CIdaho
Cidaho? State of great apple wine! :P
Pale Rider isn't a spaghetti Western (it was filmed in Idaho, not Italy; the reason the spaghetti Westerns were called such).
Minor nitpick: Sergio Leone was Italian, but he filmed his westerns in Spain, because parts of it look a lot like parts of the American west -- right down to the mesquite trees (the Conquistadors brought mesquite beans as horse fodder, which is how the trees came to the New World -- or so I've been told by native Texans).
Pale Rider isn't a spaghetti Western (it was filmed in Idaho, not Italy; the reason the spaghetti Westerns were called such).Minor nitpick: Sergio Leone was Italian, but he filmed his westerns in Spain, because parts of it look a lot like parts of the American west -- right down to the mesquite trees (the Conquistadors brought mesquite beans as horse fodder, which is how the trees came to the New World -- or so I've been told by native Texans).
Once Upon a Time in the West should have been partly filmed in USA, but this is essentially correct (Once Upon a Time in the West included).
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One question regards how Paizo is going to handle this new element in the game - Is it as an uncommon optional thing to spice it up, or a foundational part of the world?
Let's say I don't want guns in my PF. If there's an AP set entirely in Alkenstar, I can just choose not to run it. No sweat, doesn't hurt me any.
However, if I have to rewrite several NPCs in each Paizo adventure because gunslingers are popping up everywhere, or if Part #3 of an otherwise core AP becomes unusable because it revolves around a conflict over gunpowder resources, that makes a major dent in my enjoyment that's hard to avoid.
I'd also note that "Sixguns and Sorcery" and Expedition to the Barrier Peaks were written as excursions from the norm, not customary elements of AD&D. Ditto for "How effective is a Panzerfaust against a troll, Heinz?"
James Jacobs, I believe, said somewhere that they'd not include many, if any Gunslingers in adventures, etc., unless the gunslinger was essential to the story, so you should be safe.
This is correct—encounters with gunslingers and plots involving gunslingers, firearms, ammunition, etc. will be fairly rare.
Minor nitpick: Sergio Leone was Italian, but he filmed his westerns in Spain, because parts of it look a lot like parts of the American west --
D'OH! You're right! Caught up in my own nitpick! (My face is red...)
Heck, in Pale Rider (and the other man with no name spaghetti westerns) Clint Eastwood plays an undead gunfighter (former preacher before his death) who avenges himself and others against those who wronged him, can anyone say Revenant?/nitpick
Pale Rider isn't a spaghetti Western (it was filmed in CIdaho, not Italy; the reason the spaghetti Westerns were called such). Also, the character in Pale Rider isn't the same character. (It's possible it could be, I suppose, but the two characters seem different enough IMO that they probably aren't.) Likewise, the Stranger in High Plains Drifter is a similar character- who might or might not be an undead revenant- but it is a different character than the Preacher.
Still a cool idea to run with, though. Also of similar note, David Gallher's High Moon webcomic features a werewolf gunslinger.
All characters are named "the man with no name" and all the movies are referred to as the man with no name westerns, it's still spaghetti because A) the replicas use are ubertis (from italy) and B) it was produced by italian film maker. So still technically spaghetti if not nearly as cheesy.
James Jacobs, I believe, said somewhere that they'd not include many, if any Gunslingers in adventures, etc., unless the gunslinger was essential to the story, so you should be safe.This is correct—encounters with gunslingers and plots involving gunslingers, firearms, ammunition, etc. will be fairly rare.
Which in turn means that extra expensive ammo won't be refilled after combat
Director of Games
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Hey there folks
Two quick points... (that I seem to be making over and over...)
1. The Pathfinder RPG is not intended to model history. We use history as an influence to be sure, but we are not beholden to it. While firearms surely had something to do with the death of medieval armor, that is not something we are terribly concerned with when it comes to our rules and our game world. That is not to say we did not model some of its effect into the rules, but we are not going to retcon everything to take this into effect (even if there are counterarguments that make this out to be not true, it is irrelevant to us either way). Some folks like a little bit of guns in their games. We are giving that option.
