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...Just look at [Samurai] weapon proficiencies, including Katana/Bastard Sword proficiency for free is like another Free Feat [compared to Cavaliers].No. It isn't. The Bastard Sword is martial weapon. Using it one-handed is exotic. Which is a half-ass feat anyway.
I`m bringing this up as it`s own thread because I`d like to have clarification on the above issue, and it`s really something broader than just the Samurai itself.
In the case of the Samurai, when I see Katana Proficiency listed, I am ASSUMING that is Exotic Proficiency, since they already have all Martial Weapons and that covers it`s use as a 2-Handed weapon (ala Bastard Sword, which it effectively is AFAIK). It`s been mentioned elsewhere that the vast majority of Samurai used Katana 2-Handed... In light of that, I don`t think Samurai need a free Exotic Proficiency in Katana (1-Handed) - Anybody who wants to do that, can take the Exotic Feat themselves... Everybody else uses them as Martial Weapons... Though with Heirloom Weapon Trait, you can easily gain Exotic Proficiency (1Handed) in that single Katana.
In the case of Rogues, they DON`T get all Martial Weapon Proficiencies, but I feel it`s a similar case... Do they really need Exotic Proficiency in Katanas (1-Handed)? Could they just be given MARTIAL Proficiency in Katanas (2-Handed)? Same thing goes for Heirloom Weapon Trait granting Exotic Proficiency.
Actually, I`m not even fully clear on the `Asian` weaponry as a whole, such as Naginata and Wakizashi which `for the purposes of the playtest` are treated as Glaives and Shortswords... which are Martial Weapons, so I don`t see why they need to be called out as different proficiences (beyond all Martial Weapons, which Samurai already get). I was under the impression that Paizos intent was for these weapons to work identically to `normal` weapons in the final version, or is there indeed an intention to give them special Exotic stats at some point? Or is the intent here that they will have identical STATS as BastardSword/Glaive/ShortSword, BUT be separate Exotic Proficiencies so that Ninjas can`t use Bastard Swords proficiently? (Ninjas have Short Sword proficiency AND Wakizashi, but not Naginate or Glaive).
I would want a clarification too, I don't know how the rule "For the katana, use the statistics and rules for a bastard sword." and having katana proficiency interact.
For Samurais, one handed katanas only make sense for cavalry (which is basically the elite). However the player characters are heroes, and should have the weapon proficiency of elite warriors, plus this Samurai is oriented to using mounts.
On the other hand Samurais are proficient with shields, if they can use the bastard sword one handed we are gonna see a lot of samurais with shields (or two-weapon-fighting, but I doubt it), I don't want Samurais for that.
I would give Samurais the Bastard Sword Exotic Proficiency and remove the shield proficiency (they can always multiclass), or maybe limit it to bucklers.Two handed katanas make sense for Ninjas, one handed not, imo (but they may need a replacement for the rapier)
"Classic" Rogues shouldn't get any proficiency in Katanas.
Samurai aren't as "mount-centric" as the european knight, there are much more difficult terrains and alot less space for the cavlary charges in japan, as compared to europe. They rode of course, but it wasn't necessarily a 'mounted only' warrior class.
Conversely alot more of them specialized in the bow, where the european knight was alot less likely to be tied to the bow (although it wasnt entirely uncommon)
I think you can reasonably figure that the words " for the purposes of play test " imply that they will be differentiated in some ways by the final edit.
I think leaving Ninjas with only Martial Katana proficiency is already a decent trade for Rapier.
Their Class Abilities don`t seem Crit-dependent, and Sneak Attack definitely isn`t.
Possibly giving them Scimitar would be reasonable... perhaps in place of any Katana proficiency, which was supposedly `noble only` and not necessarily needed for the `Ninja` trope.
Sorry if this crosses thread topics, but there`s no thread for `Asian Alt Class Cross-Over Topics`
Guys,There is no martial bastard sword proficiency. It is an exotic weapon. If you know how to use it then you can use it one or two handed and you have the exotic weapon proficiency for it.
However if you have all Martial weapon proficiencies {Like if your a full BAB class for the most part} then you can use it as a two handed weapon. You are not proficient in it, but know enough about two handed swords to make do.
Well how else do they gain it as a martial weapon? It is not on the chart and can only be learned by the feat{which allows it one or two handed}
So we know that you can use it as a martial weapon, but it is not listed as such. However it counts as a martial weapon, just as a fighter can pick up a dwarven waraxe and use it two handed.
