (sometimes less presence is better sometimes a lot is needed). You must drop your level of presence to go unnoticed, but must be well noticed when your assuring your enemy his bullets are going right through you.
meh wisdom still fits better say what you will. your just speculating to. you don't know how it was intended. charisma sure it fits for bluff intimidate but not for focuseing the mind and its ki thats what they called it it works just like monk ki except that so its ki. its already set in stone now anways doesn't matter all that much to me but still wisdom fits better.
ninjas never struck me as all that charismatic. anyways heck if they based it off the fantasy ninja alot of those guys are not charismatic at all a good portion don't talk. sure intimidation is used but anyone well trained with a sword and pointing it at you is intimidating.
the only arguement i see for your side is the ninja spy types and just like i do with rogues i prioritize stats based on how i want to play my rogue.
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Nonsense about not training charisma.
Tell that to actors and actresses, politicians, musicians, and any other profession based on charisma.
Modern CIA operatives are actually more dependent on intelligence than anything, mental durability, and force of personality are secondary attributes. They use their intelligence, knowledge of how to manipulate people, to get them to do what the CIA wants, that is what the CIA uses. To think otherwise is to not understand how the spy game works.
Besides the modern ninja is more accurately described as modern special ops forces, the Seal teams, Marine Scouts, Green Berets, Army Rangers, and elite SWAT teams of the world. Small groups of specially trained warriors who gather information and win in conditions otherwise considered impossible to deal with.
Most of the government employees I mentioned, take Iron Will as a feat.
You mean the iron braiwashed feat, since their brain probably was eaten in the occult practises that made them government employees. Hence they are now some kind of ghoul or something similar actually.
Those in favor of Wisdom being the ki-stat, what would you guys do with the rogue then? I mean, to make it competetive once Ultimate Combat is released and PFS is inundated with ninjas. The only thing going for rogues then will be trapfinding and you can get that AND a slew of cool abilities and spells by going bard or ranger.
IMO the ninja should have been a more visible rogue archetype, and the rogue would have a mirror mechanic to the "ki pool" - remember the 3.5 Factotum with its inspiration pool? Something like that, based off either intelligence or charisma, ideally intelligence. Balance to taste.
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You mean the iron braiwashed feat, since their brain probably was eaten in the occult practises that made them government employees. Hence they are now some kind of ghoul or something similar actually.
Really hard to do that to soldiers, especially since their training is often to bring out their best attributes, psychologically speaking, or to hammer home several very good attributes.
The only ones that are weird enough to be considered inhuman are Marines, but they are still often decent folk all things told. The CIA are probably the only branch that I would consider evil enough to make people into undead.
@The Shaman, I disagree, only modern ninjas (i.e. Naruto) are really visible, let's face it, most of the highly visible ninjas aren't very powerful, and they are generally terrible at their job, spending hours upon hours fighting one guy who would have been easier to kill if they had stuck to the ninja ways, and just offed the guy in his sleep.
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I think all the whining and arguing is pretty useless now.
The book is in print and soon we will all knonw what they changed or not.
Untill then its like waiting for Christmas.
If they changed it to WIS, i will have to make a new ninja concept and start whining myself about how Paizo can listen to whiners in such a way.
A ninja with WIS as a main stat would just be ridiculous, since its countering the weak rogue type will save and akig it very strong there.
Wouldnt fit into the whole concept that stands behind this type of character as it was ever since.Some here should just play an lawful evil monk and take levels in assasin, if they don´t see the differences.
Yeah, I do not see the point in Wisdom as a main stat. You can already create a monk of various flavors with Wisdom. Plus, the Wisdom stat just really overpowers the ninja in comparison to the rogue. The ninja having a slight MAD dependency (with a non useful stat) is the main factor in keeping the classes reasonably close in balance.
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Those in favor of Wisdom being the ki-stat, what would you guys do with the rogue then? I mean, to make it competetive once Ultimate Combat is released and PFS is inundated with ninjas. The only thing going for rogues then will be trapfinding and you can get that AND a slew of cool abilities and spells by going bard or ranger.
Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure Charisma will stay as the main statistic of ninjas, exactly because of rogues. Some semblance of balance at least.