2. Please read the most important rule on page 9 of your core rulebook. Note that we understand that these three classes (but guns in particular) are a area of great contention in the hobby. Thats ok. We expect some folk will not use them. You have nothing to worry about concerning our future products or campaign products. Guns will be no more prevelant in our world than they were two weeks ago, which is to say, very rare and fairly restricted to one nation that can be overlooked by those uninterested in firearms.
That is all... As a note, threads like this serve little purpose to the playtest, but I am going to let this one go for a bit and see if something useful cant come out of it.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Which in turn means that extra expensive ammo won't be refilled after combatJames Jacobs, I believe, said somewhere that they'd not include many, if any Gunslingers in adventures, etc., unless the gunslinger was essential to the story, so you should be safe.This is correct—encounters with gunslingers and plots involving gunslingers, firearms, ammunition, etc. will be fairly rare.
good point, how can you rob ammo if none of the baddies have any?
Think DMs with gunslingers will just have to throw a few in there and there.
Another dumb question, is ammo going to be weapon specific?
ie rifle ammo, pistol ammo, or are bullets just bullets?
I hope for the sake of simplicity and sanity bullets should just be bullets.
Hey there folks
Two quick points... (that I seem to be making over and over...)
1. The Pathfinder RPG is not intended to model history. We use history as an influence to be sure, but we are not beholden to it. While firearms surely had something to do with the death of medieval armor, that is not something we are terribly concerned with when it comes to our rules and our game world. That is not to say we did not model some of its effect into the rules, but we are not going to retcon everything to take this into effect (even if there are counterarguments that make this out to be not true, it is irrelevant to us either way). Some folks like a little bit of guns in their games. We are giving that option.
2. Please read the most important rule on page 9 of your core rulebook. Note that we understand that these three classes (but guns in particular) are a area of great contention in the hobby. Thats ok. We expect some folk will not use them. You have nothing to worry about concerning our future products or campaign products. Guns will be no more prevelant in our world than they were two weeks ago, which is to say, very rare and fairly restricted to one nation that can be overlooked by those uninterested in firearms.
That is all... As a note, threads like this serve little purpose to the playtest, but I am going to let this one go for a bit and see if something useful cant come out of it.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
well we can only talk about what we know about, and it seems very shady where exactly this gunslinger fits in a party. Or even what to do with it.
Don't get me wrong, I totally want to play one and i think I want one for Carrion Crown.
One of the problems is because it SOOO new and different really, that is more 'broken' than trying to playtest other classes that are based on something known in DnD and pathfinder.
Even back in alpha/beta there were basis for all the character classes.
This guy?
There's nothing to base him on, especially, if as rumored the guns will be different, or better than what we have to work with.
Shots per round, and reloading are huge issues.
What are we supposed to do with the class? shoot all the time? shoot some of the time?
Rapier and pistol?
All of the above?
only one of those options seems to work as written.
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Director of Games
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well we can only talk about what we know about, and it seems very shady where exactly this gunslinger fits in a party. Or even what to do with it.
Don't get me wrong, I totally want to play one and i think I want one for Carrion Crown.
One of the problems is because it SOOO new and different really, that is more 'broken' than trying to playtest other classes that are based on something known in DnD and pathfinder.
Even back in alpha/beta there were basis for all the character classes.This guy?
There's nothing to base him on, especially, if as rumored the guns will be different, or better than what we have to work with.Shots per round, and reloading are huge issues.
What are we supposed to do with the class? shoot all the time? shoot some of the time?
Rapier and pistol?
All of the above?
only one of those options seems to work as written.
This is why we playtest. We know the gunslinger is new. We know that there are going to be some gun changes, but nothing very drastic. Just some additional options. We are looking at releasing a few just to see how they play. They are still under development.
We want to see how it gets used. It is very different and we expected that would rub some folks the wrong way, but its a good area to explore.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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We want to see how it gets used.
I hate to seem rude but the general consensus at the moment is that... it won't get used. The issues due to the lack of a full attack option, poor damage, and everything else under the sun is simply making people not even want to playtest it. It pretty clearly just isn't viable. You don't need to playtest to realize this...