Because his class allows him to use all Martial weapons.
The bastard sword is an exotic weapon they can be used as a martial weapon by those who 1: do not have the bastard sword feat and 2: can somehow use any martial weapon.
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This is just a thought. Now I don't know much about swords. If a Katanna is equivalent to the Bastard Sword in size and weight, then it makes sense to have you take Exotic Weapon Proficiency to be able to wield it one handed. the exotic weapon proficiency might represent the extra training you would need to wield a large blade one handed. After all you can already wield it two handed with a martial proficiency.
If a Katanna is equivalent to a long sword in size and weight, then it makes sense to give it the same statistics as a long sword.
A simple solution for those who say the katana is the best sword in the world so it should have better statistics would be to have regular grade weapons, and have a katana be a masterwork grade of a weapon.
Its just a thought.
Well real world and d&d or pathfinder stats have very little in common. It is a two handed weapon that takes a lot of skill and training to learn to use one handed correctly. Same with the longsword{pathfinder bastardsword} They are not the same size {Katana is smaller but not balanced the same way} all in all for game stats they are close enough in an abstract way. so using the same set of stats does fit, even if it makes some people have kittens.
Well this one made me look up the bastard sword in the Core Rulebook. I have not played a character that uses a bastard sword. I stick mainly with wizards and rangers when playing the game. The entry says; "A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon." Well the way I am reading it the new samurai character I made for this weekends game is proficient with all simple and martial weapons along with the katana, naginata, and wakizashi. So I asked my GM if that means since katana is specifically named does that mean I can use it one-handed or will I need to pick up EWP: katana. My GM said since it was named in the list he was going to effectively treat it as the samurai, and the ninja also, have EWP: katana without us having to spend a feat in getting it.
As they say the GM of the game has final say over the game they are running, but like the rest I think a clarification would be nice.
Katana is trained one handed for Iaido quite a bit, and it is no harder than two handed. My Sensei also teaches using two Katana at the same time for fighting :) The sword forms are quite nice to watch :)
I just watched "The Warriors Way" in wich all the warriors used Katanas one handed :)
Katana is trained one handed for Iaido quite a bit, and it is no harder than two handed. My Sensei also teaches using two Katana at the same time for fighting :) The sword forms are quite nice to watch :)
Leonardo the turtle had to get it from somewhere didn't he?
LMAO :) TMNT. Katanas are mostly one handed, two handed would be exotic I think. Many of the Katas are one handed. It is harder to use then 2 handed from what I have experienced in training.
I also think that a Samurai would naturally have them as part of the martial weapon proficiency as its part of the class to have them :)
Generally speaking 14th-19th century samurai were a much smaller breed of man than some giant aryan.
If your 6 foot plus and over 200 maybe swinging a katana one handed is 'easier' than trying to wrap around two giant ape arms.
However, It's quite apparent for the people who the weapon was designed, two handed was the norm, although one handed isnt uncommon, as a result that is why it is "mechanically" similar to the bastard sword in game.
LMAO :) TMNT. Katanas are mostly one handed, two handed would be exotic I think. Many of the Katas are one handed. It is harder to use then 2 handed from what I have experienced in training.
No. I don't know where you got this idea from but a Katana is primarily a two handed weapon. Some techniques involve using one hand only, and there are some schools that teach using a katana and wakisachi together, but these are the exception rather than the rule.
LMAO :) TMNT. Katanas are mostly one handed, two handed would be exotic I think. Many of the Katas are one handed. It is harder to use then 2 handed from what I have experienced in training.
I also think that a Samurai would naturally have them as part of the martial weapon proficiency as its part of the class to have them :)
Yeah, I have to agree with Brambleman. Katanas are mostly two handed, almost never one handed. Look at the hilt of a katana its designed to accomodate two hands, not one. Historically katana is a 2-handed weapon. Musashi, author of Legend of the Five Rings, was an exception to the rule, he was not school trained so much as self taught in his two weapon and one-handed style. Katana schools of his day taught primarily 2 handed use, except when first withdrawing the weapon from its sheath, as in iaijutsu.
And to Pendagast, its got nothing to do with the size of the smaller Japanese versus the 6 foot Aryan. The difference in sword wielding between a 5 foot tall person and 6 foot tall person is minimal at best. Now between a halfling and half-orc, there are differences, but between varying normal human sizes - not a difference at all.
GP
Samurai should have the capacity to wield them one-handed, stemming from the need to do so while riding a horse.