Using Rogues is hardly a good arguement to why it should be Cha. If Ninja were Wis based what would I do with the Rogue? The same thing everyone does while the Ninja is Cha based...the same thing most people did before the Ninja even existed in Pathfinder - I flip the page and look for a decent class to play.
I don't like it when people try to use the Rogue as an example of why the Ninja is too good or shouldn't get better etc. the core Rogue is an underwhelmngly pointless class. The Ninja is an alternative Rogue class and I know some feel this should mean it is just a viable alternativ to the ROgue but no more powerful, but be realistic here - What is the point in making an alternative version of a crap class if you are not going to make it an improvement to a class very few people want to play? You just end up with another class to throw on the Rogue and Monk pile 'Exciting news everyone! We have spent time and effort making a whole new Rogue which is pretty much the same and suffers the same deficiencies as the original to ensure no one is upset'.
Make the Ninja a cool class to play, screw the Rogue, he has been since day one anyway. Once the Ninja is up, running and doing ood maybe finally Paizo will go back to the original Rogue class and make it desirable.
As for the Wise/Cha debate. Of course I would like it to be Wis, it makes sense which is a good reason, but lets be honest, the reason people want it Wis is because then you can have decent saves at the same time as enhancing your Ki - it's a winning situation, especially given how crap Ninja saves are.
But, if it stays Cha I won't lose any sleep over it, I like having a decent Cha anyway so will accept this attempted handicap happily if they insist on keeping it.
First of all i have to say, im tired of all this "the rogue is so screwed" talk. I´ve been playing rogues ever since very successfully and with great fun. A rogue is not made to stand in first row in combat, neither for continuous 1vs1, although this depends on oponents. Rogues have their own way of combat, thats why they have Sneak Attack and stealth and a lot of other stuff.
Just imagine you are playing a character that is essentially weaker as others, even if he has STR 30 or whatever. The hierarchy in this games has always been magic is stronger, then pure fighter classes then the rest. but it has also always been the fact that the rest gets to do a lot of fun stuff the others suck at.
It seems to me this debate goes much deeper than that though, you guys are not content with monk either. You just want some class really powerful but you dont want a fighter or a mage. Then you cannot uderstand that Ki is just a term and as it is its only class abilities where ki points rule the limit of applications. No matter what stat they come from. You talk about balance but you dont see the rules of saving throws.
Ninjas saving throws are just fine, they match the other classes. And if you dont go and build a katana STR ninja your dps is also fine.
@Kais: "or to hammer home several very good attributes". Just think about this sentence, in the land of freedom and equality, killing people and suppressing their beliefs and traditions as well as their right on freedom and economic wellfare is regarded as good attributes?
I won´t go into this topic further since here is no place for politics.
Just thin twice and try to understand the viewpoint of others more before shooting out your "pride".
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First of all i have to say, im tired of all this "the rogue is so screwed" talk. I´ve been playing rogues ever since very successfully and with great fun. A rogue is not made to stand in first row in combat, neither for continuous 1vs1, although this depends on oponents. Rogues have their own way of combat, thats why they have Sneak Attack and stealth and a lot of other stuff.
Just imagine you are playing a character that is essentially weaker as others, even if he has STR 30 or whatever. The hierarchy in this games has always been magic is stronger, then pure fighter classes then the rest. but it has also always been the fact that the rest gets to do a lot of fun stuff the others suck at.
It seems to me this debate goes much deeper than that though, you guys are not content with monk either. You just want some class really powerful but you dont want a fighter or a mage. Then you cannot uderstand that Ki is just a term and as it is its only class abilities where ki points rule the limit of applications. No matter what stat they come from. You talk about balance but you dont see the rules of saving throws.
Ninjas saving throws are just fine, they match the other classes. And if you dont go and build a katana STR ninja your dps is also fine.
@Kais: "or to hammer home several very good attributes". Just think about this sentence, in the land of freedom and equality, killing people and suppressing their beliefs and traditions as well as their right on freedom and economic wellfare is regarded as good attributes?
I won´t go into this topic further since here is no place for politics.