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Director of Games
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I hate to seem rude but the general consensus at the moment is that... it won't get used. The issues due to the lack of a full attack option, poor damage, and everything else under the sun is simply making people not even want to playtest it. It pretty clearly just isn't viable. You don't need to playtest to realize this...
We want to see how it gets used.
Your concern is noted, however since we are getting playtest feedback, some of it different than your expectations, I think we will let things continue on for a bit instead of panicking.
Thats not to say the class does not need some work, it clearly does, but there is no need to get dismissive because it does not seem to work for you.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
The gunslingers status effects seem better than its offensive power so far. I mean, he can stun/confuse no save. Granted, limited useage due to reloading.
Seems not really a Fighter but its own class.
I hate to seem rude but the general consensus at the moment is that... it won't get used. The issues due to the lack of a full attack option, poor damage, and everything else under the sun is simply making people not even want to playtest it. It pretty clearly just isn't viable. You don't need to playtest to realize this...
We want to see how it gets used.Your concern is noted, however since we are getting playtest feedback, some of it different than your expectations, I think we will let things continue on for a bit instead of panicking.
Thats not to say the class does not need some work, it clearly does, but there is no need to get dismissive because it does not seem to work for you.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Oh it will get used.
and i actually like the whole broken/jamming element.as written i can only see it working in the musketeer role. (ie switch hitter)
i just cant stay in the fight with the rate of fire/reload issues.
fix those and keep the jam/break thing, and then i could see someone who just used guns for fighting.
It seems you are saying you really arent going to change guns, which means they will all keep the capacity of 1.
Which to me says they will always be a switch hitter, which i think is what your intended, because otherwise you wouldnt have made this a full martial weapon proficiency class.
I think as a musketeer he works fine with the exception of i think he needs to get fighter feats back (not all of them but enough so i can do fighter stuff and gunslinger stuff)
I think as a pure gun character, he's lack luster. and it all revolves around rate of fire and reloading.
and for the record i like the idea that you are using grit to make the gunfighter fix/clear his weapons..so that any one CAN use a firearm, but not really. I totally get why you did this with the class, to make the guns available to anyone who foolishly wants to use them, but they are really only effective in the hands of a true gunslinger. the only thing is, they just need to be better than they currently are, but i dont want to see some kind of magic away reloading and rate of fire or i will be disappointed.
All characters are named "the man with no name"
They're not, though. The character in Pale Rider is credited as "The Preacher" and the character in High Plains Drifter is credited as "The Stranger." Only the characters in the Sergio Leone trilogy are "The Man With No Name."
it's still spaghetti because A) the replicas use are ubertis (from italy) and B) it was produced by italian film maker.
Both PR and HPD were directed by and produced by Clint Eastwood and his production company (well, HPD was produced by someone else, but not Italians.)
Anyway, getting OT, now I guess.
Guns...man.
D&D now stands for Dungeons and Desert Eagles.
RPG takes on a whole new meaning on these posts when you start adding in modern weapons.
Why not grenades? Just bottles with a fireball spell inside, right?
Tanks. Apparatus of the Crab in the CRB.
Maybe we could get some air support.
Lazers? Lightsabers?
I know I took it too far. So what.
Maybe we could get some air support.
Because a flying wizard throwing fireballs totally isn't that...
I like the class. Sure, I think the "Signature Deed" feat should be moved down to 5th level, when other 'vanilla' classes are looking at going all fancy-shmancy prestige, so that the Gunslinger player wants to keep on advancing in the Gunslinger class...
Just a thought. =)
This is actually a decent idea. Move Gun Training to 1st level, and make Signature Deed 5th level.
It's still only a band-aid though.
I haven't seen the Gunslinger yet but I have no problem with it. I've played games were they would be inappropriate but I've also played games were we've used guns in my group. Any time we've used the Eberron setting in 3.5 we added guns. We are currently using a homebrew setting that uses guns for PFRPG too.
castles did manage to co exist with cannons, they just drastically changed form. Instead of just a 3 foot thick stone wall, they became 3 feet of stone backed by 15 of earth. Instead of a flat wall that muscled through the blows, they became made of sharp angles to deflect the force of the cannonballs left and right. They grew into geometric monstrocities (or wonders) with constant fractyl patterns trying to obscure the last INCH of dead areas (zones where you couldn;t shoot at an attacker)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_fort
They were so effective, even against cannons, that siege quickly became an invading armies only option.
