Flurry of Stars for a start, Ki Charge another. Find me an existing fictional stereotype that indulged in gratuitous volumes of thrown projectiles in short timeframe. I can't recall any figure who ws noted for spamming darts or daggers the ninjas are stereotyped to do. Accuracy tends to be the more common element.Off the top of my head?
Bullseye
Arsenal
Gambit
Longshot
'sterotypical gambler card thrower'
Mersiel
JaraxelNot a ninja among them.
I'd say other various superheroes fit the description of a ninja, not rogue or monk, including:
DaredevilNightwing
Snake Eyes/Stormshadow/ etc. G.I. Joe ninjas
I think using the actual Ninja might better express these sort of characters.
Most of the best ninja tricks require the burning of a Ki point.
A mechanical choke point put placed there to make sure it only works for the ninja is not a good reason.Every one of those can be made to work without the ki pool, everyone. Most mimic rogue talents anyhow.
Will this matter if Ultimate Magic makes a ki pool available to everybody?
And if most ninja tricks mimic rogue talents, then what is this whole Asians beat West thing about?
And if most ninja tricks mimic rogue talents, then what is this whole Asians beat West thing about?
It is about an unnecessary completion to make an archetype something it is no, based off its name not game mechanics or any need to do so. They are rogue talents but, ya know..different so those Gaijin rogues can't have them.
Paizo put the Asian /non Asian wall there, not me. I just want it removed.
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So the ninja can take one rogue talent.Good point, and easy to miss. Well they can take one rogue talent and one advanced rogue talent (which must be an advanced talent and can't be a normal talent).
However it still leaves a bit of a mess longterm that designers will need to watch for. Here is another downside to not just using rogue talents. Any new talents in future products will need to be evaluated for the ninja as well and if they should also be selectable as a Ninja Trick.
And the Ninja gets the 'pull any rogue or ninja talent out of their hat' trick.
If they were rogue talents, they'd not have to worry about future ninja talents. just like they don't need to worry about new Samurai orders.
So the ninja can take one rogue talent.Good point, and easy to miss. Well they can take one rogue talent and one advanced rogue talent (which must be an advanced talent and can't be a normal talent).
However it still leaves a bit of a mess longterm that designers will need to watch for. Here is another downside to not just using rogue talents. Any new talents in future products will need to be evaluated for the ninja as well and if they should also be selectable as a Ninja Trick.
And the Ninja gets the 'pull any rogue or ninja talent out of their hat' trick.
If they were rogue talents, they'd not have to worry about future ninja talents. just like they don't need to worry about new Samurai orders.
Matthew seems to know what hes talking about.
Its interesting because the people that are disagreeing are only disagreeing because they dont think a ninja can be done with a normal rogue.
Tell me if these tricks were attached to the rogues talents would you feel that way? because seriously the tricks are better and rogues dont get them for no reason?
Sounds to me like ninja lovers just want ninjas to be special because rogues cant be ninjas for some reason... sounds like a bad arguement to me.
Smoke bombs. Well, to use a recent example, The Cape isn't a ninja, and this isn't really a 'pure ninja' trick, yet the rogue can't use it. Edit, and the Great Kosmo(s) have been using it long before.
Actually, assuming the designer's plans don't change, the rogue would be able to use it, in the same way that ninja's would be able to get rogue talents. (One of the designer's mentioned that it was intended that rogues will have access to something to let them pick a ninja trick. They would only be able to use it once per day because of the lack a rogue ki pool, but there are similar rogue talents that I think are similarly worse for the ninja (like Trap Spotter and Quick Disable) because they don't have some of the rogues class abilities.
Matthew seems to know what hes talking about.
Its interesting because the people that are disagreeing are only disagreeing because they dont think a ninja can be done with a normal rogue.
Tell me if these tricks were attached to the rogues talents would you feel that way? because seriously the tricks are better and rogues dont get them for no reason?
Sounds to me like ninja lovers just want ninjas to be special because rogues cant be ninjas for some reason... sounds like a bad arguement to me.
What I've seen in these arguments is how much and how variable the kinds of things that Ninjas should do. Most of the basic stuff van early fall under a rogue. Then you get various kinds of mystical lighter then air style movement and "kung-Fu fighting, HEAH!", which is more monk. You can even find wilderness ninjas that are more like rangers.
