In the interest of playtesting, I allowed two of my players to temporarily "switch out" their characters for a Ninja and a Rogue. The group consisted of five players. A Half Elven Cleric of Sarenrae (Healing and Sun), a Human Barbarian (Greataxe wielder), An Elven Wizard (Focus on utility and crowd control), a Human Ninja, and a Halfling Rogue.
This adventure is being played at level 8.
The first thing I noticed was the trouble the Ninja player had trying to decide on which statistic to "dump." It appears that in order to have Ninja that's good at *everything,* you need to have rather high scores on just about every statistic. Finally he decided to place the lowest score in Intelligence because the class has a high number of skills.
We still roll statistics in our games, so here is the Ninja player's statistic array: 10,12,14,15,16,17. The four Ninja Tricks he chose were Shadow Clone, Vanishing Trick, Wall Climber, and Fast Stealth. In choosing his tricks, the player wanted to try to balance his Ki use. Basically, he was looking at less than 10 Ki to use per day, so he chose two tricks that didn't spend Ki to balance against the two tricks that did.
The adventure was a home brew dungeon crawl. The Ninja decided to play the role of support scout and damage dealer. To that end he basically was able to keep up with the Rogue in front of the party while scouting. Ninja and Rogue were usually at least 60 feet ahead of the group.
In two instances, the Ninja set off traps that he didn't spot. In one of those instances, he failed his reflex saving throw. The Rogue player didn't take damage from either trap, while the Ninja player took half damage once, and full damage another time. It would appear that not having Evasion is a pretty big deal. At least in this case. At that point, the Ninja player (rather loudly) lamented that he should have taken the Rogue Talent: Trap Spotter instead of Fast Stealth.
From that point on, the Rogue took point.
The group had four combat encounters (no rest in between) during these sessions. The Ninja performed admirably. He either flanked with the Rogue (producing deadly results), or made excellent use of the Shadow Clone, and Vanishing Trick abilities when enemies were focused on him. He also developed a habit of vanishing, climbing a wall, and executing a death from above maneuver. He also had to be rather frugal with his Ki. He basically tried to limit himself to 2 points per combat, that way he could always keep one in reserve. He still ended up almost running completely out. Ki is a very precious commodity with the Ninja.
He was also a decent opportunist, bringing quick death to any creature that was severely wounded (our Barbarian player was rather angry that the Ninja player was "stealing his kills").
In another encounter with an enemy spellcaster (Evoker focused), the Ninja's lack of Evasion reared it's ugly head again when she blasted the group with an AoE spell.
In closing, I did not find that the Ninja character was necessarily better than the Rogue character. Different? Sure, but not better. Lack of Evasion is a major issue. The Rogue is also better at finding traps, and can also disable magical ones. I tried to pay close attention to the Light Steps ability. The Ninja player used it once to run over a rubble strewn field (difficult terrain). The ability seems *very* situational otherwise.
When I read the Ninja class, I thought that it would all but replace the Rogue. After a few sessions, I think that my assessment is wrong. Playtesting to this point shows that the Rogue can hold his own both in and out of combat.
our Barbarian player was rather angry that the Ninja player was "stealing his kills."
Sounds like a ninja to me! ;)
In all seriousness, thank you for the playtest report. Nice and thorough, with good antidotes.
We appreciate it.
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our Barbarian player was rather angry that the Ninja player was "stealing his kills."Sounds like a ninja to me! ;)
In all seriousness, thank you for the playtest report. Nice and thorough, with good antidotes.
We appreciate it.
+1. No major rants, but good, solid, playtesting without trying to "outdesign" the designers.
Here are some more playtest results from the Ninja class.
The players decided to put the class to the test by continuing to explore the dungeon and not allowing the Ninja player to rest and recharge his Ki. To recap, both spellcasters (arcane and divine) were still at above half strength in terms of spells. The Ninja was down to 1 point of Ki. The Ninja player desperately wanted to hold on to that point so that he could keep the bonus to acrobatic skills.