Ninja have no such need, and should content themselves with wielding it two-handed or spending a Feat.
heres my proposal for weapon equivalencies
Katana/Jian = sawtooth sabre
Kusari gama = meteor hammer (but slashing damage)
wakazashi/kodachi = shortsword (but slashing damage)
tantou = kukri
nodachi = greatsword
ninjato = nonexistant, real ninja used whatever weapons they could access at the time and were also members of the Bushi or warrior caste. meaning, a ninja could get away with wielding a katana just as easily as a samurai could.
I have to agree with Shuriken Nekogami -- Ninjato = nonexistent. Sure there were straight blades in Japan, but nothing called the ninjato. And there is no evidence, historically that ninja ever wielded a straight blade as opposed to a katana or anything else. Chain weapons and many others as well as katana. Ninjato only exists in D&D, not historical Japan. Since ninja were samurai, why not a samurai sword? Why must they wield something else, when they did not do so historically.
I have to agree with Shuriken Nekogami -- Ninjato = nonexistent. Sure there were straight blades in Japan, but nothing called the ninjato. And there is no evidence, historically that ninja ever wielded a straight blade as opposed to a katana or anything else. Chain weapons and many others as well as katana. Ninjato only exists in D&D, not historical Japan. Since ninja were samurai, why not a samurai sword? Why must they wield something else, when they did not do so historically.True, but the idea of the ninjato is something accepted into popular culture and when it comes down to it, that's the ninja of fantasy settings like the ones for Pathfinder and D&D. It may not be historically accurate, but we don't want to just give them proficiency with everything... perhaps just improvised weapon abilities, but there are feats for that, so... Anyway, I'm still not comfortable with the different sized curve blades having different threat ranges.
But what's wrong with being accurate up to the point of adding magic or ki powers. We don't need some made up weapon to make the ninja better fit to fantasy game. Ninja weapons best include shuriken, kama, kusarigama, katana, wakizashi, hankyu (half bow), all of which exist in Japanese culture as being real weapons. As soon as you add magical or ki powers it becomes fantasy well enough.
Also get rid of the pajamas, as that isn't truly ninja either.
I constantly hear the argument that "This is fantasy, so no need to reflect reality" - huh? Making it as close to realism helps maximize the suspension of disbelieve - as making a ninja close to its representation in reality. Add in ninja magic and now you've crossed over to a D&D/Pathfinder version, that's what makes it fantasy, not some ficticious weapon...
GP
Well real world and d&d or pathfinder stats have very little in common. It is a two handed weapon that takes a lot of skill and training to learn to use one handed correctly. Same with the longsword{pathfinder bastardsword} They are not the same size {Katana is smaller but not balanced the same way} all in all for game stats they are close enough in an abstract way. so using the same set of stats does fit, even if it makes some people have kittens.
Personally, I would use the elven curve-blade stats for the katana, and have one-handed use of it as an exotic weapon proficiency (but without Finesse if one-handed).
In my opinion, the ninja shouldn't even have katana proficiency. They should have ninjato proficiency.
The ninjato, or shinobigatana, was indeed a different weapon to the katana in respect that it would certainly be less damage. However, the way it was used was not incompatible with a katana - if you could use a ninjato, you could use a katana, while the opposite was not necessarily true (I trained in ninjato, not katana, so I don't know how easily you could use a ninjato if trained in katana, but I do know that you can use a katana if trained in ninjato having done so).
I'd imagine a ninjato to be stated out as a one-handed weapon that deals 1d6 with a 19-20/x2 crit or 1d8 and x2. Additionally, it should able to be wielded with the benefits of the weapon finesse feat.
If I used the elven curveblade stats for the katana, I'd treat the ninjato as a one- or two-handed longsword, that was finesseable if used two-handed.
So:
Katana = 1d10 18-20/x2, finesse if used two-handed, used one-handed with Exotic Weapon Proficiency (automatic to ninja and samurai).
Ninjato = 1d8 19-20/x2, finesse if used two-handed.
Wakisashi = 1d6 19-20/x2
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If I used the elven curveblade stats for the katana, I'd treat the ninjato as a one- or two-handed longsword, that was finesseable if used two-handed.So:
Katana = 1d10 18-20/x2, finesse if used two-handed, used one-handed with Exotic Weapon Proficiency (automatic to ninja and samurai).
Ninjato = 1d8 19-20/x2, finesse if used two-handed.
Wakisashi = 1d6 19-20/x2
Elven curveblade is 1d8, not 1d10.