It's why I still maintain the best solution is 4 or 5 archetypes across several classes. This goes back to the old shinobi kit from 2e that could be applied to almost all classes, filling out a ninja clan's capabilities.
And if most ninja tricks mimic rogue talents, then what is this whole Asians beat West thing about?
It is about an unnecessary completion to make an archetype something it is no, based off its name not game mechanics or any need to do so. They are rogue talents but, ya know..different so those Gaijin rogues can't have them.
Paizo put the Asian /non Asian wall there, not me. I just want it removed.
There is 300 pages of content you have not seen yet. Why do you believe that this wall is there or staying there? There is no reason to think this. You are also badmouthing ninjas and samurai, but using a word like gaijin is a little rude. I'm Italian and Irish and there are plenty of racial slurs I take offense to. Gaijin isn't really a slur but it isn't the sort of word you would use in polite company. Sorry if you take offense but I have a bit of a history with stuff like this.
Yes, we have to keep that Asian/Non Asian wall intact. Can't have rogues taken all the best {better} ninja talents now can we?
This is just beyond silly and done for no reason.
You are also badmouthing ninjas and samurai, but using a word like gaijin is a little rude. I'm Italian and Irish and there are plenty of racial slurs I take offense to. Gaijin isn't really a slur but it isn't the sort of word you would use in polite company. Sorry if you take offense but I have a bit of a history with stuff like this.
No I am badmouthing bad design. I have no issue with the ninja archetype as a whole. The rogue talents but better need to go. They are barred from rogues for no reason other then they can not be allowed to be as cool.
You may not like my take, I dislike this take that screams "We are Asian so do it better and more magical then you non Asian classes" I want this avoided.
Why can't we have cool Asian feat, rage powers, fighting styles and rogue talents without them being Bared to the Non Asian archetypes? No one does this but the ninja and its rogue talents.
I have not bad mouthed the samurai as he does not bar other cavilers from useing his Asian flavored class "talents". The Ninja does for no reason then to be cooler.
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Thanks for the compliment.
I look at it this way.
A Magus fills a niche the bard and arcane duelist can't.
A Summoner fills a niche that the wizard can't.
What can a 'ninja' do that a 'rogue' can't? For every example of 'ninja' we can pull out a western character that can do the same dang thing.
The arcane duelist gets *different* class abilities than the bard. But they fill similar roles. The 'ninja' fills the exact same roles as the rogue. Just with an accent.
Jason said in the 'assassination is optional' thread that it's a ninja trick because they want the ninja alternate class to be able to fill different 'ninja' roles. Funny, if I want the rogue to fill the 'assassin' role, i have to wait 10 levels, or take a prestige class.
Let's also look at this quote:
"...historically they were also known for their ability to infiltrate the enemy, disguise themselves, sabotage the enemy's fortifications and weapons, and neutralize key enemies (aka assassinate). We tried to play off all of these themes to one extent or another without making any of them mandatory. You can build your ninja any way you want."
But as it's written now, I can build my rogue to infiltrate, disguise, sabotage, and (through the prestige class) assassinate. So I can build the rogue straight out of the box to be anything... but a ninja. They don't need to multiclass (wizard/sorcerer, arcane trickster) to get some magic, they don't need to prestige to assassinate, they get magic that's better than my two rogue talents, they get access to all of my rogue talents, they get as many skill points, Heck, they don't even need to take a single 'magic' talent and they get bonuses to jump, to acrobatics, extra speed and extra attacks.
So a ninja can be a damn good rogue (except for traps, but hey, UMD and a pair of wands take care of that. Heck, they can take Trapsense and get the free role to detect traps.) But there's something magic that makes a rogue unable to be a ninja.
@seeker, and I mean no disrespect: Calling the class a ninja may be what is hanging you up. The idea of adding ki represents a focus of training normal rogues do not have, both flavor and mechanically. A normal rogue can accomplish a variety of deeds no one else can, but it is still set in a framework that the class is a thief/fighter/scoundrel. The ninja class uses ki pool because 'ki', mechanically & fluffy, is about a training regiment that focuses on spiritual and physical perfection, internally. Not every ninja will be played this way, but the mechanics reflect this. They are really good at very few things, some of which is on the rogue list, but a lot of which is exclusive, thematically fitting and mechanically fitting. The ninja can replicate certain spells more often and of higher levels than a rogue, but a rogue can choose a much higher variety of spells. The ninja has access to powerful stuff, but the rogue is significantly more versatile. A PC cannot be a rogue/ninja, only one or the other. While the ninja will be better at a few things, the rogue can do so much more.