You have nothing to worry about concerning our future products or campaign products. Guns will be no more prevelant in our world than they were two weeks ago, which is to say, very rare and fairly restricted to one nation that can be overlooked by those uninterested in firearms.
This is what worries me about even bothering with using these classes in game. Do you mean they won't be more prevalent JUST in the game world, or do you also mean in "crunch" products, too? As in, can I look forward to more fun "toys" for my gunslinger in a future product? (new guns, feats, magic gun items, prestige classes, etc.)
Because while I have no problem with keeping them in the background of Golarion, I will be severely disappointed if there's a lack of material support for them.
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Really? I reckon Elyas's brief summary of the decline of armor and castles is pretty accurate.Now I am sure there are plenty of people who know far more then I do about history. But I seem to remember, it was guns that ushered out heavy Armor, (by-by mounted mail clad knight) and it was the cannon I believe that made Swiss cheese out of Castle walls.You remember incorrectly.
If you stretch it out over 100s of years, kinda. Although some would say the crossbow ended the Knight, because of the fact a peasant schlub could kill a trained warrior with expensive armor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_firearm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arquebus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_phalanx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tercio
That should start you off nicely.
This is what worries me about even bothering with using these classes in game. Do you mean they won't be more prevalent JUST in the game world, or do you also mean in "crunch" products, too? As in, can I look forward to more fun "toys" for my gunslinger in a future product? (new guns, feats, magic gun items, prestige classes, etc.)
Because while I have no problem with keeping them in the background of Golarion, I will be severely disappointed if there's a lack of material support for them.
Very much this -- it would really bother me to buy a product and have three great alternate classes and stuff for them -- and then never get anything that even remotely supports them ever again.
While I wouldn't expect each new supplement to come with something for firearms I would like to see something that uses what is in ultimate combat (and ultimate magic) at least every year.
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Although some would say the crossbow ended the Knight, because of the fact a peasant schlub could kill a trained warrior with expensive armor.
Exactly! Why the f~#% are these in Pathfinder???? They need to go!
This whole metalworking crap has no place here, really. sticks and stones all the way for me. You tech freaks sicken me!
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Director of Games
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This is what worries me about even bothering with using these classes in game. Do you mean they won't be more prevalent JUST in the game world, or do you also mean in "crunch" products, too? As in, can I look forward to more fun "toys" for my gunslinger in a future product? (new guns, feats, magic gun items, prestige classes, etc.)
Because while I have no problem with keeping them in the background of Golarion, I will be severely disappointed if there's a lack of material support for them.
Very much this -- it would really bother me to buy a product and have three great alternate classes and stuff for them -- and then never get anything that even remotely supports them ever again.
While I wouldn't expect each new supplement to come with something for firearms I would like to see something that uses what is in ultimate combat (and ultimate magic) at least every year.
There will be more material for these classes, just like there is more material for all of the classes, but each in proper measure. We do not believe in abandoning classes, but we are not going to flood you with a concept that is marginal to some either. Its a tricky line to walk...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Guns...man.
D&D now stands for Dungeons and Desert Eagles.
RPG takes on a whole new meaning on these posts when you start adding in modern weapons.
Why not grenades? Just bottles with a fireball spell inside, right?
Yeah D&D had grenades
Necklace of fireball maybe.Or
Vial of Explosive breath (20 ft spread like a fireball but 5 types so it could be a cold or acid one). Deals 6d6 for Least version (1000 gp). Greater did 10d6 but cost more with higher DC. Dragon Magic sourcebook.
3.5 had "blast orbs" that another player in our group loved to use. They were renewable. When he got a couple of them we just let him clear stuff ahead of us.
*Coughs politely. Nudges the Hobbit*
Don't touch me! I get angry when people touch me. You won't like me when I'm angry.
