Well, I thought that the Ninja playtest was done for me, however someone else in the group wants to play one. So he will now build a Ninja character and I will post the results of the next adventure on this thread as well. There will also be a Samurai in the group, but those results will be posted in a seperate thread for the Samurai alone.
I will change things up a bit and include raw damage numbers and try to include more of what the other characters do. Unfortunately that will probably make for pretty long posts. You have been warned.
This is going to be fun...
SithHunter,
Thanks for posting this playtest. I found it interesting and informative.
To those who are ranting (one side or the other), I've a thought: post up some ideas on how to balance things better while still maintaining the flavor (need I post a cooking metaphor?). As an example, if you feel the ninja so outshines the rogue, perhaps drop the sneak attack damage to every three levels instead of every other? (I'm not actually suggesting such, as I've not had hands-on time with a playtest, just giving a for-instance.)
Personally, I applaud the designers not only for their work and effort, but in handing these to the community to playtest in the first place. I've been playing Pathfinder less than a year, and am consistently pleased with the quality and care of their work.
Play on.
The reason is that the ninja:
so after saying "well your burning ki to make the ninja great and its limited", well who cares, once its gone i am still as good as a rogue.
- Is MAD and needs to spread himself a bit thin - after ki is gone his base stats compared to the rogue are less. i.e. not as good
- Each ninja trick that he uses (such as shadow clones) that use up ki is a dead trick after ki is used up - the ninja *could* pick only weaker tricks that are always available, but assuming you take the "better" stuff, once you have no more ki you have dead tricks meaning you are like a rogue with no rogues talents. i.e. not as good
- And although some wave this away, the ninja is not as good at finding traps and lacks evasion; this means he needs to be baby sat more than a rogue. i.e. not as good
- Finally, in comparison, a rogue can focus his feats and talents into deadly trees that are always active - where the ninja spreads himself between nova-abilities and the rest. Once the ninja cannot nova because of lack of ki, he does not compare well to the optimized rogue. i.e. not as good
I just want to thank the people that are actually playtesting instead of Monday-Night theory-crafting things.
I will have the chance to test only tonight.
I even changed the plot of the adventure for it ;)
I wonder how well a Gunslinger will do with a Ninja, a Cleric, and a Samurai. All in the same group.
There's a possibility that all three might be at my table next week for playtesting. Not quite sure on the Gunslinger though. The player is still debating that, or a different character class.
Either way, I'm going to go with an AP instead of my standard homebrew. I'm a little concerned about party balance, but I have faith in my players so I think they'll find a way to make it work.
Should be interesting if the Gunslinger decides to show up.
Basically the ninja in my party has done this so far:
5 Halfling Ninja
Tricks:
Fast Stealth
Flurry of Shurikens
Shadow Clone
Rogue Talent (trap spotter)
Feats:
Extra Trick
Extra Trick
Point Blank Shot
12 str
12 Con
18 Dex
10 Wis
10 Int
18 Cha
He maxed perception
Basically he just runs up front (a little slow for a halfling but the party just tags along) light steps so he doesnt trigger traps and spots most of them as he runs along at his full stealth speed.
When he approaches a target (usually stealth scouting ahead) he just dishes out a bunch of shurikens for 3d6 a piece. Now granted they dont always hit but usually its 3 shurikens for the price of one ki point he gets to throw. hit to hit isnt bad (something like +9)
not to mention he took the sniping thing in place of his sure footed trait for halflings so he can basically re-stealth each round (stealth is just crazy high because he is small)
Maybe it was just really lucky but one time he basically one shotted an ogre by spending the extra ki point for shurikens and the one for the extra attack (got 4 attacks) and they all hit for sneak.
yuck.
I mean he isnt more effective than most other players, he is just more effective than I have seen any rogue played at my table.
My only real qualms with the ninja is right now he gets "tricks" which the rogue cant have. And I think that is crap. It is a Rogue Alternate class and it gets its own set of tricks why????
Personally rogues need better talents. Everyone else got really really good with the APG and the Rogue got a few archetypes that just weren't that good.
Juice the rogue, the ninja just makes him look pathetic.