Ask yourself this question: would you have disliked the class so much if it had been a build, or if it was called a 'spirit/ki rogue' instead?
Again, I do not care what they call this archetype. As long as it gets better rogue talents that pretty much puts a "great talents"/"Lesser" talent wall I will dislike it.
Why is that wall there? Can anyone give me a reason other then "But it is a ninja" no other class does this, Not the barbarian, not the ranger not the caviler, none. Ninja tricks are rogue talents rogues are not cool enough to have. That is the only reason to not have them as rogue talents as they wish to keep a ninja..different and cooler.
Ninja's can be fantastic rogues, but rogues can never be ninja's as they are simply not cool enough.
That needs done away with. They are Rogue talents period.
Actually I think it is Seekers over done 'Asian things hate' rhetoric that is throwing things. Even if you change name of the kit it Flurblanot the main issues Seeker brings up would still apply.
The Flurblanot is getting cool and better things because it is supposed to be awesome. So awesome that a non-Flurblanot should not have it.
Seeker, I think if you want to make your point you need to back off the Asia hate/wall language. It really is distorting your valid balance/design concerns.
Hypothetically we could have the same problem happen in an archetype that is "replicating" a scottish highland warrior in the Barbarian class that gives cool Scottish powers that a both better and denied to the normal Barbarian, mainly because Scotts are awesome and unique :P (aren't they?).
You have a point, I do not hate Asian things.I keep saying that, but I do really hate the we need to make it different and often better just because it is Asian. And that does bug me and perhaps I rant on that dislike a bit to much.
If you go back and Look I was always on he side of Ninja archetype with cool ki rogue talents. But what did they do, they made the coll talents then for no reason barred them from anyone but a ninja.
The samurai I liked, as it did not bar anything, it allowed the cool Asian flavor of his orders to be used by caviler who did not have his archetype.
The ninja however steals all those cool Asian themed talents and bars them from being used by any archetype. You can only now make one flavor of Asian or mystic rogue, just one.
Allowing any archetype to take them does not lessen the ninja archetype at all, it did not lessen barba or rangers. It give you more options to bring that in.
they get access to all of my rogue talentsI fail to see how a max of two talents counts as all of them. Personally, I prefer the rogue who gets the trapfinding bonuses (because spamming from wands gets expensive) and doesn't have an artificial limit to how often he can do his tricks. Once a ninja spends his 1/2 level +cha mod in Ki points, he can't use most of his stuff. And seeing how many abilities use them, they can run out faster than most people would first think. The rogue is not hampered by this limit.
He can pick any of the existing rogue talents (however as you said only one of them).
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they get access to all of my rogue talentsI fail to see how a max of two talents counts as all of them. Personally, I prefer the rogue who gets the trapfinding bonuses (because spamming from wands gets expensive) and doesn't have an artificial limit to how often he can do his tricks. Once a ninja spends his 1/2 level +cha mod in Ki points, he can't use most of his stuff. And seeing how many abilities use them, they can run out faster than most people would first think. The rogue is not hampered by this limit.
Bleeding attack, combat trick, fast stealth, slow reactions, weapon training they all share. Feather fall is a rechargable major magic Choking bomb is as good as a second level spell (and rechargable) so that's another major magic. Forgotten trick puts any rogue trick in their arsenal for 1 ki. Hidden Weapons, well you need a prestige class for that. Ki charge is a half power fireball. Pressure points gives ability damage. Shadow clone is again, better than major magic, and rechargable. Smoke Bomb is obscuring mist boosted. Sudden Disguise is major magic again, and rechargable. Vanishing trick is at least equal to a second level spell (WotC's swift invisibility was first level, but only lasted for one round and Ventriliquism is major magic again.
Advanced tricks.. See Invisibilty is a second level spell, invisible blade is at least a 3rd level spell (and that's being generous) Mix vanishing trick with shadow split and you have a 5th level spell.