Just thin twice and try to understand the viewpoint of others more before shooting out your "pride".
People are not after some uber powerful class. What they want is flavourful classes to be on par with others. The Rogue is a great concept, mechanically he is redundant.
People love the idea of that stealthy, sneaky guy getting around the place and also causing mayhem in fights. But mechanically it falls short. That is why 'Rogues are screwed' is often mentioned. Yes, you played a Rogue successfully and had fun, good for you, that doesn't change the fact that a Bard and Ranger would offer similar number of skills to play with and are a huge asset in combat compared to the Rogue. The fact that you can have fun playing the Rogue does not change the fact he is a flawed design - Hell, the poor buggers only ability to keep him as 'needed' was the ability to detect magic traps and even that is given to Ranger and Bard archtypes now.
Honestly, how often has someone asked what the party needs and get a reply 'hmm, well we have no one to detect traps...be a Rogue' that was pretty much the reason for having a Rogue in th party, and now that is no longer there.
As a Rogue trying to move around the field to get the sneak attack is hardwork and when you get there you get to attack once, after that the mob (assuming they are not of animal Int) can easily shift around to avoid full attacks against it from the Rogue, meaning you are forever shifting along getting a single attack in to do sneak attack damage. God forbid you end up hitting a mob without sneak atk boost because then you are poking things with a tooth pick. If you are lucky enough to have a DM who lets you go to town at the back of a mob then that's great, but that is an act of kindness and not what most have to deal with.
Why is everyone so concerned that the Ninja will make the Rogue pointless? Because mechanically the Ninja does exactly what everyone wanted to do with a Rogue - he can jump ridiculous distances, climb castle walls, he can disappear in plain sight popping up again to kick butt...he can even get full atks off with SA! Mechanically the Ninja achieves the flavour of the Rogue.
The downside is being more MAD, as I said, of course everyone wants it to be Wis because then the Ninja gets to improve his Will saves which suck (and they do suck. That does not mean it is unbalanced, Fighter saves suck too, it's just that they suck as intended, at lvl 4 it is +1) making it Will gives the Ninja an advantage of having a decent Wis save and giving them their class ability which would be icing on the cake and not required, but while not required, of course everyone would want it to be Wis.
Lets face it, if the original design had Ninja Ki based on Wis no one who wants to play a Ninja would be saying 'aww geez, I wish it was based on Cha instead of stupid old Wis'
The fact it is Cha is not a big deal, just means the Ninja is pushed into having a decent Cha (which many Rogues don't bother with) which means the Ninja is now a quick talking smooth operator...just like a Rogue should be.
A Katana Str ninja is not needed thanks to their ability to actually effectively make use of SA, it is just a fun different kind of Ninja than the expected TWF. Despite my issues with the Rogue, I am not actual some power gaming junky who chooses a design to be the absolute best it can be in combat. Course, I would still expect him to out damage a TWF Rogue by some way.
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@Kais: "or to hammer home several very good attributes". Just think about this sentence, in the land of freedom and equality, killing people and suppressing their beliefs and traditions as well as their right on freedom and economic wellfare is regarded as good attributes?
The only force I mentioned that actually operates on our home land on a regular basis, are SWAT teams. The FBI also works exclusively here, but I didn't mention them, even if they also have their own elite combat units.
No, the attributes I was talking about are the Values of each branch.
Army:
Loyalty.
Duty.
Respect.
Selfless Service.
Honor.
Integrity.
Personal Courage.
Marines/Navy:
Honor.
Courage.
Commitment.
Air Force:
Integrity first.
Service before Self.
Excellence in all we do.
Those are good attributes that every soldier, sailor, marine, and airman have to learn, if they don't practice those values, then they tend to be removed before they leave basic training, as they are incapable of operating as a unit.
The Army one isn't as hard to remember as you'd think, as you can basically use it to spell out Leadership(L.D.R.S.H.I.P.), so it's very easy to remember.
There are no politics to be had here and my pride has nothing to do with this. I'm pretty sure the FBI and CIA have something similar, most police units, and subsequently their SWAT teams, have To Protect and Serve, generally speaking this is talking about "the people", but it doesn't always work out that way.