*Keep in mind this guy does put together a beastly character, honestly halfling ninja is a combo that is near unstoppable compared to some other classes.
[snip] Pits were opened, but the Ninja was able to run over them thanks to Light Step. [snip]
This isn't a complaint per se, and I don't have the ninja document in front of me, but I don't think the ninja could run across open pits simply because they were traps. As far as I know, you could use Light Steps to run across the surface of a pitfall that hasn't been "triggered," (so long as there was some thin layer of debris or something physical covering it that was meant to be fallen through) but not over already opened pits.
Just throwing that out there as something I noticed. All in all, a solid playtest. Thanks for going through the trouble to post it.
I removed a rather lot of posts and replies to them.
If you have specific questions about what actually happened in the playtest, please feel free to ask. However, please take abstract discussion to the relevant discussion forum.
I wonder how well a Gunslinger will do with a Ninja, a Cleric, and a Samurai. All in the same group.
We are doing that playtest tonight we are using a healbot oracle
We made 12th level characters and they will be going through escalating encounters starting at CR 12 and have 2 CR 12 encounters then 2 CR 13 Encounters but im not letting them rest they have to deliver the Oracle before midnight so they must press on
[snip] Pits were opened, but the Ninja was able to run over them thanks to Light Step. [snip]This isn't a complaint per se, and I don't have the ninja document in front of me, but I don't think the ninja could run across open pits simply because they were traps. As far as I know, you could use Light Steps to run across the surface of a pitfall that hasn't been "triggered," (so long as there was some thin layer of debris or something physical covering it that was meant to be fallen through) but not over already opened pits.
Just throwing that out there as something I noticed. All in all, a solid playtest. Thanks for going through the trouble to post it.
Good catch. What I should have said was that the Ninja was able to run over the triggers that opened them. The Rogue, of course, was able to call them out.
This is a 27 point buy, by my estimation. A 10 on con would put at 25 points. Or did you pick/roll stats? Your method of score generation is fine, just curious is all :)
5 Halfling Ninja12 str
12 Con
18 Dex
10 Wis
10 Int
18 Cha
Actually the con was a 10 I accidently wrote 12 twice because his strength was twelve.
I just want to thank the people that are actually playtesting instead of Monday-Night theory-crafting things.
Most of us here are questioning the playtesting in order to divulge information from the results. If you just want results then we would have a thread just for results.
and by my count even with a 10 CON your 2 points over mr. half-ling
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and by my count even with a 10 CON your 2 points over mr. half-ling
Nah, 10 con and it flies. Str: 14 is 5 points Dex: 16 is 10 points Cha: 16 is 10 points. Factor in halfling racial bonuses and you get the right numbers.
The ninja I want to playtest is a halfling. Super sneaky, damage comes from getting into position to sneak attack with dual wielded wakizashi's. Who knows how it works out, might just have to toss him into an arena, as I dont know when I can get a chance to try him in a game anytime soon.
First, I have to say I haven't playtested this Ninja, but I love the Ninja class and have played the old 3.5 C.A. version.
But to get right to the point, why is Evasion so all comsuming? This ninja gets it at 10th level and through Advanced Talents(Rogue)can get Imp. Evasion at 12th.(If you want)
The problem is when you get it. It is a long way from Evasion at 2nd level for a Rogue, and at 10th level for a Ninja. Those low levels can do you in without superior AC, Con, and no Evasion. But a Ninja CAN get it.
The big problem for me is Trapfinding. And according to the rules, it's not necessarily finding, but disabling. There is nothing that says you can't find a magical trap as a Ninja, you just can't disable it. You can access the Trapspotter talent(through Rogue Talent)-I love this talent, like the Elves of 3.5.
So you can locate almost as well as the Rogue(I know, you don't get the 1/2 level boost that Trapfinding gives you), you just can't disable magic traps- and they can be the deadliest. And if you set them off, a Rogue has Trapsense and a Ninja doesn't.
But that is the trade off. The Ninja gives you Shadow Clone, Vanishing Trick, Feather Fall and all the "Bombs". This is stuff the Rogue could only dream about(or UMD a wand).
There is alot of really cool stuff with the Ninja Class, and I like what I see.