And what's with the coughing. This ain't no physical.
Back to the item at hand, I get that if I don't like the class I don't have to allow it.
Bottom line is, as a DM, offering two "alternate" classes from UC and not the other brings up a whole bunch of questions from the players. The question "well, what else are you not allowing?" comes up quite often. Do you allow the feats? The wondrous items? The this and the that? Just makes it messy and slows down character creation for new campaigns and playtests.
I would just prefer to leave out the Berettas and get back to the fantasy part of role playing. (Unless you're Jill Valentine, in which case I might allow it, cuz then Berettas are really hot, )
Who said Berettas don't count as fantasy?
Honestly, the second you think fantasy has to follow any set of rules or themes, you're wrong. It's fantasy. Its very purpose is to not be the norm.
Who said Berettas don't count as fantasy?
Honestly, the second you think fantasy has to follow any set of rules or themes, you're wrong. It's fantasy. Its very purpose is to not be the norm.
So lazers and lightsabers then?
*cough*Scorching Ray and Flame Blade/Brilliant Energy*cough*
Ok, let's run with this.
How many shots do I get per day with a typical phaser? Do you ever see someone reload after 6 shots?
How long can the lightsaber be sustained? More than a few rounds? Does it cortorize the wounds when you lob off someone's arm?
If it's fantasy, I can make it whatever I want right?
Rules have a purpose. Guns vs. Paladins, Dragons and Liches just doesn't jive with me.
Are you catching a virus? *cough* Oh Snap! It's contagious...must be the Zeus!
Guns vs. Paladins, Dragons and Liches just doesn't jive with me.
Then don't use them. But don't tell everyone else not to, either.
Guns vs. Paladins, Dragons and Liches just doesn't jive with me.Then don't use them. But don't tell everyone else not to, either.
You guys completely missed the point of what I was saying...I didn't say not to use...nevermind.
Tired of the conversation...
*cough*
Sick and tired.
Let me know how that whole Death Star thing works out.
Your point seems to be that "Look if you have handguns then EVERYONE HAS LASER WEAPONS AND STARSHIPS.
That's uh, not really a point.
actually i cant remember the name of the module (someone will come up with it) but very early in the 80s there was a module you went through where you got lazer guns.
And I remember a time travel one, where we wer after the mace of St cuthbert but it was in some museum in modern day new york, and we time traveled there and there we modern guns and such and they killed everything and were way better than any DnD weapon blah blah blah.
So its not like this hasnt been done before.
actually i cant remember the name of the module (someone will come up with it) but very early in the 80s there was a module you went through where you got lazer guns.
And I remember a time travel one, where we wer after the mace of St cuthbert but it was in some museum in modern day new york, and we time traveled there and there we modern guns and such and they killed everything and were way better than any DnD weapon blah blah blah.
So its not like this hasnt been done before.
Expedition to the Barrier Peaks?
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Expedition to the Barrier Peaks?actually i cant remember the name of the module (someone will come up with it) but very early in the 80s there was a module you went through where you got lazer guns.
And I remember a time travel one, where we wer after the mace of St cuthbert but it was in some museum in modern day new york, and we time traveled there and there we modern guns and such and they killed everything and were way better than any DnD weapon blah blah blah.
So its not like this hasnt been done before.
Expedition to the Barrier Peaks for the Lasers and the second was from Dragon Mag #100 - "The City Beyond the Gate" - aka London circa 1985
Both had item examination charts to figure out items, something which was a feature of artifact examination in the first three editions of Gamma World.
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Not sure how you can say YUCK to guns in relation to medieval fantasy when u have ninja's and samurai. I think Feudal times had gunpowder, and if you go with Feudal + Medieval u get your samurai, ninja, and guns. It really melds nicely.
I have just finished reading the gunslinger, and I must say my gut reaction is YUCK.
I have just as visceral reaction to finding guns in my “quasi- medieval fantasy game” as many others have to having Psionics in their “quasi- medieval fantasy game”.....
So my initial reaction to the gunslinger is YUCK.
....
Onto the Ninja and Samurai.