The Ninja player adopted a new tactic. He decided to remain in stealth mode, using his Fast Stealth ability to keep up with the party while remaining in the 'shadowed' area of the torch light. The Rogue player took point as usual, stealthing 60 feet ahead.
I found this interesting. A Ninja without Ki is less of a Rogue than a Rogue is. During exploration, the Rogue handled the lions share of the work.
There were two combat encounters. During these encounters, the Ninja remained hidden for the first round (or 2), and poisoned weapons, as well as making use of a Wand of Shield with his superior UMD skill. He did this to make up for his rather low AC (even compared to the Rogue). When he finally showed his face during combat, the battle was half over. The poison was not very effective, and pretty expensive. Suffice to say, the player wasn't happy with the poison use ability.
The second combat was the most interesting one. The Ninja was in stealth mode as usual, but he asked the party wizard to lay down a Grease spell in the middle of a group of baddies. The Ninja then made use of Fast Stealth and Light Step to deliver a *crushing* Sneak Attack on a bad guy. Of course, this drew the ire of other baddies, and they decided to gang up on the Ninja. The encounter went rather poorly at that point.
This sparked a serious out of character debate. The Ninja player insisted that he should not have been the focal point of the attacks. Obviously, I as the DM disagreed. This brings up an interesting point. When the Ninja has the attention of the bad guys, he seemed mug more vulnerable. Much like the Rogue. However, it would appear from this playtest that when he doesn't have the enemy's attention, and is able to be an opportunistic skirmisher, he is at his best...much like the Rogue.
Something else I'd like to point out. At 8th level, spellcasters have a lot more in the way of spell power than Ninjas have in Ki. That is to say that even after 6 combat encounters both casters still had at least one more encounter in them while the Ninja was sucking wind (for purposes of Ki, anyway).
That might have to do with the conservative nature of the players using spells, but I would respectfully submit that even using one Ki per encounter, the Ninja would still be almost out if Ki unless specifically built with Ki in mind. Not saying this is good or bad, but if you plan on playing a Ninja, you should expect to run out of Ki at some point and be prepared to execute 'Plan B' when you do.
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Very nice to hear this...Ninja ~ Rogue puts it where I see it, just with a different box o' tricks.
A Ninja needing to be adaptable & resourceful pretty much matches every description I've ever seen.
Hadn't thought about Grease + Light Steps. That's a nice trick, and potentially NOT immediately lethal if you use smoke, Invisibility, or some other means of distraction.
I'm just picturing a scene where the Ninja in the group is dressed like a peasant, not visibly armed, and encounters some humanoid enemies.
Wizard casts Grease or some other Difficult Terrain style spell
Ninja runs across it, hands up, yelling "Help, help, I'm being oppressed," Rolls Bluff check.
Enemies: "Fear not miss, we will save you from these ruffinas!"
Ninja: "Oh yeah, I almost forgot, SNEAK ATTACK, MO-FO!" <Vanish>
fantastic.
We made some 12th level character for a playtest this weekend
I really like that my thoughts were right when comparing ninjas to rogues Ninjas are cool but dont dominate the rogue
Here are some more playtest results from the Ninja class.
There were two combat encounters. During these encounters, the Ninja remained hidden for the first round (or 2), and poisoned weapons, as well as making use of a Wand of Shield with his superior UMD skill. He did this to make up for his rather low AC (even compared to the Rogue). When he finally showed his face during combat, the battle was half over. The poison was not very effective, and pretty expensive. Suffice to say, the player wasn't happy with the poison use ability.
Why was the AC lower for the Rogue? They can have the same armor. Plus, Shield is +4 AC more that Rogue might lack unless he too used the wand.
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Why was the AC lower for the Rogue? They can have the same armor. Plus, Shield is +4 AC more that Rogue might lack unless he too used the wand.Here are some more playtest results from the Ninja class.
There were two combat encounters. During these encounters, the Ninja remained hidden for the first round (or 2), and poisoned weapons, as well as making use of a Wand of Shield with his superior UMD skill. He did this to make up for his rather low AC (even compared to the Rogue). When he finally showed his face during combat, the battle was half over. The poison was not very effective, and pretty expensive. Suffice to say, the player wasn't happy with the poison use ability.