ALL of these tricks above (except ki bomb), if they cost ki, still get a free usage. So that's basically multiple usages of major magic as ninja powers. What's left that you'd want more than two rogue tricks? Ledge walker? Only if you worry about being flat footed. Acrobatics master takes care of everything else, is better, and costs 1 point of ki. Finesse Rogue? Really? Quick Disable? MAybe. Resiliancy? Rogue crawl? Just use Vanish and then they can't see you when you get up and move. Stand up? Surprise attack maybe. Now the Advanced Rogue talents might be worth grabbing, but if I think I might need a rogue talent, I'm going to grab forgotten talent, suck it up and burn a point of ki.
None of this changes that the ninja, as written, is better than the rogue, because it has an accent. If it was called 'cutpurse' people would be screaming to high heaven.
@Matthew Morris:
Forgotten trick puts any rogue trick in their arsenal for 1 ki.
Forgotten trick specifically calls out that it does not include master tricks or rogue talents.
@Seeker:
You know... I agree. In the sense that I want all classes to be fair and well balanced against each other. Unlike you, however, I have faith that the set of new rogue talents that will be made available in Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat (together with Core and APG) eclipse the choices available to the ninja manifold. I also have faith in Paizo that they will add rogue talents that are significant in power and comparable to those available to the ninja.
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@Matthew Morris:
Forgotten trick puts any rogue trick in their arsenal for 1 ki.Forgotten trick specifically calls out that it does not include master tricks or rogue talents.
@Seeker:
You know... I agree. In the sense that I want all classes to be fair and well balanced against each other. Unlike you, however, I have faith that the set of new rogue talents that will be made available in Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat (together with Core and APG) eclipse the choices available to the ninja manifold. I also have faith in Paizo that they will add rogue talents that are significant in power and comparable to those available to the ninja.
I've been misreading it all this time. *kicks self* Thanks for pointing that out. I still feel that the ninja tricks are better than the rogue talents, and even the base ki pool is worth at least two skill points.
Lorekeeper, that is the thing, these ARE rogue talents. This alt class is a rogue archetype. Why is there a line between his talents and those Every other rogue of any type anywhere can have?
That is what bugs me, these are better and barred for no reason. It causes an unneeded complication, some of em even work just like talents we have now.
But now we get two lists of rogue talents for no real reason.
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ALL of these tricks above (except ki bomb), if they cost ki, still get a free usage.Shadow clone and Ki charge do NOT get a free usage.
And to be honest, I'd still prefer a rogue to a ninja in most cases (in a caster poor party I'd take the ninja). One good dungeon crawl and the ninja is going to run out of juice, unless he has taken the extra ki feat a few times. Meanwhile the rogue is taking extra talents instead.
The ninja has a more mystical basis for his abilities, which fits the popular image of the class. The rogue is more of a non-magical skill based character (I am counting talents as uses for skills).
Yeah I know Ki charge doesn't. I got that right at least. Still. If you make them all rogue talents, give the ninja a ki pool and make ki pool a feat, you solve a dozen problems. ninja still give up the trap stuff for their mystic stuff, rogues get access to these new talents, ninja get access to the rogue talents, and make a feat (I posted two) to allow non-ninja/monks to get ki. Solves headaches, increases flexibility.
I'd appriciate your input on my 'ninja archtype here, Jason.
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Thank you for looking it over.
I believe you and I are looking to different directions. my ninja does lose two useful skills, a weapon proficiency, and two skill points (and, of course, evasion) in exchange for the ki pool. The plus side becomes that the ninja tricks become rogue tricks, and rogues can spend a feat to get ki (just like the ninja can spend a ninja trick to gain evasion). This would allow more rouge like 'batman' builds. It also would prevent the need to include 'this is also a ninja trick' after every new rogue trick that comes out. Like we've seen in the discussion on the APs, Paizo does hold space at a premium. :-)
I double checked, and, with the exception of the 'noble fighter' in the old campaign setting, I do not see a Paizo publication where skill points were changed either (ignoring Unearthed Arcana since that's not a Paizo product). So I'll conceed that's a new mechanic, but so is 'this ability works as long as you are psionically foc- er as long as you have one point of ki in your pool'.
If I'm mistaken, please correct me, but you're trying to keep the ninja different from the rogue, yes? I'm seeing the ninja as an archtype of the rogue, and the unique mechanics of 'rogue tricks' (vs say, weapon training or armor training) make it possible to use rogue tricks to allow a character to pick up abilities more to their concept.
