These are my final thoughts on the Ninja before I get to see "Round 2" of the Ultimate Combat playtest for these "classes". I feel my voice would be drowned out so started a new thread to share.
First off, I have already pointed out my dislike for the Alternate Class route Paizo seems to be going on the thread in the Playtest forum. So I won't reiterate that here.
I don't have the time or people to get to playtest this for me, but I am experienced at the game enough to know what I am seeing. What I am seeing is a failed compromise. Instead of making it a base class or archetpye, it went to a strange zone in the middle as an alternate class. I like many things about this class, from its class abilities to its ki points and its ninja tricks. Even its 20th-level cap is awesome. What I do not like is it being compared to the Rogue so much. No one compares the Paladin to a Cleric or Fighter, and clearly it is a mix of both. No one compares the Ranger to a Druid, Fighter, and Rogue. Because clearly it is a mix of the 3 with its own uniqueness. I don't understand how the Ninja can't be made into a class that is a mingling of Monk and Rogue without stepping on the shoes of either. All I see is complaints of it being an overdone archetype or being compared to the Rogue class. I feel as if a middle ground is trying to be accomplished, but it's not working.
The simple fact of the matter is, you're going to have to choose to make it a Base Class somehow or make it an archetype, I don't think it's going to work as an alternate class. You end up narrowing what you can do with it.
Also going the way of an alternate class, or even archetype, me and my players will probably never see new rules support for it in future products. Unless Paizo makes it a point to give more goodies to the ones playing the Ninja, Samurai, Antipaladin, (if it becomes an alternate class) Gunslinger then there's no point in playtesting or ever introducing this into my games. It's a sad day to see the core classes get the goodies while the rest are hosed. I hope alternate classes don't go that route.
Personally, I have high hopes of seeing Gunslinger as the new base class for Ultimate Combat and the Samurai is looking great just at first glance and I know it can easily get better. But I fear for the "life" of the Ninja class. I think, to avoid backlash, the archetype route might be taken and I will be sorely disappointed. I might end up just using WotC's Ninja class, which was pretty close to how it should've been save for some lack of optimization, while making it different than the Rogue. But at this point, I don't think I can participate in anymore Ninja discussions until the choice is made, which I believe it will be by Round 2. Then I can see the final cuts and either find myself extremely satsified or extremely disappointed. I was hoping for Paizo to be the first to actually launch a really well written Ninja class (not alternate class, but CLASS!) My suggestions have already been posted elsewhere on what to do with the Ninja class, including here, so take what you will.
In the meantime, I'll meander over to the Gunslinger and Samurai forums, which have more promise as of now.
These are my final thoughts on the Ninja before I get to see "Round 2" of the Ultimate Combat playtest for these "classes". I feel my voice would be drowned out so started a new thread to share.
First off, I have already pointed out my dislike for the Alternate Class route Paizo seems to be going on the thread in the Playtest forum. So I won't reiterate that here.
I don't have the time or people to get to playtest this for me, but I am experienced at the game enough to know what I am seeing. What I am seeing is a failed compromise. Instead of making it a base class or archetpye, it went to a strange zone in the middle as an alternate class. I like many things about this class, from its class abilities to its ki points and its ninja tricks. Even its 20th-level cap is awesome. What I do not like is it being compared to the Rogue so much. No one compares the Paladin to a Cleric or Fighter, and clearly it is a mix of both. No one compares the Ranger to a Druid, Fighter, and Rogue. Because clearly it is a mix of the 3 with its own uniqueness. I don't understand how the Ninja can't be made into a class that is a mingling of Monk and Rogue without stepping on the shoes of either. All I see is complaints of it being an overdone archetype or being compared to the Rogue class. I feel as if a middle ground is trying to be accomplished, but it's not working.
The simple fact of the matter is, you're going to have to choose to make it a Base Class somehow or make it an archetype, I don't think it's going to work as an alternate class. You end up narrowing what you can do with it.
Also going the way of an alternate class, or even archetype, me and my players will probably never see new rules support for it in future products. Unless Paizo makes it a point to give more goodies to the ones playing the Ninja, Samurai, Antipaladin, (if it becomes an alternate class) Gunslinger then there's no point in playtesting or ever introducing this into my games. It's a sad day to see the core classes get the goodies while the...
I could point out that your entire rant went something like this: ME, I, MY, MY GROUP, I WOULD DO IT THIS WAY, ME, YOU SHOULD DO IT THIS WAY OR YOU'RE DUMB, ME, EVERYONE HATES THIS CLASS, Etc... If there are any actual good points to glean from any of this they're lost and drowned in your arrogance and assumption that only you are correct and no one could possibly like the class as is. You make blanket assumptions about future products that may or may not come out and...you know what, I could point all this out but I don't think you'd get it anyway.
That, or he's being careful to use his words in such a manner that he's NOT arrogantly claiming to represent everybody, and presenting his opinion based on his own experiences and views.I could point out that your entire rant went something like this: ME, I, MY, MY GROUP, I WOULD DO IT THIS WAY, ME, YOU SHOULD DO IT THIS WAY OR YOU'RE DUMB, ME, EVERYONE HATES THIS CLASS, Etc... If there are any actual good points to glean from any of this they're lost and drowned in your arrogance and assumption that only you are correct and no one could possibly like the class as is. You make blanket assumptions about future products that may or may not come out and...you know what, I could point all this out but I don't think you'd get it anyway.
Which part? The play testing he hasn't done or the part where he says all he sees are complaints? THat isn't speaking for everyone?
Folks, don't post angry.
I actually agree with the OP. This seems like the opposite of the approach taken by the APG.
Instead of "Here's more options for the classes we already have", this is a whole new class, which is a lot like a bunch of old classes. With some combo of rogue, monk, and possibly alchemist or assassin, I could make myself a decent ninja already.
Ninja does allow for a few neat combos, as far as I've seen...
Ninja/monk could allow for a LOT of shuriken a round
Ninja/sorcerer allows for an alternate entry into arcane trickster, which I personally think is pretty cool.
Aside from that, it seems to be a bunch of options that we don't really need.