I can't speak for Sith's builds, but in my ninja builds, having to keep Charisma up starts damaging my ability to maintain a truly dominant Dex. By 8th level, I'd expect a ninja to be at least a full 2 points of Dex (i.e., 1 full point of modifier) behind the rogue - possibly more, depending on where magic item purchases are going.
He did this to make up for his rather low AC (even compared to the Rogue)
This is exactly why the ninja doesn't need armor and just an increasing miss chance.
Good testing but oddly your player didnt just play like a rogue when he ran out of ki, What could the rogue do in battle that the ninja couldn't? The ninja seems to have the same abilities plus some more, so once ki runs out your playing a rogue. Why was he having so much trouble?
He did this to make up for his rather low AC (even compared to the Rogue)This is exactly why the ninja doesn't need armor and just an increasing miss chance.
Good testing but oddly your player didnt just play like a rogue when he ran out of ki, What could the rogue do in battle that the ninja couldn't? The ninja seems to have the same abilities plus some more, so once ki runs out your playing a rogue. Why was he having so much trouble?
The Rogue in the party was mostly utility. Meaning that he didn't do TWF, he had a Mithral shield in combat. And his armor had a higher magical bonus. In addition, the Rogue had a higher dexterity than the Ninja did because of the Charisma dump. Our Rogue had an 8 Charisma...
I can't speak for Sith's builds, but in my ninja builds, having to keep Charisma up starts damaging my ability to maintain a truly dominant Dex. By 8th level, I'd expect a ninja to be at least a full 2 points of Dex (i.e., 1 full point of modifier) behind the rogue - possibly more, depending on where magic item purchases are going.Why was the AC lower for the Rogue? They can have the same armor. Plus, Shield is +4 AC more that Rogue might lack unless he too used the wand.Here are some more playtest results from the Ninja class.
There were two combat encounters. During these encounters, the Ninja remained hidden for the first round (or 2), and poisoned weapons, as well as making use of a Wand of Shield with his superior UMD skill. He did this to make up for his rather low AC (even compared to the Rogue). When he finally showed his face during combat, the battle was half over. The poison was not very effective, and pretty expensive. Suffice to say, the player wasn't happy with the poison use ability.
That is exactly right Shisumo. And the Ninja player tried to keep up bonuses with expensive gear. In the end, he scrapped and started over focusing on things he could use to maximize his UMD skill. Party Wiz would also buff him with spells when he could. By contrast, the Rogue just kept plugging along. He didn't need as much 'care and feeding' as the Ninja did.
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Here are some more playtest results from the Ninja class.
The players decided to put the class to the test by continuing to explore the dungeon and not allowing the Ninja player to rest and recharge his Ki. To recap, both spellcasters (arcane and divine) were still at above half strength in terms of spells. The Ninja was down to 1 point of Ki. The Ninja player desperately wanted to hold on to that point so that he could keep the bonus to acrobatic skills.
The Ninja player adopted a new tactic. He decided to remain in stealth mode, using his Fast Stealth ability to keep up with the party while remaining in the 'shadowed' area of the torch light. The Rogue player took point as usual, stealthing 60 feet ahead.
I found this interesting. A Ninja without Ki is less of a Rogue than a Rogue is. During exploration, the Rogue handled the lions share of the work.
There were two combat encounters. During these encounters, the Ninja remained hidden for the first round (or 2), and poisoned weapons, as well as making use of a Wand of Shield with his superior UMD skill. He did this to make up for his rather low AC (even compared to the Rogue). When he finally showed his face during combat, the battle was half over. The poison was not very effective, and pretty expensive. Suffice to say, the player wasn't happy with the poison use ability.
The second combat was the most interesting one. The Ninja was in stealth mode as usual, but he asked the party wizard to lay down a Grease spell in the middle of a group of baddies. The Ninja then made use of Fast Stealth and Light Step to deliver a *crushing* Sneak Attack on a bad guy. Of course, this drew the ire of other baddies, and they decided to gang up on the Ninja. The encounter went rather poorly at that point.