But you have to decide-Do you want to be a sneaky fighter or a fighting sneak?
By the way, thank you to SithHunter, Midnightoker, and Paizo for making this thread, at least, informative and entertaining without vitriol and pissing contests.
I just want to thank the people that are actually playtesting instead of Monday-Night theory-crafting things.Most of us here are questioning the playtesting in order to divulge information from the results. If you just want results then we would have a thread just for results.
and by my count even with a 10 CON your 2 points over mr. half-ling
what ka bump said.
14 = 5
16 = 10
16 = 10
+2 dex +2 cha -2 str
12
10
18
10
10
18
I dont know what he put his point in at 4th level I just remember what stats he started with though. He has a set of 20 masterwork shurikens
a magic cloak which he has yet to discover all the powers of but right now its just a resistance cloak.
He also has a ring of protection +2
what ka bump said.
14 = 5
16 = 10
16 = 10+2 dex +2 cha -2 str
12
10
18
10
10
18I dont know what he put his point in at 4th level I just remember what stats he started with though. He has a set of 20 masterwork shurikens
a magic cloak which he has yet to discover all the powers of but right now its just a resistance cloak.
He also has a ring of protection +2
I had not noticed this was a 25 point buy
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Well, I thought that the Ninja playtest was done for me, however someone else in the group wants to play one. So he will now build a Ninja character and I will post the results of the next adventure on this thread as well. There will also be a Samurai in the group, but those results will be posted in a seperate thread for the Samurai alone.
I will change things up a bit and include raw damage numbers and try to include more of what the other characters do. Unfortunately that will probably make for pretty long posts. You have been warned.
This is going to be fun...
+1. Looking forward to reading your new playtests.
I'd rather leave that to the designers who also run the classes through playtests.
Do you see any designers asking questions in here?
I'd rather leave that to the designers who also run the classes through playtests.I just want to thank the people that are actually playtesting instead of Monday-Night theory-crafting things.Most of us here are questioning the playtesting in order to divulge information from the results.
The designers are not the only ones that understand the game, and hearing everyone's gripes/compliments helps them with their modifications for the classes.
Plays great, so leave the design a lone.
to me this is the one ninja class i was truly looking forward of playing sent the ninja was release in the original first edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Oriental Adventures come out.
This is the playtest forum. Take the discussion elsewhere unless you want to ask a question about how the playtests had in this thread.
This kind of one sided thinking with no rationale other than "I want this so bad" is how power creep happens. I don't want paizo to let stuff like this in based on my playtests if they will cause class bloat, rogue obsoletion, or power creep. Otherwise the game starts to defabricate.
i'd like to note that the rogue causes rogue obsoletion, so maybe we should fix that first, otherwise I agree this is not the place for blatant statements
i'd like to note that the rogue causes rogue obsoletion, so maybe we should fix that first, otherwise I agree this is not the place for blatant statements
Make the ninja tricks rogue talents and buff the rogues in ultimate combat and we have a solution.
Nice play test enjoyed the ideas, hope I get to do a play test soon with my friends. Will post on each thread when it happens. Might want more experienced players as well.
Here are some new play test results for the Ninja. Let's get the general stuff out of the way first:
Party was level 9 and also included a Human Samurai (will post his results in a different thread), Gnome Cleric of Sarenrae, and a Human Druid. Ninja is a halfling.
We had battle against four rogue types. Basically the Samurai got jumped and they wanted to take his stuff.
While the Samurai fought downstairs, the rest of the party could hear the sounds of combat coming from upstairs in their room. the Ninja quickly made the 15 foot leap and managed to land in flanking position with the Samurai behind one of the bad guys. Unfortunately, he missed on the attack.
Cleric tossed out a long distance channel and the Samurai cut down two of the four baddies. Druid turned into an air elemental and used whirlwind, providing the lead BG concealment by accident and negating the Ninja's critical threat (classic).
Things got a little ugly on a round of misses as the BG tried to run away, but the Ninja ended things with a timely Ki Charge. He also used a point of Ki to increase his speed for a round. Vanishing Trick was also used to get an absolutely wicked sneak attack in that really weakened the lead BG (causing him to try to run away to begin with).
All in all, some good stuff there.