Your concept of making them always cost ki further seperates the ninja from the rogue, which is a bad thing to me.
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Well no.
She could use Ki. Ninjas do not have to be asian. She could for instance be a fate bound assassin using mystical techniques inspired by the thanatosic traditions of indea, greece and ancient celtic myth.
Great, i'll play a Greek ninja whith his traditional weapon like kama, katana, nunchaku, sai, shuriken, siangham, and wakizashi. "Fear the wrath of Hades' nunchaku !"
Oh, wait. Maybe there will be a ninja archetype which change the weapons proficiencies ? Then I'll use a variant class with variant weapon just to have the rogue talents I want, with an archetype of greek assassin which give me back the weapons I want. Or maybe the greek assassin will have his own variant class, because the myths around rogue, ninja, and greek assassin are not the same ?
*applauds*
Nope, adding more completion to get around a wall you made for no good reason is not helping.
I have yet to hear anyone give a good reason why they can not just be rogue talents? They steal pretty heavy from the talent list anyhow and the Ninja is a rogue and many of those ninja tricks are not just ninja tropes. Keeping them as two lists even limits future support for the ninja and opens up all kinds of cans best left closed "Is this a rogue talent or ninja trick?"
Nothing at all is gained by two lists, except it makes the ninja seem like it must be uber elite and just better then anyone else.
The idea I threw out in another thread was make them rogue talents with a ki pool requirement. This way in the future you don't have to maintain two lists, and it makes some interesting rogue/monk combos.
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*applauds*Well no.
She could use Ki. Ninjas do not have to be asian. She could for instance be a fate bound assassin using mystical techniques inspired by the thanatosic traditions of indea, greece and ancient celtic myth.
Great, i'll play a Greek ninja whith his traditional weapon like kama, katana, nunchaku, sai, shuriken, siangham, and wakizashi. "Fear the wrath of Hades' nunchaku !"
Oh, wait. Maybe there will be a ninja archetype which change the weapons proficiencies ? Then I'll use a variant class with variant weapon just to have the rogue talents I want, with an archetype of greek assassin which give me back the weapons I want. Or maybe the greek assassin will have his own variant class, because the myths around rogue, ninja, and greek assassin are not the same ?
*Applauds*
I asked if the Ninja/Samurai (and Gunslinger) could be dropped on another thread. Unfortunately the offical response was no. So I think we're stuck with this brown smelly stuff.
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The idea I threw out in another thread was make them rogue talents with a ki pool requirement. This way in the future you don't have to maintain two lists, and it makes some interesting rogue/monk combos.
Justin,
I'd not even mind if a ki pool could 'refuel' a rogue talent like major magic. I posted elsewhere a feat to give a rogue (or anyone really) a ki pool. I don't mind the ninja's psionic focus when he has a point in the pool, but they *should* be rogue talents. There's no reason not to.
And a very good alteration you made Matthew.
Personally I think Paizon missed important and valuable material when they chose to ignore the 3.5 Psionic material. While Psionic Focus may have been a bit clumsy, the route to mystically powered non-caster characters was not. For example Up The Wall, Speed of Though, and Psionic Lead all help cover various mystic warrior tropes. I know people will cry feat tax, but that is what the odd level character feats are for, customizing a character beyond the powers of the base class. For most that seems to mean stomping a fighters heels to pick an exotic combat style.
I'm actually a little sad that the Ninja is not giving off a vibe that such a system is forthcoming in UC. It would be the perfect place for it, wher people ate going to be looking for various "solutions" to fill in warrior character concepts.
The idea I threw out in another thread was make them rogue talents with a ki pool requirement. This way in the future you don't have to maintain two lists, and it makes some interesting rogue/monk combos.Justin,
I'd not even mind if a ki pool could 'refuel' a rogue talent like major magic. I posted elsewhere a feat to give a rogue (or anyone really) a ki pool. I don't mind the ninja's psionic focus when he has a point in the pool, but they *should* be rogue talents. There's no reason not to.