This sparked a serious out of character debate. The Ninja player insisted that he should not have been the focal point of the attacks. Obviously, I as the DM disagreed. This brings up an interesting point. When the Ninja has the attention of the bad...
+1! Another awesome playtest. Wish there was a way to flag these diamonds amid the sea of impulsive, non-playtest opinions. Keep up the great work, SithHunter!
Interesting, especially the last part with Grease/Light Step (which seems a huge ability they get for almost nothing... certainly AT MINIMUM it duplicates several Feats with additional immunity to effects). And that `scales up´ to many other effects, like Druidic Entangle or Spike Growth, to Arcane Pit Spells, Sleet Storm, etc.
I started thinking how that tactic could be used even better (in your situation) with Spring Attack (or Fly By Attack), but then I realized the Ninja has ANOTHER trick in their bag to help with such a tactic: The bonus to Acrobatics the player was so set on retaining. With some decent investment, this should let them JUMP over any area, making Spring Attack vs. Flat-Footed enemy. Wall Climbing could let them `land` on wall surfaces instead of the floor, as well. And once they can Fly, Fly-By Attack allowing any Standard Action opens even more optios, namely Cleaves and other ´special´ Standard Actions.
If you continue the playtest, I suggest you let the Ninja player rebuild their character in light of how they now know it plays... I don`t think it`s `multi-stat dependency` is REALLY all that horrible, but it`s definitely DIFFERENT than how one builds/plays a normal Rogue... With a chance to re-build, they can make better choices on selecting their strengths/weaknesses so that their weaknesses can be most EFFICIENTLY covered by other means (feats, gear, spells) and they manage to have SOME strengths with staying power (not as Ki dependent). You should probably remind them of the Extra Ki Feat, which should apply just as much to Ninjas as Monks... That might let them de-allocate from CHA to other stats if they want.
If you continue the playtest, I suggest you let the Ninja player rebuild their character in light of how they now know it plays... I don`t think it`s `multi-stat dependency` is REALLY all that horrible, but it`s definitely DIFFERENT than how one builds/plays a normal Rogue... With a chance to re-build, they can make better choices on selecting their strengths/weaknesses so that their weaknesses can be most EFFICIENTLY covered by other means (feats, gear, spells) and they manage to have SOME strengths with staying power (not as Ki dependent). You should probably remind them of the Extra Ki Feat, which should apply just as much to Ninjas as Monks... That might let them de-allocate from CHA to other stats if they want.
These are the feats that the Ninja player selected for this playtest:
Traits: Reactionary, Heirloom Weapon
1)Dodge
H)Improved Initiative
3)Toughness
5)Quick Draw
7)Mobility
The tricks were Shadow Clone, Vanishing Trick, Wall Climber, and Fast Stealth.
If he had to rebuild the character he would have gone with Power Attack and Extra Ki as feats (replacing Quick Draw and Mobility), and for Ninja Tricks, he *might* have gone with Weapon training (Katana) over Shadow Clone.
I asked him not to take Extra Ki for the initial build because I wanted to see how the Ninja would work on its own without a 'Feat Tax.'
As for stats, he would have increased his Charisma more for Ki, and lowered his Wisdom.
He would also have spent more on stat items, less on wands, more on armor enhancements and less on weapon enhancements. He would have done the same as before with miscellaneous items.
Another point: I asked him what he would take as his first Master Trick when he hit level 10. I thought it would be Evasion. He surprised me and said Assassinate! When I asked him why, he told me that the Assassinate ability was much cooler.
That's when it hit me...
Is a Ninja *better* than a Rogue? No. But is a Ninja *cooler* than a Rogue? AbsoFRIKKINlutely!
As always, your mileage may vary in your playtests :)
+1! Another awesome playtest. Wish there was a way to flag these diamonds amid the sea of impulsive, non-playtest opinions. Keep up the great work, SithHunter!
Thanks Joela! :) I've got one (maybe two) more playtests for the Ninja class coming in. Cleaning up notes right now, but may post it later.
+1! Another awesome playtest. Wish there was a way to flag these diamonds amid the sea of impulsive, non-playtest opinions. Keep up the great work, SithHunter!Thanks Joela! :) I've got one (maybe two) more playtests for the Ninja class coming in. Cleaning up notes right now, but may post it later.
if your doing character tweaking, May I suggest either not taking toughness or dumping con? really a well played ninja shouldn't get hit, and never by a full attack, but maybe thats just how I envision it. Not to mention I haven't seen a lot of use out of INT considering how many skill points they already get
if your doing character tweaking, May I suggest either not taking toughness or dumping con? really a well played ninja shouldn't get hit, and never by a full attack, but maybe thats just how I envision it. Not to mention I haven't seen a lot of use out of INT considering how many skill points they already get
The problem the Ninja player has had in this playtest dungeon hasn't been the damage from full attacks, but the damage from AoE blasts. He got nailed by two traps, an Evoker, and one other creature with an AoE breath weapon. Honestly, if there was a chink in the Ninja armor it would be lack of Evasion. I'm guessing that that is the major balancing point in this class against the Rogue's Evasion, Trapfinding, and the ability to disable magical traps (all of which have been faced in this dungeon so far).
Anyhow, that's why he's staying with Toughness and not dumping out on Con. Also, he already dumped Intelligence because of the high number of initial skills he gets. Int is his lowest score.
And thanks for the suggestions :)
The problem the Ninja player has had in this playtest dungeon hasn't been the damage from full attacks, but the damage from AoE blasts. He got nailed by two traps, an Evoker, and one other creature with an AoE breath weapon. Honestly, if there was a chink in the Ninja armor it would be lack of Evasion. I'm guessing that that is the major balancing point in this class against the Rogue's Evasion, Trapfinding, and the ability to disable magical traps (all of which have been faced in this dungeon so far).Anyhow, that's why he's staying with Toughness and not dumping out on Con. Also, he already dumped Intelligence because of the high number of initial skills he gets. Int is his lowest score.
And thanks for the suggestions :)
Shouldn't he be passing those reflex saves? I know it is still half but that can't be hurting too much, probably good to find a better defense then hp... I'll think this over.
Suli, Genie-blooded counterparts to Tieflings in the Qadira Companion, would be GREAT Ninjas...
+2 STR/CHA, Darkvision I believe, +1d6 elemental attack 1/day, and energy resistances.
...I guess Halflings are pretty damn good as well...
It`s funny, people are debating whether Gunslingers should use CHA instead of WIS,
I almost feel like Ninjas should use WIS instead of CHA...
It makes sense that Monks could multiclass with Ninja easily... ah, OK I won`t threadjack more ;-D
Okay, so our intrepid band of adventurers (with their Ninja in tow) have finally managed to get to the end of our playtest dungeon.
They have rested so everyone is full up on everything. Our Ninja is shadowing the Rogue 60ft in front of the group as they approach the BBEG room.
Even though they are expected, they have a couple of rounds to buff up. Mage casts Greater Invisibility on the Ninja, and prepares to summon all kinds of stuff that will give me headaches. Ninja UMD's wand of Shield for himself, and the Rogue quaffs some Heroism (amongst other things).
Cleric Blesses everyone, and the Mage barely has enough time to drop a Haste spell before the Barbarian Rages and blasts the doors off their hinges with a booted foot.
Ninja is able to go first with his superior Initiative, and speeds in to hack away at a rather large ogre. He scores a pretty decent hit, but is then dismayed to notice that his Invisibility gets purged by the Ogre Mage that was lying in wait. Party Mage summons headachey things, and then something interesting happens...
The Rogue and the Ninja decided to join forces and Sneak Attack the daylights out of whatever they flanked. Things go rather poorly for my baddies from there. Dual Sneak Attackers are nothing to trifle with. My baddies tried to counter with Fog Clouds and Wall of Fog, but that only delayed the inevitable.