It seems like a good idea, although I am hesitant to give a class ability like that out as a feat. Otherwise exactly I have no problem with the ki pool letting the ninja use an ability a second time or increase it in some way. (I will just counter with a fireball.:))
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It seems like a good idea, although I am hesitant to give a class ability like that out as a feat. Otherwise exactly I have no problem with the ki pool letting the ninja use an ability a second time or increase it in some way. (I will just counter with a fireball.:))
Maybe it's my psicrystal talking, but I don't see it as grabbing a class as a feat, anymore than I see taking Wild Talent is stomping on the psion's turf. Taking the feat for a ki pool would then allow the rogue to grab rogue talents that require ki either to use or recharge, just as taking Wild Talent would allow the rogue to take [Psionic] feats and use them. Heck, in some ways my pool feats are weaker than Wild Talent, since the ki by itself doesn't do anything. a character with Wild Talent can at least gain/maintain psionic focus. A rogue (fighter/wizard etc) doesn't get the acrobatics checks, extra attacks, movement bonuses, etc that the ninja does. To me, it's no more 'taking a class feature' than taking a Martial Weapon Proficiency is taking from the fighter. The ninja's (both in my version and the playtest version) ki pool is better in exchange for class traits, but the rogue can play too.
This would also allow the creation of more archtypes. Imagine a fighter who swaps feats for rogue talents. Voila! He can burn a feat and get ki too.
The idea I threw out in another thread was make them rogue talents with a ki pool requirement. This way in the future you don't have to maintain two lists, and it makes some interesting rogue/monk combos.Justin,
I'd not even mind if a ki pool could 'refuel' a rogue talent like major magic. I posted elsewhere a feat to give a rogue (or anyone really) a ki pool. I don't mind the ninja's psionic focus when he has a point in the pool, but they *should* be rogue talents. There's no reason not to.
I don't think it will be necessary soon. The Paizo blurb on Ultimate Magic promises new mystical uses for the ki power - along with cryptic clues by a Paizo staff member that "pretty soon ki will be more common". So to extrapolate from that, I think Ultimate Magic will open ki pool to more classes (probably as a feat) - and the Ultimate Combat playtest in its current form has separate ninja tricks (rather than rogue talents) to have a testable, distinct class.
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I don't think it will be necessary soon. The Paizo blurb on Ultimate Magic promises new mystical uses for the ki power - along with cryptic clues by a Paizo staff member that "pretty soon ki will be more common". So to extrapolate from that, I think Ultimate Magic will open ki pool to more classes (probably as a feat) - and the Ultimate Combat playtest in its current form has separate ninja tricks (rather than rogue talents) to have a testable, distinct class.
You're more optimistic than I ;-). In any event, I think it is best to assume this is *not* the case, and lobby to have the class beaten into shape as an archtype.
I have this cartoon image of an inflatable ninja trying to inflate out of a box with me, seeker, etc trying to stuff him back in, and then there's like 8 people on a tire pump with a hose leading to the box pumping for all it's worth.
LOL, That made me laugh so hard man.
LOL!!!!
By the way the ninja with the ninja tricks section taken out is 799 words. This is keeping everything as written but not using ninja tricks.
I honestly think they called them that to justify calling the ninja anything but an archetype as it changes less things and has a smaller word count then some AGP archetypes.
Well if you want to multiclass a Ninja as a Rogue then you are going against RAW and it's homebrew.Umm what? Who has talked about that? You can't take a class twice.
You can't remove spellcasters and let anyone try to cast a spell, but some guy is trying to do just that. Personally, I'm going with the RAW for major things like this.
In other words, I think Ninja or Rogue, not levels of each. Too confusing.
Well if you want to multiclass a Ninja as a Rogue then you are going against RAW and it's homebrew.Umm what? Who has talked about that? You can't take a class twice.You can't remove spellcasters and let anyone try to cast a spell, but some guy is trying to do just that. Personally, I'm going with the RAW for major things like this.
In other words, I think Ninja or Rogue, not levels of each. Too confusing.
I don't think anyone has been serious about wanting to multiclass as both Ninja and Rogue for a while now. I'm not sure what you're trying to respond to but its coming across as a total non sequitur.
@ Jason Ellis 350, I did read it. Kind of confirms that there really isn't any good reason for the Rogue not to be able to sip at the Ninja pool with more then just a kinda-confirmed shot glass. The inverse applies as well. If the continuum is currently between a Nuclear Rogue (read Ninja) and a the 'slow and steady' chap we all know, then it would be very nice to see the in-between shaded.