(On a side note, the Smoke Bomb Ninja Trick along with the Shadow Strike Feat would work VERY well together. So would a friendly mage casting Obscuring Mist...but I digress).
The party was once again torched by Aoe Evocations, but the Cleric was able to keep everyone upright. Pits were opened, but the Ninja was able to run over them thanks to Light Step. This concerned the cleric because the Ninja was going solo on the other side. He didn't have too hard a time thanks to his Vanish and Shadow Clone Tricks. The Ninja basically burned through all his Ki during this fight.
It then dawned on me that the Ninja has the potential to be *awesome* for short spans of time, whereas the Rogue is always steady throughout. Never too high, never too low. And always low maintenance.
That pretty much ended the playtest for the Ninja for my gaming group. I must admit that all of us learned a lot about the class through playtesting it.
Thanks to the developers for allowing us this opportunity!
Samurai! You're up next! :)
Shouldn't he be passing those reflex saves? I know it is still half but that can't be hurting too much, probably good to find a better defense then hp... I'll think this over.
He's had bad luck on the dice (even rolled a natural '1' once). He could probably get by without Toughness, but he would never dump Con because of the Fort saves.
He also had a pretty neat Improved Unarmed Strike Ninja build that looked decent, but decided to go another direction for this playtest.
Congrats on the successful playtest, one main question really. When the ninja burned up his abilities did he become weaker then the rogue or did he just stop being better then the rogue?
If he became weaker then what about the rogue made him stronger then a ki drained ninja? (okay with one ki left anyway)
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+1! Another awesome playtest. Wish there was a way to flag these diamonds amid the sea of impulsive, non-playtest opinions. Keep up the great work, SithHunter!Thanks Joela! :) I've got one (maybe two) more playtests for the Ninja class coming in. Cleaning up notes right now, but may post it later.
Lookin' forward to it.
Congrats on the successful playtest, one main question really. When the ninja burned up his abilities did he become weaker then the rogue or did he just stop being better then the rogue?
If he became weaker then what about the rogue made him stronger then a ki drained ninja? (okay with one ki left anyway)
That's tough to answer. But I'll do my best to indicate what the playtest showed me. The Ninja, in the hands of a creative player has the potential to be better than the Rogue in certain aspects. In a mechanical sense, the Ninja is much better at creating his own Sneak Attacks using Ki, Feints, and Stealth. The Rogue is more reliant on Flanking than the Ninja is.
That said, the Rogue *completely* outshines the Ninja in the realm of Trapfinding. Especially in the case of magical traps. The Rogue is better equipped to handle traps when they go off as well (Evasion). All of this makes the Rogue a better natural Scout.
To answer your question, I'm not sure the Ninja was ever better than the Rogue, just more creative, with a higher 'cool' factor. With a good Ki reserve, he can be extremely proactive in combat settings. Without Ki (his offense and defense), he becomes more reactionary and opportunistic. The Rogue can be either proactive or reactionary as the situation warrants. And he doesn't need Ki to do it.
I don't see how Evasion is a major loss, taken in perspective, given 90% of classes don't have it. And with the Ninja still having a good Reflex save.
The Ninja then made use of Fast Stealth and Light Step to deliver a *crushing* Sneak Attack on a bad guy.
How exactly did that work? Light steps is a full-round action (which also means no light stepped spring attacks for ninjas) so I guess he didn't use it to enter the grease and attacked in the same round?
I don't see how Evasion is a major loss, taken in perspective, given 90% of classes don't have it. And with the Ninja still having a good Reflex save.
Well, I can only speak for my campaign obviously. Evasion isn't a 'must have' by any means, but it sure is convenient when it triggers. Case in point: during the playtest, the Rogue scouted ahead, and the Ninja decided to tag along. The Ninja decided to leave the Rogue behind to see if he could get the drop on a couple of baddies. Ninja sets off trap and gets blowed up. Rogue makes his save and takes no damage. Battle ensues, and the only one that needed to use up healing resources was the Ninja. Is it gamebreaking? No. Would Evasion have helped? Yep.
Also losing the Trapfinding ability and the ability to disarm magical traps played into the playtest as well.
Of course, adding Evasion to every class would help. That's why there is a ring.
The Ninja is obviously not meant for trap hunting. He is probably better off scouting than a Ranger however.
I don't see how Evasion is a major loss, taken in perspective, given 90% of classes don't have it. And with the Ninja still having a good Reflex save.Well, I can only speak for my campaign obviously. Evasion isn't a 'must have' by any means, but it sure is convenient when it triggers. Case in point: during the playtest, the Rogue scouted ahead, and the Ninja decided to tag along. The Ninja decided to leave the Rogue behind to see if he could get the drop on a couple of baddies. Ninja sets off trap and gets blowed up. Rogue makes his save and takes no damage. Battle ensues, and the only one that needed to use up healing resources was the Ninja. Is it gamebreaking? No. Would Evasion have helped? Yep.
Also losing the Trapfinding ability and the ability to disarm magical traps played into the playtest as well.
+1 As a DM, I can say that evasion is a great boon to a player. Not only does it take all the bite out of evocation, it is a great defensive ability to a class that is lacking.
Also, am I the only one who didn't think this class was flat-out better than the rogue when I first read it? I thought that it's tricks where more impressive than the rogue's and perhaps more powerful, but the fact that most of them are ki-dependent really, keeps this in line.
This playtest thread seems to support this theory, and is one of the very few thread that seem to be constructive this time around. Kudos
(by the way, guns, ninjas and samurai are fairly controversial subjects in gaming, and so far the threads have been kept down to a dull roar, which is pretty impressive)
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I don't see how Evasion is a major loss, taken in perspective, given 90% of classes don't have it. And with the Ninja still having a good Reflex save.Well, I can only speak for my campaign obviously. Evasion isn't a 'must have' by any means, but it sure is convenient when it triggers. Case in point: during the playtest, the Rogue scouted ahead, and the Ninja decided to tag along. The Ninja decided to leave the Rogue behind to see if he could get the drop on a couple of baddies. Ninja sets off trap and gets blowed up. Rogue makes his save and takes no damage. Battle ensues, and the only one that needed to use up healing resources was the Ninja. Is it gamebreaking? No. Would Evasion have helped? Yep.
Also losing the Trapfinding ability and the ability to disarm magical traps played into the playtest as well.
+1 As a DM, I can say that evasion is a great boon to a player. Not only does it take all the bite out of evocation, it is a great defensive ability to a class that is lacking.
Also, am I the only one who didn't think this class was flat-out better than the rogue when I first read it? I thought that it's tricks where more impressive than the rogue's and perhaps more powerful, but the fact that most of them are ki-dependent really, keeps this in line.
This playtest thread seems to support this theory, and is one of the very few thread that seem to be constructive this time around. Kudos
(by the way, guns, ninjas and samurai are fairly controversial subjects in gaming, and so far the threads have been kept down to a dull roar, which is pretty impressive)
The game that I am currently running has a fair amount of situations (Traps and/or spells) where Evasion would have helped... The only Rogue?
Mik Mek, Kobold Rogue2/Cavalier3. It has saved the little fellow from some pretty ugly damage.-Uriel
PS:Nice playtest. I'd have more constructive to say, but I haven
t read through the Ninja fully.
Very good playtest. I hadn't realized that the ninja class had given up evasion, and it seems like that little difference goes a long way towards balancing the class. I used to think that ninjas seemed outright better than rogues, but the lack of evasion combined with multiple battles per day seems to fix that.
Funny that the class seems to have AC problems...I'm hoping that paizo will put out a armorless ninja archetype that adds CHA to AC like a monk does with wisdom. That might solve the problem or at least make it so that the class doesn't necessarily have to max Dex to survive.
A few more playtest notes to try and get the thread back on track:
Damage. The Ninja did lots of it. Through both creating his own Sneak Attacks and through Flanking. The player chose to use the Katana two handed. That worked out well.
Poison Use didn't work very well, and he eventually gave up on it.
Shuriken worked moderately well. Only reason he didn't use them more was because he liked flanking. I wish he would have tried poisoned shuriken at least once.
His effectiveness declined when faced with one on one battles and he had no Ki (that was to be expected though...just like the Rogue).
I am not sure you ever really answered my question, When burnt out on KI is the ninja weaker then the rogue? and why?
Trapfinding: main argument but it is weak because otherwise we wouldn't say wizards are all that great (can't find, disable, evade, or survive a couple traps) and yet they are considered more powerful then most
Evasion: see trapfinding
so after saying "well your burning ki to make the ninja great and its limited", well who cares, once its gone i am still as good as a rogue.
Now I actually think the class is flavorful and well balanced with the rest of the core classes, but this means the rogue may need some love.
Also why wasnt the ninja using fast stealth in combination of light steps to not trigger location based trigger traps? unless ofcourse the rogue tripped it?
I am not sure you ever really answered my question, When burnt out on KI is the ninja weaker then the rogue? and why?
Trapfinding: main argument but it is weak because otherwise we wouldn't say wizards are all that great (can't find, disable, evade, or survive a couple traps) and yet they are considered more powerful then most
Evasion: see trapfinding
so after saying "well your burning ki to make the ninja great and its limited", well who cares, once its gone i am still as good as a rogue.
Now I actually think the class is flavorful and well balanced with the rest of the core classes, but this means the rogue may need some love.
Based on the playtesting, the Ninja player said that he thought he was still on par with the Rogue. The Rogue player said that the only time he felt that the Ninja outshined him was when he burned all his Ki at once in the final fight to do a bunch if tricks.
The Ninja then made use of Fast Stealth and Light Step to deliver a *crushing* Sneak Attack on a bad guy.How exactly did that work? Light steps is a full-round action (which also means no light stepped spring attacks for ninjas) so I guess he didn't use it to enter the grease and attacked in the same round?
My apologies for not seeing this earlier. Baddie was flat footed at the time, Ninja charged, Light Stepped over Grease and struck, scoring a critical hit. I wasn't really sure at the time if you could combine Light Step with a charge, but it sure as heck looked cool cinematically, so I allowed it. He even finished with a kneeling follow through, bloody katana in hand while the baddie slowly slumped to the floor.
Also with an extra attack and Flurry of Shurikens they could staple on 3 attacks at full base attack and a secondary if they get one with a mere -2 to the attack rolls. essentially that trick is like rapid shot only better and limited to shurikens. Shurikens are good if they have sneak attack attached to them.
If your gonna focus on shuriken then you want Rapid shot, flurry of stars, and TWF for five attacks at level three granted all of these are at -6 so it kinda balances out.
Edit: can't spend ki for extra attack after paying for flurry of stars
Edit2: wait can they? it doesn't say the extra attack takes a swift action
Also with an extra attack and Flurry of Shurikens they could staple on 3 attacks at full base attack and a secondary if they get one with a mere -2 to the attack rolls. essentially that trick is like rapid shot only better and limited to shurikens. Shurikens are good if they have sneak attack attached to them.If your gonna focus on shuriken then you want Rapid shot, flurry of stars, and TWF for five attacks at level three granted all of these are at -6 so it kinda balances out.
Edit: can't spend ki for extra attack after paying for flurry of stars
Edit2: wait can they? it doesn't say the extra attack takes a swift action
I though the same thing at first but I think you can.
the TWF is unneeded.
-4 with rapid shot to get 6 attacks at level 8. if you can drop the targets AC a bit (poison, cloud of smoke, w/e) thats a lot of damage.
I though the same thing at first but I think you can.
the TWF is unneeded.
-4 with rapid shot to get 6 attacks at level 8. if you can drop the targets AC a bit (poison, cloud of smoke, w/e) thats a lot of damage.
TWF may be uneeded but having it and improved means 8 attacks at 8th-9th level. I have wanted to make a ninja assassin style machine-gun shuriken thrower. all kinds of awesome. real hard to hit though.
I still stand by the statement that the ninja is fine and the rogue needs a boost